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TextoClaro.txt
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thisebookisfortheuseofanyoneanywhereatnocostandwithalmostnorestrictionswhatsoeveryoumaycopyitgiveitawayorreuseitunderthetermsoftheprojectgutenberglicenseincludedwiththisebookoronlineatwwwgutenbergorgtitletherepublicauthorplatostartofthisprojectgutenbergebooktherepublictherepublicbyplatointroductionandanalysistherepublicofplatoisthelongestofhisworkswiththeexceptionofthelawsandiscertainlythegreatestofthemtherearenearerapproachestomodernmetaphysicsinthephilebusandinthesophistthepoliticusorstatesmanismoreidealtheformandinstitutionsofthestatearemoreclearlydrawnoutinthelawsasworksofartthesymposiumandtheprotagorasareofhigherexcellencebutnootherdialogueofplatohasthesamelargenessofviewandthesameperfectionofstylenoothershowsanequalknowledgeoftheworldorcontainsmoreofthosethoughtswhicharenewaswellasoldandnotofoneageonlybutofallnowhereinplatoisthereadeeperironyoragreaterwealthofhumourorimageryormoredramaticpowernorinanyotherofhiswritingsistheattemptmadetointerweavelifeandspeculationortoconnectpoliticswithphilosophytherepublicisthecentrearoundwhichtheotherdialoguesmaybegroupedherephilosophyreachesthehighestpointcpespeciallyinbooksvviviitowhichancientthinkerseverattainedplatoamongthegreekslikebaconamongthemodernswasthefirstwhoconceivedamethodofknowledgealthoughneitherofthemalwaysdistinguishedthebareoutlineorformfromthesubstanceoftruthandbothofthemhadtobecontentwithanabstractionofsciencewhichwasnotyetrealizedhewasthegreatestmetaphysicalgeniuswhomtheworldhasseenandinhimmorethaninanyotherancientthinkerthegermsoffutureknowledgearecontainedthesciencesoflogicandpsychologywhichhavesuppliedsomanyinstrumentsofthoughttoafteragesarebasedupontheanalysesofsocratesandplatotheprinciplesofdefinitionthelawofcontradictionthefallacyofarguinginacirclethedistinctionbetweentheessenceandaccidentsofathingornotionbetweenmeansandendsbetweencausesandconditionsalsothedivisionofthemindintotherationalconcupiscentandirascibleelementsorofpleasuresanddesiresintonecessaryandunnecessarytheseandothergreatformsofthoughtareallofthemtobefoundintherepublicandwereprobablyfirstinventedbyplatothegreatestofalllogicaltruthsandtheoneofwhichwritersonphilosophyaremostapttolosesightthedifferencebetweenwordsandthingshasbeenmoststrenuouslyinsistedonbyhimcpreppolitcratylalthoughhehasnotalwaysavoidedtheconfusionoftheminhisownwritingsegrepbuthedoesnotbinduptruthinlogicalformulaelogicisstillveiledinmetaphysicsandthesciencewhichheimaginestocontemplatealltruthandallexistenceisveryunlikethedoctrineofthesyllogismwhicharistotleclaimstohavediscoveredsophelenchineithermustweforgetthattherepublicisbutthethirdpartofastilllargerdesignwhichwastohaveincludedanidealhistoryofathensaswellasapoliticalandphysicalphilosophythefragmentofthecritiashasgivenbirthtoaworldfamousfictionsecondonlyinimportancetothetaleoftroyandthelegendofarthurandissaidasafacttohaveinspiredsomeoftheearlynavigatorsofthesixteenthcenturythismythicaltaleofwhichthesubjectwasahistoryofthewarsoftheatheniansagainsttheislandofatlantisissupposedtobefoundeduponanunfinishedpoemofsolontowhichitwouldhavestoodinthesamerelationasthewritingsofthelogographerstothepoemsofhomeritwouldhavetoldofastruggleforlibertycptimintendedtorepresenttheconflictofpersiaandhellaswemayjudgefromthenoblecommencementofthetimaeusfromthefragmentofthecritiasitselfandfromthethirdbookofthelawsinwhatmannerplatowouldhavetreatedthishighargumentwecanonlyguesswhythegreatdesignwasabandonedperhapsbecauseplatobecamesensibleofsomeincongruityinafictitioushistoryorbecausehehadlosthisinterestinitorbecauseadvancingyearsforbadethecompletionofitandwemaypleaseourselveswiththefancythathadthisimaginarynarrativeeverbeenfinishedweshouldhavefoundplatohimselfsympathisingwiththestruggleforhellenicindependencecplawssingingahymnoftriumphovermarathonandsalamisperhapsmakingthereflectionofherodotuswherehecontemplatesthegrowthoftheathenianempirehowbraveathingisfreedomofspeechwhichhasmadetheathenianssofarexceedeveryotherstateofhellasingreatnessormoreprobablyattributingthevictorytotheancientgoodorderofathensandtothefavorofapolloandathenecpintrodtocritiasagainplatomayberegardedasthecaptainarhchegozorleaderofagoodlybandoffollowersforintherepublicistobefoundtheoriginalofcicerosderepublicaofstaugustinescityofgodoftheutopiaofsirthomasmoreandofthenumerousotherimaginarystateswhichareframeduponthesamemodeltheextenttowhicharistotleorthearistotelianschoolwereindebtedtohiminthepoliticshasbeenlittlerecognisedandtherecognitionisthemorenecessarybecauseitisnotmadebyaristotlehimselfthetwophilosophershadmoreincommonthantheywereconsciousofandprobablysomeelementsofplatoremainstillundetectedinaristotleinenglishphilosophytoomanyaffinitiesmaybetracednotonlyintheworksofthecambridgeplatonistsbutingreatoriginalwriterslikeberkeleyorcoleridgetoplatoandhisideasthatthereisatruthhigherthanexperienceofwhichthemindbearswitnesstoherselfisaconvictionwhichinourowngenerationhasbeenenthusiasticallyassertedandisperhapsgaininggroundofthegreekauthorswhoattherenaissancebroughtanewlifeintotheworldplatohashadthegreatestinfluencetherepublicofplatoisalsothefirsttreatiseuponeducationofwhichthewritingsofmiltonandlockerousseaujeanpaulandgoethearethelegitimatedescendantslikedanteorbunyanhehasarevelationofanotherlifelikebaconheisprofoundlyimpressedwiththeunityofknowledgeintheearlychurchheexercisedarealinfluenceontheologyandattherevivalofliteratureonpoliticseventhefragmentsofhiswordswhenrepeatedatsecondhandsymphaveinallagesravishedtheheartsofmenwhohaveseenreflectedinthemtheirownhighernatureheisthefatherofidealisminphilosophyinpoliticsinliteratureandmanyofthelatestconceptionsofmodernthinkersandstatesmensuchastheunityofknowledgethereignoflawandtheequalityofthesexeshavebeenanticipatedinadreambyhimtheargumentoftherepublicisthesearchafterjusticethenatureofwhichisfirsthintedatbycephalusthejustandblamelessoldmanthendiscussedonthebasisofproverbialmoralitybysocratesandpolemarchusthencaricaturedbythrasymachusandpartiallyexplainedbysocratesreducedtoanabstractionbyglauconandadeimantusandhavingbecomeinvisibleintheindividualreappearsatlengthintheidealstatewhichisconstructedbysocratesthefirstcareoftherulersistobeeducationofwhichanoutlineisdrawnaftertheoldhellenicmodelprovidingonlyforanimprovedreligionandmoralityandmoresimplicityinmusicandgymnasticamanlierstrainofpoetryandgreaterharmonyoftheindividualandthestatewearethusledontotheconceptionofahigherstateinwhichnomancallsanythinghisownandinwhichthereisneithermarryingnorgivinginmarriageandkingsarephilosophersandphilosophersarekingsandthereisanotherandhighereducationintellectualaswellasmoralandreligiousofscienceaswellasofartandnotofyouthonlybutofthewholeoflifesuchastateishardlytoberealizedinthisworldandquicklydegeneratestotheperfectidealsucceedsthegovernmentofthesoldierandtheloverofhonourthisagaindecliningintodemocracyanddemocracyintotyrannyinanimaginarybutregularorderhavingnotmuchresemblancetotheactualfactswhenthewheelhascomefullcirclewedonotbeginagainwithanewperiodofhumanlifebutwehavepassedfromthebesttotheworstandthereweendthesubjectisthenchangedandtheoldquarrelofpoetryandphilosophywhichhadbeenmorelightlytreatedintheearlierbooksoftherepublicisnowresumedandfoughtouttoaconclusionpoetryisdiscoveredtobeanimitationthriceremovedfromthetruthandhomeraswellasthedramaticpoetshavingbeencondemnedasanimitatorissentintobanishmentalongwiththemandtheideaofthestateissupplementedbytherevelationofafuturelifethedivisionintobookslikeallsimilardivisionscpsirgclewisintheclassicalmuseumisprobablylaterthantheageofplatothenaturaldivisionsarefiveinnumberbookiandthefirsthalfofbookiidowntotheparagraphbeginningihadalwaysadmiredthegeniusofglauconandadeimantuswhichisintroductorythefirstbookcontainingarefutationofthepopularandsophisticalnotionsofjusticeandconcludinglikesomeoftheearlierdialogueswithoutarrivingatanydefiniteresulttothisisappendedarestatementofthenatureofjusticeaccordingtocommonopinionandananswerisdemandedtothequestionwhatisjusticestrippedofappearancestheseconddivisionincludestheremainderofthesecondandthewholeofthethirdandfourthbookswhicharemainlyoccupiedwiththeconstructionofthefirststateandthefirsteducationthethirddivisionconsistsofthefifthsixthandseventhbooksinwhichphilosophyratherthanjusticeisthesubjectofenquiryandthesecondstateisconstructedonprinciplesofcommunismandruledbyphilosophersandthecontemplationoftheideaofgoodtakestheplaceofthesocialandpoliticalvirtuesintheeighthandninthbookstheperversionsofstatesandoftheindividualswhocorrespondtothemarereviewedinsuccessionandthenatureofpleasureandtheprincipleoftyrannyarefurtheranalysedintheindividualmanthetenthbookistheconclusionofthewholeinwhichtherelationsofphilosophytopoetryarefinallydeterminedandthehappinessofthecitizensinthislifewhichhasnowbeenassurediscrownedbythevisionofanotheroramoregeneraldivisionintotwopartsmaybeadoptedthefirstbooksiivcontainingthedescriptionofastateframedgenerallyinaccordancewithhellenicnotionsofreligionandmoralitywhileinthesecondbooksvxthehellenicstateistransformedintoanidealkingdomofphilosophyofwhichallothergovernmentsaretheperversionsthesetwopointsofviewarereallyopposedandtheoppositionisonlyveiledbythegeniusofplatotherepubliclikethephaedrusseeintroductiontophaedrusisanimperfectwholethehigherlightofphilosophybreaksthroughtheregularityofthehellenictemplewhichatlastfadesawayintotheheavenswhetherthisimperfectionofstructurearisesfromanenlargementoftheplanorfromtheimperfectreconcilementinthewritersownmindofthestrugglingelementsofthoughtwhicharenowfirstbroughttogetherbyhimorperhapsfromthecompositionoftheworkatdifferenttimesarequestionslikethesimilarquestionabouttheiliadandtheodysseywhichareworthaskingbutwhichcannothaveadistinctanswerintheageofplatotherewasnoregularmodeofpublicationandanauthorwouldhavethelessscrupleinalteringoraddingtoaworkwhichwasknownonlytoafewofhisfriendsthereisnoabsurdityinsupposingthathemayhavelaidhislaboursasideforatimeorturnedfromoneworktoanotherandsuchinterruptionswouldbemorelikelytooccurinthecaseofalongthanofashortwritinginallattemptstodeterminethechronologicalorderoftheplatonicwritingsoninternalevidencethisuncertaintyaboutanysingledialoguebeingcomposedatonetimeisadisturbingelementwhichmustbeadmittedtoaffectlongerworkssuchastherepublicandthelawsmorethanshorteronesbutontheotherhandtheseemingdiscrepanciesoftherepublicmayonlyariseoutofthediscordantelementswhichthephilosopherhasattemptedtouniteinasinglewholeperhapswithoutbeinghimselfabletorecognisetheinconsistencywhichisobvioustousforthereisajudgmentofafterageswhichfewgreatwritershaveeverbeenabletoanticipateforthemselvestheydonotperceivethewantofconnexionintheirownwritingsorthegapsintheirsystemswhicharevisibleenoughtothosewhocomeaftertheminthebeginningsofliteratureandphilosophyamidthefirsteffortsofthoughtandlanguagemoreinconsistenciesoccurthannowwhenthepathsofspeculationarewellwornandthemeaningofwordspreciselydefinedforconsistencytooisthegrowthoftimeandsomeofthegreatestcreationsofthehumanmindhavebeenwantinginunitytriedbythistestseveraloftheplatonicdialoguesaccordingtoourmodernideasappeartobedefectivebutthedeficiencyisnoproofthattheywerecomposedatdifferenttimesorbydifferenthandsandthesuppositionthattherepublicwaswrittenuninterruptedlyandbyacontinuouseffortisinsomedegreeconfirmedbythenumerousreferencesfromonepartoftheworktoanotherthesecondtitleconcerningjusticeisnottheonebywhichtherepublicisquotedeitherbyaristotleorgenerallyinantiquityandliketheothersecondtitlesoftheplatonicdialoguesmaythereforebeassumedtobeoflaterdatemorgensternandothershaveaskedwhetherthedefinitionofjusticewhichistheprofessedaimortheconstructionofthestateistheprincipalargumentoftheworktheansweristhatthetwoblendinoneandaretwofacesofthesametruthforjusticeistheorderofthestateandthestateisthevisibleembodimentofjusticeundertheconditionsofhumansocietytheoneisthesoulandtheotheristhebodyandthegreekidealofthestateasoftheindividualisafairmindinafairbodyinhegelianphraseologythestateistherealityofwhichjusticeistheideaordescribedinchristianlanguagethekingdomofgodiswithinandyetdevelopesintoachurchorexternalkingdomthehousenotmadewithhandseternalintheheavensisreducedtotheproportionsofanearthlybuildingortouseaplatonicimagejusticeandthestatearethewarpandthewoofwhichrunthroughthewholetextureandwhentheconstitutionofthestateiscompletedtheconceptionofjusticeisnotdismissedbutreappearsunderthesameordifferentnamesthroughouttheworkbothastheinnerlawoftheindividualsoulandfinallyastheprincipleofrewardsandpunishmentsinanotherlifethevirtuesarebasedonjusticeofwhichcommonhonestyinbuyingandsellingistheshadowandjusticeisbasedontheideaofgoodwhichistheharmonyoftheworldandisreflectedbothintheinstitutionsofstatesandinmotionsoftheheavenlybodiescptimthetimaeuswhichtakesupthepoliticalratherthantheethicalsideoftherepublicandischieflyoccupiedwithhypothesesconcerningtheoutwardworldyetcontainsmanyindicationsthatthesamelawissupposedtoreignoverthestateovernatureandovermantoomuchhoweverhasbeenmadeofthisquestionbothinancientandmoderntimesthereisastageofcriticisminwhichallworkswhetherofnatureorofartarereferredtodesignnowinancientwritingsandindeedinliteraturegenerallythereremainsoftenalargeelementwhichwasnotcomprehendedintheoriginaldesignfortheplangrowsundertheauthorshandnewthoughtsoccurtohimintheactofwritinghehasnotworkedouttheargumenttotheendbeforehebeginsthereaderwhoseekstofindsomeoneideaunderwhichthewholemaybeconceivedmustnecessarilyseizeonthevaguestandmostgeneralthusstallbaumwhoisdissatisfiedwiththeordinaryexplanationsoftheargumentoftherepublicimagineshimselftohavefoundthetrueargumentintherepresentationofhumanlifeinastateperfectedbyjusticeandgovernedaccordingtotheideaofgoodtheremaybesomeuseinsuchgeneraldescriptionsbuttheycanhardlybesaidtoexpressthedesignofthewriterthetruthisthatwemayaswellspeakofmanydesignsasofonenorneedanythingbeexcludedfromtheplanofagreatworktowhichthemindisnaturallyledbytheassociationofideasandwhichdoesnotinterferewiththegeneralpurposewhatkindordegreeofunityistobesoughtafterinabuildingintheplasticartsinpoetryinproseisaproblemwhichhastobedeterminedrelativelytothesubjectmattertoplatohimselftheenquirywhatwastheintentionofthewriterorwhatwastheprincipalargumentoftherepublicwouldhavebeenhardlyintelligibleandthereforehadbetterbeatoncedismissedcptheintroductiontothephaedrusisnottherepublicthevehicleofthreeorfourgreattruthswhichtoplatosownmindaremostnaturallyrepresentedintheformofthestatejustasinthejewishprophetsthereignofmessiahorthedayofthelordorthesufferingservantorpeopleofgodorthesunofrighteousnesswithhealinginhiswingsonlyconveytousatleasttheirgreatspiritualidealssothroughthegreekstateplatorevealstoushisownthoughtsaboutdivineperfectionwhichistheideaofgoodlikethesuninthevisibleworldabouthumanperfectionwhichisjusticeabouteducationbeginninginyouthandcontinuinginlateryearsaboutpoetsandsophistsandtyrantswhoarethefalseteachersandevilrulersofmankindabouttheworldwhichistheembodimentofthemaboutakingdomwhichexistsnowhereuponearthbutislaidupinheaventobethepatternandruleofhumanlifenosuchinspiredcreationisatunitywithitselfanymorethanthecloudsofheavenwhenthesunpiercesthroughthemeveryshadeoflightanddarkoftruthandoffictionwhichistheveiloftruthisallowableinaworkofphilosophicalimaginationitisnotallonthesameplaneiteasilypassesfromideastomythsandfanciesfromfactstofiguresofspeechitisnotprosebutpoetryatleastagreatpartofitandoughtnottobejudgedbytherulesoflogicortheprobabilitiesofhistorythewriterisnotfashioninghisideasintoanartisticwholetheytakepossessionofhimandaretoomuchforhimwehavenoneedthereforetodiscusswhetherastatesuchasplatohasconceivedispracticableornotorwhethertheoutwardformortheinwardlifecamefirstintothemindofthewriterforthepracticabilityofhisideashasnothingtodowiththeirtruthandthehighestthoughtstowhichheattainsmaybetrulysaidtobearthegreatestmarksofdesignjusticemorethantheexternalframeworkofthestatetheideaofgoodmorethanjusticethegreatscienceofdialecticortheorganisationofideashasnorealcontentbutisonlyatypeofthemethodorspiritinwhichthehigherknowledgeistobepursuedbythespectatorofalltimeandallexistenceitisinthefifthsixthandseventhbooksthatplatoreachesthesummitofspeculationandthesealthoughtheyfailtosatisfytherequirementsofamodernthinkermaythereforeberegardedasthemostimportantastheyarealsothemostoriginalportionsoftheworkitisnotnecessarytodiscussatlengthaminorquestionwhichhasbeenraisedbyboeckhrespectingtheimaginarydateatwhichtheconversationwasheldtheyearbcwhichisproposedbyhimwilldoaswellasanyotherforawriteroffictionandespeciallyawriterwholikeplatoisnotoriouslycarelessofchronologycprepsympetconlyaimsatgeneralprobabilitywhetherallthepersonsmentionedintherepubliccouldeverhavemetatanyonetimeisnotadifficultywhichwouldhaveoccurredtoanathenianreadingtheworkfortyyearslaterortoplatohimselfatthetimeofwritinganymorethantoshakespearerespectingoneofhisowndramasandneednotgreatlytroubleusnowyetthismaybeaquestionhavingnoanswerwhichisstillworthaskingbecausetheinvestigationshowsthatwecannotarguehistoricallyfromthedatesinplatoitwouldbeuselessthereforetowastetimeininventingfarfetchedreconcilementsoftheminordertoavoidchronologicaldifficultiessuchforexampleastheconjectureofcfhermannthatglauconandadeimantusarenotthebrothersbuttheunclesofplatocpapolorthefancyofstallbaumthatplatointentionallyleftanachronismsindicatingthedatesatwhichsomeofhisdialogueswerewrittentheprincipalcharactersintherepublicarecephaluspolemarchusthrasymachussocratesglauconandadeimantuscephalusappearsintheintroductiononlypolemarchusdropsattheendofthefirstargumentandthrasymachusisreducedtosilenceatthecloseofthefirstbookthemaindiscussioniscarriedonbysocratesglauconandadeimantusamongthecompanyarelysiastheoratorandeuthydemusthesonsofcephalusandbrothersofpolemarchusanunknowncharmantidesthesearemuteauditorsalsothereiscleitophonwhoonceinterruptswhereasinthedialoguewhichbearshisnameheappearsasthefriendandallyofthrasymachuscephalusthepatriarchofthehousehasbeenappropriatelyengagedinofferingasacrificeheisthepatternofanoldmanwhohasalmostdonewithlifeandisatpeacewithhimselfandwithallmankindhefeelsthatheisdrawingnearertotheworldbelowandseemstolingeraroundthememoryofthepastheiseagerthatsocratesshouldcometovisithimfondofthepoetryofthelastgenerationhappyintheconsciousnessofawellspentlifegladathavingescapedfromthetyrannyofyouthfullustshisloveofconversationhisaffectionhisindifferencetorichesevenhisgarrulityareinterestingtraitsofcharacterheisnotoneofthosewhohavenothingtosaybecausetheirwholemindhasbeenabsorbedinmakingmoneyyetheacknowledgesthatricheshavetheadvantageofplacingmenabovethetemptationtodishonestyorfalsehoodtherespectfulattentionshowntohimbysocrateswhoseloveofconversationnolessthanthemissionimposeduponhimbytheoracleleadshimtoaskquestionsofallmenyoungandoldalikeshouldalsobenotedwhobettersuitedtoraisethequestionofjusticethancephaluswhoselifemightseemtobetheexpressionofitthemoderationwithwhicholdageispicturedbycephalusasaverytolerableportionofexistenceischaracteristicnotonlyofhimbutofgreekfeelinggenerallyandcontrastswiththeexaggerationofcicerointhedesenectutetheeveningoflifeisdescribedbyplatointhemostexpressivemanneryetwiththefewestpossibletouchesasciceroremarksepadattictheagedcephaluswouldhavebeenoutofplaceinthediscussionwhichfollowsandwhichhecouldneitherhaveunderstoodnortakenpartinwithoutaviolationofdramaticproprietycplysimachusinthelacheshissonandheirpolemarchushasthefranknessandimpetuousnessofyouthheisfordetainingsocratesbyforceintheopeningsceneandwillnotlethimoffonthesubjectofwomenandchildrenlikecephalusheislimitedinhispointofviewandrepresentstheproverbialstageofmoralitywhichhasrulesofliferatherthanprinciplesandhequotessimonidescparistophcloudsashisfatherhadquotedpindarbutafterthishehasnomoretosaytheanswerswhichhemakesareonlyelicitedfromhimbythedialecticofsocrateshehasnotyetexperiencedtheinfluenceofthesophistslikeglauconandadeimantusnorishesensibleofthenecessityofrefutingthemhebelongstothepresocraticorpredialecticalageheisincapableofarguingandisbewilderedbysocratestosuchadegreethathedoesnotknowwhatheissayingheismadetoadmitthatjusticeisathiefandthatthevirtuesfollowtheanalogyoftheartsfromhisbrotherlysiascontraeratosthwelearnthathefellavictimtothethirtytyrantsbutnoallusionisheremadetohisfatenortothecircumstancethatcephalusandhisfamilywereofsyracusanoriginandhadmigratedfromthuriitoathensthechalcedoniangiantthrasymachusofwhomwehavealreadyheardinthephaedrusisthepersonificationofthesophistsaccordingtoplatosconceptionoftheminsomeoftheirworstcharacteristicsheisvainandblusteringrefusingtodiscourseunlessheispaidfondofmakinganorationandhopingtherebytoescapetheinevitablesocratesbutamerechildinargumentandunabletoforeseethatthenextmovetouseaplatonicexpressionwillshuthimuphehasreachedthestageofframinggeneralnotionsandinthisrespectisinadvanceofcephalusandpolemarchusbutheisincapableofdefendingtheminadiscussionandvainlytriestocoverhisconfusionwithbanterandinsolencewhethersuchdoctrinesasareattributedtohimbyplatowerereallyheldeitherbyhimorbyanyothersophistisuncertainintheinfancyofphilosophyseriouserrorsaboutmoralitymighteasilygrowuptheyarecertainlyputintothemouthsofspeakersinthucydidesbutweareconcernedatpresentwithplatosdescriptionofhimandnotwiththehistoricalrealitytheinequalityofthecontestaddsgreatlytothehumourofthescenethepompousandemptysophistisutterlyhelplessinthehandsofthegreatmasterofdialecticwhoknowshowtotouchallthespringsofvanityandweaknessinhimheisgreatlyirritatedbytheironyofsocratesbuthisnoisyandimbecilerageonlylayshimmoreandmoreopentothethrustsofhisassailanthisdeterminationtocramdowntheirthroatsorputbodilyintotheirsoulshisownwordselicitsacryofhorrorfromsocratesthestateofhistemperisquiteasworthyofremarkastheprocessoftheargumentnothingismoreamusingthanhiscompletesubmissionwhenhehasbeenoncethoroughlybeatenatfirstheseemstocontinuethediscussionwithreluctancebutsoonwithapparentgoodwillandheeventestifieshisinterestatalaterstagebyoneortwooccasionalremarkswhenattackedbyglauconheishumorouslyprotectedbysocratesasonewhohasneverbeenhisenemyandisnowhisfriendfromciceroandquintilianandfromaristotlesrhetoricwelearnthatthesophistwhomplatohasmadesoridiculouswasamanofnotewhosewritingswerepreservedinlateragestheplayonhisnamewhichwasmadebyhiscontemporaryherodicusarisrhetthouwasteverboldinbattleseemstoshowthatthedescriptionofhimisnotdevoidofverisimilitudewhenthrasymachushasbeensilencedthetwoprincipalrespondentsglauconandadeimantusappearonthescenehereasingreektragedycpintrodtophaedothreeactorsareintroducedatfirstsightthetwosonsofaristonmayseemtowearafamilylikenesslikethetwofriendssimmiasandcebesinthephaedobutonanearerexaminationofthemthesimilarityvanishesandtheyareseentobedistinctcharactersglauconistheimpetuousyouthwhocanjustneverhaveenoughoffechtingcpthecharacterofhiminxenmemiiithemanofpleasurewhoisacquaintedwiththemysteriesoflovethejuvenisquigaudetcanibusandwhoimprovesthebreedofanimalstheloverofartandmusicwhohasalltheexperiencesofyouthfullifeheisfullofquicknessandpenetrationpiercingeasilybelowtheclumsyplatitudesofthrasymachustotherealdifficultyheturnsouttothelighttheseamysideofhumanlifeandyetdoesnotlosefaithinthejustandtrueitisglauconwhoseizeswhatmaybetermedtheludicrousrelationofthephilosophertotheworldtowhomastateofsimplicityisacityofpigswhoisalwayspreparedwithajestwhentheargumentoffershimanopportunityandwhoiseverreadytosecondthehumourofsocratesandtoappreciatetheridiculouswhetherintheconnoisseursofmusicorintheloversoftheatricalsorinthefantasticbehaviourofthecitizensofdemocracyhisweaknessesareseveraltimesalludedtobysocrateswhohoweverwillnotallowhimtobeattackedbyhisbrotheradeimantusheisasoldierandlikeadeimantushasbeendistinguishedatthebattleofmegaraannothecharacterofadeimantusisdeeperandgraverandtheprofounderobjectionsarecommonlyputintohismouthglauconismoredemonstrativeandgenerallyopensthegameadeimantuspursuestheargumentfurtherglauconhasmoreofthelivelinessandquicksympathyofyouthadeimantushasthematurerjudgmentofagrownupmanoftheworldinthesecondbookwhenglauconinsiststhatjusticeandinjusticeshallbeconsideredwithoutregardtotheirconsequencesadeimantusremarksthattheyareregardedbymankindingeneralonlyforthesakeoftheirconsequencesandinasimilarveinofreflectionheurgesatthebeginningofthefourthbookthatsocratesfailsinmakinghiscitizenshappyandisansweredthathappinessisnotthefirstbutthesecondthingnotthedirectaimbuttheindirectconsequenceofthegoodgovernmentofastateinthediscussionaboutreligionandmythologyadeimantusistherespondentbutglauconbreaksinwithaslightjestandcarriesontheconversationinalightertoneaboutmusicandgymnastictotheendofthebookitisadeimantusagainwhovolunteersthecriticismofcommonsenseonthesocraticmethodofargumentandwhorefusestoletsocratespasslightlyoverthequestionofwomenandchildrenitisadeimantuswhoistherespondentinthemoreargumentativeasglauconinthelighterandmoreimaginativeportionsofthedialogueforexamplethroughoutthegreaterpartofthesixthbookthecausesofthecorruptionofphilosophyandtheconceptionoftheideaofgoodarediscussedwithadeimantusglauconresumeshisplaceofprincipalrespondentbuthehasadifficultyinapprehendingthehighereducationofsocratesandmakessomefalsehitsinthecourseofthediscussiononcemoreadeimantusreturnswiththeallusiontohisbrotherglauconwhomhecomparestothecontentiousstateinthenextbookheisagainsupersededandglauconcontinuestotheendthusinasuccessionofcharactersplatorepresentsthesuccessivestagesofmoralitybeginningwiththeatheniangentlemanoftheoldentimewhoisfollowedbythepracticalmanofthatdayregulatinghislifebyproverbsandsawstohimsucceedsthewildgeneralizationofthesophistsandlastlycometheyoungdisciplesofthegreatteacherwhoknowthesophisticalargumentsbutwillnotbeconvincedbythemanddesiretogodeeperintothenatureofthingsthesetoolikecephaluspolemarchusthrasymachusareclearlydistinguishedfromoneanotherneitherintherepublicnorinanyotherdialogueofplatoisasinglecharacterrepeatedthedelineationofsocratesintherepublicisnotwhollyconsistentinthefirstbookwehavemoreoftherealsocratessuchasheisdepictedinthememorabiliaofxenophonintheearliestdialoguesofplatoandintheapologyheisironicalprovokingquestioningtheoldenemyofthesophistsreadytoputonthemaskofsilenusaswellastoargueseriouslybutinthesixthbookhisenmitytowardsthesophistsabatesheacknowledgesthattheyaretherepresentativesratherthanthecorruptersoftheworldhealsobecomesmoredogmaticandconstructivepassingbeyondtherangeeitherofthepoliticalorthespeculativeideasoftherealsocratesinonepassageplatohimselfseemstointimatethatthetimehadnowcomeforsocrateswhohadpassedhiswholelifeinphilosophytogivehisownopinionandnottobealwaysrepeatingthenotionsofothermenthereisnoevidencethateithertheideaofgoodortheconceptionofaperfectstatewerecomprehendedinthesocraticteachingthoughhecertainlydweltonthenatureoftheuniversalandoffinalcausescpxenmemphaedoandadeepthinkerlikehiminhisthirtyorfortyyearsofpublicteachingcouldhardlyhavefailedtotouchonthenatureoffamilyrelationsforwhichthereisalsosomepositiveevidenceinthememorabiliamemthesocraticmethodisnominallyretainedandeveryinferenceiseitherputintothemouthoftherespondentorrepresentedasthecommondiscoveryofhimandsocratesbutanyonecanseethatthisisamereformofwhichtheaffectationgrowswearisomeastheworkadvancesthemethodofenquiryhaspassedintoamethodofteachinginwhichbythehelpofinterlocutorsthesamethesisislookedatfromvariouspointsofviewthenatureoftheprocessistrulycharacterizedbyglauconwhenhedescribeshimselfasacompanionwhoisnotgoodformuchinaninvestigationbutcanseewhatheisshownandmayperhapsgivetheanswertoaquestionmorefluentlythananotherneithercanwebeabsolutelycertainthatsocrateshimselftaughttheimmortalityofthesoulwhichisunknowntohisdiscipleglauconintherepubliccpapolnoristhereanyreasontosupposethatheusedmythsorrevelationsofanotherworldasavehicleofinstructionorthathewouldhavebanishedpoetryorhavedenouncedthegreekmythologyhisfavoriteoathisretainedandaslightmentionismadeofthedaemoniumorinternalsignwhichisalludedtobysocratesasaphenomenonpeculiartohimselfarealelementofsocraticteachingwhichismoreprominentintherepublicthaninanyoftheotherdialoguesofplatoistheuseofexampleandillustrationgreekletusapplythetestofcommoninstancesyousaysadeimantusironicallyinthesixthbookaresounaccustomedtospeakinimagesandthisuseofexamplesorimagesthoughtrulysocraticinoriginisenlargedbythegeniusofplatointotheformofanallegoryorparablewhichembodiesintheconcretewhathasbeenalreadydescribedorisabouttobedescribedintheabstractthusthefigureofthecaveinbookviiisarecapitulationofthedivisionsofknowledgeinbookvithecompositeanimalinbookixisanallegoryofthepartsofthesoulthenoblecaptainandtheshipandthetruepilotinbookviareafigureoftherelationofthepeopletothephilosophersinthestatewhichhasbeendescribedotherfiguressuchasthedogorthemarriageoftheportionlessmaidenorthedronesandwaspsintheeighthandninthbooksalsoformlinksofconnexioninlongpassagesorareusedtorecallpreviousdiscussionsplatoismosttruetothecharacterofhismasterwhenhedescribeshimasnotofthisworldandwiththisrepresentationofhimtheidealstateandtheotherparadoxesoftherepublicarequiteinaccordancethoughtheycannotbeshowntohavebeenspeculationsofsocratestohimastoothergreatteachersbothphilosophicalandreligiouswhentheylookedupwardtheworldseemedtobetheembodimentoferrorandevilthecommonsenseofmankindhasrevoltedagainstthisvieworhasonlypartiallyadmitteditandeveninsocrateshimselfthesternerjudgementofthemultitudeattimespassesintoasortofironicalpityorlovemeningeneralareincapableofphilosophyandarethereforeatenmitywiththephilosopherbuttheirmisunderstandingofhimisunavoidablefortheyhaveneverseenhimashetrulyisinhisownimagetheyareonlyacquaintedwithartificialsystemspossessingnonativeforceoftruthwordswhichadmitofmanyapplicationstheirleadershavenothingtomeasurewithandarethereforeignorantoftheirownstaturebuttheyaretobepitiedorlaughedatnottobequarrelledwiththeymeanwellwiththeirnostrumsiftheycouldonlylearnthattheyarecuttingoffahydrasheadthismoderationtowardsthosewhoareinerrorisoneofthemostcharacteristicfeaturesofsocratesintherepublicinallthedifferentrepresentationsofsocrateswhetherofxenophonorplatoandamidthedifferencesoftheearlierorlaterdialogueshealwaysretainsthecharacteroftheunweariedanddisinterestedseekeraftertruthwithoutwhichhewouldhaveceasedtobesocratesleavingthecharacterswemaynowanalysethecontentsoftherepublicandthenproceedtoconsiderthegeneralaspectsofthishellenicidealofthestatethemodernlightsinwhichthethoughtsofplatomaybereadbookitherepublicopenswithatrulygreeksceneafestivalinhonourofthegoddessbendiswhichisheldinthepiraeustothisisaddedthepromiseofanequestriantorchraceintheeveningthewholeworkissupposedtoberecitedbysocratesonthedayafterthefestivaltoasmallpartyconsistingofcritiastimaeushermocratesandanotherthiswelearnfromthefirstwordsofthetimaeuswhentherhetoricaladvantageofrecitingthedialoguehasbeengainedtheattentionisnotdistractedbyanyreferencetotheaudiencenoristhereaderfurtherremindedoftheextraordinarylengthofthenarrativeofthenumerouscompanythreeonlytakeanyseriouspartinthediscussionnorareweinformedwhetherintheeveningtheywenttothetorchraceortalkedasinthesymposiumthroughthenightthemannerinwhichtheconversationhasarisenisdescribedasfollowssocratesandhiscompanionglauconareabouttoleavethefestivalwhentheyaredetainedbyamessagefrompolemarchuswhospeedilyappearsaccompaniedbyadeimantusthebrotherofglauconandwithplayfulviolencecompelsthemtoremainpromisingthemnotonlythetorchracebutthepleasureofconversationwiththeyoungwhichtosocratesisafargreaterattractiontheyreturntothehouseofcephaluspolemarchusfathernowinextremeoldagewhoisfoundsittinguponacushionedseatcrownedforasacrificeyoushouldcometomeoftenersocratesforiamtoooldtogotoyouandatmytimeoflifehavinglostotherpleasuresicarethemoreforconversationsocratesaskshimwhathethinksofagetowhichtheoldmanrepliesthatthesorrowsanddiscontentsofagearetobeattributedtothetempersofmenandthatageisatimeofpeaceinwhichthetyrannyofthepassionsisnolongerfeltyesrepliessocratesbuttheworldwillsaycephalusthatyouarehappyinoldagebecauseyouarerichandthereissomethinginwhattheysaysocratesbutnotsomuchastheyimagineasthemistoclesrepliedtotheseriphianneitheryouifyouhadbeenanatheniannoriifihadbeenaseriphianwouldeverhavebeenfamousimightinlikemannerreplytoyouneitheragoodpoormancanbehappyinagenoryetabadrichmansocratesremarksthatcephalusappearsnottocareaboutrichesaqualitywhichheascribestohishavinginheritednotacquiredthemandwouldliketoknowwhatheconsiderstobethechiefadvantageofthemcephalusanswersthatwhenyouareoldthebeliefintheworldbelowgrowsuponyouandthentohavedonejusticeandnevertohavebeencompelledtodoinjusticethroughpovertyandnevertohavedeceivedanyonearefelttobeunspeakableblessingssocrateswhoisevidentlypreparingforanargumentnextaskswhatisthemeaningofthewordjusticetotellthetruthandpayyourdebtsnomorethanthisormustweadmitexceptionsoughtiforexampletoputbackintothehandsofmyfriendwhohasgonemadtheswordwhichiborrowedofhimwhenhewasinhisrightmindtheremustbeexceptionsandyetsayspolemarchusthedefinitionwhichhasbeengivenhastheauthorityofsimonidesherecephalusretirestolookafterthesacrificesandbequeathsassocratesfacetiouslyremarksthepossessionoftheargumenttohisheirpolemarchusthedescriptionofoldageisfinishedandplatoashismannerishastouchedthekeynoteofthewholeworkinaskingforthedefinitionofjusticefirstsuggestingthequestionwhichglauconafterwardspursuesrespectingexternalgoodsandpreparingfortheconcludingmythusoftheworldbelowintheslightallusionofcephalustheportraitofthejustmanisanaturalfrontispieceorintroductiontothelongdiscoursewhichfollowsandmayperhapsimplythatinallourperplexityaboutthenatureofjusticethereisnodifficultyindiscerningwhoisajustmanthefirstexplanationhasbeensupportedbyasayingofsimonidesandnowsocrateshasamindtoshowthattheresolutionofjusticeintotwounconnectedpreceptswhichhavenocommonprinciplefailstosatisfythedemandsofdialecticheproceedswhatdidsimonidesmeanbythissayingofhisdidhemeanthatiwastogivebackarmstoamadmannonotinthatcasenotifthepartiesarefriendsandevilwouldresulthemeantthatyouweretodowhatwaspropergoodtofriendsandharmtoenemieseveryactdoessomethingtosomebodyandfollowingthisanalogysocratesaskswhatisthisdueandproperthingwhichjusticedoesandtowhomheisansweredthatjusticedoesgoodtofriendsandharmtoenemiesbutinwhatwaygoodorharminmakingallianceswiththeoneandgoingtowarwiththeotherthenintimeofpeacewhatisthegoodofjusticetheansweristhatjusticeisofuseincontractsandcontractsaremoneypartnershipsyesbuthowinsuchpartnershipsisthejustmanofmoreusethananyothermanwhenyouwanttohavemoneysafelykeptandnotusedthenjusticewillbeusefulwhenmoneyisuselessandthereisanotherdifficultyjusticeliketheartofwaroranyotherartmustbeofoppositesgoodatattackaswellasatdefenceatstealingaswellasatguardingbutthenjusticeisathiefthoughaheronotwithstandinglikeautolycusthehomericherowhowasexcellentaboveallmenintheftandperjurytosuchapasshaveyouandhomerandsimonidesbroughtusthoughidonotforgetthatthethievingmustbeforthegoodoffriendsandtheharmofenemiesandstilltherearisesanotherquestionarefriendstobeinterpretedasrealorseemingenemiesasrealorseemingandareourfriendstobeonlythegoodandourenemiestobetheeviltheansweristhatwemustdogoodtoourseemingandrealgoodfriendsandeviltoourseemingandrealevilenemiesgoodtothegoodeviltotheevilbutoughtwetorenderevilforevilatallwhentodosowillonlymakemenmoreevilcanjusticeproduceinjusticeanymorethantheartofhorsemanshipcanmakebadhorsemenorheatproducecoldthefinalconclusionisthatnosageorpoeteversaidthatthejustreturnevilforevilthiswasamaximofsomerichandmightymanperianderperdiccasorismeniasthethebanaboutbcthusthefirststageofaphoristicorunconsciousmoralityisshowntobeinadequatetothewantsoftheagetheauthorityofthepoetsissetasideandthroughthewindingmazesofdialecticwemakeanapproachtothechristianpreceptofforgivenessofinjuriessimilarwordsareappliedbythepersianmysticpoettothedivinebeingwhenthequestioningspiritisstirredwithinhimifbecauseidoevilthoupunishestmebyevilwhatisthedifferencebetweentheeandmeinthisbothplatoandkheyamriseabovethelevelofmanychristiantheologiansthefirstdefinitionofjusticeeasilypassesintothesecondforthesimplewordstospeakthetruthandpayyourdebtsissubstitutedthemoreabstracttodogoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemieseitheroftheseexplanationsgivesasufficientruleoflifeforplainmenbuttheybothfallshortoftheprecisionofphilosophywemaynoteinpassingtheantiquityofcasuistrywhichnotonlyarisesoutoftheconflictofestablishedprinciplesinparticularcasesbutalsooutoftheefforttoattainthemandisprioraswellasposteriortoourfundamentalnotionsofmoralitytheinterrogationofmoralideastheappealtotheauthorityofhomertheconclusionthatthemaximdogoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemiesbeingerroneouscouldnothavebeenthewordofanygreatmanareallofthemverycharacteristicoftheplatonicsocratesherethrasymachuswhohasmadeseveralattemptstointerruptbuthashithertobeenkeptinorderbythecompanytakesadvantageofapauseandrushesintothearenabeginninglikeasavageanimalwitharoarsocrateshesayswhatfollyisthiswhydoyouagreetobevanquishedbyoneanotherinapretendedargumenthethenprohibitsalltheordinarydefinitionsofjusticetowhichsocratesrepliesthathecannottellhowmanytwelveisifheisforbiddentosayxorxorxorxatfirstthrasymachusisreluctanttoarguebutatlengthwithapromiseofpaymentonthepartofthecompanyandofpraisefromsocratesheisinducedtoopenthegamelistenhesaysmyansweristhatmightisrightjusticetheinterestofthestrongernowpraisemeletmeunderstandyoufirstdoyoumeanthatbecausepolydamasthewrestlerwhoisstrongerthanwearefindstheeatingofbeefforhisinteresttheeatingofbeefisalsoforourinterestwhoarenotsostrongthrasymachusisindignantattheillustrationandinpompouswordsapparentlyintendedtorestoredignitytotheargumentheexplainshismeaningtobethattherulersmakelawsfortheirowninterestsbutsupposesayssocratesthattherulerorstrongermakesamistakethentheinterestofthestrongerisnothisinterestthrasymachusissavedfromthisspeedydownfallbyhisdisciplecleitophonwhointroducesthewordthinksnottheactualinterestoftherulerbutwhathethinksorwhatseemstobehisinterestisjusticethecontradictionisescapedbytheunmeaningevasionforthoughhisrealandapparentinterestsmaydifferwhattherulerthinkstobehisinterestwillalwaysremainwhathethinkstobehisinterestofcoursethiswasnottheoriginalassertionnoristhenewinterpretationacceptedbythrasymachushimselfbutsocratesisnotdisposedtoquarrelaboutwordsifashesignificantlyinsinuateshisadversaryhaschangedhismindinwhatfollowsthrasymachusdoesinfactwithdrawhisadmissionthattherulermaymakeamistakeforheaffirmsthattherulerasarulerisinfalliblesocratesisquitereadytoacceptthenewpositionwhichheequallyturnsagainstthrasymachusbythehelpoftheanalogyoftheartseveryartorsciencehasaninterestbutthisinterestistobedistinguishedfromtheaccidentalinterestoftheartistandisonlyconcernedwiththegoodofthethingsorpersonswhichcomeundertheartandjusticehasaninterestwhichistheinterestnotoftherulerorjudgebutofthosewhocomeunderhisswaythrasymachusisonthebrinkoftheinevitableconclusionwhenhemakesabolddiversiontellmesocrateshesayshaveyouanursewhataquestionwhydoyouaskbecauseifyouhavesheneglectsyouandletsyougoaboutdrivellingandhasnoteventaughtyoutoknowtheshepherdfromthesheepforyoufancythatshepherdsandrulersneverthinkoftheirowninterestbutonlyoftheirsheeporsubjectswhereasthetruthisthattheyfattenthemfortheirusesheepandsubjectsalikeandexperienceprovesthatineveryrelationoflifethejustmanistheloserandtheunjustthegainerespeciallywhereinjusticeisonthegrandscalewhichisquiteanotherthingfromthepettyrogueriesofswindlersandburglarsandrobbersoftemplesthelanguageofmenprovesthisourgraciousandblessedtyrantandthelikeallwhichtendstoshowthatjusticeistheinterestofthestrongerandthatinjusticeismoreprofitableandalsostrongerthanjusticethrasymachuswhoisbetterataspeechthanatacloseargumenthavingdelugedthecompanywithwordshasamindtoescapebuttheotherswillnotlethimgoandsocratesaddsahumblebutearnestrequestthathewillnotdesertthematsuchacrisisoftheirfateandwhatcanidomoreforyouhesayswouldyouhavemeputthewordsbodilyintoyoursoulsgodforbidrepliessocratesbutwewantyoutobeconsistentintheuseoftermsandnottoemployphysicianinanexactsenseandthenagainshepherdorrulerinaninexactifthewordsarestrictlytakentherulerandtheshepherdlookonlytothegoodoftheirpeopleorflocksandnottotheirownwhereasyouinsistthatrulersaresolelyactuatedbyloveofofficenodoubtaboutitrepliesthrasymachusthenwhyaretheypaidisnotthereasonthattheirinterestisnotcomprehendedintheirartandisthereforetheconcernofanotherarttheartofpaywhichiscommontotheartsingeneralandthereforenotidenticalwithanyoneofthemnorwouldanymanbearulerunlesshewereinducedbythehopeofrewardorthefearofpunishmenttherewardismoneyorhonourthepunishmentisthenecessityofbeingruledbyamanworsethanhimselfandifastateorchurchwerecomposedentirelyofgoodmentheywouldbeaffectedbythelastmotiveonlyandtherewouldbeasmuchnoloepiscopariasthereisatpresentoftheoppositethesatireonexistinggovernmentsisheightenedbythesimpleandapparentlyincidentalmannerinwhichthelastremarkisintroducedthereisasimilarironyintheargumentthatthegovernorsofmankinddonotlikebeinginofficeandthatthereforetheydemandpayenoughofthistheotherassertionofthrasymachusisfarmoreimportantthattheunjustlifeismoregainfulthanthejustnowasyouandiglauconarenotconvincedbyhimwemustreplytohimbutifwetrytocomparetheirrespectivegainsweshallwantajudgetodecideforuswehadbetterthereforeproceedbymakingmutualadmissionsofthetruthtooneanotherthrasymachushadassertedthatperfectinjusticewasmoregainfulthanperfectjusticeandafteralittlehesitationheisinducedbysocratestoadmitthestillgreaterparadoxthatinjusticeisvirtueandjusticevicesocratespraiseshisfranknessandassumestheattitudeofonewhoseonlywishistounderstandthemeaningofhisopponentsatthesametimeheisweavinganetinwhichthrasymachusisfinallyenclosedtheadmissioniselicitedfromhimthatthejustmanseekstogainanadvantageovertheunjustonlybutnotoverthejustwhiletheunjustwouldgainanadvantageovereithersocratesinordertotestthisstatementemploysoncemorethefavouriteanalogyoftheartsthemusiciandoctorskilledartistofanysortdoesnotseektogainmorethantheskilledbutonlymorethantheunskilledthatistosayheworksuptoarulestandardlawanddoesnotexceeditwhereastheunskilledmakesrandomeffortsatexcessthustheskilledfallsonthesideofthegoodandtheunskilledonthesideoftheevilandthejustistheskilledandtheunjustistheunskilledtherewasgreatdifficultyinbringingthrasymachustothepointthedaywashotandhewasstreamingwithperspirationandforthefirsttimeinhislifehewasseentoblushbuthisotherthesisthatinjusticewasstrongerthanjusticehasnotyetbeenrefutedandsocratesnowproceedstotheconsiderationofthiswhichwiththeassistanceofthrasymachushehopestoclearupthelatterisatfirstchurlishbutinthejudicioushandsofsocratesissoonrestoredtogoodhumouristherenothonouramongthievesisnotthestrengthofinjusticeonlyaremnantofjusticeisnotabsoluteinjusticeabsoluteweaknessalsoahousethatisdividedagainstitselfcannotstandtwomenwhoquarreldetractfromoneanothersstrengthandhewhoisatwarwithhimselfistheenemyofhimselfandthegodsnotwickednessthereforebutsemiwickednessflourishesinstatesaremnantofgoodisneededinordertomakeunioninactionpossiblethereisnokingdomofevilinthisworldanotherquestionhasnotbeenansweredisthejustortheunjustthehappiertothiswereplythateveryarthasanendandanexcellenceorvirtuebywhichtheendisaccomplishedandisnottheendofthesoulhappinessandjusticetheexcellenceofthesoulbywhichhappinessisattainedjusticeandhappinessbeingthusshowntobeinseparablethequestionwhetherthejustortheunjustisthehappierhasdisappearedthrasymachusrepliesletthisbeyourentertainmentsocratesatthefestivalofbendisyesandaverygoodentertainmentwithwhichyourkindnesshassuppliedmenowthatyouhaveleftoffscoldingandyetnotagoodentertainmentbutthatwasmyownfaultforitastedoftoomanythingsfirstofallthenatureofjusticewasthesubjectofourenquiryandthenwhetherjusticeisvirtueandwisdomorevilandfollyandthenthecomparativeadvantagesofjustandunjustandthesumofallisthatiknownotwhatjusticeishowthenshalliknowwhetherthejustishappyornotthusthesophisticalfabrichasbeendemolishedchieflybyappealingtotheanalogyoftheartsjusticeisliketheartsinhavingnoexternalinterestandinnotaimingatexcessandjusticeistohappinesswhattheimplementoftheworkmanistohisworkatthisthemodernreaderisapttostumblebecauseheforgetsthatplatoiswritinginanagewhentheartsandthevirtueslikethemoralandintellectualfacultieswerestillundistinguishedamongearlyenquirersintothenatureofhumanactiontheartshelpedtofillupthevoidofspeculationandatfirstthecomparisonoftheartsandthevirtueswasnotperceivedbythemtobefallacioustheyonlysawthepointsofagreementinthemandnotthepointsofdifferencevirtuelikeartmusttakemeanstoanendgoodmannersarebothanartandavirtuecharacterisnaturallydescribedundertheimageofastatueandtherearemanyotherfiguresofspeechwhicharereadilytransferredfromarttomoralsthenextgenerationcleareduptheseperplexitiesoratleastsuppliedafterageswithafurtheranalysisofthemthecontemporariesofplatowereinastateoftransitionandhadnotyetfullyrealizedthecommonsensedistinctionofaristotlethatvirtueisconcernedwithactionartwithproductionnicethorthatvirtueimpliesintentionandconstancyofpurposewhereasartrequiresknowledgeonlyandyetintheabsurditieswhichfollowfromsomeusesoftheanalogythereseemstobeanintimationconveyedthatvirtueismorethanartthisisimpliedinthereductioadabsurdumthatjusticeisathiefandinthedissatisfactionwhichsocratesexpressesatthefinalresulttheexpressionanartofpaywhichisdescribedascommontoalltheartsisnotinaccordancewiththeordinaryuseoflanguagenorisitemployedelsewhereeitherbyplatoorbyanyothergreekwriteritissuggestedbytheargumentandseemstoextendtheconceptionofarttodoingaswellasmakinganotherflaworinaccuracyoflanguagemaybenotedinthewordsmenwhoareinjuredaremademoreunjustforthosewhoareinjuredarenotnecessarilymadeworsebutonlyharmedorilltreatedthesecondofthethreeargumentsthatthejustdoesnotaimatexcesshasarealmeaningthoughwrappedupinanenigmaticalformthatthegoodisofthenatureofthefiniteisapeculiarlyhellenicsentimentwhichmaybecomparedwiththelanguageofthosemodernwriterswhospeakofvirtueasfitnessandoffreedomasobediencetolawthemathematicalorlogicalnotionoflimiteasilypassesintoanethicaloneandevenfindsamythologicalexpressionintheconceptionofenvygreekideasofmeasureequalityorderunityproportionstilllingerinthewritingsofmoralistsandthetruespiritofthefineartsisbetterconveyedbysuchtermsthanbysuperlativeswhenworkmenstrivetodobetterthanwelltheydoconfoundtheirskillincovetousnesskingjohntheharmonyofthesoulandbodyandofthepartsofthesoulwithoneanotheraharmonyfairerthanthatofmusicalnotesisthetruehellenicmodeofconceivingtheperfectionofhumannatureinwhatmaybecalledtheepilogueofthediscussionwiththrasymachusplatoarguesthatevilisnotaprincipleofstrengthbutofdiscordanddissolutionjusttouchingthequestionwhichhasbeenoftentreatedinmoderntimesbytheologiansandphilosophersofthenegativenatureofevilinthelastargumentwetracethegermofthearistoteliandoctrineofanendandavirtuedirectedtowardstheendwhichagainissuggestedbytheartsthefinalreconcilementofjusticeandhappinessandtheidentityoftheindividualandthestatearealsointimatedsocratesreassumesthecharacterofaknownothingatthesametimeheappearstobenotwhollysatisfiedwiththemannerinwhichtheargumenthasbeenconductednothingisconcludedbutthetendencyofthedialecticalprocesshereasalwaysistoenlargeourconceptionofideasandtowidentheirapplicationtohumanlifebookiithrasymachusispacifiedbuttheintrepidglauconinsistsoncontinuingtheargumentheisnotsatisfiedwiththeindirectmannerinwhichattheendofthelastbooksocrateshaddisposedofthequestionwhetherthejustortheunjustisthehappierhebeginsbydividinggoodsintothreeclassesfirstgoodsdesirableinthemselvessecondlygoodsdesirableinthemselvesandfortheirresultsthirdlygoodsdesirablefortheirresultsonlyhethenaskssocratesinwhichofthethreeclasseshewouldplacejusticeinthesecondclassrepliessocratesamonggoodsdesirableforthemselvesandalsofortheirresultsthentheworldingeneralareofanothermindfortheysaythatjusticebelongstothetroublesomeclassofgoodswhicharedesirablefortheirresultsonlysocratesanswersthatthisisthedoctrineofthrasymachuswhichherejectsglauconthinksthatthrasymachuswastooreadytolistentothevoiceofthecharmerandproposestoconsiderthenatureofjusticeandinjusticeinthemselvesandapartfromtheresultsandrewardsofthemwhichtheworldisalwaysdinninginhisearshewillfirstofallspeakofthenatureandoriginofjusticesecondlyofthemannerinwhichmenviewjusticeasanecessityandnotagoodandthirdlyhewillprovethereasonablenessofthisviewtodoinjusticeissaidtobeagoodtosufferinjusticeanevilastheevilisdiscoveredbyexperiencetobegreaterthanthegoodthesuffererswhocannotalsobedoersmakeacompactthattheywillhaveneitherandthiscompactormeaniscalledjusticebutisreallytheimpossibilityofdoinginjusticenoonewouldobservesuchacompactifhewerenotobligedletussupposethatthejustandunjusthavetworingslikethatofgygesinthewellknownstorywhichmaketheminvisibleandthennodifferencewillappearinthemforeveryonewilldoevilifhecanandhewhoabstainswillberegardedbytheworldasafoolforhispainsmenmaypraisehiminpublicoutoffearforthemselvesbuttheywilllaughathimintheirheartscpgorgiasandnowletusframeanidealofthejustandunjustimaginetheunjustmantobemasterofhiscraftseldommakingmistakesandeasilycorrectingthemhavinggiftsofmoneyspeechstrengththegreatestvillainbearingthehighestcharacterandathissideletusplacethejustinhisnoblenessandsimplicitybeingnotseemingwithoutnameorrewardclothedinhisjusticeonlythebestofmenwhoisthoughttobetheworstandlethimdieashehaslivedimightaddbutiwouldratherputtherestintothemouthofthepanegyristsofinjusticetheywilltellyouthatthejustmanwillbescourgedrackedboundwillhavehiseyesputoutandwillatlastbecrucifiedliterallyimpaledandallthisbecauseheoughttohavepreferredseemingtobeinghowdifferentisthecaseoftheunjustwhoclingstoappearanceasthetruerealityhishighcharactermakeshimarulerhecanmarrywherehelikestradewherehelikeshelphisfriendsandhurthisenemieshavinggotrichbydishonestyhecanworshipthegodsbetterandwillthereforebemorelovedbythemthanthejustiwasthinkingwhattoanswerwhenadeimantusjoinedinthealreadyunequalfrayheconsideredthatthemostimportantpointofallhadbeenomittedmenaretaughttobejustforthesakeofrewardsparentsandguardiansmakereputationtheincentivetovirtueandotheradvantagesarepromisedbythemofamoresolidkindsuchaswealthymarriagesandhighofficestherearethepicturesinhomerandhesiodoffatsheepandheavyfleecesrichcornfieldsandtreestopplingwithfruitwhichthegodsprovideinthislifeforthejustandtheorphicpoetsaddasimilarpictureofanothertheheroesofmusaeusandeumolpuslieoncouchesatafestivalwithgarlandsontheirheadsenjoyingasthemeedofvirtueaparadiseofimmortaldrunkennesssomegofurtherandspeakofafairposterityinthethirdandfourthgenerationbutthewickedtheyburyinasloughandmakethemcarrywaterinasieveandinthislifetheyattributetothemtheinfamywhichglauconwasassumingtobethelotofthejustwhoaresupposedtobeunjusttakeanotherkindofargumentwhichisfoundbothinpoetryandprosevirtueashesiodsaysishonourablebutdifficultviceiseasyandprofitableyoumayoftenseethewickedingreatprosperityandtherighteousafflictedbythewillofheavenandmendicantprophetsknockatrichmensdoorspromisingtoatoneforthesinsofthemselvesortheirfathersinaneasyfashionwithsacrificesandfestivegamesorwithcharmsandinvocationstogetridofanenemygoodorbadbydivinehelpandatasmallchargetheyappealtobooksprofessingtobewrittenbymusaeusandorpheusandcarryawaythemindsofwholecitiesandpromisetogetsoulsoutofpurgatoryandifwerefusetolistentothemnooneknowswhatwillhappentouswhenalivelymindedingenuousyouthhearsallthiswhatwillbehisconclusionwillheinthelanguageofpindarmakejusticehishightowerorfortifyhimselfwithcrookeddeceitjusticehereflectswithouttheappearanceofjusticeismiseryandruininjusticehasthepromiseofagloriouslifeappearanceismasteroftruthandlordofhappinesstoappearancetheniwillturniwillputontheshowofvirtueandtrailbehindmethefoxofarchilochusihearsomeonesayingthatwickednessisnoteasilyconcealedtowhichireplythatnothinggreatiseasyunionandforceandrhetoricwilldomuchandifmensaythattheycannotprevailoverthegodsstillhowdoweknowthattherearegodsonlyfromthepoetswhoacknowledgethattheymaybeappeasedbysacrificesthenwhynotsinandpayforindulgencesoutofyoursinforiftherighteousareonlyunpunishedstilltheyhavenofurtherrewardwhilethewickedmaybeunpunishedandhavethepleasureofsinningtoobutwhatoftheworldbelownaysaystheargumentthereareatoningpowerswhowillsetthatmatterrightasthepoetswhoarethesonsofthegodstellusandthisisconfirmedbytheauthorityofthestatehowcanweresistsuchargumentsinfavourofinjusticeaddgoodmannersandasthewisetellusweshallmakethebestofbothworldswhothatisnotamiserablecaitiffwillrefrainfromsmilingatthepraisesofjusticeevenifamanknowsthebetterparthewillnotbeangrywithothersforheknowsalsothatmorethanhumanvirtueisneededtosaveamanandthatheonlypraisesjusticewhoisincapableofinjusticetheoriginoftheevilisthatallmenfromthebeginningheroespoetsinstructorsofyouthhavealwaysassertedthetemporaldispensationthehonoursandprofitsofjusticehadwebeentaughtinearlyyouththepowerofjusticeandinjusticeinherentinthesoulandunseenbyanyhumanordivineeyeweshouldnothaveneededotherstobeourguardiansbuteveryonewouldhavebeentheguardianofhimselfthisiswhatiwantyoutoshowsocratesothermenuseargumentswhichrathertendtostrengthenthepositionofthrasymachusthatmightisrightbutfromyouiexpectbetterthingsandpleaseasglauconsaidtoexcludereputationletthejustbethoughtunjustandtheunjustjustanddoyoustillprovetousthesuperiorityofjusticethethesiswhichforthesakeofargumenthasbeenmaintainedbyglauconistheconverseofthatofthrasymachusnotrightistheinterestofthestrongerbutrightisthenecessityoftheweakerstartingfromthesamepremiseshecarriestheanalysisofsocietyastepfurtherbackmightisstillrightbutthemightistheweaknessofthemanycombinedagainstthestrengthofthefewtherehavebeentheoriesinmodernaswellasinancienttimeswhichhaveafamilylikenesstothespeculationsofglauconegthatpoweristhefoundationofrightorthatamonarchhasadivinerighttogovernwellorillorthatvirtueisselfloveortheloveofpowerorthatwaristhenaturalstateofmanorthatprivatevicesarepublicbenefitsallsuchtheorieshaveakindofplausibilityfromtheirpartialagreementwithexperienceforhumannatureoscillatesbetweengoodandevilandthemotivesofactionsandtheoriginofinstitutionsmaybeexplainedtoacertainextentoneitherhypothesisaccordingtothecharacterorpointofviewofaparticularthinkertheobligationofmaintainingauthorityunderallcircumstancesandsometimesbyratherquestionablemeansisfeltstronglyandhasbecomeasortofinstinctamongcivilizedmenthedivinerightofkingsormoregenerallyofgovernmentsisoneoftheformsunderwhichthisnaturalfeelingisexpressednoragainisthereanyevilwhichhasnotsomeaccompanimentofgoodorpleasurenoranygoodwhichisfreefromsomealloyofevilnoranynobleorgenerousthoughtwhichmaynotbeattendedbyashadowortheghostofashadowofselfinterestorofselfloveweknowthatallhumanactionsareimperfectbutwedonotthereforeattributethemtotheworseratherthantothebettermotiveorprinciplesuchaphilosophyisbothfoolishandfalselikethatopinionofthecleverroguewhoassumesallothermentobelikehimselfandtheoriesofthissortdonotrepresenttherealnatureofthestatewhichisbasedonavaguesenseofrightgraduallycorrectedandenlargedbycustomandlawalthoughcapablealsoofperversionanymorethantheydescribetheoriginofsocietywhichistobesoughtinthefamilyandinthesocialandreligiousfeelingsofmannordotheyrepresenttheaveragecharacterofindividualswhichcannotbeexplainedsimplyonatheoryofevilbuthasalwaysacounteractingelementofgoodandasmenbecomebettersuchtheoriesappearmoreandmoreuntruthfultothembecausetheyaremoreconsciousoftheirowndisinterestednessalittleexperiencemaymakeamanacynicagreatdealwillbringhimbacktoatruerandkindlierviewofthemixednatureofhimselfandhisfellowmenthetwobrothersasksocratestoprovetothemthatthejustishappywhentheyhavetakenfromhimallthatinwhichhappinessisordinarilysupposedtoconsistnotthatthereisanyabsurdityintheattempttoframeanotionofjusticeapartfromcircumstancesfortheidealmustalwaysbeaparadoxwhencomparedwiththeordinaryconditionsofhumanlifeneitherthestoicalidealnorthechristianidealistrueasafactbuttheymayserveasabasisofeducationandmayexerciseanennoblinginfluenceanidealisnonetheworsebecausesomeonehasmadethediscoverythatnosuchidealwaseverrealizedandinafewexceptionalindividualswhoareraisedabovetheordinarylevelofhumanitytheidealofhappinessmayberealizedindeathandmiserythismaybethestatewhichthereasondeliberatelyapprovesandwhichtheutilitarianaswellaseveryothermoralistmaybeboundincertaincasestoprefernoragainmustweforgetthatplatothoughheagreesgenerallywiththeviewimpliedintheargumentofthetwobrothersisnotexpressinghisownfinalconclusionbutratherseekingtodramatizeoneoftheaspectsofethicaltruthheisdevelopinghisideagraduallyinaseriesofpositionsorsituationsheisexhibitingsocratesforthefirsttimeundergoingthesocraticinterrogationlastlythewordhappinessinvolvessomedegreeofconfusionbecauseassociatedinthelanguageofmodernphilosophywithconsciouspleasureorsatisfactionwhichwasnotequallypresenttohismindglauconhasbeendrawingapictureofthemiseryofthejustandthehappinessoftheunjusttowhichthemiseryofthetyrantinbookixistheanswerandparallelandstilltheunjustmustappearjustthatisthehomagewhichvicepaystovirtuebutnowadeimantustakingupthehintwhichhadbeenalreadygivenbyglauconproceedstoshowthatintheopinionofmankindjusticeisregardedonlyforthesakeofrewardsandreputationandpointsouttheadvantagewhichisgiventosuchargumentsasthoseofthrasymachusandglauconbytheconventionalmoralityofmankindheseemstofeelthedifficultyofjustifyingthewaysofgodtomanboththebrotherstouchuponthequestionwhetherthemoralityofactionsisdeterminedbytheirconsequencesandbothofthemgobeyondthepositionofsocratesthatjusticebelongstotheclassofgoodsnotdesirableforthemselvesonlybutdesirableforthemselvesandfortheirresultstowhichherecallsthemintheirattempttoviewjusticeasaninternalprincipleandintheircondemnationofthepoetstheyanticipatehimthecommonlifeofgreeceisnotenoughforthemtheymustpenetratedeeperintothenatureofthingsithasbeenobjectedthatjusticeishonestyinthesenseofglauconandadeimantusbutistakenbysocratestomeanallvirtuemaywenotmoretrulysaythattheoldfashionednotionofjusticeisenlargedbysocratesandbecomesequivalenttouniversalorderorwellbeingfirstinthestateandsecondlyintheindividualhehasfoundanewanswertohisoldquestionprotagwhetherthevirtuesareoneormanyvizthatoneistheorderingprincipleofthethreeothersinseekingtoestablishthepurelyinternalnatureofjusticeheismetbythefactthatmanisasocialbeingandhetriestoharmonisethetwooppositethesesaswellashecanthereisnomoreinconsistencyinthisthanwasinevitableinhisageandcountrythereisnouseinturninguponhimthecrosslightsofmodernphilosophywhichfromsomeotherpointofviewwouldappearequallyinconsistentplatodoesnotgivethefinalsolutionofphilosophicalquestionsforusnorcanhebejudgedofbyourstandardtheremainderoftherepublicisdevelopedoutofthequestionofthesonsofaristonthreepointsaredeservingofremarkinwhatimmediatelyfollowsfirstthattheanswerofsocratesisaltogetherindirecthedoesnotsaythathappinessconsistsinthecontemplationoftheideaofjusticeandstilllesswillhebetemptedtoaffirmthestoicalparadoxthatthejustmancanbehappyontherackbutfirsthedwellsonthedifficultyoftheproblemandinsistsonrestoringmantohisnaturalconditionbeforehewillanswerthequestionatallhetoowillframeanidealbuthisidealcomprehendsnotonlyabstractjusticebutthewholerelationsofmanunderthefancifulillustrationofthelargelettersheimpliesthathewillonlylookforjusticeinsocietyandthatfromthestatehewillproceedtotheindividualhisanswerinsubstanceamountstothisthatunderfavourableconditionsieintheperfectstatejusticeandhappinesswillcoincideandthatwhenjusticehasbeenoncefoundhappinessmaybelefttotakecareofitselfthathefallsintosomedegreeofinconsistencywheninthetenthbookheclaimstohavegotridoftherewardsandhonoursofjusticemaybeadmittedforhehasleftthosewhichexistintheperfectstateandthephilosopherwhoretiresundertheshelterofawallcanhardlyhavebeenesteemedhappybyhimatleastnotinthisworldstillhemaintainsthetrueattitudeofmoralactionletamandohisdutyfirstwithoutaskingwhetherhewillbehappyornotandhappinesswillbetheinseparableaccidentwhichattendshimseekyefirstthekingdomofgodandhisrighteousnessandallthesethingsshallbeaddeduntoyousecondlyitmayberemarkedthatplatopreservesthegenuinecharacterofgreekthoughtinbeginningwiththestateandingoingontotheindividualfirstethicsthenpoliticsthisistheorderofideastousthereverseistheorderofhistoryonlyaftermanystrugglesofthoughtdoestheindividualasserthisrightasamoralbeinginearlyagesheisnotonebutoneofmanythecitizenofastatewhichispriortohimandhehasnonotionofgoodorevilapartfromthelawofhiscountryorthecreedofhischurchandtothistypeheisconstantlytendingtorevertwhenevertheinfluenceofcustomorofpartyspiritortherecollectionofthepastbecomestoostrongforhimthirdlywemayobservetheconfusionoridentificationoftheindividualandthestateofethicsandpoliticswhichpervadesearlygreekspeculationandeveninmoderntimesretainsacertaindegreeofinfluencethesubtledifferencebetweenthecollectiveandindividualactionofmankindseemstohaveescapedearlythinkersandwetooaresometimesindangerofforgettingtheconditionsofunitedhumanactionwheneverweeitherelevatepoliticsintoethicsorlowerethicstothestandardofpoliticsthegoodmanandthegoodcitizenonlycoincideintheperfectstateandthisperfectioncannotbeattainedbylegislationactinguponthemfromwithoutbutifatallbyeducationfashioningthemfromwithinsocratespraisesthesonsofaristoninspiredoffspringoftherenownedheroastheelegiacpoettermsthembuthedoesnotunderstandhowtheycanarguesoeloquentlyonbehalfofinjusticewhiletheircharactershowsthattheyareuninfluencedbytheirownargumentsheknowsnothowtoanswerthemalthoughheisafraidofdesertingjusticeinthehourofneedhethereforemakesaconditionthathavingweakeyesheshallbeallowedtoreadthelargelettersfirstandthengoontothesmallerthatishemustlookforjusticeinthestatefirstandwillthenproceedtotheindividualaccordinglyhebeginstoconstructthestatesocietyarisesoutofthewantsofmanhisfirstwantisfoodhissecondahousehisthirdacoatthesenseoftheseneedsandthepossibilityofsatisfyingthembyexchangedrawindividualstogetheronthesamespotandthisisthebeginningofastatewhichwetakethelibertytoinventalthoughnecessityistherealinventortheremustbefirstahusbandmansecondlyabuilderthirdlyaweavertowhichmaybeaddedacobblerfourorfivecitizensatleastarerequiredtomakeacitynowmenhavedifferentnaturesandonemanwilldoonethingbetterthanmanyandbusinesswaitsfornomanhencetheremustbeadivisionoflabourintodifferentemploymentsintowholesaleandretailtradeintoworkersandmakersofworkmenstoolsintoshepherdsandhusbandmenacitywhichincludesallthiswillhavefarexceededthelimitoffourorfiveandyetnotbeverylargebutthenagainimportswillberequiredandimportsnecessitateexportsandthisimpliesvarietyofproduceinordertoattractthetasteofpurchasersalsomerchantsandshipsinthecitytoowemusthaveamarketandmoneyandretailtradesotherwisebuyersandsellerswillnevermeetandthevaluabletimeoftheproducerswillbewastedinvaineffortsatexchangeifweaddhiredservantsthestatewillbecompleteandwemayguessthatsomewhereintheintercourseofthecitizenswithoneanotherjusticeandinjusticewillappearherefollowsarusticpictureoftheirwayoflifetheyspendtheirdaysinhouseswhichtheyhavebuiltforthemselvestheymaketheirownclothesandproducetheirowncornandwinetheirprincipalfoodismealandflourandtheydrinkinmoderationtheyliveonthebestoftermswitheachotherandtakecarenottohavetoomanychildrenbutsaidglauconinterposingaretheynottohavearelishcertainlytheywillhavesaltandolivesandcheesevegetablesandfruitsandchestnutstoroastatthefiretisacityofpigssocrateswhyirepliedwhatdoyouwantmoreonlythecomfortsoflifesofasandtablesalsosaucesandsweetsiseeyouwantnotonlyastatebutaluxuriousstateandpossiblyinthemorecomplexframewemaysoonerfindjusticeandinjusticethenthefineartsmustgotoworkeveryconceivableinstrumentandornamentofluxurywillbewantedtherewillbedancerspainterssculptorsmusicianscooksbarberstirewomennursesartistsswineherdsandneatherdstoofortheanimalsandphysicianstocurethedisordersofwhichluxuryisthesourcetofeedallthesesuperfluousmouthsweshallneedapartofourneighbourslandandtheywillwantapartofoursandthisistheoriginofwarwhichmaybetracedtothesamecausesasotherpoliticalevilsourcitywillnowrequiretheslightadditionofacampandthecitizenwillbeconvertedintoasoldierbutthenagainourolddoctrineofthedivisionoflabourmustnotbeforgottentheartofwarcannotbelearnedinadayandtheremustbeanaturalaptitudeformilitarydutiestherewillbesomewarlikenatureswhohavethisaptitudedogskeenofscentswiftoffoottopursueandstrongoflimbtofightandasspiritisthefoundationofcouragesuchnatureswhetherofmenoranimalswillbefullofspiritbutthesespiritednaturesareapttobiteanddevouroneanothertheunionofgentlenesstofriendsandfiercenessagainstenemiesappearstobeanimpossibilityandtheguardianofastaterequiresbothqualitieswhothencanbeaguardiantheimageofthedogsuggestsananswerfordogsaregentletofriendsandfiercetostrangersyourdogisaphilosopherwhojudgesbytheruleofknowingornotknowingandphilosophywhetherinmanorbeastistheparentofgentlenessthehumanwatchdogsmustbephilosophersorloversoflearningwhichwillmakethemgentleandhowaretheytobelearnedwithouteducationbutwhatshalltheireducationbeisanybetterthantheoldfashionedsortwhichiscomprehendedunderthenameofmusicandgymnasticmusicincludesliteratureandliteratureisoftwokindstrueandfalsewhatdoyoumeanhesaidimeanthatchildrenhearstoriesbeforetheylearngymnasticsandthatthestoriesareeitheruntrueorhaveatmostoneortwograinsoftruthinabusheloffalsehoodnowearlylifeisveryimpressibleandchildrenoughtnottolearnwhattheywillhavetounlearnwhentheygrowupwemustthereforehaveacensorshipofnurserytalesbanishingsomeandkeepingotherssomeofthemareveryimproperaswemayseeinthegreatinstancesofhomerandhesiodwhonotonlytellliesbutbadliesstoriesabouturanusandsaturnwhichareimmoralaswellasfalseandwhichshouldneverbespokenoftoyoungpersonsorindeedatallorifatalltheninamysteryafterthesacrificenotofaneleusinianpigbutofsomeunprocurableanimalshallouryouthbeencouragedtobeattheirfathersbytheexampleofzeusorourcitizensbeincitedtoquarrelbyhearingorseeingrepresentationsofstrifeamongthegodsshalltheylistentothenarrativeofhephaestusbindinghismotherandofzeussendinghimflyingforhelpingherwhenshewasbeatensuchtalesmaypossiblyhaveamysticalinterpretationbuttheyoungareincapableofunderstandingallegoryifanyoneaskswhattalesaretobeallowedwewillanswerthatwearelegislatorsandnotbookmakersweonlylaydowntheprinciplesaccordingtowhichbooksaretobewrittentowritethemisthedutyofothersandourfirstprincipleisthatgodmustberepresentedasheisnotastheauthorofallthingsbutofgoodonlywewillnotsufferthepoetstosaythatheisthestewardofgoodandevilorthathehastwocasksfullofdestiniesorthatatheneandzeusincitedpandarustobreakthetreatyorthatgodcausedthesufferingsofniobeorofpelopsorthetrojanwarorthathemakesmensinwhenhewishestodestroythemeitherthesewerenottheactionsofthegodsorgodwasjustandmenwerethebetterforbeingpunishedbutthatthedeedwasevilandgodtheauthorisawickedsuicidalfictionwhichwewillallownooneoldoryoungtoutterthisisourfirstandgreatprinciplegodistheauthorofgoodonlyandthesecondprincipleislikeuntoitwithgodisnovariablenessorchangeofformreasonteachesusthisforifwesupposeachangeingodhemustbechangedeitherbyanotherorbyhimselfbyanotherbutthebestworksofnatureandartandthenoblestqualitiesofmindareleastliabletobechangedbyanyexternalforcebyhimselfbuthecannotchangeforthebetterhewillhardlychangefortheworseheremainsforeverfairestandbestinhisownimagethereforewerefusetolistentothepoetswhotellusofherebegginginthelikenessofapriestessorofotherdeitieswhoprowlaboutatnightinstrangedisguisesallthatblasphemousnonsensewithwhichmothersfoolthemanhoodoutoftheirchildrenmustbesuppressedbutsomeonewillsaythatgodwhoishimselfunchangeablemaytakeaforminrelationtouswhyshouldheforgodsaswellasmenhatethelieinthesoulorprincipleoffalsehoodandasforanyotherformoflyingwhichisusedforapurposeandisregardedasinnocentincertainexceptionalcaseswhatneedhavethegodsofthisfortheyarenotignorantofantiquitylikethepoetsnoraretheyafraidoftheirenemiesnorisanymadmanafriendoftheirsgodthenistrueheisabsolutelytruehechangesnothedeceivesnotbydayornightbywordorsignthisisoursecondgreatprinciplegodistrueawaywiththelyingdreamofagamemnoninhomerandtheaccusationofthetisagainstapolloinaeschylusinordertogiveclearnesstohisconceptionofthestateplatoproceedstotracethefirstprinciplesofmutualneedandofdivisionoflabourinanimaginarycommunityoffourorfivecitizensgraduallythiscommunityincreasesthedivisionoflabourextendstocountriesimportsnecessitateexportsamediumofexchangeisrequiredandretailerssitinthemarketplacetosavethetimeoftheproducersthesearethestepsbywhichplatoconstructsthefirstorprimitivestateintroducingtheelementsofpoliticaleconomybythewayasheisgoingtoframeasecondorcivilizedstatethesimplenaturallycomesbeforethecomplexheindulgeslikerousseauinapictureofprimitivelifeanideawhichhasindeedoftenhadapowerfulinfluenceontheimaginationofmankindbuthedoesnotseriouslymeantosaythatoneisbetterthantheotherpoliticusnorcananyinferencebedrawnfromthedescriptionofthefirststatetakenapartfromthesecondsuchasaristotleappearstodrawinthepoliticsweshouldnotinterpretaplatonicdialogueanymorethanapoemoraparableintooliteralormatteroffactastyleontheotherhandwhenwecomparethelivelyfancyofplatowiththedriedupabstractionsofmoderntreatisesonphilosophywearecompelledtosaywithprotagorasthatthemythusismoreinterestingprotagseveralinterestingremarkswhichinmoderntimeswouldhaveaplaceinatreatiseonpoliticaleconomyarescatteredupanddownthewritingsofplatoespeciallylawspopulationfreetradeadulterationwillsandbequestsbeggingeryxiasthoughnotplatosvalueanddemandrepublicdivisionoflabourthelastsubjectandalsotheoriginofretailtradeistreatedwithadmirablelucidityinthesecondbookoftherepublicbutplatonevercombinedhiseconomicideasintoasystemandneverseemstohaverecognizedthattradeisoneofthegreatmotivepowersofthestateandoftheworldhewouldmakeretailtradersonlyoftheinferiorsortofcitizensreplawsthoughheremarksquaintlyenoughlawsthatifonlythebestmenandthebestwomeneverywherewerecompelledtokeeptavernsforatimeortocarryonretailtradeetcthenweshouldknewhowpleasantandagreeableallthesethingsarethedisappointmentofglauconatthecityofpigstheludicrousdescriptionoftheministersofluxuryinthemorerefinedstateandtheafterthoughtofthenecessityofdoctorstheillustrationofthenatureoftheguardiantakenfromthedogthedesirablenessofofferingsomealmostunprocurablevictimwhenimpuremysteriesaretobecelebratedthebehaviourofzeustohisfatherandofhephaestustohismotheraretouchesofhumourwhichhavealsoaseriousmeaninginspeakingofeducationplatoratherstartlesusbyaffirmingthatachildmustbetrainedinfalsehoodfirstandintruthafterwardsyetthisisnotverydifferentfromsayingthatchildrenmustbetaughtthroughthemediumofimaginationaswellasreasonthattheirmindscanonlydevelopegraduallyandthatthereismuchwhichtheymustlearnwithoutunderstandingthisisalsothesubstanceofplatosviewthoughhemustbeacknowledgedtohavedrawnthelinesomewhatdifferentlyfrommodernethicalwritersrespectingtruthandfalsehoodtouseconomiesoraccommodationswouldnotbeallowableunlesstheywererequiredbythehumanfacultiesornecessaryforthecommunicationofknowledgetothesimpleandignorantweshouldinsistthatthewordwasinseparablefromtheintentionandthatwemustnotbefalselytrueiespeakoractfalselyinsupportofwhatwasrightortruebutplatowouldlimittheuseoffictionsonlybyrequiringthattheyshouldhaveagoodmoraleffectandthatsuchadangerousweaponasfalsehoodshouldbeemployedbytherulersaloneandforgreatobjectsagreekintheageofplatoattachednoimportancetothequestionwhetherhisreligionwasanhistoricalfacthewasjustbeginningtobeconsciousthatthepasthadahistorybuthecouldseenothingbeyondhomerandhesiodwhethertheirnarrativesweretrueorfalsedidnotseriouslyaffectthepoliticalorsociallifeofhellasmenonlybegantosuspectthattheywerefictionswhentheyrecognisedthemtobeimmoralandsoinallreligionstheconsiderationoftheirmoralitycomesfirstafterwardsthetruthofthedocumentsinwhichtheyarerecordedoroftheeventsnaturalorsupernaturalwhicharetoldofthembutinmoderntimesandinprotestantcountriesperhapsmorethanincatholicwehavebeentoomuchinclinedtoidentifythehistoricalwiththemoralandsomehaverefusedtobelieveinreligionatallunlessasuperhumanaccuracywasdiscernibleineverypartoftherecordthefactsofanancientorreligioushistoryareamongstthemostimportantofallfactsbuttheyarefrequentlyuncertainandweonlylearnthetruelessonwhichistobegatheredfromthemwhenweplaceourselvesabovethemthesereflectionstendtoshowthatthedifferencebetweenplatoandourselvesthoughnotunimportantisnotsogreatasmightatfirstsightappearforweshouldagreewithhiminplacingthemoralbeforethehistoricaltruthofreligionandgenerallyindisregardingthoseerrorsormisstatementsoffactwhichnecessarilyoccurintheearlystagesofallreligionsweknowalsothatchangesinthetraditionsofacountrycannotbemadeinadayandarethereforetolerantofmanythingswhichscienceandcriticismwouldcondemnwenoteinpassingthattheallegoricalinterpretationofmythologysaidtohavebeenfirstintroducedasearlyasthesixthcenturybeforechristbytheagenesofrhegiumwaswellestablishedintheageofplatoandhereasinthephaedrusthoughforadifferentreasonwasrejectedbyhimthatanachronismswhetherofreligionorlawwhenmenhavereachedanotherstageofcivilizationshouldbegotridofbyfictionsisinaccordancewithuniversalexperiencegreatistheartofinterpretationandbyanaturalprocesswhichwhenoncediscoveredwasalwaysgoingonwhatcouldnotbealteredwasexplainedawayandsowithoutanypalpableinconsistencythereexistedsidebysidetwoformsofreligionthetraditioninheritedorinventedbythepoetsandthecustomaryworshipofthetempleontheotherhandtherewasthereligionofthephilosopherwhowasdwellingintheheavenofideasbutdidnotthereforerefusetoofferacocktoaesculapiusortobeseensayinghisprayersattherisingofthesunatlengththeantagonismbetweenthepopularandphilosophicalreligionneversogreatamongthegreeksasinourownagedisappearedandwasonlyfeltlikethedifferencebetweenthereligionoftheeducatedanduneducatedamongourselvesthezeusofhomerandhesiodeasilypassedintotheroyalmindofplatophilebusthegiantheraclesbecametheknighterrantandbenefactorofmankindtheseandstillmorewonderfultransformationswerereadilyeffectedbytheingenuityofstoicsandneoplatonistsinthetwoorthreecenturiesbeforeandafterchristthegreekandromanreligionsweregraduallypermeatedbythespiritofphilosophyhavinglosttheirancientmeaningtheywereresolvedintopoetryandmoralityandprobablywereneverpurerthanatthetimeoftheirdecaywhentheirinfluenceovertheworldwaswaningasingularconceptionwhichoccurstowardstheendofthebookisthelieinthesoulthisisconnectedwiththeplatonicandsocraticdoctrinethatinvoluntaryignoranceisworsethanvoluntarythelieinthesoulisatrueliethecorruptionofthehighesttruththedeceptionofthehighestpartofthesoulfromwhichhewhoisdeceivedhasnopowerofdeliveringhimselfforexampletorepresentgodasfalseorimmoraloraccordingtoplatoasdeludingmenwithappearancesorastheauthorofeviloragaintoaffirmwithprotagorasthatknowledgeissensationorthatbeingisbecomingorwiththrasymachusthatmightisrightwouldhavebeenregardedbyplatoasalieofthishatefulsortthegreatestunconsciousnessofthegreatestuntruthegifinthelanguageofthegospelsjohnhewhowasblindweretosayiseeisanotheraspectofthestateofmindwhichplatoisdescribingthelieinthesoulmaybefurthercomparedwiththesinagainsttheholyghostlukeallowingforthedifferencebetweengreekandchristianmodesofspeakingtothisisopposedthelieinwordswhichisonlysuchadeceptionasmayoccurinaplayorpoemorallegoryorfigureofspeechorinanysortofaccommodationwhichthoughuselesstothegodsmaybeusefultomenincertaincasessocratesishereansweringthequestionwhichhehadhimselfraisedabouttheproprietyofdeceivingamadmanandheisalsocontrastingthenatureofgodandmanforgodistruthbutmankindcanonlybetruebyappearingsometimestobepartialorfalsereservingforanotherplacethegreaterquestionsofreligionoreducationwemaynotefurthertheapprovaloftheoldtraditionaleducationofgreecethepreparationwhichplatoismakingfortheattackonhomerandthepoetsthepreparationwhichheisalsomakingfortheuseofeconomiesinthestatethecontemptuousandatthesametimeeuphemisticmannerinwhichhereasbelowhealludestothechroniquescandaleuseofthegodsbookiiithereisanothermotiveinpurifyingreligionwhichistobanishfearfornomancanbecourageouswhoisafraidofdeathorwhobelievesthetaleswhicharerepeatedbythepoetsconcerningtheworldbelowtheymustbegentlyrequestednottoabusehelltheymayberemindedthattheirstoriesarebothuntrueanddiscouragingnormusttheybeangryifweexpungeobnoxiouspassagessuchasthedepressingwordsofachillesiwouldratherbeaservingmanthanruleoverallthedeadandtheverseswhichtellofthesqualidmansionsthesenselessshadowstheflittingsoulmourningoverloststrengthandyouththesoulwithagibbergoingbeneaththeearthlikesmokeorthesoulsofthesuitorswhichflutteraboutlikebatstheterrorsandhorrorsofcocytusandstyxghostsandsaplessshadesandtherestoftheirtartareannomenclaturemustvanishsuchtalesmayhavetheirusebuttheyarenottheproperfoodforsoldiersaslittlecanweadmitthesorrowsandsympathiesofthehomericheroesachillesthesonofthetisintearsthrowingashesonhisheadorpacingupanddowntheseashoreindistractionorpriamthecousinofthegodscryingaloudrollinginthemireagoodmanisnotprostratedatthelossofchildrenorfortuneneitherisdeathterribletohimandthereforelamentationsoverthedeadshouldnotbepractisedbymenofnotetheyshouldbetheconcernofinferiorpersonsonlywhetherwomenormenstillworseistheattributionofsuchweaknesstothegodsaswhenthegoddessessayalasmytravailandworstofallwhenthekingofheavenhimselflamentshisinabilitytosavehectororsorrowsovertheimpendingdoomofhisdearsarpedonsuchacharacterofgodifnotridiculedbyouryoungmenislikelytobeimitatedbythemnorshouldourcitizensbegiventoexcessoflaughtersuchviolentdelightsarefollowedbyaviolentreactionthedescriptionintheiliadofthegodsshakingtheirsidesattheclumsinessofhephaestuswillnotbeadmittedbyuscertainlynottruthshouldhaveahighplaceamongthevirtuesforfalsehoodasweweresayingisuselesstothegodsandonlyusefultomenasamedicinebutthisemploymentoffalsehoodmustremainaprivilegeofstatethecommonmanmustnotinreturntellalietotheruleranymorethanthepatientwouldtellalietohisphysicianorthesailortohiscaptaininthenextplaceouryouthmustbetemperateandtemperanceconsistsinselfcontrolandobediencetoauthoritythatisalessonwhichhomerteachesinsomeplacestheachaeansmarchedonbreathingprowessinsilentaweoftheirleadersbutaverydifferentoneinotherplacesoheavywithwinewhohasttheeyesofadogbuttheheartofastaglanguageofthelatterkindwillnotimpressselfcontrolonthemindsofyouththesamemaybesaidabouthispraisesofeatinganddrinkingandhisdreadofstarvationalsoabouttheversesinwhichhetellsoftherapturouslovesofzeusandhereorofhowhephaestusoncedetainedaresandaphroditeinanetonasimilaroccasionthereisanoblerstrainheardinthewordsenduremysoulthouhastenduredworsenormustweallowourcitizenstoreceivebribesortosaygiftspersuadethegodsgiftsreverendkingsortoapplaudtheignobleadviceofphoenixtoachillesthatheshouldgetmoneyoutofthegreeksbeforeheassistedthemorthemeannessofachilleshimselfintakinggiftsfromagamemnonorhisrequiringaransomforthebodyofhectororhiscursingofapolloorhisinsolencetotherivergodscamanderorhisdedicationtothedeadpatroclusofhisownhairwhichhadbeenalreadydedicatedtotheotherrivergodspercheiusorhiscrueltyindraggingthebodyofhectorroundthewallsandslayingthecaptivesatthepyresuchacombinationofmeannessandcrueltyincheironspupilisinconceivabletheamatoryexploitsofpeirithousandtheseusareequallyunworthyeitherthesesocalledsonsofgodswerenotthesonsofgodsortheywerenotsuchasthepoetsimaginethemanymorethanthegodsthemselvesaretheauthorsofeviltheyouthwhobelievesthatsuchthingsaredonebythosewhohavethebloodofheavenflowingintheirveinswillbetooreadytoimitatetheirexampleenoughofgodsandheroeswhatshallwesayaboutmenwhatthepoetsandstorytellerssaythatthewickedprosperandtherighteousareafflictedorthatjusticeisanothersgainsuchmisrepresentationscannotbeallowedbyusbutinthisweareanticipatingthedefinitionofjusticeandhadthereforebetterdefertheenquirythesubjectsofpoetryhavebeensufficientlytreatednextfollowsstylenowallpoetryisanarrativeofeventspastpresentortocomeandnarrativeisofthreekindsthesimpletheimitativeandacompositionofthetwoaninstancewillmakemymeaningclearthefirstsceneinhomerisofthelastormixedkindbeingpartlydescriptionandpartlydialoguebutifyouthrowthedialogueintotheoratioobliquathepassagewillrunthusthepriestcameandprayedapollothattheachaeansmighttaketroyandhaveasafereturnifagamemnonwouldonlygivehimbackhisdaughterandtheothergreeksassentedbutagamemnonwaswrothandsoonthewholethenbecomesdescriptiveandthepoetistheonlyspeakerleftorifyouomitthenarrativethewholebecomesdialoguethesearethethreestyleswhichofthemistobeadmittedintoourstatedoyouaskwhethertragedyandcomedyaretobeadmittedyesbutalsosomethingmoreisitnotdoubtfulwhetherourguardiansaretobeimitatorsatallorratherhasnotthequestionbeenalreadyansweredforwehavedecidedthatonemancannotinhislifeplaymanypartsanymorethanhecanactbothtragedyandcomedyorberhapsodistandactoratoncehumannatureiscoinedintoverysmallpiecesandasourguardianshavetheirownbusinessalreadywhichisthecareoffreedomtheywillhaveenoughtodowithoutimitatingiftheyimitatetheyshouldimitatenotanymeannessorbasenessbutthegoodonlyforthemaskwhichtheactorwearsisapttobecomehisfacewecannotallowmentoplaythepartsofwomenquarrellingweepingscoldingorboastingagainstthegodsleastofallwhenmakingloveorinlabourtheymustnotrepresentslavesorbulliesorcowardsdrunkardsormadmenorblacksmithsorneighinghorsesorbellowingbullsorsoundingriversoraragingseaagoodorwisemanwillbewillingtoperformgoodandwiseactionsbuthewillbeashamedtoplayaninferiorpartwhichhehasneverpractisedandhewillprefertoemploythedescriptivestylewithaslittleimitationaspossiblethemanwhohasnoselfrespectonthecontrarywillimitateanybodyandanythingsoundsofnatureandcriesofanimalsalikehiswholeperformancewillbeimitationofgestureandvoicenowinthedescriptivestyletherearefewchangesbutinthedramaticthereareagreatmanypoetsandmusiciansuseeitheroracompoundofbothandthiscompoundisveryattractivetoyouthandtheirteachersaswellastothevulgarbutourstateinwhichonemanplaysonepartonlyisnotadaptedforcomplexityandwhenoneofthesepolyphonouspantomimicgentlemenofferstoexhibithimselfandhispoetrywewillshowhimeveryobservanceofrespectbutatthesametimetellhimthatthereisnoroomforhiskindinourstateweprefertheroughhonestpoetandwillnotdepartfromouroriginalmodelslawsnextastothemusicasongorodehasthreepartsthesubjecttheharmonyandtherhythmofwhichthetwolastaredependentuponthefirstaswebanishedstrainsoflamentationsowemaynowbanishthemixedlydianharmonieswhicharetheharmoniesoflamentationandasourcitizensaretobetemperatewemayalsobanishconvivialharmoniessuchastheionianandpurelydiantworemainthedorianandphrygianthefirstforwarthesecondforpeacetheoneexpressiveofcouragetheotherofobedienceorinstructionorreligiousfeelingandaswerejectvarietiesofharmonyweshallalsorejectthemanystringedvariouslyshapedinstrumentswhichgiveutterancetothemandinparticulartheflutewhichismorecomplexthananyofthemthelyreandtheharpmaybepermittedinthetownandthepanspipeinthefieldsthuswehavemadeapurgationofmusicandwillnowmakeapurgationofmetrestheseshouldbeliketheharmoniessimpleandsuitabletotheoccasiontherearefournotesofthetetrachordandtherearethreeratiosofmetrewhichhavealltheircharacteristicsandthefeethavedifferentcharacteristicsaswellastherhythmsbutaboutthisyouandimustaskdamonthegreatmusicianwhospeaksifirememberrightlyofamartialmeasureaswellasofdactylictrochaicandiambicrhythmswhichhearrangessoastoequalizethesyllableswithoneanotherassigningtoeachtheproperquantityweonlyventuretoaffirmthegeneralprinciplethatthestyleistoconformtothesubjectandthemetretothestyleandthatthesimplicityandharmonyofthesoulshouldbereflectedinthemallthisprincipleofsimplicityhastobelearntbyeveryoneinthedaysofhisyouthandmaybegatheredanywherefromthecreativeandconstructiveartsaswellasfromtheformsofplantsandanimalsotherartistsaswellaspoetsshouldbewarnedagainstmeannessorunseemlinesssculptureandpaintingequallywithmusicmustconformtothelawofsimplicityhewhoviolatesitcannotbeallowedtoworkinourcityandtocorruptthetasteofourcitizensforourguardiansmustgrowupnotamidimagesofdeformitywhichwillgraduallypoisonandcorrupttheirsoulsbutinalandofhealthandbeautywheretheywilldrinkinfromeveryobjectsweetandharmoniousinfluencesandofalltheseinfluencesthegreatestistheeducationgivenbymusicwhichfindsawayintotheinnermostsoulandimpartstoitthesenseofbeautyandofdeformityatfirsttheeffectisunconsciousbutwhenreasonarrivesthenhewhohasbeenthustrainedwelcomesherasthefriendwhomhealwaysknewasinlearningtoreadfirstweacquiretheelementsorlettersseparatelyandafterwardstheircombinationsandcannotrecognizereflectionsofthemuntilweknowthelettersthemselvesinlikemannerwemustfirstattaintheelementsoressentialformsofthevirtuesandthentracetheircombinationsinlifeandexperiencethereisamusicofthesoulwhichanswerstotheharmonyoftheworldandthefairestobjectofamusicalsoulisthefairmindinthefairbodysomedefectinthelattermaybeexcusedbutnotintheformertrueloveisthedaughteroftemperanceandtemperanceisutterlyopposedtothemadnessofbodilypleasureenoughhasbeensaidofmusicwhichmakesafairendingwithlovenextwepassontogymnasticsaboutwhichiwouldremarkthatthesoulisrelatedtothebodyasacausetoaneffectandthereforeifweeducatethemindwemayleavetheeducationofthebodyinherchargeandneedonlygiveageneraloutlineofthecoursetobepursuedinthefirstplacetheguardiansmustabstainfromstrongdrinkfortheyshouldbethelastpersonstolosetheirwitswhetherthehabitsofthepalaestraaresuitabletothemismoredoubtfulfortheordinarygymnasticisasleepysortofthingandifleftoffsuddenlyisapttoendangerhealthbutourwarriorathletesmustbewideawakedogsandmustalsobeinuredtoallchangesoffoodandclimatehencetheywillrequireasimplerkindofgymnasticakintotheirsimplemusicandfortheirdietarulemaybefoundinhomerwhofeedshisheroesonroastmeatonlyandgivesthemnofishalthoughtheyarelivingattheseasidenorboiledmeatswhichinvolveanapparatusofpotsandpansandifiamnotmistakenhenowherementionssweetsaucessiciliancookeryandatticconfectionsandcorinthiancourtezanswhicharetogymnasticwhatlydianandionianmelodiesaretomusicmustbeforbiddenwheregluttonyandintemperanceprevailthetownquicklyfillswithdoctorsandpleadersandlawandmedicinegivethemselvesairsassoonasthefreemenofastatetakeaninterestinthembutwhatcanshowamoredisgracefulstateofeducationthantohavetogoabroadforjusticebecauseyouhavenoneofyourownathomeandyetthereisaworsestageofthesamediseasewhenmenhavelearnedtotakeapleasureandprideinthetwistsandturnsofthelawnotconsideringhowmuchbetteritwouldbeforthemsotoordertheirlivesastohavenoneedofanoddingjusticeandthereisalikedisgraceinemployingaphysiciannotforthecureofwoundsorepidemicdisordersbutbecauseamanhasbylazinessandluxurycontracteddiseaseswhichwereunknowninthedaysofasclepiushowsimpleisthehomericpracticeofmedicineeurypylusafterhehasbeenwoundeddrinksapossetofpramnianwinewhichisofaheatingnatureandyetthesonsofasclepiusblameneitherthedamselwhogiveshimthedrinknorpatrocluswhoisattendingonhimthetruthisthatthismodernsystemofnursingdiseaseswasintroducedbyherodicusthetrainerwhobeingofasicklyconstitutionbyacompoundoftrainingandmedicinetorturedfirsthimselfandthenagoodmanyotherpeopleandlivedagreatdeallongerthanhehadanyrightbutasclepiuswouldnotpractisethisartbecauseheknewthatthecitizensofawellorderedstatehavenoleisuretobeillandthereforeheadoptedthekillorcuremethodwhichartisansandlabourersemploytheymustbeattheirbusinesstheysayandhavenotimeforcoddlingiftheyrecoverwelliftheydontthereisanendofthemwhereastherichmanissupposedtobeagentlemanwhocanaffordtobeilldoyouknowamaximofphocylidesthatwhenamanbeginstoberichorperhapsalittlesoonerheshouldpractisevirtuebuthowcanexcessivecareofhealthbeinconsistentwithanordinaryoccupationandyetconsistentwiththatpracticeofvirtuewhichphocylidesinculcateswhenastudentimaginesthatphilosophygiveshimaheadacheheneverdoesanythingheisalwaysunwellthiswasthereasonwhyasclepiusandhissonspractisednosucharttheywereactingintheinterestofthepublicanddidnotwishtopreserveuselesslivesorraiseupapunyoffspringtowretchedsireshonestdiseasestheyhonestlycuredandifamanwaswoundedtheyappliedtheproperremediesandthenlethimeatanddrinkwhathelikedbuttheydeclinedtotreatintemperateandworthlesssubjectseventhoughtheymighthavemadelargefortunesoutofthemastothestoryofpindarthatasclepiuswasslainbyathunderboltforrestoringarichmantolifethatisaliefollowingouroldrulewemustsayeitherthathedidnottakebribesorthathewasnotthesonofagodglauconthenaskssocrateswhetherthebestphysiciansandthebestjudgeswillnotbethosewhohavehadseverallythegreatestexperienceofdiseasesandofcrimessocratesdrawsadistinctionbetweenthetwoprofessionsthephysicianshouldhavehadexperienceofdiseaseinhisownbodyforhecureswithhismindandnotwithhisbodybutthejudgecontrolsmindbymindandthereforehismindshouldnotbecorruptedbycrimewherethenishetogainexperiencehowishetobewiseandalsoinnocentwhenyoungagoodmanisapttobedeceivedbyevildoersbecausehehasnopatternofevilinhimselfandthereforethejudgeshouldbeofacertainagehisyouthshouldhavebeeninnocentandheshouldhaveacquiredinsightintoevilnotbythepracticeofitbutbytheobservationofitinothersthisistheidealofajudgethecriminalturneddetectiveiswonderfullysuspiciousbutwhenincompanywithgoodmenwhohaveexperienceheisatfaultforhefoolishlyimaginesthateveryoneisasbadashimselfvicemaybeknownofvirtuebutcannotknowvirtuethisisthesortofmedicineandthisthesortoflawwhichwillprevailinourstatetheywillbehealingartstobetternaturesbuttheevilbodywillbelefttodiebytheoneandtheevilsoulwillbeputtodeathbytheotherandtheneedofeitherwillbegreatlydiminishedbygoodmusicwhichwillgiveharmonytothesoulandgoodgymnasticwhichwillgivehealthtothebodynotthatthisdivisionofmusicandgymnasticreallycorrespondstosoulandbodyfortheyarebothequallyconcernedwiththesoulwhichistamedbytheoneandarousedandsustainedbytheotherthetwotogethersupplyourguardianswiththeirtwofoldnaturethepassionatedispositionwhenithastoomuchgymnasticishardenedandbrutalizedthegentleorphilosophictemperwhichhastoomuchmusicbecomesenervatedwhileamanisallowingmusictopourlikewaterthroughthefunnelofhisearstheedgeofhissoulgraduallywearsawayandthepassionateorspiritedelementismeltedoutofhimtoolittlespiritiseasilyexhaustedtoomuchquicklypassesintonervousirritabilitysoagaintheathletebyfeedingandtraininghashiscouragedoubledbuthesoongrowsstupidheislikeawildbeastreadytodoeverythingbyblowsandnothingbycounselorpolicytherearetwoprinciplesinmanreasonandpassionandtothesenottothesoulandbodythetwoartsofmusicandgymnasticcorrespondhewhominglestheminharmoniousconcordisthetruemusicianheshallbethepresidinggeniusofourstatethenextquestioniswhoaretobeourrulersfirsttheeldermustruletheyoungerandthebestoftheelderswillbethebestguardiansnowtheywillbethebestwholovetheirsubjectsmostandthinkthattheyhaveacommoninterestwiththeminthewelfareofthestatethesewemustselectbuttheymustbewatchedateveryepochoflifetoseewhethertheyhaveretainedthesameopinionsandheldoutagainstforceandenchantmentfortimeandpersuasionandtheloveofpleasuremayenchantamanintoachangeofpurposeandtheforceofgriefandpainmaycompelhimandthereforeourguardiansmustbemenwhohavebeentriedbymanytestslikegoldintherefinersfireandhavebeenpassedfirstthroughdangerthenthroughpleasureandateveryagehavecomeoutofsuchtrialsvictoriousandwithoutstaininfullcommandofthemselvesandtheirprincipleshavingalltheirfacultiesinharmoniousexercisefortheircountrysgoodtheseshallreceivethehighesthonoursbothinlifeanddeathitwouldperhapsbebettertoconfinethetermguardianstothisselectclasstheyoungermenmaybecalledauxiliariesandnowforonemagnificentlieinthebeliefofwhichohthatwecouldtrainourrulersatanyrateletusmaketheattemptwiththerestoftheworldwhatiamgoingtotellisonlyanotherversionofthelegendofcadmusbutourunbelievinggenerationwillbeslowtoacceptsuchastorythetalemustbeimpartedfirsttotherulersthentothesoldierslastlytothepeoplewewillinformthemthattheiryouthwasadreamandthatduringthetimewhentheyseemedtobeundergoingtheireducationtheywerereallybeingfashionedintheearthwhosentthemupwhentheywerereadyandthattheymustprotectandcherishherwhosechildrentheyareandregardeachotherasbrothersandsistersidonotwonderatyourbeingashamedtopropoundsuchafictionthereismorebehindthesebrothersandsistershavedifferentnaturesandsomeofthemgodframedtorulewhomhefashionedofgoldothershemadeofsilvertobeauxiliariesothersagaintobehusbandmenandcraftsmenandthesewereformedbyhimofbrassandironbutastheyareallsprungfromacommonstockagoldenparentmayhaveasilversonorasilverparentagoldensonandthentheremustbeachangeofrankthesonoftherichmustdescendandthechildoftheartisanriseinthesocialscaleforanoraclesaysthatthestatewillcometoanendifgovernedbyamanofbrassorironwillourcitizenseverbelieveallthisnotinthepresentgenerationbutinthenextperhapsyesnowlettheearthbornmengoforthunderthecommandoftheirrulersandlookaboutandpitchtheircampinahighplacewhichwillbesafeagainstenemiesfromwithoutandlikewiseagainstinsurrectionsfromwithinthereletthemsacrificeandsetuptheirtentsforsoldierstheyaretobeandnotshopkeepersthewatchdogsandguardiansofthesheepandluxuryandavaricewillturnthemintowolvesandtyrantstheirhabitsandtheirdwellingsshouldcorrespondtotheireducationtheyshouldhavenopropertytheirpayshouldonlymeettheirexpensesandtheyshouldhavecommonmealsgoldandsilverwewilltellthemthattheyhavefromgodandthisdivinegiftintheirsoulstheymustnotalloywiththatearthlydrosswhichpassesunderthenameofgoldtheyonlyofthecitizensmaynottouchitorbeunderthesameroofwithitordrinkfromititistheaccursedthingshouldtheyeveracquirehousesorlandsormoneyoftheirowntheywillbecomehouseholdersandtradesmeninsteadofguardiansenemiesandtyrantsinsteadofhelpersandthehourofruinbothtothemselvesandtherestofthestatewillbeathandthereligiousandethicalaspectofplatoseducationwillhereafterbeconsideredunderaseparateheadsomelesserpointsmaybemoreconvenientlynoticedinthisplacetheconstantappealtotheauthorityofhomerwhomwithgraveironyplatoafterthemannerofhisagesummonsasawitnessaboutethicsandpsychologyaswellasaboutdietandmedicineattemptingtodistinguishthebetterlessonfromtheworsesometimesalteringthetextfromdesignmorethanoncequotingoralludingtohomerinaccuratelyafterthemanneroftheearlylogographersturningtheiliadintoproseanddelightingtodrawfarfetchedinferencesfromhiswordsortomakeludicrousapplicationsofthemhedoesnotlikeheracleitusgetintoaragewithhomerandarchilochusheraclbutusestheirwordsandexpressionsasvehiclesofahighertruthnotonasystemliketheagenesofrhegiumormetrodorusorinlatertimesthestoicsbutasfancymaydictateandtheconclusionsdrawnfromthemaresoundalthoughthepremisesarefictitiousthesefancifulappealstohomeraddacharmtoplatosstyleandatthesametimetheyhavetheeffectofasatireonthefolliesofhomericinterpretationtousandprobablytohimselfalthoughtheytaketheformofargumentstheyarereallyfiguresofspeechtheymaybecomparedwithmoderncitationsfromscripturewhichhaveoftenagreatrhetoricalpowerevenwhentheoriginalmeaningofthewordsisentirelylostsightoftherealliketheplatonicsocratesaswegatherfromthememorabiliaofxenophonwasfondofmakingsimilaradaptationsgreatinallagesandcountriesinreligionaswellasinlawandliteraturehasbeentheartofinterpretationthestyleistoconformtothesubjectandthemetretothestylenotwithstandingthefascinationwhichthewordclassicalexercisesoveruswecanhardlymaintainthatthisruleisobservedinallthegreekpoetrywhichhascomedowntouswecannotdenythatthethoughtoftenexceedsthepoweroflucidexpressioninaeschylusandpindarorthatrhetoricgetsthebetterofthethoughtinthesophistpoeteuripidesonlyperhapsinsophoclesisthereaperfectharmonyofthetwoinhimalonedowefindagraceoflanguagelikethebeautyofagreekstatueinwhichthereisnothingtoaddortotakeawayatleastthisistrueofsingleplaysoroflargeportionsofthemtheconnectioninthetragicchorusesandinthegreeklyricpoetsisnotunfrequentlyatangledthreadwhichinanagebeforelogicthepoetwasunabletodrawoutmanythoughtsandfeelingsmingledinhismindandhehadnopowerofdisengagingorarrangingthemforthereisasubtleinfluenceoflogicwhichrequirestobetransferredfromprosetopoetryjustasthemusicandperfectionoflanguageareinfusedbypoetryintoproseinallagesthepoethasbeenabadjudgeofhisownmeaningapolforhedoesnotseethatthewordwhichisfullofassociationstohisownmindisdifficultandunmeaningtothatofanotherorthatthesequencewhichiscleartohimselfispuzzlingtootherstherearemanypassagesinsomeofourgreatestmodernpoetswhicharefartooobscureinwhichthereisnoproportionbetweenstyleandsubjectinwhichanyhalfexpressedfigureanyharshconstructionanydistortedcollocationofwordsanyremotesequenceofideasisadmittedandthereisnovoicecomingsweetlyfromnatureormusicaddingtheexpressionoffeelingtothoughtasiftherecouldbepoetrywithoutbeautyorbeautywithouteaseandclearnesstheobscuritiesofearlygreekpoetsarosenecessarilyoutofthestateoflanguageandlogicwhichexistedintheiragetheyarenotexamplestobefollowedbyusfortheuseoflanguageoughtineverygenerationtobecomeclearerandclearerlikeshakesperetheyweregreatinspitenotinconsequenceoftheirimperfectionsofexpressionbutthereisnoreasonforreturningtothenecessaryobscuritywhichprevailedintheinfancyofliteraturetheenglishpoetsofthelastcenturywerecertainlynotobscureandwehavenoexcuseforlosingwhattheyhadgainedorforgoingbacktotheearlierortransitionalagewhichprecededthemthethoughtofourowntimeshasnotoutstrippedlanguageawantofplatosartofmeasuringistherulecauseofthedisproportionbetweentheminthethirdbookoftherepublicanearerapproachismadetoatheoryofartthananywhereelseinplatohisviewsmaybesummedupasfollowstrueartisnotfancifulandimitativebutsimpleandidealtheexpressionofthehighestmoralenergywhetherinactionorreposetoliveamongworksofplasticartwhichareofthisnobleandsimplecharacterortolistentosuchstrainsisthebestofinfluencesthetruegreekatmosphereinwhichyouthshouldbebroughtupthatisthewaytocreateinthemanaturalgoodtastewhichwillhaveafeelingoftruthandbeautyinallthingsforthoughthepoetsaretobeexpelledstillartisrecognizedasanotheraspectofreasonlikeloveinthesymposiumextendingoverthesamespherebutconfinedtothepreliminaryeducationandactingthroughthepowerofhabitandthisconceptionofartisnotlimitedtostrainsofmusicortheformsofplasticartbutpervadesallnatureandhasawidekindredintheworldtherepublicofplatoliketheathensofpericleshasanartisticaswellasapoliticalsidethereishardlyanymentioninplatoofthecreativeartsonlyintwoorthreepassagesdoesheevenalludetothemrepsophheisnotlostinraptureatthegreatworksofphidiastheparthenonthepropyleathestatuesofzeusorathenehewouldprobablyhaveregardedanyabstracttruthofnumberorfigureashigherthanthegreatestofthemyetitishardtosupposethatsomeinfluencesuchashehopestoinspireinyouthdidnotpassintohisownmindfromtheworksofartwhichhesawaroundhimwearelivinguponthefragmentsofthemandfindinafewbrokenstonesthestandardoftruthandbeautybutinplatothisfeelinghasnoexpressionhenowheresaysthatbeautyistheobjectofartheseemstodenythatwisdomcantakeanexternalformphaedrushedoesnotdistinguishthefinefromthemechanicalartswhetherornolikesomewritershefeltmorethanheexpresseditisatanyrateremarkablethatthegreatestperfectionofthefineartsshouldcoincidewithanalmostentiresilenceabouttheminoneverystrikingpassagehetellsusthataworkofartlikethestateisawholeandthisconceptionofawholeandtheloveofthenewlybornmathematicalsciencesmayberegardedifnotastheinspiringatanyrateastheregulatingprinciplesofgreekartxenmemandsophistplatomakesthetrueandsubtleremarkthatthephysicianhadbetternotbeinrobusthealthandshouldhaveknownwhatillnessisinhisownpersonbutthejudgeoughttohavehadnosimilarexperienceofevilheistobeagoodmanwhohavingpassedhisyouthininnocencebecameacquaintedlateinlifewiththevicesofothersandthereforeaccordingtoplatoajudgeshouldnotbeyoungjustasayoungmanaccordingtoaristotleisnotfittobeahearerofmoralphilosophythebadontheotherhandhaveaknowledgeofvicebutnoknowledgeofvirtueitmaybedoubtedhoweverwhetherthistrainofreflectioniswellfoundedinaremarkablepassageofthelawsitisacknowledgedthattheevilmayformacorrectestimateofthegoodtheunionofgentlenessandcourageinbookiiatfirstseemedtobeaparadoxyetwasafterwardsascertainedtobeatruthandplatomightalsohavefoundthattheintuitionofevilmaybeconsistentwiththeabhorrenceofitthereisadirectnessofaiminvirtuewhichgivesaninsightintoviceandtheknowledgeofcharacterisinsomedegreeanaturalsenseindependentofanyspecialexperienceofgoodoreviloneofthemostremarkableconceptionsofplatobecauseungreekandalsoverydifferentfromanythingwhichexistedatallinhisageoftheworldisthetranspositionofranksinthespartanstatetherehadbeenenfranchisementofhelotsanddegradationofcitizensunderspecialcircumstancesandintheancientgreekaristocraciesmeritwascertainlyrecognizedasoneoftheelementsonwhichgovernmentwasbasedthefoundersofstatesweresupposedtobetheirbenefactorswhowereraisedbytheirgreatactionsabovetheordinarylevelofhumanityatalaterperiodtheservicesofwarriorsandlegislatorswereheldtoentitlethemandtheirdescendantstotheprivilegesofcitizenshipandtothefirstrankinthestateandalthoughtheexistenceofanidealaristocracyisslenderlyprovenfromtheremainsofearlygreekhistoryandwehaveadifficultyinascribingsuchacharacterhowevertheideamaybedefinedtoanyactualhellenicstateorindeedtoanystatewhichhaseverexistedintheworldstilltheruleofthebestwascertainlytheaspirationofphilosopherswhoprobablyaccommodatedagooddealtheirviewsofprimitivehistorytotheirownnotionsofgoodgovernmentplatofurtherinsistsonapplyingtotheguardiansofhisstateaseriesoftestsbywhichallthosewhofellshortofafixedstandardwereeitherremovedfromthegoverningbodyornotadmittedtoitandthisacademicdisciplinedidtoacertainextentprevailingreekstatesespeciallyinspartahealsoindicatesthatthesystemofcastewhichexistedinagreatpartoftheancientandisbynomeansextinctinthemoderneuropeanworldshouldbesetasidefromtimetotimeinfavourofmeritheisawarehowdeeplythegreaterpartofmankindresentanyinterferencewiththeorderofsocietyandthereforeheproposeshisnovelideaintheformofwhathehimselfcallsamonstrousfictioncomparetheceremonyofpreparationforthetwogreatwavesinbookvtwoprinciplesareindicatedbyhimfirstthatthereisadistinctionofranksdependentoncircumstancespriortotheindividualsecondthatthisdistinctionisandoughttobebrokenthroughbypersonalqualitiesheadaptsmythologylikethehomericpoemstothewantsofthestatemakingthephoeniciantalethevehicleofhisideaseverygreekstatehadamythrespectingitsownorigintheplatonicrepublicmayalsohaveataleofearthbornmenthegravityandverisimilitudewithwhichthetaleistoldandtheanalogyofgreektraditionareasufficientverificationofthemonstrousfalsehoodancientpoetryhadspokenofagoldandsilverandbrassandironagesucceedingoneanotherbutplatosupposesthesedifferencesinthenaturesofmentoexisttogetherinasinglestatemythologysuppliesafigureunderwhichthelessonmaybetaughtasprotagorassaysthemythismoreinterestingandalsoenablesplatototouchlightlyonnewprincipleswithoutgoingintodetailsinthispassageheshadowsforthageneraltruthbuthedoesnottellusbywhatstepsthetranspositionofranksistobeeffectedindeedthroughouttherepublicheallowsthelowerrankstofadeintothedistancewedonotknowwhethertheyaretocarryarmsandwhetherinthefifthbooktheyareorarenotincludedinthecommunisticregulationsrespectingpropertyandmarriagenoristhereanyuseinarguingstrictlyeitherfromafewchancewordsorfromthesilenceofplatoorindrawinginferenceswhichwerebeyondhisvisionaristotleinhiscriticismonthepositionofthelowerclassesdoesnotperceivethatthepoeticalcreationisliketheairinvulnerableandcannotbepenetratedbytheshaftsofhislogicpoltwoparadoxeswhichstrikethemodernreaderasinthehighestdegreefancifulandidealandwhichsuggesttohimmanyreflectionsaretobefoundinthethirdbookoftherepublicfirstthegreatpowerofmusicsomuchbeyondanyinfluencewhichisexperiencedbyusinmoderntimeswhentheartorsciencehasbeenfarmoredevelopedandhasfoundthesecretofharmonyaswellasofmelodysecondlytheindefiniteandalmostabsolutecontrolwhichthesoulissupposedtoexerciseoverthebodyinthefirstwesuspectsomedegreeofexaggerationsuchaswemayalsoobserveamongcertainmastersoftheartnotunknowntousatthepresentdaywiththisnaturalenthusiasmwhichisfeltbyafewonlythereseemstomingleinplatoasortofpythagoreanreverencefornumbersandnumericalproportiontowhicharistotleisastrangerintervalsofsoundandnumberaretohimsacredthingswhichhavealawoftheirownnotdependentonthevariationsofsensetheyriseabovesenseandbecomeaconnectinglinkwiththeworldofideasbutitisevidentthatplatoisdescribingwhattohimappearstobealsoafactthepowerofasimpleandcharacteristicmelodyontheimpressiblemindofthegreekismorethanwecaneasilyappreciatetheeffectofnationalairsmaybearsomecomparisonwithitandbesidesallthisthereisaconfusionbetweentheharmonyofmusicalnotesandtheharmonyofsoulandbodywhichissopotentlyinspiredbythemthesecondparadoxleadsuptosomecuriousandinterestingquestionshowfarcanthemindcontrolthebodyistherelationbetweenthemoneofmutualantagonismorofmutualharmonyaretheytwooroneandiseitherofthemthecauseoftheothermaywenotattimesdroptheoppositionbetweenthemandthemodeofdescribingthemwhichissofamiliartousandyethardlyconveysanyprecisemeaningandtrytoviewthiscompositecreaturemaninamoresimplemannermustwenotatanyrateadmitthatthereisinhumannatureahigherandalowerprincipledividedbynodistinctlinewhichattimesbreakasunderandtakeuparmsagainstoneanotheroragaintheyarereconciledandmovetogethereitherunconsciouslyintheordinaryworkoflifeorconsciouslyinthepursuitofsomenobleaimtobeattainednotwithoutaneffortandforwhicheverythoughtandnervearestrainedandthenthebodybecomesthegoodfriendorallyorservantorinstrumentofthemindandthemindhasoftenawonderfulandalmostsuperhumanpowerofbanishingdiseaseandweaknessandcallingoutahiddenstrengthreasonandthedesirestheintellectandthesensesarebroughtintoharmonyandobediencesoastoformasinglehumanbeingtheyareeverpartingevermeetingandtheidentityordiversityoftheirtendenciesoroperationsisforthemostpartunnoticedbyuswhenthemindtouchesthebodythroughtheappetitesweacknowledgetheresponsibilityoftheonetotheotherthereisatendencyinuswhichsaysdrinkthereisanotherwhichsaysdonotdrinkitisnotgoodforyouandweallofusknowwhichistherightfulsuperiorwearealsoresponsibleforourhealthalthoughintothisspherethereentersomeelementsofnecessitywhichmaybebeyondourcontrolstilleveninthemanagementofhealthcareandthoughtcontinuedovermanyyearsmaymakeusalmostfreeagentsifwedonotexacttoomuchofourselvesandifweacknowledgethatallhumanfreedomislimitedbythelawsofnatureandofmindwearedisappointedtofindthatplatointhegeneralcondemnationwhichhepassesonthepracticeofmedicineprevailinginhisowndaydepreciatestheeffectsofdiethewouldliketohavediseasesofadefinitecharacterandcapableofreceivingadefinitetreatmentheisafraidofinvalidisminterferingwiththebusinessoflifehedoesnotrecognizethattimeisthegreathealerbothofmentalandbodilydisordersandthatremedieswhicharegradualandproceedlittlebylittlearesaferthanthosewhichproduceasuddencatastropheneitherdoesheseethatthereisnowayinwhichthemindcanmoresurelyinfluencethebodythanbythecontrolofeatinganddrinkingoranyotheractionoroccasionofhumanlifeonwhichthehigherfreedomofthewillcanbemoresimpleortrulyassertedlessermattersofstylemayberemarkedtheaffectedignoranceofmusicwhichisplatoswayofexpressingthatheispassinglightlyoverthesubjectthetentativemannerinwhichhereasinthesecondbookheproceedswiththeconstructionofthestatethedescriptionofthestatesometimesasarealityandthenagainasaworkofimaginationonlythesearetheartsbywhichhesustainsthereadersinterestconnectinglinksorthepreparationfortheentireexpulsionofthepoetsinbookxthecompanionpicturesoftheloveroflitigationandthevaletudinarianthesatiricaljestaboutthemaximofphocylidesthemannerinwhichtheimageofthegoldandsilvercitizensistakenupintothesubjectandtheargumentfromthepracticeofasclepiusshouldnotescapenoticebookivadeimantussaidsupposeapersontoarguesocratesthatyoumakeyourcitizensmiserableandthisbytheirownfreewilltheyarethelordsofthecityandyetinsteadofhavinglikeothermenlandsandhousesandmoneyoftheirowntheyliveasmercenariesandarealwaysmountingguardyoumayaddirepliedthattheyreceivenopaybutonlytheirfoodandhavenomoneytospendonajourneyoramistresswellandwhatanswerdoyougivemyansweristhatourguardiansmayormaynotbethehappiestofmenishouldnotbesurprisedtofindinthelongrunthattheywerebutthisisnottheaimofourconstitutionwhichwasdesignedforthegoodofthewholeandnotofanyonepartifiwenttoasculptorandblamedhimforhavingpaintedtheeyewhichisthenoblestfeatureofthefacenotpurplebutblackhewouldreplytheeyemustbeaneyeandyoushouldlookatthestatueasawholenowicanwellimagineafoolsparadiseinwhicheverybodyiseatinganddrinkingclothedinpurpleandfinelinenandpotterslieonsofasandhavetheirwheelathandthattheymayworkalittlewhentheypleaseandcobblersandalltheotherclassesofastatelosetheirdistinctivecharacterandastatemaygetonwithoutcobblersbutwhentheguardiansdegenerateintobooncompanionsthentheruiniscompleterememberthatwearenottalkingofpeasantskeepingholidaybutofastateinwhicheverymanisexpectedtodohisownworkthehappinessresidesnotinthisorthatclassbutinthestateasawholeihaveanotherremarktomakeamiddleconditionisbestforartisanstheyshouldhavemoneyenoughtobuytoolsandnotenoughtobeindependentofbusinessandwillnotthesameconditionbebestforourcitizensiftheyarepoortheywillbemeanifrichluxuriousandlazyandinneithercasecontentedbutthenhowwillourpoorcitybeabletogotowaragainstanenemywhohasmoneytheremaybeadifficultyinfightingagainstoneenemyagainsttwotherewillbenoneinthefirstplacethecontestwillbecarriedonbytrainedwarriorsagainstwelltodocitizensandisnotaregularathleteaneasymatchfortwostoutopponentsatleastsupposealsothatbeforeengagingwesendambassadorstooneofthetwocitiessayingsilverandgoldwehavenotdoyouhelpusandtakeourshareofthespoilwhowouldfightagainsttheleanwirydogswhentheymightjoinwiththeminpreyinguponthefattedsheepbutifmanystatesjointheirresourcesshallwenotbeindangeriamamusedtohearyouusethewordstateofanybutourownstatetheyarestatesbutnotastatemanyinoneforineverystatetherearetwohostilenationsrichandpoorwhichyoumaysetoneagainsttheotherbutourstatewhilesheremainstruetoherprincipleswillbeinverydeedthemightiestofhellenicstatestothesizeofthestatethereisnolimitbutthenecessityofunityitmustbeneithertoolargenortoosmalltobeonethisisamatterofsecondaryimportanceliketheprincipleoftranspositionwhichwasintimatedintheparableoftheearthbornmenthemeaningthereimpliedwasthateverymanshoulddothatforwhichhewasfittedandbeatonewithhimselfandthenthewholecitywouldbeunitedbutallthesethingsaresecondaryifeducationwhichisthegreatmatterbedulyregardedwhenthewheelhasoncebeensetinmotionthespeedisalwaysincreasingandeachgenerationimprovesupontheprecedingbothinphysicalandmoralqualitiesthecareofthegovernorsshouldbedirectedtopreservemusicandgymnasticfrominnovationalterthesongsofacountrydamonsaysandyouwillsoonendbyalteringitslawsthechangeappearsinnocentatfirstandbeginsinplaybuttheevilsoonbecomesseriousworkingsecretlyuponthecharactersofindividualsthenuponsocialandcommercialrelationsandlastlyupontheinstitutionsofastateandthereisruinandconfusioneverywherebutifeducationremainsintheestablishedformtherewillbenodangerarestorativeprocesswillbealwaysgoingonthespiritoflawandorderwillraiseupwhathasfallendownnorwillanyregulationsbeneededforthelessermattersofliferulesofdeportmentorfashionsofdresslikeinviteslikeforgoodorforevileducationwillcorrectdeficienciesandsupplythepowerofselfgovernmentfarbeitfromustoenterintotheparticularsoflegislationlettheguardianstakecareofeducationandeducationwilltakecareofallotherthingsbutwithouteducationtheymaypatchandmendastheypleasetheywillmakenoprogressanymorethanapatientwhothinkstocurehimselfbysomefavouriteremedyandwillnotgiveuphisluxuriousmodeoflivingifyoutellsuchpersonsthattheymustfirstaltertheirhabitsthentheygrowangrytheyarecharmingpeoplecharmingnaytheveryreverseevidentlythesegentlemenarenotinyourgoodgracesnorthestatewhichislikethemandsuchstatestherearewhichfirstordainunderpenaltyofdeaththatnooneshallaltertheconstitutionandthensufferthemselvestobeflatteredintoandoutofanythingandhewhoindulgesthemandfawnsuponthemistheirleaderandsaviouryesthemenareasbadasthestatesbutdoyounotadmiretheirclevernessnaysomeofthemarestupidenoughtobelievewhatthepeopletellthemandwhenalltheworldistellingamanthatheissixfeethighandhehasnomeasurehowcanhebelieveanythingelsebutdontgetintoapassiontoseeourstatesmentryingtheirnostrumsandfancyingthattheycancutoffatablowthehydralikerogueriesofmankindisasgoodasaplayminuteenactmentsaresuperfluousingoodstatesandareuselessinbadonesandnowwhatremainsoftheworkoflegislationnothingforusbuttoapollothegodofdelphiweleavetheorderingofthegreatestofallthingsthatistosayreligiononlyourancestraldeitysittinguponthecentreandnaveloftheearthwillbetrustedbyusifwehaveanysenseinanaffairofsuchmagnitudenoforeigngodshallbesupremeinourrealmshereassocrateswouldsayletusreflectongreekwhathasprecededthusfarwehavespokennotofthehappinessofthecitizensbutonlyofthewellbeingofthestatetheymaybethehappiestofmenbutourprincipalaiminfoundingthestatewasnottomakethemhappytheyweretobeguardiansnotholidaymakersinthispleasantmannerispresentedtousthefamousquestionbothofancientandmodernphilosophytouchingtherelationofdutytohappinessofrighttoutilityfirstdutythenhappinessisthenaturalorderofourmoralideastheutilitarianprincipleisvaluableasacorrectiveoferrorandshowstousasideofethicswhichisapttobeneglecteditmaybeadmittedfurtherthatrightandutilityarecoextensiveandthathewhomakesthehappinessofmankindhisobjecthasoneofthehighestandnoblestmotivesofhumanactionbututilityisnotthehistoricalbasisofmoralitynortheaspectinwhichmoralandreligiousideascommonlyoccurtothemindthegreatesthappinessofallisaswebelievethefaroffresultofthedivinegovernmentoftheuniversethegreatesthappinessoftheindividualiscertainlytobefoundinalifeofvirtueandgoodnessbutweseemtobemoreassuredofalawofrightthanwecanbeofadivinepurposethatallmankindshouldbesavedandweinfertheonefromtheotherandthegreatesthappinessoftheindividualmaybethereverseofthegreatesthappinessintheordinarysenseofthetermandmayberealisedinalifeofpainorinavoluntarydeathfurtherthewordhappinesshasseveralambiguitiesitmaymeaneitherpleasureoranideallifehappinesssubjectiveorobjectiveinthisworldorinanotherofourselvesonlyorofourneighboursandofallmeneverywherebythemodernfounderofutilitarianismtheselfregardinganddisinterestedmotivesofactionareincludedunderthesametermalthoughtheyarecommonlyopposedbyusasbenevolenceandselflovethewordhappinesshasnotthedefinitenessorthesacrednessoftruthandrightitdoesnotequallyappealtoourhighernatureandhasnotsunkintotheconscienceofmankinditisassociatedtoomuchwiththecomfortsandconveniencesoflifetoolittlewiththegoodsofthesoulwhichwedesirefortheirownsakeinagreattrialordangerortemptationorinanygreatandheroicactionitisscarcelythoughtofforthesereasonsthegreatesthappinessprincipleisnotthetruefoundationofethicsbutthoughnotthefirstprincipleitisthesecondwhichislikeuntoitandisoftenofeasierapplicationforthelargerpartofhumanactionsareneitherrightnorwrongexceptinsofarastheytendtothehappinessofmankindintrodtogorgiasandphilebusthesamequestionreappearsinpoliticswheretheusefulorexpedientseemstoclaimalargersphereandtohaveagreaterauthorityforconcerningpoliticalmeasureswechieflyaskhowwilltheyaffectthehappinessofmankindyetheretoowemayobservethatwhatwetermexpediencyismerelythelawofrightlimitedbytheconditionsofhumansocietyrightandtrutharethehighestaimsofgovernmentaswellasofindividualsandweoughtnottolosesightofthembecausewecannotdirectlyenforcethemtheyappealtothebettermindofnationsandsometimestheyaretoomuchformerelytemporalintereststoresisttheyarethewatchwordswhichallmenuseinmattersofpublicpolicyaswellasintheirprivatedealingsthepeaceofeuropemaybesaidtodependupontheminthemostcommercialandutilitarianstatesofsocietythepowerofideasremainsandallthehigherclassofstatesmenhaveinthemsomethingofthatidealismwhichpericlesissaidtohavegatheredfromtheteachingofanaxagorastheyrecognisethatthetrueleaderofmenmustbeabovethemotivesofambitionandthatnationalcharacterisofgreatervaluethanmaterialcomfortandprosperityandthisistheorderofthoughtinplatofirstheexpectshiscitizenstodotheirdutyandthenunderfavourablecircumstancesthatistosayinawellorderedstatetheirhappinessisassuredthathewasfarfromexcludingthemodernprincipleofutilityinpoliticsissufficientlyevidentfromotherpassagesinwhichthemostbeneficialisaffirmedtobethemosthonourableandalsothemostsacredwemaynotethemannerinwhichtheobjectionofadeimantushereisdesignedtodrawoutanddeepentheargumentofsocratestheconceptionofawholeaslyingatthefoundationbothofpoliticsandofartinthelattersupplyingtheonlyprincipleofcriticismwhichunderthevariousnamesofharmonysymmetrymeasureproportionunitythegreekseemstohaveappliedtoworksofarttherequirementthatthestateshouldbelimitedinsizeafterthetraditionalmodelofagreekstateasinthepoliticsofaristotlethefactthatthecitiesofhellasweresmallisconvertedintoaprinciplethehumorouspicturesoftheleandogsandthefattedsheepofthelightactiveboxerupsettingtwostoutgentlemenatleastofthecharmingpatientswhoarealwaysmakingthemselvesworseoragaintheplayfulassumptionthatthereisnostatebutourownorthegraveironywithwhichthestatesmanisexcusedwhobelievesthatheissixfeethighbecauseheistoldsoandhavingnothingtomeasurewithistobepardonedforhisignoranceheistooamusingforustobeseriouslyangrywithhimthelightandsuperficialmannerinwhichreligionispassedoverwhenprovisionhasbeenmadefortwogreatprinciplesfirstthatreligionshallbebasedonthehighestconceptionofthegodssecondlythatthetruenationalorhellenictypeshallbemaintainedsocratesproceedsbutwhereamidallthisisjusticesonofaristontellmewherelightacandleandsearchthecityandgetyourbrotherandtherestofourfriendstohelpinseekingforherthatwontdorepliedglauconyouyourselfpromisedtomakethesearchandtalkedabouttheimpietyofdesertingjusticewellisaidiwillleadthewaybutdoyoufollowmynotionisthatourstatebeingperfectwillcontainallthefourvirtueswisdomcouragetemperancejusticeifweeliminatethethreefirsttheunknownremainderwillbejusticefirstthenofwisdomthestatewhichwehavecalledintobeingwillbewisebecausepoliticandpolicyisoneamongmanykindsofskillnottheskillofthecarpenteroroftheworkerinmetalorofthehusbandmanbuttheskillofhimwhoadvisesabouttheinterestsofthewholestateofsuchakindistheskilloftheguardianswhoareasmallclassinnumberfarsmallerthantheblacksmithsbutinthemisconcentratedthewisdomofthestateandifthissmallrulingclasshavewisdomthenthewholestatewillbewiseoursecondvirtueiscouragewhichwehavenodifficultyinfindinginanotherclassthatofsoldierscouragemaybedefinedasasortofsalvationtheneverfailingsalvationoftheopinionswhichlawandeducationhaveprescribedconcerningdangersyouknowthewayinwhichdyersfirstpreparethewhitegroundandthenlayonthedyeofpurpleorofanyothercolourcoloursdyedinthiswaybecomefixedandnosoaporlyewilleverwashthemoutnowthegroundiseducationandthelawsarethecoloursandifthegroundisproperlylaidneitherthesoapofpleasurenorthelyeofpainorfearwilleverwashthemoutthispowerwhichpreservesrightopinionaboutdangeriwouldaskyoutocallcourageaddingtheepithetpoliticalorcivilizedinordertodistinguishitfrommereanimalcourageandfromahighercouragewhichmayhereafterbediscussedtwovirtuesremaintemperanceandjusticemorethantheprecedingvirtuestemperancesuggeststheideaofharmonysomelightisthrownuponthenatureofthisvirtuebythepopulardescriptionofamanasmasterofhimselfwhichhasanabsurdsoundbecausethemasterisalsotheservanttheexpressionreallymeansthatthebetterprincipleinamanmasterstheworsethereareincitieswholeclasseswomenslavesandthelikewhocorrespondtotheworseandafewonlytothebetterandinourstatetheformerclassareheldundercontrolbythelatternowtowhichoftheseclassesdoestemperancebelongtobothofthemandourstateifanywillbetheabodeoftemperanceandwewererightindescribingthisvirtueasaharmonywhichisdiffusedthroughthewholemakingthedwellersinthecitytobeofonemindandattuningtheupperandmiddleandlowerclasseslikethestringsofaninstrumentwhetheryousupposethemtodifferinwisdomstrengthorwealthandnowwearenearthespotletusdrawinandsurroundthecoverandwatchwithalloureyeslestjusticeshouldslipawayandescapetellmeifyouseethethicketmovefirstnayiwouldhaveyouleadwellthenofferupaprayerandfollowthewayisdarkanddifficultbutwemustpushonibegintoseeatrackgoodnewswhyglauconourdulnessofscentisquiteludicrouswhilewearestrainingoureyesintothedistancejusticeistumblingoutatourfeetweareasbadaspeoplelookingforathingwhichtheyhaveintheirhandshaveyouforgottenouroldprincipleofthedivisionoflabourorofeverymandoinghisownbusinessconcerningwhichwespokeatthefoundationofthestatewhatbutthiswasjusticeisthereanyothervirtueremainingwhichcancompetewithwisdomandtemperanceandcourageinthescaleofpoliticalvirtueforeveryonehavinghisownisthegreatobjectofgovernmentandthegreatobjectoftradeisthateverymanshoulddohisownbusinessnotthatthereismuchharminacarpentertryingtobeacobbleroracobblertransforminghimselfintoacarpenterbutgreatevilmayarisefromthecobblerleavinghislastandturningintoaguardianorlegislatororwhenasingleindividualistrainerwarriorlegislatorallinoneandthisevilisinjusticeoreverymandoinganothersbusinessidonotsaythatasyetweareinaconditiontoarriveatafinalconclusionforthedefinitionwhichwebelievetoholdgoodinstateshasstilltobetestedbytheindividualhavingreadthelargeletterswewillnowcomebacktothesmallfromthetwotogetherabrilliantlightmaybestruckoutsocratesproceedstodiscoverthenatureofjusticebyamethodofresidueseachofthefirstthreevirtuescorrespondstooneofthethreepartsofthesoulandoneofthethreeclassesinthestatealthoughthethirdtemperancehasmoreofthenatureofaharmonythanthefirsttwoiftherebeafourthvirtuethatcanonlybesoughtforintherelationofthethreepartsinthesoulorclassesinthestatetooneanotheritisobviousandsimpleandforthatveryreasonhasnotbeenfoundoutthemodernlogicianwillbeinclinedtoobjectthatideascannotbeseparatedlikechemicalsubstancesbutthattheyrunintooneanotherandmaybeonlydifferentaspectsornamesofthesamethingandsuchinthisinstanceappearstobethecaseforthedefinitionheregivenofjusticeisverballythesameasoneofthedefinitionsoftemperancegivenbysocratesinthecharmideswhichhoweverisonlyprovisionalandisafterwardsrejectedandsofarfromjusticeremainingoverwhentheothervirtuesareeliminatedthejusticeandtemperanceoftherepubliccanwithdifficultybedistinguishedtemperanceappearstobethevirtueofapartonlyandoneofthreewhereasjusticeisauniversalvirtueofthewholesoulyetontheotherhandtemperanceisalsodescribedasasortofharmonyandinthisrespectisakintojusticejusticeseemstodifferfromtemperanceindegreeratherthaninkindwhereastemperanceistheharmonyofdiscordantelementsjusticeistheperfectorderbywhichallnaturesandclassesdotheirownbusinesstherightmanintherightplacethedivisionandcooperationofallthecitizensjusticeagainisamoreabstractnotionthantheothervirtuesandthereforefromplatospointofviewthefoundationofthemtowhichtheyarereferredandwhichinideaprecedesthemtheproposaltoomittemperanceisameretrickofstyleintendedtoavoidmonotonythereisafamousquestiondiscussedinoneoftheearlierdialoguesofplatoprotagorasaristnicethicswhetherthevirtuesareoneormanythisreceivesananswerwhichistotheeffectthattherearefourcardinalvirtuesnowforthefirsttimebroughttogetherinethicalphilosophyandonesupremeovertherestwhichisnotlikearistotlesconceptionofuniversaljusticevirtuerelativetoothersbutthewholeofvirtuerelativetothepartstothisuniversalconceptionofjusticeororderinthefirsteducationandinthemoralnatureofmanthestillmoreuniversalconceptionofthegoodinthesecondeducationandinthesphereofspeculativeknowledgeseemstosucceedbothmightbeequallydescribedbythetermslaworderharmonybutwhiletheideaofgoodembracesalltimeandallexistencetheconceptionofjusticeisnotextendedbeyondmansocratesisnowgoingtoidentifytheindividualandthestatebutfirsthemustprovethattherearethreepartsoftheindividualsoulhisargumentisasfollowsquantitymakesnodifferenceinqualitythewordjustwhetherappliedtotheindividualortothestatehasthesamemeaningandthetermjusticeimpliedthatthesamethreeprinciplesinthestateandintheindividualweredoingtheirownbusinessbutaretheyreallythreeoronethequestionisdifficultandonewhichcanhardlybesolvedbythemethodswhichwearenowusingbutthetruerandlongerwaywouldtakeuptoomuchofourtimetheshorterwillsatisfymewellthenyouwouldadmitthatthequalitiesofstatesmeanthequalitiesoftheindividualswhocomposethemthescythiansandthraciansarepassionateourownraceintellectualandtheegyptiansandphoenicianscovetousbecausetheindividualmembersofeachhavesuchandsuchacharacterthedifficultyistodeterminewhethertheseveralprinciplesareoneorthreewhetherthatistosaywereasonwithonepartofournaturedesirewithanotherareangrywithanotherorwhetherthewholesoulcomesintoplayineachsortofactionthisenquiryhoweverrequiresaveryexactdefinitionoftermsthesamethinginthesamerelationcannotbeaffectedintwooppositewaysbutthereisnoimpossibilityinamanstandingstillyetmovinghisarmsorinatopwhichisfixedononespotgoingrounduponitsaxisthereisnonecessitytomentionallthepossibleexceptionsletusprovisionallyassumethatoppositescannotdoorbeorsufferoppositesinthesamerelationandtotheclassofoppositesbelongassentanddissentdesireandavoidanceandoneformofdesireisthirstandhungerandherearisesanewpointthirstisthirstofdrinkhungerishungeroffoodnotofwarmdrinkorofaparticularkindoffoodwiththesingleexceptionofcoursethattheveryfactofourdesiringanythingimpliesthatitisgoodwhenrelativetermshavenoattributestheircorrelativeshavenoattributeswhentheyhaveattributestheircorrelativesalsohavethemforexamplethetermgreaterissimplyrelativetolessandknowledgereferstoasubjectofknowledgebutontheotherhandaparticularknowledgeisofaparticularsubjectagaineverysciencehasadistinctcharacterwhichisdefinedbyanobjectmedicineforexampleisthescienceofhealthalthoughnottobeconfoundedwithhealthhavingclearedourideasthusfarletusreturntotheoriginalinstanceofthirstwhichhasadefiniteobjectdrinknowthethirstysoulmayfeeltwodistinctimpulsestheanimalonesayingdrinktherationalonewhichsaysdonotdrinkthetwoimpulsesarecontradictoryandthereforewemayassumethattheyspringfromdistinctprinciplesinthesoulbutispassionathirdprincipleorakintodesirethereisastoryofacertainleontiuswhichthrowssomelightonthisquestionhewascomingupfromthepiraeusoutsidethenorthwallandhepassedaspotwherethereweredeadbodieslyingbytheexecutionerhefeltalongingdesiretoseethemandalsoanabhorrenceofthematfirstheturnedawayandshuthiseyesthensuddenlytearingthemopenhesaidtakeyourfillyewretchesofthefairsightnowistherenothereathirdprinciplewhichisoftenfoundtocometotheassistanceofreasonagainstdesirebutneverofdesireagainstreasonthisispassionorspiritoftheseparateexistenceofwhichwemayfurtherconvinceourselvesbyputtingthefollowingcasewhenamansuffersjustlyifhebeofagenerousnatureheisnotindignantatthehardshipswhichheundergoesbutwhenhesuffersunjustlyhisindignationishisgreatsupporthungerandthirstcannottamehimthespiritwithinhimmustdoordieuntilthevoiceoftheshepherdthatisofreasonbiddinghisdogbarknomoreisheardwithinthisshowsthatpassionistheallyofreasonispassionthenthesamewithreasonnofortheformerexistsinchildrenandbrutesandhomeraffordsaproofofthedistinctionbetweenthemwhenhesayshesmotehisbreastandthusrebukedhissoulandnowatlastwehavereachedfirmgroundandareabletoinferthatthevirtuesofthestateandoftheindividualarethesameforwisdomandcourageandjusticeinthestateareseverallythewisdomandcourageandjusticeintheindividualswhoformthestateeachofthethreeclasseswilldotheworkofitsownclassinthestateandeachpartintheindividualsoulreasonthesuperiorandpassiontheinferiorwillbeharmonizedbytheinfluenceofmusicandgymnasticthecounsellorandthewarriortheheadandthearmwillacttogetherinthetownofmansoulandkeepthedesiresinpropersubjectionthecourageofthewarrioristhatqualitywhichpreservesarightopinionaboutdangersinspiteofpleasuresandpainsthewisdomofthecounselloristhatsmallpartofthesoulwhichhasauthorityandreasonthevirtueoftemperanceisthefriendshipoftherulingandthesubjectprinciplesbothinthestateandintheindividualofjusticewehavealreadyspokenandthenotionalreadygivenofitmaybeconfirmedbycommoninstanceswillthejuststateorthejustindividualstealliecommitadulteryorbeguiltyofimpietytogodsandmennoandisnotthereasonofthisthattheseveralprincipleswhetherinthestateorintheindividualdotheirownbusinessandjusticeisthequalitywhichmakesjustmenandjuststatesmoreoverourolddivisionoflabourwhichrequiredthatthereshouldbeonemanforoneusewasadreamoranticipationofwhatwastofollowandthatdreamhasnowbeenrealizedinjusticewhichbeginsbybindingtogetherthethreechordsofthesoulandthenactsharmoniouslyineveryrelationoflifeandinjusticewhichistheinsubordinationanddisobedienceoftheinferiorelementsinthesoulistheoppositeofjusticeandisinharmoniousandunnaturalbeingtothesoulwhatdiseaseistothebodyforinthesoulaswellasinthebodygoodorbadactionsproducegoodorbadhabitsandvirtueisthehealthandbeautyandwellbeingofthesoulandviceisthediseaseandweaknessanddeformityofthesoulagaintheoldquestionreturnsuponusisjusticeorinjusticethemoreprofitablethequestionhasbecomeridiculousforinjusticelikemortaldiseasemakeslifenotworthhavingcomeupwithmetothehillwhichoverhangsthecityandlookdownuponthesingleformofvirtueandtheinfiniteformsofviceamongwhicharefourspecialonescharacteristicbothofstatesandofindividualsandthestatewhichcorrespondstothesingleformofvirtueisthatwhichwehavebeendescribingwhereinreasonrulesunderoneoftwonamesmonarchyandaristocracythustherearefiveformsinallbothofstatesandofsoulsinattemptingtoprovethatthesoulhasthreeseparatefacultiesplatotakesoccasiontodiscusswhatmakesdifferenceoffacultiesandthecriterionwhichheproposesisdifferenceintheworkingofthefacultiesthesamefacultycannotproducecontradictoryeffectsbutthepathofearlyreasonersisbesetbythornyentanglementsandhewillnotproceedastepwithoutfirstclearingthegroundthisleadshimintoatiresomedigressionwhichisintendedtoexplainthenatureofcontradictionfirstthecontradictionmustbeatthesametimeandinthesamerelationsecondlynoextraneouswordmustbeintroducedintoeitherofthetermsinwhichthecontradictorypropositionisexpressedforexamplethirstisofdrinknotofwarmdrinkheimplieswhathedoesnotsaythatifbytheadviceofreasonorbytheimpulseofangeramanisrestrainedfromdrinkingthisprovesthatthirstordesireunderwhichthirstisincludedisdistinctfromangerandreasonbutsupposethatweallowthetermthirstordesiretobemodifiedandsayanangrythirstorarevengefuldesirethenthetwospheresofdesireandangeroverlapandbecomeconfusedthiscasethereforehastobeexcludedandstillthereremainsanexceptiontotheruleintheuseofthetermgoodwhichisalwaysimpliedintheobjectofdesirethesearethediscussionsofanagebeforelogicandanyonewhoisweariedbythemshouldrememberthattheyarenecessarytotheclearingupofideasinthefirstdevelopmentofthehumanfacultiesthepsychologyofplatoextendsnofurtherthanthedivisionofthesoulintotherationalirascibleandconcupiscentelementswhichasfarasweknowwasfirstmadebyhimandhasbeenretainedbyaristotleandsucceedingethicalwritersthechiefdifficultyinthisearlyanalysisofthemindistodefineexactlytheplaceoftheirasciblefacultygreekwhichmaybevariouslydescribedunderthetermsrighteousindignationspiritpassionitisthefoundationofcouragewhichincludesinplatomoralcouragethecourageofenduringpainandofsurmountingintellectualdifficultiesaswellasofmeetingdangersinwarthoughirrationalitinclinestosidewiththerationalitcannotbearousedbypunishmentwhenjustlyinflicteditsometimestakestheformofanenthusiasmwhichsustainsamanintheperformanceofgreatactionsitisthelionheartwithwhichthereasonmakesatreatyontheotherhanditisnegativeratherthanpositiveitisindignantatwrongorfalsehoodbutdoesnotlikeloveinthesymposiumandphaedrusaspiretothevisionoftruthorgooditistheperemptorymilitaryspiritwhichprevailsinthegovernmentofhonouritdiffersfromangergreekthislattertermhavingnoaccessorynotionofrighteousindignationalthougharistotlehasretainedthewordyetwemayobservethatpassiongreekhaswithhimlostitsaffinitytotherationalandhasbecomeindistinguishablefromangergreekandtothisvernacularuseplatohimselfinthelawsseemstorevertthoughnotalwaysbymodernphilosophytooaswellasinourordinaryconversationthewordsangerorpassionareemployedalmostexclusivelyinabadsensethereisnoconnotationofajustorreasonablecausebywhichtheyarearousedthefeelingofrighteousindignationistoopartialandaccidentaltoadmitofourregardingitasaseparatevirtueorhabitwearetemptedalsotodoubtwhetherplatoisrightinsupposingthatanoffenderhoweverjustlycondemnedcouldbeexpectedtoacknowledgethejusticeofhissentencethisisthespiritofaphilosopherormartyrratherthanofacriminalwemayobservehownearlyplatoapproachesaristotlesfamousthesisthatgoodactionsproducegoodhabitsthewordsashealthypracticesgreekproducehealthsodojustpracticesproducejusticehaveasoundverylikethenicomacheanethicsbutwenotealsothatanincidentalremarkinplatohasbecomeafarreachingprincipleinaristotleandaninseparablepartofagreatethicalsystemthereisadifficultyinunderstandingwhatplatomeantbythelongerwayheseemstointimatesomemetaphysicofthefuturewhichwillnotbesatisfiedwitharguingfromtheprincipleofcontradictioninthesixthandseventhbookscomparesophistandparmenideshehasgivenusasketchofsuchametaphysicbutwhenglauconasksforthefinalrevelationoftheideaofgoodheisputoffwiththedeclarationthathehasnotyetstudiedthepreliminaryscienceshowhewouldhavefilledupthesketchorarguedaboutsuchquestionsfromahigherpointofviewwecanonlyconjectureperhapshehopedtofindsomeapriorimethodofdevelopingthepartsoutofthewholeorhemighthaveaskedwhichoftheideascontainstheotherideasandpossiblyhavestumbledonthehegelianidentityoftheegoandtheuniversalorhemayhaveimaginedthatideasmightbeconstructedinsomemanneranalogoustotheconstructionoffiguresandnumbersinthemathematicalsciencesthemostcertainandnecessarytruthwastoplatotheuniversalandtothishewasalwaysseekingtoreferallknowledgeoropinionjustasinmoderntimesweseektorestthemontheoppositepoleofinductionandexperiencetheaspirationsofmetaphysicianshavealwaystendedtopassbeyondthelimitsofhumanthoughtandlanguagetheyseemtohavereachedaheightatwhichtheyaremovingaboutinworldsunrealizedandtheirconceptionsalthoughprofoundlyaffectingtheirownmindsbecomeinvisibleorunintelligibletootherswearenotthereforesurprizedtofindthatplatohimselfhasnowhereclearlyexplainedhisdoctrineofideasorthathisschoolinalatergenerationlikehiscontemporariesglauconandadeimantuswereunabletofollowhiminthisregionofspeculationinthesophistwhereheisrefutingthescepticismwhichmaintainedeitherthattherewasnosuchthingaspredicationorthatallmightbepredicatedofallhearrivesattheconclusionthatsomeideascombinewithsomebutnotallwithallbuthemakesonlyoneortwostepsforwardonthispathhenowhereattainstoanyconnectedsystemofideasoreventoaknowledgeofthemostelementaryrelationsofthesciencestooneanotherbookviwasgoingtoenumeratethefourformsofviceordeclineinstateswhenpolemarchushewassittingalittlefartherfrommethanadeimantustakinghimbythecoatandleaningtowardshimsaidsomethinginanundertoneofwhichionlycaughtthewordsshallwelethimoffcertainlynotsaidadeimantusraisinghisvoicewhomisaidareyounotgoingtoletoffyouhesaidwhybecausewethinkthatyouarenotdealingfairlywithusinomittingwomenandchildrenofwhomyouhaveslilydisposedunderthegeneralformulathatfriendshaveallthingsincommonandwasinotrightyesherepliedbuttherearemanysortsofcommunismorcommunityandwewanttoknowwhichofthemisrightthecompanyasyouhavejustheardareresolvedtohaveafurtherexplanationthrasymachussaiddoyouthinkthatwehavecomehithertodigforgoldortohearyoudiscourseyesisaidbutthediscourseshouldbeofareasonablelengthglauconaddedyessocratesandthereisreasoninspendingthewholeoflifeinsuchdiscussionsbutpraywithoutmoreadotellushowthiscommunityistobecarriedoutandhowtheintervalbetweenbirthandeducationistobefilledupwellisaidthesubjecthasseveraldifficultieswhatispossibleisthefirstquestionwhatisdesirableisthesecondfearnotherepliedforyouarespeakingamongfriendsthatirepliedisasorryconsolationishalldestroymyfriendsaswellasmyselfnotthatimindalittleinnocentlaughterbuthewhokillsthetruthisamurdererthensaidglauconlaughingincaseyoushouldmurderuswewillacquityoubeforehandandyoushallbeheldfreefromtheguiltofdeceivingussocratesproceedstheguardiansofourstatearetobewatchdogsaswehavealreadysaidnowdogsarenotdividedintohesandsheswedonottakethemasculinegenderouttohuntandleavethefemalesathometolookaftertheirpuppiestheyhavethesameemploymentstheonlydifferencebetweenthemisthattheonesexisstrongerandtheotherweakerbutifwomenaretohavethesameemploymentsasmentheymusthavethesameeducationtheymustbetaughtmusicandgymnasticsandtheartofwariknowthatagreatjokewillbemadeoftheirridingonhorsebackandcarryingweaponsthesightofthenakedoldwrinkledwomenshowingtheiragilityinthepalaestrawillcertainlynotbeavisionofbeautyandmaybeexpectedtobecomeafamousjestbutwemustnotmindthewitstherewasatimewhentheymighthavelaughedatourpresentgymnasticsallishabitpeoplehaveatlastfoundoutthattheexposureisbetterthantheconcealmentofthepersonandnowtheylaughnomoreevilonlyshouldbethesubjectofridiculethefirstquestioniswhetherwomenareableeitherwhollyorpartiallytoshareintheemploymentsofmenandherewemaybechargedwithinconsistencyinmakingtheproposalatallforwestartedoriginallywiththedivisionoflabourandthediversityofemploymentswasbasedonthedifferenceofnaturesbutistherenodifferencebetweenmenandwomennayaretheynotwhollydifferenttherewasthedifficultyglauconwhichmademeunwillingtospeakoffamilyrelationshoweverwhenamanisoutofhisdepthwhetherinapoolorinanoceanhecanonlyswimforhislifeandwemusttrytofindawayofescapeifwecantheargumentisthatdifferentnatureshavedifferentusesandthenaturesofmenandwomenaresaidtodifferbutthisisonlyaverbaloppositionwedonotconsiderthatthedifferencemaybepurelynominalandaccidentalforexampleabaldmanandahairymanareopposedinasinglepointofviewbutyoucannotinferthatbecauseabaldmanisacobblerahairymanoughtnottobeacobblernowwhyissuchaninferenceerroneoussimplybecausetheoppositionbetweenthemispartialonlylikethedifferencebetweenamalephysicianandafemalephysiciannotrunningthroughthewholenaturelikethedifferencebetweenaphysicianandacarpenterandifthedifferenceofthesexesisonlythattheonebegetandtheotherbearchildrenthisdoesnotprovethattheyoughttohavedistincteducationsadmittingthatwomendifferfrommenincapacitydonotmenequallydifferfromoneanotherhasnotnaturescatteredallthequalitieswhichourcitizensrequireindifferentlyupanddownamongthetwosexesandevenintheirpeculiarpursuitsarenotwomenoftenthoughinsomecasessuperiortomenridiculouslyenoughsurpassedbythemwomenarethesameinkindasmenandhavethesameaptitudeorwantofaptitudeformedicineorgymnasticorwarbutinalessdegreeonewomanwillbeagoodguardiananothernotandthegoodmustbechosentobethecolleaguesofourguardiansifhowevertheirnaturesarethesametheinferenceisthattheireducationmustalsobethesamethereisnolongeranythingunnaturalorimpossibleinawomanlearningmusicandgymnasticandtheeducationwhichwegivethemwillbetheverybestfarsuperiortothatofcobblersandwilltrainuptheverybestwomenandnothingcanbemoreadvantageoustothestatethanthisthereforeletthemstripclothedintheirchastityandshareinthetoilsofwarandinthedefenceoftheircountryhewholaughsatthemisafoolforhispainsthefirstwaveispastandtheargumentiscompelledtoadmitthatmenandwomenhavecommondutiesandpursuitsasecondandgreaterwaveisrollingincommunityofwivesandchildrenisthiseitherexpedientorpossibletheexpediencyidonotdoubtiamnotsosureofthepossibilitynayithinkthataconsiderabledoubtwillbeentertainedonbothpointsimeanttohaveescapedthetroubleofprovingthefirstbutasyouhavedetectedthelittlestratagemimustevensubmitonlyallowmetofeedmyfancylikethesolitaryinhiswalkswithadreamofwhatmightbeandtheniwillreturntothequestionofwhatcanbeinthefirstplaceourrulerswillenforcethelawsandmakenewoneswheretheyarewantedandtheiralliesorministerswillobeyyouaslegislatorhavealreadyselectedthemenandnowyoushallselectthewomenaftertheselectionhasbeenmadetheywilldwellincommonhousesandhavetheirmealsincommonandwillbebroughttogetherbyanecessitymorecertainthanthatofmathematicsbuttheycannotbeallowedtoliveinlicentiousnessthatisanunholythingwhichtherulersaredeterminedtopreventfortheavoidanceofthisholymarriagefestivalswillbeinstitutedandtheirholinesswillbeinproportiontotheirusefulnessandhereglauconishouldliketoaskasiknowthatyouareabreederofbirdsandanimalsdoyounottakethegreatestcareinthematingcertainlyandthereisnoreasontosupposethatlesscareisrequiredinthemarriageofhumanbeingsbutthenourrulersmustbeskilfulphysiciansofthestatefortheywilloftenneedastrongdoseoffalsehoodinordertobringaboutdesirableunionsbetweentheirsubjectsthegoodmustbepairedwiththegoodandthebadwiththebadandtheoffspringoftheonemustberearedandoftheotherdestroyedinthiswaytheflockwillbepreservedinprimeconditionhymenealfestivalswillbecelebratedattimesfixedwithaneyetopopulationandthebridesandbridegroomswillmeetatthemandbyaningenioussystemoflotstherulerswillcontrivethatthebraveandthefaircometogetherandthatthoseofinferiorbreedarepairedwithinferiorsthelatterwillascribetochancewhatisreallytheinventionoftherulersandwhenchildrenareborntheoffspringofthebraveandfairwillbecarriedtoanenclosureinacertainpartofthecityandthereattendedbysuitablenursestherestwillbehurriedawaytoplacesunknownthemotherswillbebroughttothefoldandwillsucklethechildrencarehowevermustbetakenthatnoneofthemrecognisetheirownoffspringandifnecessaryothernursesmayalsobehiredthetroubleofwatchingandgettingupatnightwillbetransferredtoattendantsthenthewivesofourguardianswillhaveafineeasytimewhentheyarehavingchildrenandquiterighttooisaidthattheyshouldtheparentsoughttobeintheprimeoflifewhichforamanmaybereckonedatthirtyyearsfromtwentyfivewhenhehaspassedthepointatwhichthespeedoflifeisgreatesttofiftyfiveandattwentyyearsforawomanfromtwentytofortyanyoneaboveorbelowthoseageswhopartakesinthehymenealsshallbeguiltyofimpietyalsoeveryonewhoformsamarriageconnexionatothertimeswithouttheconsentoftherulersthislatterregulationappliestothosewhoarewithinthespecifiedagesafterwhichtheymayrangeatwillprovidedtheyavoidtheprohibiteddegreesofparentsandchildrenorofbrothersandsisterswhichlasthoweverarenotabsolutelyprohibitedifadispensationbeprocuredbuthowshallweknowthedegreesofaffinitywhenallthingsarecommontheansweristhatbrothersandsistersareallsuchasarebornsevenorninemonthsaftertheespousalsandtheirparentsthosewhoarethenespousedandeveryonewillhavemanychildrenandeverychildmanyparentssocratesproceedsihavenowtoprovethatthisschemeisadvantageousandalsoconsistentwithourentirepolitythegreatestgoodofastateisunitythegreatestevildiscordanddistractionandtherewillbeunitywheretherearenoprivatepleasuresorpainsorinterestswhereifonemembersuffersallthememberssufferifonecitizenistouchedallarequicklysensitiveandtheleasthurttothelittlefingerofthestaterunsthroughthewholebodyandvibratestothesoulforthetruestatelikeanindividualisinjuredasawholewhenanypartisaffectedeverystatehassubjectsandrulerswhoinademocracyarecalledrulersandinotherstatesmastersbutinourstatetheyarecalledsavioursandalliesandthesubjectswhoinotherstatesaretermedslavesarebyustermednurturersandpaymastersandthosewhoaretermedcomradesandcolleaguesinotherplacesarebyuscalledfathersandbrothersandwhereasinotherstatesmembersofthesamegovernmentregardoneoftheircolleaguesasafriendandanotherasanenemyinourstatenomanisastrangertoanotherforeverycitizenisconnectedwitheveryotherbytiesofbloodandthesenamesandthiswayofspeakingwillhaveacorrespondingrealitybrotherfathersistermotherrepeatedfrominfancyintheearsofchildrenwillnotbemerewordsthenagainthecitizenswillhaveallthingsincommoninhavingcommonpropertytheywillhavecommonpleasuresandpainscantherebestrifeandcontentionamongthosewhoareofonemindorlawsuitsaboutpropertywhenmenhavenothingbuttheirbodieswhichtheycalltheirownorsuitsaboutviolencewheneveryoneisboundtodefendhimselfthepermissiontostrikewheninsultedwillbeanantidotetotheknifeandwillpreventdisturbancesinthestatebutnoyoungermanwillstrikeanelderreverencewillpreventhimfromlayinghandsonhiskindredandhewillfearthattherestofthefamilymayretaliatemoreoverourcitizenswillberidofthelesserevilsoflifetherewillbenoflatteryoftherichnosordidhouseholdcaresnoborrowingandnotpayingcomparedwiththecitizensofotherstatesourswillbeolympicvictorsandcrownedwithblessingsgreaterstilltheyandtheirchildrenhavingabettermaintenanceduringlifeandafterdeathanhonourableburialnorhasthehappinessoftheindividualbeensacrificedtothehappinessofthestateourolympicvictorhasnotbeenturnedintoacobblerbuthehasahappinessbeyondthatofanycobbleratthesametimeifanyconceitedyouthbeginstodreamofappropriatingthestatetohimselfhemustberemindedthathalfisbetterthanthewholeishouldcertainlyadvisehimtostaywhereheiswhenhehasthepromiseofsuchabravelifebutissuchacommunitypossibleasamongtheanimalssoalsoamongmenandifpossibleinwhatwaypossibleaboutwarthereisnodifficultytheprincipleofcommunismisadaptedtomilitaryserviceparentswilltaketheirchildrentolookonatabattlejustaspottersboysaretrainedtothebusinessbylookingonatthewheelandtotheparentsthemselvesastootheranimalsthesightoftheiryoungoneswillproveagreatincentivetobraveryyoungwarriorsmustlearnbuttheymustnotrunintodangeralthoughacertaindegreeofriskisworthincurringwhenthebenefitisgreattheyoungcreaturesshouldbeplacedunderthecareofexperiencedveteransandtheyshouldhavewingsthatistosayswiftandtractablesteedsonwhichtheymayflyawayandescapeoneofthefirstthingstobedoneistoteachayouthtoridecowardsanddesertersshallbedegradedtotheclassofhusbandmengentlemenwhoallowthemselvestobetakenprisonersmaybepresentedtotheenemybutwhatshallbedonetotheherofirstofallheshallbecrownedbyalltheyouthsinthearmysecondlyheshallreceivetherighthandoffellowshipandthirdlydoyouthinkthatthereisanyharminhisbeingkissedwehavealreadydeterminedthatheshallhavemorewivesthanothersinorderthathemayhaveasmanychildrenaspossibleandatafeastheshallhavemoretoeatwehavetheauthorityofhomerforhonouringbravemenwithlongchineswhichisanappropriatecomplimentbecausemeatisaverystrengtheningthingfillthebowlthenandgivethebestseatsandmeatstothebravemaytheydothemgoodandhewhodiesinbattlewillbeatoncedeclaredtobeofthegoldenraceandwillaswebelievebecomeoneofhesiodsguardianangelsheshallbeworshippedafterdeathinthemannerprescribedbytheoracleandnotonlyhebutallotherbenefactorsofthestatewhodieinanyotherwayshallbeadmittedtothesamehonoursthenextquestionishowshallwetreatourenemiesshallhellenesbeenslavednoforthereistoogreatariskofthewholeracepassingundertheyokeofthebarbariansorshallthedeadbedespoiledcertainlynotforthatsortofthingisanexcuseforskulkingandhasbeentheruinofmanyanarmythereismeannessandfemininemaliceinmakinganenemyofthedeadbodywhenthesoulwhichwastheownerhasfledlikeadogwhocannotreachhisassailantsandquarrelswiththestoneswhicharethrownathiminsteadagainthearmsofhellenesshouldnotbeofferedupinthetemplesofthegodstheyareapollutionfortheyaretakenfrombrethrenandonsimilargroundsthereshouldbealimittothedevastationofhellenicterritorythehousesshouldnotbeburntnormorethantheannualproducecarriedoffforwarisoftwokindscivilandforeignthefirstofwhichisproperlytermeddiscordandonlythesecondwarandwarbetweenhellenesisinrealitycivilwaraquarrelinafamilywhichisevertoberegardedasunpatrioticandunnaturalandoughttobeprosecutedwithaviewtoreconciliationinatruephilhellenicspiritasofthosewhowouldchastenbutnotutterlyenslavethewarisnotagainstawholenationwhoareafriendlymultitudeofmenwomenandchildrenbutonlyagainstafewguiltypersonswhentheyarepunishedpeacewillberestoredthatisthewayinwhichhellenesshouldwaragainstoneanotherandagainstbarbariansastheywaragainstoneanothernowbutmydearsocratesyouareforgettingthemainquestionissuchastatepossibleigrantallandmorethanyousayabouttheblessednessofbeingonefamilyfathersbrothersmothersdaughtersgoingouttowartogetherbutiwanttoascertainthepossibilityofthisidealstateyouaretoounmercifulthefirstwaveandthesecondwaveihavehardlyescapedandnowyouwillcertainlydrownmewiththethirdwhenyouseethetoweringcrestofthewaveiexpectyoutotakepitynotawhitwellthenwewereledtoformouridealpolityinthesearchafterjusticeandthejustmanansweredtothejuststateisthisidealatalltheworseforbeingimpracticablewouldthepictureofaperfectlybeautifulmanbeanytheworsebecausenosuchmaneverlivedcananyrealitycomeuptotheideanaturewillnotallowwordstobefullyrealizedbutifiamtotryandrealizetheidealofthestateinameasureithinkthatanapproachmaybemadetotheperfectionofwhichidreambyoneortwoidonotsayslightbutpossiblechangesinthepresentconstitutionofstatesiwouldreducethemtoasingleonethegreatwaveasicallituntilthenkingsarephilosophersorphilosophersarekingscitieswillneverceasefromillnonorthehumanracenorwillouridealpolityevercomeintobeingiknowthatthisisahardsayingwhichfewwillbeabletoreceivesocratesalltheworldwilltakeoffhiscoatandrushuponyouwithsticksandstonesandthereforeiwouldadviseyoutoprepareanansweryougotmeintothescrapeisaidandiwasrightherepliedhoweveriwillstandbyyouasasortofdonothingwellmeaningallyhavingthehelpofsuchachampioniwilldomybesttomaintainmypositionandfirstimustexplainofwhomispeakandwhatsortofnaturesthesearewhoaretobephilosophersandrulersasyouareamanofpleasureyouwillnothaveforgottenhowindiscriminateloversareintheirattachmentstheyloveallandturnblemishesintobeautiesthesnubnosedyouthissaidtohaveawinninggracethebeakofanotherhasaroyallookthefeaturelessarefaultlessthedarkaremanlythefairangelsthesicklyhaveanewtermofendearmentinventedexpresslyforthemwhichishoneypaleloversofwineandloversofambitionalsodesiretheobjectsoftheiraffectionineveryformnowherecomesthepointthephilosophertooisaloverofknowledgeineveryformhehasaninsatiablecuriositybutwillcuriositymakeaphilosopheraretheloversofsightsandsoundswholetouttheirearstoeverychorusatthedionysiacfestivalstobecalledphilosopherstheyarenottruephilosophersbutonlyanimitationthenhowarewetodescribethetrueyouwouldacknowledgetheexistenceofabstractideassuchasjusticebeautygoodevilwhichareseverallyoneyetintheirvariouscombinationsappeartobemanythosewhorecognizetheserealitiesarephilosopherswhereastheotherclasshearsoundsandseecoloursandunderstandtheiruseintheartsbutcannotattaintothetrueorwakingvisionofabsolutejusticeorbeautyortruththeyhavenotthelightofknowledgebutofopinionandwhattheyseeisadreamonlyperhapsheofwhomwesaythelastwillbeangrywithuscanwepacifyhimwithoutrevealingthedisorderofhismindsupposewesaythatifhehasknowledgewerejoicetohearitbutknowledgemustbeofsomethingwhichisasignoranceisofsomethingwhichisnotandthereisathirdthingwhichbothisandisnotandismatterofopiniononlyopinionandknowledgethenhavingdistinctobjectsmustalsobedistinctfacultiesandbyfacultiesimeanpowersunseenanddistinguishableonlybythedifferenceintheirobjectsasopinionandknowledgediffersincetheoneisliabletoerrbuttheotherisunerringandisthemightiestofallourfacultiesifbeingistheobjectofknowledgeandnotbeingofignoranceandthesearetheextremesopinionmustliebetweenthemandmaybecalleddarkerthantheoneandbrighterthantheotherthisintermediateorcontingentmatterisandisnotatthesametimeandpartakesbothofexistenceandofnonexistencenowiwouldaskmygoodfriendwhodeniesabstractbeautyandjusticeandaffirmsamanybeautifulandamanyjustwhethereverythingheseesisnotinsomepointofviewdifferentthebeautifuluglythepiousimpiousthejustunjustisnotthedoublealsothehalfandarenotheavyandlightrelativetermswhichpassintooneanothereverythingisandisnotasintheoldriddleamanandnotamanshotanddidnotshootabirdandnotabirdwithastoneandnotastonethemindcannotbefixedoneitheralternativeandtheseambiguousintermediateerringhalflightedobjectswhichhaveadisorderlymovementintheregionbetweenbeingandnotbeingarethepropermatterofopinionastheimmutableobjectsarethepropermatterofknowledgeandhewhogrovelsintheworldofsenseandhasonlythisuncertainperceptionofthingsisnotaphilosopherbutaloverofopiniononlythefifthbookisthenewbeginningoftherepublicinwhichthecommunityofpropertyandoffamilyarefirstmaintainedandthetransitionismadetothekingdomofphilosophersforbothoftheseplatoafterhismannerhasbeenpreparinginsomechancewordsofbookivwhichfallunperceivedonthereadersmindastheyaresupposedatfirsttohavefallenontheearofglauconandadeimantustheparadoxesasmorgensterntermsthemofthisbookoftherepublicwillbereservedforanotherplaceafewremarksonthestyleandsomeexplanationsofdifficultiesmaybebrieflyaddedfirstthereistheimageofthewaveswhichservesforasortofschemeorplanofthebookthefirstwavethesecondwavethethirdandgreatestwavecomerollinginandweheartheroarofthemallthatcanbesaidoftheextravaganceofplatosproposalsisanticipatedbyhimselfnothingismoreadmirablethanthehesitationwithwhichheproposesthesolemntextuntilkingsarephilosophersetcorthereactionfromthesublimetotheridiculouswhenglaucondescribesthemannerinwhichthenewtruthwillbereceivedbymankindsomedefectsanddifficultiesmaybenotedintheexecutionofthecommunisticplannothingistoldusoftheapplicationofcommunismtothelowerclassesnoristhetableofprohibiteddegreescapableofbeingmadeoutitisquitepossiblethatachildbornatonehymenealfestivalmaymarryoneofitsownbrothersorsistersorevenoneofitsparentsatanotherplatoisafraidofincestuousunionsbutatthesametimehedoesnotwishtobringbeforeusthefactthatthecitywouldbedividedintofamiliesofthosebornsevenandninemonthsaftereachhymenealfestivalifitwereworthwhiletoargueseriouslyaboutsuchfancieswemightremarkthatwhilealltheoldaffinitiesareabolishedthenewlyprohibitedaffinityrestsnotonanynaturalorrationalprinciplebutonlyupontheaccidentofchildrenhavingbeenborninthesamemonthandyearnordoesheexplainhowthelotscouldbesomanipulatedbythelegislatureastobringtogetherthefairestandbestthesingularexpressionwhichisemployedtodescribetheageoffiveandtwentymayperhapsbetakenfromsomepoetinthedelineationofthephilosophertheillustrationsofthenatureofphilosophyderivedfromlovearemoresuitedtotheapprehensionofglaucontheathenianmanofpleasurethantomoderntastesorfeelingstheyarepartlyfacetiousbutalsocontainagermoftruththatscienceisawholeremainsatrueprincipleofinductiveaswellasofmetaphysicalphilosophyandtheloveofuniversalknowledgeisstillthecharacteristicofthephilosopherinmodernaswellasinancienttimesattheendofthefifthbookplatointroducesthefigmentofcontingentmatterwhichhasexercisedsogreataninfluencebothontheethicsandtheologyofthemodernworldandwhichoccurshereforthefirsttimeinthehistoryofphilosophyhedidnotremarkthatthedegreesofknowledgeinthesubjecthavenothingcorrespondingtothemintheobjectwithhimawordmustanswertoanideaandhecouldnotconceiveofanopinionwhichwasanopinionaboutnothingtheinfluenceofanalogyledhimtoinventparallelsandconjugatesandtooverlookfactstoussomeofhisdifficultiesarepuzzlingonlyfromtheirsimplicitywedonotperceivethattheanswertothemistumblingoutatourfeettothemindofearlythinkerstheconceptionofnotbeingwasdarkandmysterioustheydidnotseethatthisterribleapparitionwhichthreateneddestructiontoallknowledgewasonlyalogicaldeterminationthecommontermunderwhichthroughtheaccidentaluseoflanguagetwoentirelydifferentideaswereincludedwasanothersourceofconfusionthusthroughtheambiguityofgreekplatoattemptingtointroduceorderintothefirstchaosofhumanthoughtseemstohaveconfusedperceptionandopinionandtohavefailedtodistinguishthecontingentfromtherelativeinthetheaetetusthefirstofthesedifficultiesbeginstoclearupinthesophistthesecondandforthisaswellasforotherreasonsboththesedialoguesareprobablytoberegardedaslaterthantherepublicbookvihavingdeterminedthatthemanyhavenoknowledgeoftruebeingandhavenoclearpatternsintheirmindsofjusticebeautytruthandthatphilosophershavesuchpatternswehavenowtoaskwhethertheyorthemanyshallberulersinourstatebutwhocandoubtthatphilosophersshouldbechoseniftheyhavetheotherqualitieswhicharerequiredinarulerfortheyareloversoftheknowledgeoftheeternalandofalltruththeyarehatersoffalsehoodtheirmeanerdesiresareabsorbedintheinterestsofknowledgetheyarespectatorsofalltimeandallexistenceandinthemagnificenceoftheircontemplationthelifeofmanisasnothingtothemnorisdeathfearfulalsotheyareofasocialgraciousdispositionequallyfreefromcowardiceandarrogancetheylearnandremembereasilytheyhaveharmoniouswellregulatedmindstruthflowstothemsweetlybynaturecanthegodofjealousyhimselffindanyfaultwithsuchanassemblageofgoodqualitieshereadeimantusinterposesnomancanansweryousocratesbuteverymanfeelsthatthisisowingtohisowndeficiencyinargumentheisdrivenfromonepositiontoanotheruntilhehasnothingmoretosayjustasanunskilfulplayeratdraughtsisreducedtohislastmovebyamoreskilledopponentandyetallthetimehemayberighthemayknowinthisveryinstancethatthosewhomakephilosophythebusinessoftheirlivesgenerallyturnoutroguesiftheyarebadmenandfoolsiftheyaregoodwhatdoyousayishouldsaythatheisquiterightthenhowissuchanadmissionreconcileablewiththedoctrinethatphilosophersshouldbekingsishallansweryouinaparablewhichwillalsoletyouseehowpoorahandiamattheinventionofallegoriestherelationofgoodmentotheirgovernmentsissopeculiarthatinordertodefendthemimusttakeanillustrationfromtheworldoffictionconceivethecaptainofashiptallerbyaheadandshouldersthananyofthecrewyetalittledeafalittleblindandratherignorantoftheseamansartthesailorswanttosteeralthoughtheyknownothingoftheartandtheyhaveatheorythatitcannotbelearnedifthehelmisrefusedthemtheydrugthecaptainspossetbindhimhandandfootandtakepossessionoftheshiphewhojoinsinthemutinyistermedagoodpilotandwhatnottheyhavenoconceptionthatthetruepilotmustobservethewindsandthestarsandmustbetheirmasterwhethertheylikeitornotsuchanonewouldbecalledbythemfoolpraterstargazerthisismyparablewhichiwillbegyoutointerpretformetothosegentlemenwhoaskwhythephilosopherhassuchanevilnameandtoexplaintothemthatnothebutthosewhowillnotusehimaretoblameforhisuselessnessthephilosophershouldnotbegofmankindtobeputinauthorityoverthemthewisemanshouldnotseektherichastheproverbbidsbuteverymanwhetherrichorpoormustknockatthedoorofthephysicianwhenhehasneedofhimnowthepilotisthephilosopherhewhomintheparabletheycallstargazerandthemutinoussailorsarethemobofpoliticiansbywhomheisrendereduselessnotthatthesearetheworstenemiesofphilosophywhoisfarmoredishonouredbyherownprofessingsonswhentheyarecorruptedbytheworldneedirecalltheoriginalimageofthephilosopherdidwenotsayofhimjustnowthathelovedtruthandhatedfalsehoodandthathecouldnotrestinthemultiplicityofphenomenabutwasledbyasympathyinhisownnaturetothecontemplationoftheabsoluteallthevirtuesaswellastruthwhoistheleaderofthemtookuptheirabodeinhissoulbutasyouwereobservingifweturnasidetoviewtherealityweseethatthepersonswhowerethusdescribedwiththeexceptionofasmallanduselessclassareutterroguesthepointwhichhastobeconsideredistheoriginofthiscorruptioninnatureeveryonewilladmitthatthephilosopherinourdescriptionofhimisararebeingbutwhatnumberlesscausestendtodestroytheserarebeingsthereisnogoodthingwhichmaynotbeacauseofevilhealthwealthstrengthrankandthevirtuesthemselveswhenplacedunderunfavourablecircumstancesforasintheanimalorvegetableworldthestrongestseedsmostneedtheaccompanimentofgoodairandsoilsothebestofhumancharactersturnouttheworstwhentheyfalluponanunsuitablesoilwhereasweaknatureshardlyeverdoanyconsiderablegoodorharmtheyarenotthestuffoutofwhicheithergreatcriminalsorgreatheroesaremadethephilosopherfollowsthesameanalogyheiseitherthebestortheworstofallmensomepersonssaythatthesophistsarethecorruptersofyouthbutisnotpublicopiniontherealsophistwhoiseverywherepresentinthoseverypersonsintheassemblyinthecourtsinthecampintheapplausesandhissesofthetheatrereechoedbythesurroundinghillswillnotayoungmansheartleapamidthesediscordantsoundsandwillanyeducationsavehimfrombeingcarriedawaybythetorrentnoristhisallforifhewillnotyieldtoopiniontherefollowsthegentlecompulsionofexileordeathwhatprincipleofrivalsophistsoranybodyelsecanovercomeinsuchanunequalcontestcharacterstheremaybemorethanhumanwhoareexceptionsgodmaysaveamanbutnothisownstrengthfurtheriwouldhaveyouconsiderthatthehirelingsophistonlygivesbacktotheworldtheirownopinionsheisthekeeperofthemonsterwhoknowshowtoflatterorangerhimandobservesthemeaningofhisinarticulategruntsgoodiswhatpleaseshimevilwhathedislikestruthandbeautyaredeterminedonlybythetasteofthebrutesuchisthesophistswisdomandsuchistheconditionofthosewhomakepublicopinionthetestoftruthwhetherinartorinmoralsthecurseislaiduponthemofbeinganddoingwhatitapprovesandwhentheyattemptfirstprinciplesthefailureisludicrousthinkofallthisandaskyourselfwhethertheworldismorelikelytobeabelieverintheunityoftheideaorinthemultiplicityofphenomenaandtheworldifnotabelieverintheideacannotbeaphilosopherandmustthereforebeapersecutorofphilosophersthereisanothereviltheworlddoesnotliketolosethegiftednatureandsotheyflattertheyoungalcibiadesintoamagnificentopinionofhisowncapacitythetallproperyouthbeginstoexpandandisdreamingofkingdomsandempiresifatthisinstantafriendwhisperstohimnowthegodslightentheethouartagreatfoolandmustbeeducateddoyouthinkthathewilllistenorsupposeabettersortofmanwhoisattractedtowardsphilosophywilltheynotmakeherculeaneffortstospoilandcorrupthimarewenotrightinsayingthattheloveofknowledgenolessthanrichesmaydiverthimmenofthisclasscritiasoftenbecomepoliticianstheyaretheauthorsofgreatmischiefinstatesandsometimesalsoofgreatgoodandthusphilosophyisdesertedbyhernaturalprotectorsandothersenterinanddishonourhervulgarlittlemindsseethelandopenandrushfromtheprisonsoftheartsintohertempleaclevermechanichavingasoulcoarseashisbodythinksthathewillgaincastebybecominghersuitorforphilosophyeveninherfallenestatehasadignityofherownandhelikeabaldlittleblacksmithsapprenticeasheishavingmadesomemoneyandgotoutofdurancewashesanddresseshimselfasabridegroomandmarrieshismastersdaughterwhatwillbetheissueofsuchmarriageswilltheynotbevileandbastarddevoidoftruthandnaturetheywillsmallthenistheremnantofgenuinephilosopherstheremaybeafewwhoarecitizensofsmallstatesinwhichpoliticsarenotworththinkingoforwhohavebeendetainedbytheagesbridleofillhealthformyowncaseoftheoracularsignisalmostuniqueandtooraretobeworthmentioningandthesefewwhentheyhavetastedthepleasuresofphilosophyandhavetakenalookatthatdenofthievesandplaceofwildbeastswhichishumanlifewillstandasidefromthestormundertheshelterofawallandtrytopreservetheirowninnocenceandtodepartinpeaceagreatworktoowillhavebeenaccomplishedbythemgreatyesbutnotthegreatestformanisasocialbeingandcanonlyattainhishighestdevelopmentinthesocietywhichisbestsuitedtohimenoughthenofthecauseswhyphilosophyhassuchanevilnameanotherquestioniswhichofexistingstatesissuitedtohernotoneofthematpresentsheislikesomeexoticseedwhichdegeneratesinastrangesoilonlyinherproperstatewillshebeshowntobeofheavenlygrowthandisherproperstateoursorsomeotheroursinallpointsbutonewhichwasleftundeterminedyoumayrememberoursayingthatsomelivingmindorwitnessofthelegislatorwasneededinstatesbutwewereafraidtoenteruponasubjectofsuchdifficultyandnowthequestionrecursandhasnotgrowneasierhowmayphilosophybesafelystudiedletusbringherintothelightofdayandmakeanendoftheinquiryinthefirstplaceisayboldlythatnothingcanbeworsethanthepresentmodeofstudypersonsusuallypickupalittlephilosophyinearlyyouthandintheintervalsofbusinessbuttheynevermastertherealdifficultywhichisdialecticlaterperhapstheyoccasionallygotoalectureonphilosophyyearsadvanceandthesunofphilosophyunlikethatofheracleitussetsnevertoriseagainthisorderofeducationshouldbereverseditshouldbeginwithgymnasticsinyouthandasthemanstrengthensheshouldincreasethegymnasticsofhissoulthenwhenactivelifeisoverlethimfinallyreturntophilosophyyouareinearnestsocratesbuttheworldwillbeequallyearnestinwithstandingyounomorethanthrasymachusdonotmakeaquarrelbetweenthrasymachusandmewhowereneverenemiesandarenowgoodfriendsenoughandishalldomybesttoconvincehimandallmankindofthetruthofmywordsoratanyratetoprepareforthefuturewheninanotherlifewemayagaintakepartinsimilardiscussionsthatwillbealongtimehencenotlongincomparisonwitheternitythemanywillprobablyremainincredulousfortheyhaveneverseenthenaturalunityofideasbutonlyartificialjuxtapositionsnotfreeandgenerousthoughtsbuttricksofcontroversyandquipsoflawaperfectmanrulinginaperfectstateevenasingleonetheyhavenotknownandweforesawthattherewasnochanceofperfectioneitherinstatesorindividualsuntilanecessitywaslaiduponphilosophersnottheroguesbutthosewhomwecalledtheuselessclassofholdingofficeoruntilthesonsofkingswereinspiredwithatrueloveofphilosophywhetherintheinfinityofpasttimetherehasbeenorisinsomedistantlandoreverwillbehereafteranidealsuchaswehavedescribedwestoutlymaintainthattherehasbeenisandwillbesuchastatewheneverthemuseofphilosophyruleswillyousaythattheworldisofanothermindomyfrienddonotreviletheworldtheywillsoonchangetheiropinioniftheyaregentlyentreatedandaretaughtthetruenatureofthephilosopherwhocanhateamanwholoveshimorbejealousofonewhohasnojealousyconsideragainthatthemanyhatenotthetruebutthefalsephilosophersthepretenderswhoforcetheirwayinwithoutinvitationandarealwaysspeakingofpersonsandnotofprincipleswhichisunlikethespiritofphilosophyforthetruephilosopherdespisesearthlystrifehiseyeisfixedontheeternalorderinaccordancewithwhichhemouldshimselfintothedivineimageandnothimselfonlybutothermenandisthecreatorofthevirtuesprivateaswellaspublicwhenmankindseethatthehappinessofstatesisonlytobefoundinthatimagewilltheybeangrywithusforattemptingtodelineateitcertainlynotbutwhatwillbetheprocessofdelineationtheartistwilldonothinguntilhehasmadeatabularasaonthishewillinscribetheconstitutionofastateglancingoftenatthedivinetruthofnatureandfromthatderivingthegodlikeamongmenminglingthetwoelementsrubbingoutandpaintinginuntilthereisaperfectharmonyorfusionofthedivineandhumanbutperhapstheworldwilldoubttheexistenceofsuchanartistwhatwilltheydoubtthatthephilosopherisaloveroftruthhavinganatureakintothebestandiftheyadmitthiswilltheystillquarrelwithusformakingphilosophersourkingstheywillbelessdisposedtoquarrelletusassumethenthattheyarepacifiedstillapersonmayhesitateabouttheprobabilityofthesonofakingbeingaphilosopherandwedonotdenythattheyareveryliabletobecorruptedbutyetsurelyinthecourseofagestheremightbeoneexceptionandoneisenoughifonesonofakingwereaphilosopherandhadobedientcitizenshemightbringtheidealpolityintobeinghenceweconcludethatourlawsarenotonlythebestbutthattheyarealsopossiblethoughnotfreefromdifficultyigainednothingbyevadingthetroublesomequestionswhicharoseconcerningwomenandchildreniwillbewisernowandacknowledgethatwemustgotothebottomofanotherquestionwhatistobetheeducationofourguardiansitwasagreedthattheyweretobeloversoftheircountryandweretobetestedintherefinersfireofpleasuresandpainsandthosewhocameforthpureandremainedfixedintheirprinciplesweretohavehonoursandrewardsinlifeandafterdeathbutatthispointtheargumentputonherveilandturnedintoanotherpathihesitatedtomaketheassertionwhichinowhazardthatourguardiansmustbephilosophersyourememberallthecontradictoryelementswhichmetinthephilosopherhowdifficulttofindthemallinasinglepersonintelligenceandspiritarenotoftencombinedwithsteadinessthestolidfearlessnatureisaversetointellectualtoilandyettheseoppositeelementsareallnecessaryandthereforeasweweresayingbeforetheaspirantmustbetestedinpleasuresanddangersandalsoaswemustnowfurtheraddinthehighestbranchesofknowledgeyouwillrememberthatwhenwespokeofthevirtuesmentionwasmadeofalongerroadwhichyouweresatisfiedtoleaveunexploredenoughseemedtohavebeensaidenoughmyfriendbutwhatisenoughwhileanythingremainswantingofallmentheguardianmustnotfaintinthesearchaftertruthhemustbepreparedtotakethelongerroadorhewillneverreachthathigherregionwhichisabovethefourvirtuesandofthevirtuestoohemustnotonlygetanoutlinebutaclearanddistinctvisionstrangethatweshouldbesopreciseabouttriflessocarelessaboutthehighesttruthsandwhatarethehighestyoutopretendunconsciousnesswhenyouhavesooftenheardmespeakoftheideaofgoodaboutwhichweknowsolittleandwithoutwhichthoughamangaintheworldhehasnoprofitofitsomepeopleimaginethatthegoodiswisdombutthisinvolvesacirclethegoodtheysayiswisdomwisdomhastodowiththegoodaccordingtoothersthegoodispleasurebutthencomestheabsurditythatgoodisbadfortherearebadpleasuresaswellasgoodagainthegoodmusthaverealityamanmaydesiretheappearanceofvirtuebuthewillnotdesiretheappearanceofgoodoughtourguardiansthentobeignorantofthissupremeprincipleofwhicheverymanhasapresentimentandwithoutwhichnomanhasanyrealknowledgeofanythingbutsocrateswhatisthissupremeprincipleknowledgeorpleasureorwhatyoumaythinkmetroublesomebutisaythatyouhavenobusinesstobealwaysrepeatingthedoctrinesofothersinsteadofgivingusyourowncanisaywhatidonotknowyoumayofferanopinionandwilltheblindnessandcrookednessofopinioncontentyouwhenyoumighthavethelightandcertaintyofscienceiwillonlyaskyoutogivesuchanexplanationofthegoodasyouhavegivenalreadyoftemperanceandjusticeiwishthaticouldbutinmypresentmoodicannotreachtotheheightoftheknowledgeofthegoodtotheparentorprincipalicannotintroduceyoubuttothechildbegotteninhisimagewhichimaycomparewiththeinterestontheprincipaliwillaudittheaccountanddonotletmegiveyouafalsestatementofthedebtyourememberourolddistinctionofthemanybeautifulandtheonebeautifultheparticularandtheuniversaltheobjectsofsightandtheobjectsofthoughtdidyoueverconsiderthattheobjectsofsightimplyafacultyofsightwhichisthemostcomplexandcostlyofoursensesrequiringnotonlyobjectsofsensebutalsoamediumwhichislightwithoutwhichthesightwillnotdistinguishbetweencoloursandallwillbeablankforlightisthenoblebondbetweentheperceivingfacultyandthethingperceivedandthegodwhogivesuslightisthesunwhoistheeyeofthedaybutisnottobeconfoundedwiththeeyeofmanthiseyeofthedayorsuniswhaticallthechildofthegoodstandinginthesamerelationtothevisibleworldasthegoodtotheintellectualwhenthesunshinestheeyeseesandintheintellectualworldwheretruthisthereissightandlightnowthatwhichisthesunofintelligentnaturesistheideaofgoodthecauseofknowledgeandtruthyetotherandfairerthantheyareandstandinginthesamerelationtotheminwhichthesunstandstolightoinconceivableheightofbeautywhichisaboveknowledgeandabovetruthyoucannotsurelymeanpleasurehesaidpeaceirepliedandthisideaofgoodlikethesunisalsothecauseofgrowthandtheauthornotofknowledgeonlybutofbeingyetgreaterfarthaneitherindignityandpowerthatisareachofthoughtmorethanhumanbutpraygoonwiththeimageforisuspectthatthereismorebehindthereisisaidandbearinginmindourtwosunsorprinciplesimaginefurthertheircorrespondingworldsoneofthevisibletheotheroftheintelligibleyoumayassistyourfancybyfiguringthedistinctionundertheimageofalinedividedintotwounequalpartsandmayagainsubdivideeachpartintotwolessersegmentsrepresentativeofthestagesofknowledgeineitherspherethelowerportionofthelowerorvisiblespherewillconsistofshadowsandreflectionsanditsupperandsmallerportionwillcontainrealobjectsintheworldofnatureorofartthesphereoftheintelligiblewillalsohavetwodivisionsoneofmathematicsinwhichthereisnoascentbutallisdescentnoinquiringintopremisesbutonlydrawingofinferencesinthisdivisionthemindworkswithfiguresandnumberstheimagesofwhicharetakennotfromtheshadowsbutfromtheobjectsalthoughthetruthofthemisseenonlywiththemindseyeandtheyareusedashypotheseswithoutbeinganalysedwhereasintheotherdivisionreasonusesthehypothesesasstagesorstepsintheascenttotheideaofgoodtowhichshefastensthemandthenagaindescendswalkingfirmlyintheregionofideasandofideasonlyinherascentaswellasdescentandfinallyrestinginthemipartlyunderstandherepliedyoumeanthattheideasofsciencearesuperiortothehypotheticalmetaphoricalconceptionsofgeometryandtheotherartsorscienceswhicheveristobethenameofthemandthelatterconceptionsyourefusetomakesubjectsofpureintellectbecausetheyhavenofirstprinciplealthoughwhenrestingonafirstprincipletheypassintothehighersphereyouunderstandmeverywellisaidandnowtothosefourdivisionsofknowledgeyoumayassignfourcorrespondingfacultiespureintelligencetothehighestsphereactiveintelligencetothesecondtothethirdfaithtothefourththeperceptionofshadowsandtheclearnessoftheseveralfacultieswillbeinthesameratioasthetruthoftheobjectstowhichtheyarerelatedlikesocrateswemayrecapitulatethevirtuesofthephilosopherinlanguagewhichseemstoreachbeyondthehorizonofthatageandcountryheisdescribedasthespectatorofalltimeandallexistencehehasthenoblestgiftsofnatureandmakesthehighestuseofthemallhisdesiresareabsorbedintheloveofwisdomwhichistheloveoftruthnoneofthegracesofabeautifulsoularewantinginhimneithercanhefeardeathorthinkmuchofhumanlifetheidealofmoderntimeshardlyretainsthesimplicityoftheantiquethereisnotthesameoriginalityeitherintruthorerrorwhichcharacterizedthegreeksthephilosopherisnolongerlivingintheunseennorishesentbyanoracletoconvincemankindofignorancenordoesheregardknowledgeasasystemofideasleadingupwardsbyregularstagestotheideaofgoodtheeagernessofthepursuithasabatedthereismoredivisionoflabourandlessofcomprehensivereflectionuponnatureandhumanlifeasawholemoreofexactobservationandlessofanticipationandinspirationstillinthealteredconditionsofknowledgetheparallelisnotwhollylostandtheremaybeauseintranslatingtheconceptionofplatointothelanguageofourownagethephilosopherinmoderntimesisonewhofixeshismindonthelawsofnatureintheirsequenceandconnexionnotonfragmentsorpicturesofnatureonhistorynotoncontroversyonthetruthswhichareacknowledgedbythefewnotontheopinionsofthemanyheisawareoftheimportanceofclassifyingaccordingtonatureandwilltrytoseparatethelimbsofsciencewithoutbreakingthemphaedrthereisnopartoftruthwhethergreatorsmallwhichhewilldishonourandintheleastthingshewilldiscernthegreatestparmenliketheancientphilosopherheseestheworldpervadedbyanalogiesbuthecanalsotellwhyinsomecasesasingleinstanceissufficientforaninductionmillslogicwhileinothercasesathousandexampleswouldprovenothingheinquiresintoaportionofknowledgeonlybecausethewholehasgrowntoovasttobeembracedbyasinglemindorlifehehasaclearerconceptionofthedivisionsofscienceandoftheirrelationtothemindofmanthanwaspossibletotheancientslikeplatohehasavisionoftheunityofknowledgenotasthebeginningofphilosophytobeattainedbyastudyofelementarymathematicsbutasthefaroffresultoftheworkingofmanymindsinmanyagesheisawarethatmathematicalstudiesarepreliminarytoalmosteveryotheratthesametimehewillnotreduceallvarietiesofknowledgetothetypeofmathematicshetoomusthaveanobilityofcharacterwithoutwhichgeniuslosesthebetterhalfofgreatnessregardingtheworldasapointinimmensityandeachindividualasalinkinaneverendingchainofexistencehewillnotthinkmuchofhisownlifeorbegreatlyafraidofdeathadeimantusobjectsfirstofalltotheformofthesocraticreasoningthusshowingthatplatoisawareoftheimperfectionofhisownmethodhebringstheaccusationagainsthimselfwhichmightbebroughtagainsthimbyamodernlogicianthatheextractstheanswerbecauseheknowshowtoputthequestioninalongargumentwordsareapttochangetheirmeaningslightlyorpremisesmaybeassumedorconclusionsinferredwithrathertoomuchcertaintyoruniversalitythevariationateachstepmaybeunobservedandyetatlastthedivergencebecomesconsiderablehencethefailureofattemptstoapplyarithmeticaloralgebraicformulaetologictheimperfectionorratherthehigherandmoreelasticnatureoflanguagedoesnotallowwordstohavetheprecisionofnumbersorofsymbolsandthisqualityinlanguageimpairstheforceofanargumentwhichhasmanystepstheobjectionthoughfairlymetbysocratesinthisparticularinstancemayberegardedasimplyingareflectionuponthesocraticmodeofreasoningandhereaselsewhereplatoseemstointimatethatthetimehadcomewhenthenegativeandinterrogativemethodofsocratesmustbesupersededbyapositiveandconstructiveoneofwhichexamplesaregiveninsomeofthelaterdialoguesadeimantusfurtherarguesthattheidealiswhollyatvariancewithfactsforexperienceprovesphilosopherstobeeitheruselessorroguescontrarytoallexpectationsocrateshasnohesitationinadmittingthetruthofthisandexplainstheanomalyinanallegoryfirstcharacteristicallydepreciatinghisowninventivepowersinthisallegorythepeoplearedistinguishedfromtheprofessionalpoliticiansandaselsewherearespokenofinatoneofpityratherthanofcensureundertheimageofthenoblecaptainwhoisnotveryquickinhisperceptionstheuselessnessofphilosophersisexplainedbythecircumstancethatmankindwillnotusethemtheworldinallageshasbeendividedbetweencontemptandfearofthosewhoemploythepowerofideasandknownootherweaponsconcerningthefalsephilosophersocratesarguesthatthebestismostliabletocorruptionandthatthefinernatureismorelikelytosufferfromalienconditionswetooobservethattherearesomekindsofexcellencewhichspringfromapeculiardelicacyofconstitutionasisevidentlytrueofthepoeticalandimaginativetemperamentwhichoftenseemstodependonimpressionsandhencecanonlybreatheorliveinacertainatmospherethemanofgeniushasgreaterpainsandgreaterpleasuresgreaterpowersandgreaterweaknessesandoftenagreaterplayofcharacterthanistobefoundinordinarymenhecanassumethedisguiseofvirtueordisinterestednesswithouthavingthemorveilpersonalenmityinthelanguageofpatriotismandphilosophyhecansaythewordwhichallmenarethinkinghehasaninsightwhichisterribleintothefolliesandweaknessesofhisfellowmenanalcibiadesamirabeauoranapoleonthefirstareborneithertobetheauthorsofgreatevilsinstatesorofgreatgoodwhentheyaredrawninthatdirectionyetthethesiscorruptiooptimipessimacannotbemaintainedgenerallyorwithoutregardtothekindofexcellencewhichiscorruptedthealienconditionswhicharecorruptingtoonenaturemaybetheelementsofculturetoanotheringeneralamancanonlyreceivehishighestdevelopmentinacongenialstateorfamilyamongfriendsorfellowworkersbutalsohemaysometimesbestirredbyadversecircumstancestosuchadegreethatherisesupagainstthemandreformsthemandwhileweakerorcoarsercharacterswillextractgoodoutofevilsayinacorruptstateofthechurchorofsocietyandliveonhappilyallowingtheeviltoremainthefinerorstrongernaturesmaybecrushedorspoiledbysurroundinginfluencesmaybecomemisanthropeandphilanthropebyturnsorinafewinstanceslikethefoundersofthemonasticordersorthereformersowingtosomepeculiarityinthemselvesorintheiragemaybreakawayentirelyfromtheworldandfromthechurchsometimesintogreatgoodsometimesintogreatevilsometimesintobothandthesameholdsinthelessersphereofaconventaschoolafamilyplatowouldhaveusconsiderhoweasilythebestnaturesareoverpoweredbypublicopinionandwhateffortstherestofmankindwillmaketogetpossessionofthemtheworldthechurchtheirownprofessionanypoliticalorpartyorganizationarealwayscarryingthemofftheirlegsandteachingthemtoapplyhighandholynamestotheirownprejudicesandintereststhemonstercorporationtowhichtheybelongjudgesrightandtruthtobethepleasureofthecommunitytheindividualbecomesonewithhisorderorifheresiststheworldistoomuchforhimandwillsoonerorlaterberevengedonhimthisisperhapsaonesidedbutnotwhollyuntruepictureofthemaximsandpracticeofmankindwhentheysitdowntogetheratanassemblyeitherinancientormoderntimeswhenthehighernaturesarecorruptedbypoliticsthelowertakepossessionofthevacantplaceofphilosophythisisdescribedinoneofthosecontinuousimagesinwhichtheargumenttouseaplatonicexpressionveilsherselfandwhichisdroppedandreappearsatintervalsthequestionisaskedwhyarethecitizensofstatessohostiletophilosophytheansweristhattheydonotknowherandyetthereisalsoabettermindofthemanytheywouldbelieveiftheyweretaughtbuthithertotheyhaveonlyknownaconventionalimitationofphilosophywordswithoutthoughtssystemswhichhavenolifeinthemadivinepersonutteringthewordsofbeautyandfreedomthefriendofmanholdingcommunionwiththeeternalandseekingtoframethestateinthatimagetheyhaveneverknownthesamedoublefeelingrespectingthemassofmankindhasalwaysexistedamongmenthefirstthoughtisthatthepeoplearetheenemiesoftruthandrightthesecondthatthisonlyarisesoutofanaccidentalerrorandconfusionandthattheydonotreallyhatethosewholovethemiftheycouldbeeducatedtoknowtheminthelatterpartofthesixthbookthreequestionshavetobeconsideredstthenatureofthelongerandmorecircuitouswaywhichiscontrastedwiththeshorterandmoreimperfectmethodofbookivndtheheavenlypatternorideaofthestaterdtherelationofthedivisionsofknowledgetooneanotherandtothecorrespondingfacultiesofthesoulofthehighermethodofknowledgeinplatowehaveonlyaglimpseneitherherenorinthephaedrusorsymposiumnoryetinthephilebusorsophistdoeshegiveanyclearexplanationofhismeaninghewouldprobablyhavedescribedhismethodasproceedingbyregularstepstoasystemofuniversalknowledgewhichinferredthepartsfromthewholeratherthanthewholefromthepartsthisideallogicisnotpractisedbyhiminthesearchafterjusticeorintheanalysisofthepartsofthesoultherelikearistotleinthenicomacheanethicshearguesfromexperienceandthecommonuseoflanguagebutattheendofthesixthbookheconceivesanotherandmoreperfectmethodinwhichallideasareonlystepsorgradesormomentsofthoughtformingaconnectedwholewhichisselfsupportingandinwhichconsistencyisthetestoftruthhedoesnotexplaintousindetailthenatureoftheprocesslikemanyotherthinkersbothinancientandmoderntimeshismindseemstobefilledwithavacantformwhichheisunabletorealizehesupposesthesciencestohaveanaturalorderandconnexioninanagewhentheycanhardlybesaidtoexistheishasteningontotheendoftheintellectualworldwithoutevenmakingabeginningoftheminmoderntimeswehardlyneedtoberemindedthattheprocessofacquiringknowledgeishereconfusedwiththecontemplationofabsoluteknowledgeinallscienceaprioriandaposterioritruthsmingleinvariousproportionstheaprioripartisthatwhichisderivedfromthemostuniversalexperienceofmenorisuniversallyacceptedbythemtheaposterioriisthatwhichgrowsuparoundthemoregeneralprinciplesandbecomesimperceptiblyonewiththembutplatoerroneouslyimaginesthatthesynthesisisseparablefromtheanalysisandthatthemethodofsciencecananticipatescienceinentertainingsuchavisionofaprioriknowledgeheissufficientlyjustifiedoratleasthismeaningmaybesufficientlyexplainedbythesimilarattemptsofdescarteskanthegelandevenofbaconhimselfinmodernphilosophyanticipationsordivinationsorpropheticglimpsesoftruthswhetherconcerningmanornatureseemtostandinthesamerelationtoancientphilosophywhichhypothesesbeartomoderninductivesciencetheseguessesattruthwerenotmadeatrandomtheyarosefromasuperficialimpressionofuniformitiesandfirstprinciplesinnaturewhichthegeniusofthegreekcontemplatingtheexpanseofheavenandearthseemedtorecognizeinthedistancenorcanwedenythatinancienttimesknowledgemusthavestoodstillandthehumanmindbeendeprivedoftheveryinstrumentsofthoughtifphilosophyhadbeenstrictlyconfinedtotheresultsofexperienceplatosupposesthatwhenthetablethasbeenmadeblanktheartistwillfillinthelineamentsoftheidealstateisthisapatternlaidupinheavenormerevacancyonwhichheissupposedtogazewithwonderingeyetheansweristhatsuchidealsareframedpartlybytheomissionofparticularspartlybyimaginationperfectingtheformwhichexperiencesuppliesphaedoplatorepresentstheseidealsinafigureasbelongingtoanotherworldandinmoderntimestheideawillsometimesseemtoprecedeatothertimestocooperatewiththehandoftheartistasinsciencesoalsoincreativeartthereisasyntheticalaswellasananalyticalmethodonemanwillhavethewholeinhismindbeforehebeginstoanothertheprocessesofmindandhandwillbesimultaneousthereisnodifficultyinseeingthatplatosdivisionsofknowledgearebasedfirstonthefundamentalantithesisofsensibleandintellectualwhichpervadesthewholepresocraticphilosophyinwhichisimpliedalsotheoppositionofthepermanentandtransientoftheuniversalandparticularbuttheageofphilosophyinwhichhelivedseemedtorequireafurtherdistinctionnumbersandfigureswerebeginningtoseparatefromideastheworldcouldnolongerregardjusticeasacubeandwaslearningtoseethoughimperfectlythattheabstractionsofsenseweredistinctfromtheabstractionsofmindbetweentheeleaticbeingoressenceandtheshadowsofphenomenathepythagoreanprincipleofnumberfoundaplaceandwasasaristotleremarksaconductingmediumfromonetotheotherhenceplatoisledtointroduceathirdtermwhichhadnothithertoenteredintotheschemeofhisphilosophyhehadobservedtheuseofmathematicsineducationtheywerethebestpreparationforhigherstudiesthesubjectiverelationbetweenthemfurthersuggestedanobjectiveonealthoughthepassagefromonetotheotherisreallyimaginarymetaphformetaphysicalandmoralphilosophyhasnoconnexionwithmathematicsnumberandfigurearetheabstractionsoftimeandspacenottheexpressionsofpurelyintellectualconceptionswhendivestedofmetaphorastraightlineorasquarehasnomoretodowithrightandjusticethanacrookedlinewithvicethefigurativeassociationwasmistakenforarealoneandthusthethreelatterdivisionsoftheplatonicproportionwereconstructedthereismoredifficultyincomprehendinghowhearrivedatthefirsttermoftheserieswhichisnowhereelsementionedandhasnoreferencetoanyotherpartofhissystemnorindeeddoestherelationofshadowstoobjectscorrespondtotherelationofnumberstoideasprobablyplatohasbeenledbytheloveofanalogytimaeustomakefourtermsinsteadofthreealthoughtheobjectsperceivedinbothdivisionsofthelowersphereareequallyobjectsofsenseheisalsopreparingthewayashismannerisfortheshadowsofimagesatthebeginningoftheseventhbookandtheimitationofanimitationinthetenththelinemayberegardedasreachingfromunitytoinfinityandisdividedintotwounequalpartsandsubdividedintotwomoreeachlowersphereisthemultiplicationoftheprecedingofthefourfacultiesfaithinthelowerdivisionhasanintermediatepositioncpfortheuseofthewordfaithorbeliefgreektimaeuscontrastingequallywiththevaguenessoftheperceptionofshadowsgreekandthehighercertaintyofunderstandinggreekandreasongreekthedifferencebetweenunderstandingandmindorreasongreekisanalogoustothedifferencebetweenacquiringknowledgeinthepartsandthecontemplationofthewholetrueknowledgeisawholeandisatrestconsistencyanduniversalityarethetestsoftruthtothisselfevidencingknowledgeofthewholethefacultyofmindissupposedtocorrespondbutthereisaknowledgeoftheunderstandingwhichisincompleteandinmotionalwaysbecauseunabletorestinthesubordinateideasthoseideasarecalledbothimagesandhypothesesimagesbecausetheyareclothedinsensehypothesesbecausetheyareassumptionsonlyuntiltheyarebroughtintoconnexionwiththeideaofgoodthegeneralmeaningofthepassagenoblethenisthebondwhichlinkstogethersightandofthiskindispokeastheintelligiblesofarasthethoughtcontainedinitadmitsofbeingtranslatedintothetermsofmodernphilosophymaybedescribedorexplainedasfollowsthereisatruthoneandselfexistenttowhichbythehelpofaladderletdownfromabovethehumanintelligencemayascendthisunityislikethesunintheheavensthelightbywhichallthingsareseenthebeingbywhichtheyarecreatedandsustaineditistheideaofgoodandthestepsoftheladderleadinguptothishighestoruniversalexistencearethemathematicalscienceswhichalsocontaininthemselvesanelementoftheuniversalthesetooweseeinanewmannerwhenweconnectthemwiththeideaofgoodtheythenceasetobehypothesesorpicturesandbecomeessentialpartsofahighertruthwhichisatoncetheirfirstprincipleandtheirfinalcausewecannotgiveanymoreprecisemeaningtothisremarkablepassagebutwemaytraceinitseveralrudimentsorvestigesofthoughtwhicharecommontousandtoplatosuchastheunityandcorrelationofthesciencesorratherofscienceforinplatostimetheywerenotyetpartedoffordistinguishedtheexistenceofadivinepowerorlifeorideaorcauseorreasonnotyetconceivedornolongerconceivedasinthetimaeusandelsewhereundertheformofapersontherecognitionofthehypotheticalandconditionalcharacterofthemathematicalsciencesandinameasureofeverysciencewhenisolatedfromtheresttheconvictionofatruthwhichisinvisibleandofalawthoughhardlyalawofnaturewhichpermeatestheintellectualratherthanthevisibleworldthemethodofsocratesishesitatingandtentativeawaitingthefullerexplanationoftheideaofgoodandofthenatureofdialecticintheseventhbooktheimperfectintelligenceofglauconandthereluctanceofsocratestomakeabeginningmarkthedifficultyofthesubjecttheallusiontotheagesbridleandtotheinternaloracleordemonicsignofsocrateswhichhereasalwaysinplatoisonlyprohibitorytheremarkthatthesalvationofanyremnantofgoodinthepresentevilstateoftheworldisduetogodonlythereferencetoafuturestateofexistencewhichisunknowntoglauconinthetenthbookandinwhichthediscussionsofsocratesandhisdiscipleswouldberesumedthesurpriseintheanswersthefancifulironyofsocrateswherehepretendsthathecanonlydescribethestrangepositionofthephilosopherinafigureofspeechtheoriginalobservationthatthesophistsafterallareonlytherepresentativesandnottheleadersofpublicopinionthepictureofthephilosopherstandingasideintheshowerofsleetunderawallthefigureofthegreatbeastfollowedbytheexpressionofgoodwilltowardsthecommonpeoplewhowouldnothaverejectedthephilosopheriftheyhadknownhimtherightnoblethoughtthatthehighesttruthsdemandthegreatestexactnessthehesitationofsocratesinreturningoncemoretohiswellwornthemeoftheideaofgoodtheludicrousearnestnessofglauconthecomparisonofphilosophytoadesertedmaidenwhomarriesbeneathheraresomeofthemostinterestingcharacteristicsofthesixthbookyetafewmorewordsmaybeaddedontheoldthemewhichwassooftdiscussedinthesocraticcircleofwhichwelikeglauconandadeimantuswouldfainifpossiblehaveaclearernotionlikethemwearedissatisfiedwhenwearetoldthattheideaofgoodcanonlyberevealedtoastudentofthemathematicalsciencesandweareinclinedtothinkthatneitherwenortheycouldhavebeenledalongthatpathtoanysatisfactorygoalforwehavelearnedthatdifferencesofquantitycannotpassintodifferencesofqualityandthatthemathematicalsciencescanneverriseabovethemselvesintothesphereofourhigherthoughtsalthoughtheymaysometimesfurnishsymbolsandexpressionsofthemandmaytrainthemindinhabitsofabstractionandselfconcentrationtheillusionwhichwasnaturaltoanancientphilosopherhasceasedtobeanillusiontousbutiftheprocessbywhichwearesupposedtoarriveattheideaofgoodbereallyimaginarymaynottheideaitselfbealsoamereabstractionweremarkfirstthatinallagesandespeciallyinprimitivephilosophywordssuchasbeingessenceunitygoodhaveexertedanextraordinaryinfluenceoverthemindsofmenthemeagrenessornegativenessoftheircontenthasbeeninaninverseratiototheirpowertheyhavebecometheformsunderwhichallthingswerecomprehendedtherewasaneedorinstinctinthehumansoulwhichtheysatisfiedtheywerenotideasbutgodsandtothisnewmythologythemenofalatergenerationbegantoattachthepowersandassociationsoftheelderdeitiestheideaofgoodisoneofthosesacredwordsorformsofthoughtwhichwerebeginningtotaketheplaceoftheoldmythologyitmeantunityinwhichalltimeandallexistenceweregatheredupitwasthetruthofallthingsandalsothelightinwhichtheyshoneforthandbecameevidenttointelligenceshumananddivineitwasthecauseofallthingsthepowerbywhichtheywerebroughtintobeingitwastheuniversalreasondivestedofahumanpersonalityitwasthelifeaswellasthelightoftheworldallknowledgeandallpowerwerecomprehendedinitthewaytoitwasthroughthemathematicalsciencesandthesetooweredependentonittoaskwhethergodwasthemakerofitormadebyitwouldbelikeaskingwhethergodcouldbeconceivedapartfromgoodnessorgoodnessapartfromgodthegodofthetimaeusisnotreallyatvariancewiththeideaofgoodtheyareaspectsofthesamedifferingonlyasthepersonalfromtheimpersonalorthemasculinefromtheneutertheonebeingtheexpressionorlanguageofmythologytheotherofphilosophythisorsomethinglikethisisthemeaningoftheideaofgoodasconceivedbyplatoideasofnumberorderharmonydevelopmentmayalsobesaidtoenterintoittheparaphrasewhichhasjustbeengivenofitgoesbeyondtheactualwordsofplatowehaveperhapsarrivedatthestageofphilosophywhichenablesustounderstandwhatheisaimingatbetterthanhedidhimselfwearebeginningtorealizewhathesawdarklyandatadistancebutifhecouldhavebeentoldthatthisorsomeconceptionofthesamekindbuthigherthanthiswasthetruthatwhichhewasaimingandtheneedwhichhesoughttosupplyhewouldgladlyhaverecognizedthatmorewascontainedinhisownthoughtsthanhehimselfknewashiswordsarefewandhismannerreticentandtentativesomustthestyleofhisinterpreterbeweshouldnotapproachhismeaningmorenearlybyattemptingtodefineitfurtherintranslatinghimintothelanguageofmodernthoughtwemightinsensiblylosethespiritofancientphilosophyitisremarkablethatalthoughplatospeaksoftheideaofgoodasthefirstprincipleoftruthandbeingitisnowherementionedinhiswritingsexceptinthispassagenordiditretainanyholduponthemindsofhisdisciplesinalatergenerationitwasprobablyunintelligibletothemnordoesthementionofitinaristotleappeartohaveanyreferencetothisoranyotherpassageinhisextantwritingsbookviiandnowiwilldescribeinafiguretheenlightenmentorunenlightenmentofournatureimaginehumanbeingslivinginanundergrounddenwhichisopentowardsthelighttheyhavebeentherefromchildhoodhavingtheirnecksandlegschainedandcanonlyseeintothedenatadistancethereisafireandbetweenthefireandtheprisonersaraisedwayandalowwallisbuiltalongthewaylikethescreenoverwhichmarionetteplayersshowtheirpuppetsbehindthewallappearmovingfigureswhoholdintheirhandsvariousworksofartandamongthemimagesofmenandanimalswoodandstoneandsomeofthepassersbyaretalkingandotherssilentastrangeparablehesaidandstrangecaptivestheyareourselvesirepliedandtheyseeonlytheshadowsoftheimageswhichthefirethrowsonthewallofthedentothesetheygivenamesandifweaddanechowhichreturnsfromthewallthevoicesofthepassengerswillseemtoproceedfromtheshadowssupposenowthatyousuddenlyturnthemroundandmakethemlookwithpainandgrieftothemselvesattherealimageswilltheybelievethemtoberealwillnottheireyesbedazzledandwilltheynottrytogetawayfromthelighttosomethingwhichtheyareabletobeholdwithoutblinkingandsupposefurtherthattheyaredraggedupasteepandruggedascentintothepresenceofthesunhimselfwillnottheirsightbedarkenedwiththeexcessoflightsometimewillpassbeforetheygetthehabitofperceivingatallandatfirsttheywillbeabletoperceiveonlyshadowsandreflectionsinthewaterthentheywillrecognizethemoonandthestarsandwillatlengthbeholdthesuninhisownproperplaceasheislastofalltheywillconcludethisishewhogivesustheyearandtheseasonsandistheauthorofallthatweseehowwilltheyrejoiceinpassingfromdarknesstolighthowworthlesstothemwillseemthehonoursandgloriesofthedenbutnowimaginefurtherthattheydescendintotheiroldhabitationsinthatundergrounddwellingtheywillnotseeaswellastheirfellowsandwillnotbeabletocompetewiththeminthemeasurementoftheshadowsonthewalltherewillbemanyjokesaboutthemanwhowentonavisittothesunandlosthiseyesandiftheyfindanybodytryingtosetfreeandenlightenoneoftheirnumbertheywillputhimtodeathiftheycancatchhimnowthecaveordenistheworldofsightthefireisthesunthewayupwardsisthewaytoknowledgeandintheworldofknowledgetheideaofgoodislastseenandwithdifficultybutwhenseenisinferredtobetheauthorofgoodandrightparentofthelordoflightinthisworldandoftruthandunderstandingintheotherhewhoattainstothebeatificvisionisalwaysgoingupwardsheisunwillingtodescendintopoliticalassembliesandcourtsoflawforhiseyesareapttoblinkattheimagesorshadowsofimageswhichtheybeholdinthemhecannotenterintotheideasofthosewhohaveneverintheirlivesunderstoodtherelationoftheshadowtothesubstancebutblindnessisoftwokindsandmaybecausedeitherbypassingoutofdarknessintolightoroutoflightintodarknessandamanofsensewilldistinguishbetweenthemandwillnotlaughequallyatbothofthembuttheblindnesswhicharisesfromfulnessoflighthewilldeemblessedandpitytheotherorifhelaughatthepuzzledsoullookingatthesunhewillhavemorereasontolaughthantheinhabitantsofthedenatthosewhodescendfromabovethereisafurtherlessontaughtbythisparableofourssomepersonsfancythatinstructionislikegivingeyestotheblindbutwesaythatthefacultyofsightwasalwaysthereandthatthesoulonlyrequirestobeturnedroundtowardsthelightandthisisconversionothervirtuesarealmostlikebodilyhabitsandmaybeacquiredinthesamemannerbutintelligencehasadivinerlifeandisindestructibleturningeithertogoodorevilaccordingtothedirectiongivendidyouneverobservehowthemindofacleverroguepeersoutofhiseyesandthemoreclearlyheseesthemoreevilhedoesnowifyoutakesuchanoneandcutawayfromhimthoseleadenweightsofpleasureanddesirewhichbindhissoultoearthhisintelligencewillbeturnedroundandhewillbeholdthetruthasclearlyashenowdiscernshismeanerendsandhavewenotdecidedthatourrulersmustneitherbesouneducatedastohavenofixedruleoflifenorsoovereducatedastobeunwillingtoleavetheirparadiseforthebusinessoftheworldwemustchooseoutthereforethenatureswhoaremostlikelytoascendtothelightandknowledgeofthegoodbutwemustnotallowthemtoremainintheregionoflighttheymustbeforceddownagainamongthecaptivesinthedentopartakeoftheirlaboursandhonourswilltheynotthinkthisahardshipyoushouldrememberthatourpurposeinframingthestatewasnotthatourcitizensshoulddowhattheylikebutthattheyshouldservethestateforthecommongoodofallmaywenotfairlysaytoourphilosopherfriendwedoyounowrongforinotherstatesphilosophygrowswildandawildplantowesnothingtothegardenerbutyouhavebeentrainedbyustobetherulersandkingsofourhiveandthereforewemustinsistonyourdescendingintothedenyoumusteachofyoutakeyourturnandbecomeabletouseyoureyesinthedarkandwithalittlepracticeyouwillseefarbetterthanthosewhoquarrelabouttheshadowswhoseknowledgeisadreamonlywhilstyoursisawakingrealityitmaybethatthesaintorphilosopherwhoisbestfittedmayalsobetheleastinclinedtorulebutnecessityislaiduponhimandhemustnolongerliveintheheavenofideasandthiswillbethesalvationofthestateforthosewhorulemustnotbethosewhoaredesiroustoruleandifyoucanoffertoourcitizensabetterlifethanthatofrulersgenerallyistherewillbeachancethattherichnotonlyinthisworldsgoodsbutinvirtueandwisdommaybearruleandtheonlylifewhichisbetterthanthelifeofpoliticalambitionisthatofphilosophywhichisalsothebestpreparationforthegovernmentofastatethennowcomesthequestionhowshallwecreateourrulerswhatwayistherefromdarknesstolightthechangeiseffectedbyphilosophyitisnottheturningoverofanoystershellbuttheconversionofasoulfromnighttodayfrombecomingtobeingandwhattrainingwilldrawthesoulupwardsourformereducationhadtwobranchesgymnasticwhichwasoccupiedwiththebodyandmusicthesisterartwhichinfusedanaturalharmonyintomindandliteraturebutneitherofthesesciencesgaveanypromiseofdoingwhatwewantnothingremainstousbutthatuniversalorprimaryscienceofwhichalltheartsandsciencesarepartakersimeannumberorcalculationverytrueincludingtheartofwaryescertainlythenthereissomethingludicrousaboutpalamedesinthetragedycominginandsayingthathehadinventednumberandhadcountedtheranksandsettheminorderforifagamemnoncouldnotcounthisfeetandwithoutnumberhowcouldhehemusthavebeenaprettysortofgeneralindeednomanshouldbeasoldierwhocannotcountandindeedheishardlytobecalledamanbutiamnotspeakingofthesepracticalapplicationsofarithmeticfornumberinmyviewisrathertoberegardedasaconductortothoughtandbeingiwillexplainwhatimeanbythelastexpressionthingssensibleareoftwokindstheoneclassinviteorstimulatethemindwhileintheotherthemindacquiescesnowthestimulatingclassarethethingswhichsuggestcontrastandrelationforexamplesupposethatiholduptotheeyesthreefingersaforefingeramiddlefingeralittlefingerthesightequallyrecognizesallthreefingersbutwithoutnumbercannotfurtherdistinguishthemoragainsupposetwoobjectstoberelativelygreatandsmalltheseideasofgreatnessandsmallnessaresuppliednotbythesensebutbythemindandtheperceptionoftheircontrastorrelationquickensandsetsinmotionthemindwhichispuzzledbytheconfusedintimationsofsenseandhasrecoursetonumberinordertofindoutwhetherthethingsindicatedareoneormorethanonenumberrepliesthattheyaretwoandnotoneandaretobedistinguishedfromoneanotheragainthesightbeholdsgreatandsmallbutonlyinaconfusedchaosandnotuntiltheyaredistinguisheddoesthequestionariseoftheirrespectivenatureswearethusledontothedistinctionbetweenthevisibleandintelligiblethatwaswhatimeantwhenispokeofstimulantstotheintellectiwasthinkingofthecontradictionswhichariseinperceptiontheideaofunityforexamplelikethatofafingerdoesnotarousethoughtunlessinvolvingsomeconceptionofpluralitybutwhentheoneisalsotheoppositeofonethecontradictiongivesrisetoreflectionanexampleofthisisaffordedbyanyobjectofsightallnumberhasalsoanelevatingeffectitraisesthemindoutofthefoamandfluxofgenerationtothecontemplationofbeinghavinglessermilitaryandretailusesalsotheretailuseisnotrequiredbyusbutasourguardianistobeasoldieraswellasaphilosopherthemilitaryonemayberetainedandtoourhigherpurposenosciencecanbebetteradaptedbutitmustbepursuedinthespiritofaphilosophernotofashopkeeperitisconcernednotwithvisibleobjectsbutwithabstracttruthfornumbersarepureabstractionsthetruearithmeticianindignantlydeniesthathisunitiscapableofdivisionwhenyoudivideheinsiststhatyouareonlymultiplyinghisoneisnotmaterialorresolvableintofractionsbutanunvaryingandabsoluteequalityandthisprovesthepurelyintellectualcharacterofhisstudynotealsothegreatpowerwhicharithmetichasofsharpeningthewitsnootherdisciplineisequallysevereoranequaltestofgeneralabilityorequallyimprovingtoastupidpersonletoursecondbranchofeducationbegeometryicaneasilyseerepliedglauconthattheskillofthegeneralwillbedoubledbyhisknowledgeofgeometrythatisasmallmattertheuseofgeometrytowhichireferistheassistancegivenbyitinthecontemplationoftheideaofgoodandthecompellingthemindtolookattruebeingandnotatgenerationonlyyetthepresentmodeofpursuingthesestudiesasanyonewhoistheleastofamathematicianisawareismeanandridiculoustheyaremadetolookdownwardstotheartsandnotupwardstoeternalexistencethegeometerisalwaystalkingofsquaringsubtendingapposingasifhehadinviewactionwhereasknowledgeistherealobjectofthestudyitshouldelevatethesoulandcreatethemindofphilosophyitshouldraiseupwhathasfallendownnottospeakoflesserusesinwarandmilitarytacticsandintheimprovementofthefacultiesshallweproposeasathirdbranchofoureducationastronomyverygoodrepliedglaucontheknowledgeoftheheavensisnecessaryatonceforhusbandrynavigationmilitarytacticsilikeyourwayofgivingusefulreasonsforeverythinginordertomakefriendsoftheworldandthereisadifficultyinprovingtomankindthateducationisnotonlyusefulinformationbutapurificationoftheeyeofthesoulwhichisbetterthanthebodilyeyeforbythisaloneistruthseennowwillyouappealtomankindingeneralortothephilosopherorwouldyouprefertolooktoyourselfonlyeverymanishisownbestfriendthentakeastepbackwardforweareoutoforderandinsertthethirddimensionwhichisofsolidsafterthesecondwhichisofplanesandthenyoumayproceedtosolidsinmotionbutsolidgeometryisnotpopularandhasnotthepatronageofthestatenoristheuseofitfullyrecognizedthedifficultyisgreatandthevotariesofthestudyareconceitedandimpatientstillthecharmofthepursuitwinsuponmenandifgovernmentwouldlendalittleassistancetheremightbegreatprogressmadeverytruerepliedglauconbutdoiunderstandyounowtobeginwithplanegeometryandtoplacenextgeometryofsolidsandthirdlyastronomyorthemotionofsolidsyesisaidmyhastinesshasonlyhinderedusverygoodandnowletusproceedtoastronomyaboutwhichiamwillingtospeakinyourloftystrainnoonecanfailtoseethatthecontemplationoftheheavensdrawsthesoulupwardsiamanexceptionthenastronomyasstudiedatpresentappearstometodrawthesoulnotupwardsbutdownwardsstargazingisjustlookingupattheceilingnobetteramanmaylieonhisbackonlandoronwaterhemaylookuporlookdownbutthereisnoscienceinthatthevisionofknowledgeofwhichispeakisseennotwiththeeyesbutwiththemindallthemagnificenceoftheheavensisbuttheembroideryofacopywhichfallsfarshortofthedivineoriginalandteachesnothingabouttheabsoluteharmoniesormotionsofthingstheirbeautyislikethebeautyoffiguresdrawnbythehandofdaedalusoranyothergreatartistwhichmaybeusedforillustrationbutnomathematicianwouldseektoobtainfromthemtrueconceptionsofequalityornumericalrelationshowridiculousthentolookfortheseinthemapoftheheavensinwhichtheimperfectionofmattercomesineverywhereasadisturbingelementmarringthesymmetryofdayandnightofmonthsandyearsofthesunandstarsintheircoursesonlybyproblemscanweplaceastronomyonatrulyscientificbasislettheheavensaloneandexerttheintellectstillmathematicsadmitofotherapplicationsasthepythagoreanssayandweagreethereisasisterscienceofharmonicalmotionadaptedtotheearasastronomyistotheeyeandtheremaybeotherapplicationsalsoletusinquireofthepythagoreansaboutthemnotforgettingthatwehaveanaimhigherthantheirswhichistherelationofthesesciencestotheideaofgoodtheerrorwhichpervadesastronomyalsopervadesharmonicsthemusiciansputtheirearsintheplaceoftheirmindsyesrepliedglauconiliketoseethemlayingtheirearsalongsideoftheirneighboursfacessomesayingthatsanewnoteothersdeclaringthatthetwonotesarethesameyesisaidbutyoumeantheempiricswhoarealwaystwistingandtorturingthestringsofthelyreandquarrellingaboutthetempersofthestringsiamreferringrathertothepythagoreanharmonistswhoarealmostequallyinerrorfortheyinvestigateonlythenumbersoftheconsonanceswhichareheardandascendnohigherofthetruenumericalharmonywhichisunheardandisonlytobefoundinproblemstheyhavenotevenaconceptionthatlasthesaidmustbeamarvellousthingathingirepliedwhichisonlyusefulifpursuedwithaviewtothegoodallthesesciencesarethepreludeofthestrainandareprofitableiftheyareregardedintheirnaturalrelationstooneanotheridaresaysocratessaidglauconbutsuchastudywillbeanendlessbusinesswhatstudydoyoumeanofthepreludeorwhatforallthesethingsareonlythepreludeandyousurelydonotsupposethatameremathematicianisalsoadialecticiancertainlynotihavehardlyeverknownamathematicianwhocouldreasonandyetglauconisnottruereasoningthathymnofdialecticwhichisthemusicoftheintellectualworldandwhichwasbyuscomparedtotheeffortofsightwhenfrombeholdingtheshadowsonthewallwearrivedatlastattheimageswhichgavetheshadowsevensothedialecticalfacultywithdrawingfromsensearrivesbythepureintellectatthecontemplationoftheideaofgoodandneverrestsbutattheveryendoftheintellectualworldandtheroyalroadoutofthecaveintothelightandtheblinkingoftheeyesatthesunandturningtocontemplatetheshadowsofrealitynottheshadowsofanimageonlythisprogressandgradualacquisitionofanewfacultyofsightbythehelpofthemathematicalsciencesistheelevationofthesoultothecontemplationofthehighestidealofbeingsofariagreewithyoubutnowleavingthepreludeletusproceedtothehymnwhatthenisthenatureofdialecticandwhatarethepathswhichleadthitherdearglauconyoucannotfollowmeheretherecanbenorevelationoftheabsolutetruthtoonewhohasnotbeendisciplinedintheprevioussciencesbutthatthereisascienceofabsolutetruthwhichisattainedinsomewayverydifferentfromthosenowpractisediamconfidentforallotherartsorsciencesarerelativetohumanneedsandopinionsandthemathematicalsciencesarebutadreamorhypothesisoftruebeingandneveranalysetheirownprinciplesdialecticalonerisestotheprinciplewhichisabovehypothesesconvertingandgentlyleadingtheeyeofthesouloutofthebarbaroussloughofignoranceintothelightoftheupperworldwiththehelpofthescienceswhichwehavebeendescribingsciencesastheyareoftentermedalthoughtheyrequiresomeothernameimplyinggreaterclearnessthanopinionandlessclearnessthanscienceandthisinourprevioussketchwasunderstandingandsowegetfournamestwoforintellectandtwoforopinionreasonormindunderstandingfaithperceptionofshadowswhichmakeaproportionbeingbecomingintellectopinionandsciencebeliefunderstandingperceptionofshadowsdialecticmaybefurtherdescribedasthatsciencewhichdefinesandexplainstheessenceorbeingofeachnaturewhichdistinguishesandabstractsthegoodandisreadytodobattleagainstallopponentsinthecauseofgoodtohimwhoisnotadialecticianlifeisbutasleepydreamandmanyamanisinhisgravebeforehisiswellwakedupandwouldyouhavethefuturerulersofyouridealstateintelligentbeingsorstupidaspostscertainlynotthelatterthenyoumusttrainthemindialecticwhichwillteachthemtoaskandanswerquestionsandisthecopingstoneofthesciencesidaresaythatyouhavenotforgottenhowourrulerswerechosenandtheprocessofselectionmaybecarriedastepfurtherasbeforetheymustbeconstantandvaliantgoodlookingandofnoblemannersbutnowtheymustalsohavenaturalabilitywhicheducationwillimprovethatistosaytheymustbequickatlearningcapableofmentaltoilretentivesoliddiligentnatureswhocombineintellectualwithmoralvirtuesnotlameandonesideddiligentinbodilyexerciseandindolentinmindorconverselynotamaimedsoulwhichhatesfalsehoodandyetunintentionallyisalwayswallowinginthemireofignorancenotabastardorfeeblepersonbutsoundinwindandlimbandinperfectconditionforthegreatgymnastictrialofthemindjusticeherselfcanfindnofaultwithnaturessuchastheseandtheywillbethesavioursofourstatedisciplesofanothersortwouldonlymakephilosophymoreridiculousthansheisatpresentforgivemyenthusiasmiambecomingexcitedbutwheniseehertrampledunderfootiamangryattheauthorsofherdisgraceididnotnoticethatyouweremoreexcitedthanyououghttohavebeenbutifeltthatiwasnowdonotletusforgetanotherpointintheselectionofourdisciplesthattheymustbeyoungandnotoldforsolonismistakeninsayingthatanoldmancanbealwayslearningyouthisthetimeofstudyandherewemustrememberthatthemindisfreeanddaintyandunlikethebodymustnotbemadetoworkagainstthegrainlearningshouldbeatfirstasortofplayinwhichthenaturalbentisdetectedasintrainingthemforwartheyoungdogsshouldatfirstonlytastebloodbutwhenthenecessarygymnasticsareoverwhichduringtwoorthreeyearsdividelifebetweensleepandbodilyexercisethentheeducationofthesoulwillbecomeamoreseriousmatterattwentyyearsofageaselectionmustbemadeofthemorepromisingdiscipleswithwhomanewepochofeducationwillbeginthescienceswhichtheyhavehithertolearnedinfragmentswillnowbebroughtintorelationwitheachotherandwithtruebeingforthepowerofcombiningthemisthetestofspeculativeanddialecticalabilityandafterwardsatthirtyafurtherselectionshallbemadeofthosewhoareabletowithdrawfromtheworldofsenseintotheabstractionofideasbutatthispointjudgingfrompresentexperiencethereisadangerthatdialecticmaybethesourceofmanyevilsthedangermaybeillustratedbyaparallelcaseimagineapersonwhohasbeenbroughtupinwealthandluxuryamidacrowdofflatterersandwhoissuddenlyinformedthatheisasupposititioussonhehashithertohonouredhisreputedparentsanddisregardedtheflatterersandnowhedoesthereversethisisjustwhathappenswithamansprinciplestherearecertaindoctrineswhichhelearntathomeandwhichexercisedaparentalauthorityoverhimpresentlyhefindsthatimputationsarecastuponthematroublesomequeristcomesandaskswhatisthejustandgoodorprovesthatvirtueisviceandvicevirtueandhismindbecomesunsettledandheceasestolovehonourandobeythemashehashithertodoneheisseducedintothelifeofpleasureandbecomesalawlesspersonandaroguethecaseofsuchspeculatorsisverypitiableandinorderthatourthirtyyearsoldpupilsmaynotrequirethispityletustakeeverypossiblecarethatyoungpersonsdonotstudyphilosophytooearlyforayoungmanisasortofpuppywhoonlyplayswithanargumentandisreasonedintoandoutofhisopinionseverydayhesoonbeginstobelievenothingandbringshimselfandphilosophyintodiscreditamanofthirtydoesnotrunoninthiswayhewillargueandnotmerelycontradictandaddsnewhonourtophilosophybythesobrietyofhisconductwhattimeshallweallowforthissecondgymnastictrainingofthesoulsaytwicethetimerequiredforthegymnasticsofthebodysixorperhapsfiveyearstocommenceatthirtyandthenforfifteenyearsletthestudentgodownintothedenandcommandarmiesandgainexperienceoflifeatfiftylethimreturntotheendofallthingsandhavehiseyesupliftedtotheideaofgoodandorderhislifeafterthatpatternifnecessarytakinghisturnatthehelmofstateandtrainingupotherstobehissuccessorswhenhistimecomesheshalldepartinpeacetotheislandsoftheblestheshallbehonouredwithsacrificesandreceivesuchworshipasthepythianoracleapprovesyouareastatuarysocratesandhavemadeaperfectimageofourgovernorsyesandofourgovernessesforthewomenwillshareinallthingswiththemenandyouwilladmitthatourstateisnotamereaspirationbutmayreallycomeintobeingwhenthereshallarisephilosopherkingsoneormorewhowilldespiseearthlyvanitiesandwillbetheservantsofjusticeonlyandhowwilltheybegintheirworktheirfirstactwillbetosendawayintothecountryallthosewhoaremorethantenyearsofageandtoproceedwiththosewhoareleftatthecommencementofthesixthbookplatoanticipatedhisexplanationoftherelationofthephilosophertotheworldinanallegoryinthisasinotherpassagesfollowingtheorderwhichheprescribesineducationandproceedingfromtheconcretetotheabstractatthecommencementofbookviiunderthefigureofacavehavinganopeningtowardsafireandawayupwardstothetruelighthereturnstoviewthedivisionsofknowledgeexhibitingfamiliarlyasinapicturetheresultwhichhadbeenhardlywonbyagreateffortofthoughtinthepreviousdiscussionatthesametimecastingaglanceonwardatthedialecticalprocesswhichisrepresentedbythewayleadingfromdarknesstolighttheshadowstheimagesthereflectionofthesunandstarsinthewaterthestarsandsunthemselvesseverallycorrespondthefirsttotherealmoffancyandpoetrythesecondtotheworldofsensethethirdtotheabstractionsoruniversalsofsenseofwhichthemathematicalsciencesfurnishthetypethefourthandlasttothesameabstractionswhenseenintheunityoftheideafromwhichtheyderiveanewmeaningandpowerthetruedialecticalprocessbeginswiththecontemplationoftherealstarsandnotmerereflectionsofthemandendswiththerecognitionofthesunorideaofgoodastheparentnotonlyoflightbutofwarmthandgrowthtothedivisionsofknowledgethestagesofeducationpartlyanswerfirstthereistheearlyeducationofchildhoodandyouthinthefanciesofthepoetsandinthelawsandcustomsofthestatethenthereisthetrainingofthebodytobeawarriorathleteandagoodservantofthemindandthirdlyafteranintervalfollowstheeducationoflaterlifewhichbeginswithmathematicsandproceedstophilosophyingeneralthereseemtobetwogreataimsinthephilosophyofplatofirsttorealizeabstractionssecondlytoconnectthemaccordingtohimthetrueeducationisthatwhichdrawsmenfrombecomingtobeingandtoacomprehensivesurveyofallbeinghedesirestodevelopinthehumanmindthefacultyofseeingtheuniversalinallthingsuntilatlasttheparticularsofsensedropawayandtheuniversalaloneremainshethenseekstocombinetheuniversalswhichhehasdisengagedfromsensenotperceivingthatthecorrelationofthemhasnootherbasisbutthecommonuseoflanguageheneverunderstandsthatabstractionsashegelsaysaremereabstractionsofusewhenemployedinthearrangementoffactsbutaddingnothingtothesumofknowledgewhenpursuedapartfromthemorwithreferencetoanimaginaryideaofgoodstilltheexerciseofthefacultyofabstractionapartfromfactshasenlargedthemindandplayedagreatpartintheeducationofthehumanraceplatoappreciatedthevalueofthisfacultyandsawthatitmightbequickenedbythestudyofnumberandrelationallthingsinwhichthereisoppositionorproportionaresuggestiveofreflectionthemereimpressionofsenseevokesnopowerofthoughtorofmindbutwhensensibleobjectsasktobecomparedanddistinguishedthenphilosophybeginsthescienceofarithmeticfirstsuggestssuchdistinctionsthefollowinordertheothersciencesofplainandsolidgeometryandofsolidsinmotiononebranchofwhichisastronomyortheharmonyofthespherestothisisappendedthesisterscienceoftheharmonyofsoundsplatoseemsalsotohintatthepossibilityofotherapplicationsofarithmeticalormathematicalproportionssuchasweemployinchemistryandnaturalphilosophysuchasthepythagoreansandevenaristotlemakeuseofinethicsandpoliticseghisdistinctionbetweenarithmeticalandgeometricalproportionintheethicsbookvorbetweennumericalandproportionalequalityinthepoliticsthemodernmathematicianwillreadilysympathisewithplatosdelightinthepropertiesofpuremathematicshewillnotbedisinclinedtosaywithhimletalonetheheavensandstudythebeautiesofnumberandfigureinthemselveshetoowillbeapttodepreciatetheirapplicationtotheartshewillobservethatplatohasaconceptionofgeometryinwhichfiguresaretobedispensedwiththusinadistantandshadowywayseemingtoanticipatethepossibilityofworkinggeometricalproblemsbyamoregeneralmodeofanalysishewillremarkwithinterestonthebackwardstateofsolidgeometrywhichalaswasnotencouragedbytheaidofthestateintheageofplatoandhewillrecognizethegraspofplatosmindinhisabilitytoconceiveofonescienceofsolidsinmotionincludingtheearthaswellastheheavensnotforgettingtonoticetheintimationtowhichallusionhasbeenalreadymadethatbesidesastronomyandharmonicsthescienceofsolidsinmotionmayhaveotherapplicationsstillmorewillhebestruckwiththecomprehensivenessofviewwhichledplatoatatimewhenthesescienceshardlyexistedtosaythattheymustbestudiedinrelationtooneanotherandtotheideaofgoodorcommonprincipleoftruthandbeingbuthewillalsoseeandperhapswithoutsurprisethatinthatstageofphysicalandmathematicalknowledgeplatohasfallenintotheerrorofsupposingthathecanconstructtheheavensaprioribymathematicalproblemsanddeterminetheprinciplesofharmonyirrespectiveoftheadaptationofsoundstothehumaneartheillusionwasanaturaloneinthatageandcountrythesimplicityandcertaintyofastronomyandharmonicsseemedtocontrastwiththevariationandcomplexityoftheworldofsensehencethecircumstancethattherewassomeelementarybasisoffactsomemeasurementofdistanceortimeorvibrationsonwhichtheymustultimatelyrestwasoverlookedbyhimthemodernpredecessorsofnewtonfellintoerrorsequallygreatandplatocanhardlybesaidtohavebeenveryfarwrongormayevenclaimasortofpropheticinsightintothesubjectwhenweconsiderthatthegreaterpartofastronomyatthepresentdayconsistsofabstractdynamicsbythehelpofwhichmostastronomicaldiscoverieshavebeenmadethemetaphysicalphilosopherfromhispointofviewrecognizesmathematicsasaninstrumentofeducationwhichstrengthensthepowerofattentiondevelopesthesenseoforderandthefacultyofconstructionandenablesthemindtograspundersimpleformulaethequantitativedifferencesofphysicalphenomenabutwhileacknowledgingtheirvalueineducationheseesalsothattheyhavenoconnexionwithourhighermoralandintellectualideasintheattemptwhichplatomakestoconnectthemweeasilytracetheinfluencesofancientpythagoreannotionsthereisnoreasontosupposethatheisspeakingoftheidealnumbersbutheisdescribingnumberswhicharepureabstractionstowhichheassignsarealandseparateexistencewhichastheteachersoftheartmeaningprobablythepythagoreanswouldhaveaffirmedrepelallattemptsatsubdivisionandinwhichunityandeveryothernumberareconceivedofasabsolutethetruthandcertaintyofnumberswhenthusdisengagedfromphenomenagavethemakindofsacrednessintheeyesofanancientphilosophernorisiteasytosayhowfarideasoforderandfixednessmayhavehadamoralandelevatinginfluenceonthemindsofmenwhointhewordsofthetimaeusmightlearntoregulatetheirerringlivesaccordingtothemitisworthyofremarkthattheoldpythagoreanethicalsymbolsstillexistasfiguresofspeechamongourselvesandthosewhoinmoderntimesseetheworldpervadedbyuniversallawmayalsoseeananticipationofthislastwordofmodernphilosophyintheplatonicideaofgoodwhichisthesourceandmeasureofallthingsandyetonlyanabstractionphilebustwopassagesseemtorequiremoreparticularexplanationsfirstthatwhichrelatestotheanalysisofvisionthedifficultyinthispassagemaybeexplainedlikemanyothersfromdifferencesinthemodesofconceptionprevailingamongancientandmodernthinkerstoustheperceptionsofsenseareinseparablefromtheactofthemindwhichaccompaniesthemtheconsciousnessofformcolourdistanceisindistinguishablefromthesimplesensationwhichisthemediumofthemwhereastoplatosenseistheheracliteanfluxofsensenotthevisionofobjectsintheorderinwhichtheyactuallypresentthemselvestotheexperiencedsightbutastheymaybeimaginedtoappearconfusedandblurredtothehalfawakenedeyeoftheinfantthefirstactionofthemindisarousedbytheattempttosetinorderthischaosandthereasonisrequiredtoframedistinctconceptionsunderwhichtheconfusedimpressionsofsensemaybearrangedhencearisesthequestionwhatisgreatwhatissmallandthusbeginsthedistinctionofthevisibleandtheintelligibletheseconddifficultyrelatestoplatosconceptionofharmonicsthreeclassesofharmonistsaredistinguishedbyhimfirstthepythagoreanswhomheproposestoconsultasinthepreviousdiscussiononmusichewastoconsultdamontheyareacknowledgedtobemastersintheartbutarealtogetherdeficientintheknowledgeofitshigherimportandrelationtothegoodsecondlythemereempiricswhomglauconappearstoconfusewiththemandwhombothheandsocratesludicrouslydescribeasexperimentingbymereauscultationontheintervalsofsoundsbothofthesefallshortindifferentdegreesoftheplatonicideaofharmonywhichmustbestudiedinapurelyabstractwayfirstbythemethodofproblemsandsecondlyasapartofuniversalknowledgeinrelationtotheideaofgoodtheallegoryhasapoliticalaswellasaphilosophicalmeaningthedenorcaverepresentsthenarrowsphereofpoliticsorlawcomparethedescriptionofthephilosopherandlawyerinthetheaetetusandthelightoftheeternalideasissupposedtoexerciseadisturbinginfluenceonthemindsofthosewhoreturntothislowerworldinotherwordstheirprinciplesaretoowideforpracticalapplicationtheyarelookingfarawayintothepastandfuturewhentheirbusinessiswiththepresenttheidealisnoteasilyreducedtotheconditionsofactuallifeandmayoftenbeatvariancewiththemandatfirstthosewhoreturnareunabletocompetewiththeinhabitantsofthedeninthemeasurementoftheshadowsandarederidedandpersecutedbythembutafterawhiletheyseethethingsbelowinfartruerproportionsthanthosewhohaveneverascendedintotheupperworldthedifferencebetweenthepoliticianturnedintoaphilosopherandthephilosopherturnedintoapoliticianissymbolizedbythetwokindsofdisorderedeyesighttheonewhichisexperiencedbythecaptivewhoistransferredfromdarknesstodaytheotheroftheheavenlymessengerwhovoluntarilyforthegoodofhisfellowmendescendsintothedeninwhatwaythebrighterlightistodawnontheinhabitantsofthelowerworldorhowtheideaofgoodistobecometheguidingprincipleofpoliticsisleftunexplainedbyplatolikethenatureanddivisionsofdialecticofwhichglauconimpatientlydemandstobeinformedperhapshewouldhavesaidthattheexplanationcouldnotbegivenexcepttoadiscipleoftheprevioussciencessymposiummanyillustrationsofthispartoftherepublicmaybefoundinmodernpoliticsandindailylifeforamongourselvestootherehavebeentwosortsofpoliticiansorstatesmenwhoseeyesighthasbecomedisorderedintwodifferentwaysfirsttherehavebeengreatmenwhointhelanguageofburkehavebeentoomuchgiventogeneralmaximswholikejsmillorburkehimselfhavebeentheoristsorphilosophersbeforetheywerepoliticiansorwhohavingbeenstudentsofhistoryhaveallowedsomegreathistoricalparallelsuchastheenglishrevolutionoforpossiblyatheniandemocracyorromanimperialismtobethemediumthroughwhichtheyviewedcontemporaryeventsorperhapsthelongprojectingshadowofsomeexistinginstitutionmayhavedarkenedtheirvisionthechurchofthefuturethecommonwealthofthefuturethesocietyofthefuturehavesoabsorbedtheirmindsthattheyareunabletoseeintheirtrueproportionsthepoliticsoftodaytheyhavebeenintoxicatedwithgreatideassuchaslibertyorequalityorthegreatesthappinessofthegreatestnumberorthebrotherhoodofhumanityandtheynolongercaretoconsiderhowtheseideasmustbelimitedinpracticeorharmonizedwiththeconditionsofhumanlifetheyarefulloflightbutthelighttothemhasbecomeonlyasortofluminousmistorblindnessalmosteveryonehasknownsomeenthusiastichalfeducatedpersonwhoseeseverythingatfalsedistancesandinerroneousproportionswiththisdisorderofeyesightmaybecontrastedanotherofthosewhoseenotfarintothedistancebutwhatisnearonlywhohavebeenengagedalltheirlivesinatradeoraprofessionwhoarelimitedtoasetorsectoftheirownmenofthiskindhavenouniversalexcepttheirowninterestsortheinterestsoftheirclassnoprinciplebuttheopinionofpersonslikethemselvesnoknowledgeofaffairsbeyondwhattheypickupinthestreetsorattheirclubsupposethemtobesentintoalargerworldtoundertakesomehighercallingfrombeingtradesmentoturngeneralsorpoliticiansfrombeingschoolmasterstobecomephilosophersorimaginethemonasuddentoreceiveaninwardlightwhichrevealstothemforthefirsttimeintheirlivesahigherideaofgodandtheexistenceofaspiritualworldbythissuddenconversionorchangeisnottheirdailylifelikelytobeupsetandontheotherhandwillnotmanyoftheiroldprejudicesandnarrownessesstilladheretothemlongaftertheyhavebeguntotakeamorecomprehensiveviewofhumanthingsfromfamiliarexampleslikethesewemaylearnwhatplatomeantbytheeyesightwhichisliabletotwokindsofdisordersnorhaveweanydifficultyindrawingaparallelbetweentheyoungathenianinthefifthcenturybeforechristwhobecameunsettledbynewideasandthestudentofamodernuniversitywhohasbeenthesubjectofasimilaraufklarungwetooobservethatwhenyoungmenbegintocriticisecustomarybeliefsortoanalysetheconstitutionofhumannaturetheyareapttoloseholdofsolidprinciplegreektheyareliketreeswhichhavebeenfrequentlytransplantedtheearthaboutthemislooseandtheyhavenorootsreachingfarintothesoiltheylightuponeveryflowerfollowingtheirownwaywardwillsorbecausethewindblowsthemtheycatchopinionsasdiseasesarecaughtwhentheyareintheairbornehitherandthithertheyspeedilyfallintobeliefstheoppositeofthoseinwhichtheywerebroughtuptheyhardlyretainthedistinctionofrightandwrongtheyseemtothinkonethingasgoodasanothertheysupposethemselvestobesearchingaftertruthwhentheyareplayingthegameoffollowmyleadertheyfallinloveatfirstsightwithparadoxesrespectingmoralitysomefancyaboutartsomenoveltyoreccentricityinreligionandlikeloverstheyaresoabsorbedforatimeintheirnewnotionthattheycanthinkofnothingelsetheresolutionofsomephilosophicalortheologicalquestionseemstothemmoreinterestingandimportantthananysubstantialknowledgeofliteratureorscienceoreventhanagoodlifeliketheyouthinthephilebustheyarereadytodiscoursetoanyoneaboutanewphilosophytheyaregenerallythedisciplesofsomeeminentprofessororsophistwhomtheyratherimitatethanunderstandtheymaybecountedhappyifinlateryearstheyretainsomeofthesimpletruthswhichtheyacquiredinearlyeducationandwhichtheymayperhapsfindtobeworthalltherestsuchisthepicturewhichplatodrawsandwhichweonlyreproducepartlyinhisownwordsofthedangerswhichbesetyouthintimesoftransitionwhenoldopinionsarefadingawayandthenewarenotyetfirmlyestablishedtheirconditionisingeniouslycomparedbyhimtothatofasupposititioussonwhohasmadethediscoverythathisreputedparentsarenothisrealonesandinconsequencetheyhavelosttheirauthorityoverhimthedistinctionbetweenthemathematicianandthedialecticianisalsonoticeableplatoisverywellawarethatthefacultyofthemathematicianisquitedistinctfromthehigherphilosophicalsensewhichrecognizesandcombinesfirstprinciplesthecontemptwhichheexpressesfordistinctionsofwordsthedangerofinvoluntaryfalsehoodtheapologywhichsocratesmakesforhisearnestnessofspeecharehighlycharacteristicoftheplatonicstyleandmodeofthoughtthequaintnotionthatifpalamedeswastheinventorofnumberagamemnoncouldnothavecountedhisfeettheartbywhichwearemadetobelievethatthisstateofoursisnotadreamonlythegravitywithwhichthefirststepistakenintheactualcreationofthestatenamelythesendingoutofthecityallwhohadarrivedattenyearsofageinordertoexpeditethebusinessofeducationbyagenerationarealsotrulyplatonicforthelastcomparethepassageattheendofthethirdbookinwhichheexpectsthelieabouttheearthbornmentobebelievedinthesecondgenerationbookviiiandsowehavearrivedattheconclusionthatintheperfectstatewivesandchildrenaretobeincommonandtheeducationandpursuitsofmenandwomenbothinwarandpeacearetobecommonandkingsaretobephilosophersandwarriorsandthesoldiersofthestatearetolivetogetherhavingallthingsincommonandtheyaretobewarriorathletesreceivingnopaybutonlytheirfoodfromtheothercitizensnowletusreturntothepointatwhichwedigressedthatiseasilydoneherepliedyouwerespeakingofthestatewhichyouhadconstructedandoftheindividualwhoansweredtothisbothofwhomyouaffirmedtobegoodandyousaidthatofinferiorstatestherewerefourformsandfourindividualscorrespondingtothemwhichalthoughdeficientinvariousdegreeswereallofthemworthinspectingwithaviewtodeterminingtherelativehappinessormiseryofthebestorworstmanthenpolemarchusandadeimantusinterruptedyouandthisledtoanotherargumentandsoherewearesupposethatweputourselvesagaininthesamepositionanddoyourepeatyourquestionishouldliketoknowofwhatconstitutionsyouwerespeakingbesidestheperfectstatethereareonlyfourofanynoteinhellasfirstthefamouslacedaemonianorcretancommonwealthsecondlyoligarchyastatefullofevilsthirdlydemocracywhichfollowsnextinorderfourthlytyrannywhichisthediseaseordeathofallgovernmentnowstatesarenotmadeofoakandrockbutoffleshandbloodandthereforeastherearefivestatestheremustbefivehumannaturesinindividualswhichcorrespondtothemandfirstthereistheambitiousnaturewhichanswerstothelacedaemonianstatesecondlytheoligarchicalnaturethirdlythedemocraticalandfourthlythetyrannicalthislastwillhavetobecomparedwiththeperfectlyjustwhichisthefifththatwemayknowwhichisthehappierandthenweshallbeabletodeterminewhethertheargumentofthrasymachusorourownisthemoreconvincingandasbeforewebeganwiththestateandwentontotheindividualsonowbeginningwithtimocracyletusgoontothetimocraticalmanandthenproceedtotheotherformsofgovernmentandtheindividualswhoanswertothembuthowdidtimocracyariseoutoftheperfectstateplainlylikeallchangesofgovernmentfromdivisionintherulersbutwhencecamedivisionsingheavenlymusesashomersaysletthemcondescendtoanswerusasifwewerechildrentowhomtheyputonasolemnfaceinjestandwhatwilltheysaytheywillsaythathumanthingsarefatedtodecayandeventheperfectstatewillnotescapefromthislawofdestinywhenthewheelcomesfullcircleinaperiodshortorlongplantsoranimalshavetimesoffertilityandsterilitywhichtheintelligenceofrulersbecausealloyedbysensewillnotenablethemtoascertainandchildrenwillbebornoutofseasonforwhereasdivinecreationsareinaperfectcycleornumberthehumancreationisinanumberwhichdeclinesfromperfectionandhasfourtermsandthreeintervalsofnumbersincreasingwaningassimilatingdissimilatingandyetperfectlycommensuratewitheachotherthebaseofthenumberwithafourthaddedorwhichismultipliedbyfiveandcubedgivestwoharmoniesthefirstasquarenumberwhichisahundredtimesthebaseorahundredtimesahundredthesecondanoblongbeingahundredsquaresoftherationaldiameterofafigurethesideofwhichisfivesubtractingonefromeachsquareortwoperfectsquaresfromallandaddingahundredcubesofthreethisentirenumberisgeometricalandcontainstheruleorlawofgenerationwhenthislawisneglectedmarriageswillbeunpropitioustheinferioroffspringwhoarethenbornwillintimebecometherulersthestatewilldeclineandeducationfallintodecaygymnasticwillbepreferredtomusicandthegoldandsilverandbrassandironwillformachaoticmassthusdivisionwillarisesuchisthemusesanswertoourquestionandatrueanswerofcoursebutwhatmorehavetheytosaytheysaythatthetworacestheironandbrassandthesilverandgoldwilldrawthestatedifferentwaystheonewilltaketotradeandmoneymakingandtheothershavingthetruerichesandnotcaringformoneywillresistthemthecontestwillendinacompromisetheywillagreetohaveprivatepropertyandwillenslavetheirfellowcitizenswhowereoncetheirfriendsandnurturersbuttheywillretaintheirwarlikecharacterandwillbechieflyoccupiedinfightingandexercisingrulethusarisestimocracywhichisintermediatebetweenaristocracyandoligarchythenewformofgovernmentresemblestheidealinobediencetorulersandcontemptfortradeandhavingcommonmealsandindevotiontowarlikeandgymnasticexercisesbutcorruptionhascreptintophilosophyandsimplicityofcharacterwhichwasoncehernoteisnowlookedforonlyinthemilitaryclassartsofwarbegintoprevailoverartsofpeacetherulerisnolongeraphilosopherasinoligarchiestherespringsupamongthemanextravagantloveofgaingetanothermansandsaveyourownistheirprincipleandtheyhavedarkplacesinwhichtheyhoardtheirgoldandsilverfortheuseoftheirwomenandotherstheytaketheirpleasuresbystealthlikeboyswhoarerunningawayfromtheirfatherthelawandtheireducationisnotinspiredbythemusebutimposedbythestrongarmofpowertheleadingcharacteristicofthisstateispartyspiritandambitionandwhatmannerofmananswerstosuchastateinloveofcontentionrepliedadeimantushewillbelikeourfriendglauconinthatrespectperhapsbutnotinothersheisselfassertingandilleducatedyetfondofliteraturealthoughnothimselfaspeakerfiercewithslavesbutobedienttorulersaloverofpowerandhonourwhichhehopestogainbydeedsofarmsfondtooofgymnasticsandofhuntingasheadvancesinyearshegrowsavariciousforhehaslostphilosophywhichistheonlysaviourandguardianofmenhisoriginisasfollowshisfatherisagoodmandwellinginanillorderedstatewhohasretiredfrompoliticsinorderthathemayleadaquietlifehismotherisangryatherlossofprecedenceamongotherwomensheisdisgustedatherhusbandsselfishnessandsheexpatiatestohersonontheunmanlinessandindolenceofhisfathertheoldfamilyservanttakesupthetaleandsaystotheyouthwhenyougrowupyoumustbemoreofamanthanyourfatheralltheworldareagreedthathewhomindshisownbusinessisanidiotwhileabusybodyishighlyhonouredandesteemedtheyoungmancomparesthisspiritwithhisfatherswordsandwaysandasheisnaturallywelldisposedalthoughhehassufferedfromevilinfluencesherestsatamiddlepointandbecomesambitiousandaloverofhonourandnowletussetanothercityoveragainstanothermanthenextformofgovernmentisoligarchyinwhichtheruleisoftherichonlynorisitdifficulttoseehowsuchastatearisesthedeclinebeginswiththepossessionofgoldandsilverillegalmodesofexpenditureareinventedonedrawsanotheronandthemultitudeareinfectedrichesoutweighvirtueloversofmoneytaketheplaceofloversofhonourmisersofpoliticiansandintimepoliticalprivilegesareconfinedbylawtotherichwhodonotshrinkfromviolenceinordertoeffecttheirpurposesthusmuchoftheoriginletusnextconsidertheevilsofoligarchywouldamanwhowantedtobesafeonavoyagetakeabadpilotbecausehewasrichorrefuseagoodonebecausehewaspooranddoesnottheanalogyapplystillmoretothestateandthereareyetgreaterevilstwonationsarestrugglingtogetherinonetherichandthepoorandtherichdarenotputarmsintothehandsofthepoorandareunwillingtopayfordefendersoutoftheirownmoneyandhavewenotalreadycondemnedthatstateinwhichthesamepersonsarewarriorsaswellasshopkeepersthegreatestevilofallisthatamanmaysellhispropertyandhavenoplaceinthestatewhilethereisoneclasswhichhasenormouswealththeotherisentirelydestitutebutobservethatthesedestituteshadnotreallyanymoreofthegoverningnatureinthemwhentheywererichthannowthattheyarepoortheyweremiserablespendthriftsalwaystheyarethedronesofthehiveonlywhereastheactualdroneisunprovidedbynaturewithastingthetwoleggedthingswhomwecalldronesaresomeofthemwithoutstingsandsomeofthemhavedreadfulstingsinotherwordstherearepaupersandthereareroguestheseareneverfarapartandinoligarchicalcitieswherenearlyeverybodyisapauperwhoisnotaruleryouwillfindabundanceofbothandthisevilstateofsocietyoriginatesinbadeducationandbadgovernmentlikestatelikemanthechangeinthelatterbeginswiththerepresentativeoftimocracyhewalksatfirstinthewaysofhisfatherwhomayhavebeenastatesmanorgeneralperhapsandpresentlyheseeshimfallenfromhishighestatethevictimofinformersdyinginprisonorexileorbythehandoftheexecutionerthelessonwhichhethusreceivesmakeshimcautiousheleavespoliticsrepresseshisprideandsavespenceavariceisenthronedashisbosomslordandassumesthestyleofthegreatkingtherationalandspiritedelementssithumblyonthegroundateithersidetheoneimmersedincalculationtheotherabsorbedintheadmirationofwealththeloveofhonourturnstoloveofmoneytheconversionisinstantaneousthemanismeansavingtoilingtheslaveofonepassionwhichisthemasteroftherestishenottheveryimageofthestatehehashadnoeducationorhewouldneverhaveallowedtheblindgodofrichestoleadthedancewithinhimandbeinguneducatedhewillhavemanyslavishdesiressomebeggarlysomeknavishbreedinginhissoulifheisthetrusteeofanorphanandhasthepowertodefraudhewillsoonprovethatheisnotwithoutthewillandthathispassionsareonlyrestrainedbyfearandnotbyreasonhenceheleadsadividedexistenceinwhichthebetterdesiresmostlyprevailbutwhenheiscontendingforprizesandotherdistinctionsheisafraidtoincuralosswhichistoberepaidonlybybarrenhonourintimeofwarhefightswithasmallpartofhisresourcesandusuallykeepshismoneyandlosesthevictorynextcomesdemocracyandthedemocraticmanoutofoligarchyandtheoligarchicalmaninsatiableavariceistherulingpassionofanoligarchyandtheyencourageexpensivehabitsinorderthattheymaygainbytheruinofextravagantyouththusmenoffamilyoftenlosetheirpropertyorrightsofcitizenshipbuttheyremaininthecityfullofhatredagainstthenewownersoftheirestatesandripeforrevolutiontheusurerwithstoopingwalkpretendsnottoseethemhepassesbyandleaveshisstingthatishismoneyinsomeothervictimandmanyamanhastopaytheparentorprincipalsummultipliedintoafamilyofchildrenandisreducedintoastateofdronagebyhimtheonlywayofdiminishingtheeviliseithertolimitamaninhisuseofhispropertyortoinsistthatheshalllendathisownriskbuttherulingclassdonotwantremediestheycareonlyformoneyandareascarelessofvirtueasthepoorestofthecitizensnowthereareoccasionsonwhichthegovernorsandthegovernedmeettogetheratfestivalsonajourneyvoyagingorfightingthesturdypauperfindsthatinthehourofdangerheisnotdespisedheseestherichmanpuffingandpantinganddrawstheconclusionwhichheprivatelyimpartstohiscompanionsthatourpeoplearenotgoodformuchandasasicklyframeismadeillbyameretouchfromwithoutorsometimeswithoutexternalimpulseisreadytofalltopiecesofitselfsofromtheleastcauseorwithnoneatallthecityfallsillandfightsabattleforlifeordeathanddemocracycomesintopowerwhenthepoorarethevictorskillingsomeandexilingsomeandgivingequalsharesinthegovernmenttoalltherestthemanneroflifeinsuchastateisthatofdemocratsthereisfreedomandplainnessofspeechandeverymandoeswhatisrightinhisowneyesandhashisownwayoflifehencearisethemostvariousdevelopmentsofcharacterthestateislikeapieceofembroideryofwhichthecoloursandfiguresarethemannersofmenandtherearemanywholikewomenandchildrenpreferthisvarietytorealbeautyandexcellencethestateisnotonebutmanylikeabazaaratwhichyoucanbuyanythingthegreatcharmisthatyoumaydoasyoulikeyoumaygovernifyoulikeletitaloneifyoulikegotowarandmakepeaceifyoufeeldisposedandallquiteirrespectiveofanybodyelsewhenyoucondemnmentodeaththeyremainaliveallthesameagentlemanisdesiredtogointoexileandhestalksaboutthestreetslikeaheroandnobodyseeshimorcaresforhimobservetoohowgrandlydemocracysetsherfootuponallourfinetheoriesofeducationhowlittleshecaresforthetrainingofherstatesmentheonlyqualificationwhichshedemandsistheprofessionofpatriotismsuchisdemocracyapleasinglawlessvarioussortofgovernmentdistributingequalitytoequalsandunequalsalikeletusnowinspecttheindividualdemocratandfirstasinthecaseofthestatewewilltracehisantecedentsheisthesonofamiserlyoligarchandhasbeentaughtbyhimtorestraintheloveofunnecessarypleasuresperhapsioughttoexplainthislattertermnecessarypleasuresarethosewhicharegoodandwhichwecannotdowithoutunnecessarypleasuresarethosewhichdonogoodandofwhichthedesiremightbeeradicatedbyearlytrainingforexamplethepleasuresofeatinganddrinkingarenecessaryandhealthyuptoacertainpointbeyondthatpointtheyarealikehurtfultobodyandmindandtheexcessmaybeavoidedwheninexcesstheymayberightlycalledexpensivepleasuresinoppositiontotheusefulonesandthedroneaswecalledhimistheslaveoftheseunnecessarypleasuresanddesireswhereasthemiserlyoligarchissubjectonlytothenecessarytheoligarchchangesintothedemocratinthefollowingmannertheyouthwhohashadamiserlybringingupgetsatasteofthedroneshoneyhemeetswithwildcompanionswhointroducehimtoeverynewpleasureasinthestatesointheindividualtherearealliesonbothsidestemptationsfromwithoutandpassionsfromwithinthereisreasonalsoandexternalinfluencesofparentsandfriendsinalliancewiththeoligarchicalprincipleandthetwofactionsareinviolentconflictwithoneanothersometimesthepartyoforderprevailsbutthenagainnewdesiresandnewdisordersariseandthewholemobofpassionsgetspossessionoftheacropolisthatistosaythesoulwhichtheyfindvoidandunguardedbytruewordsandworksfalsehoodsandillusionsascendtotaketheirplacetheprodigalgoesbackintothecountryofthelotophagiordronesandopenlydwellsthereandifanyofferofallianceorparleyofindividualelderscomesfromhomethefalsespiritsshutthegatesofthecastleandpermitnoonetoenterthereisabattleandtheygainthevictoryandstraightwaymakingalliancewiththedesirestheybanishmodestywhichtheycallfollyandsendtemperanceovertheborderwhenthehousehasbeensweptandgarnishedtheydressuptheexiledvicesandcrowningthemwithgarlandsbringthembackundernewnamesinsolencetheycallgoodbreedinganarchyfreedomwastemagnificenceimpudencecouragesuchistheprocessbywhichtheyouthpassesfromthenecessarypleasurestotheunnecessaryafterawhilehedivideshistimeimpartiallybetweenthemandperhapswhenhegetsolderandtheviolenceofpassionhasabatedherestoressomeoftheexilesandlivesinasortofequilibriumindulgingfirstonepleasureandthenanotherandifreasoncomesandtellshimthatsomepleasuresaregoodandhonourableandothersbadandvileheshakeshisheadandsaysthathecanmakenodistinctionbetweenthemthushelivesinthefancyofthehoursometimeshetakestodrinkandthenheturnsabstainerhepractisesinthegymnasiumorhedoesnothingatallthenagainhewouldbeaphilosopherorapoliticianoragainhewouldbeawarriororamanofbusinessheiseverythingbystartsandnothinglongthereremainsstillthefinestandfairestofallmenandallstatestyrannyandthetyranttyrannyspringsfromdemocracymuchasdemocracyspringsfromoligarchybotharisefromexcesstheonefromexcessofwealththeotherfromexcessoffreedomthegreatnaturalgoodoflifesaysthedemocratisfreedomandthisexclusiveloveoffreedomandregardlessnessofeverythingelseisthecauseofthechangefromdemocracytotyrannythestatedemandsthestrongwineoffreedomandunlessherrulersgiveheraplentifuldraughtpunishesandinsultsthemequalityandfraternityofgovernorsandgovernedistheapprovedprincipleanarchyisthelawnotofthestateonlybutofprivatehousesandextendseventotheanimalsfatherandsoncitizenandforeignerteacherandpupiloldandyoungareallonalevelfathersandteachersfeartheirsonsandpupilsandthewisdomoftheyoungmanisamatchfortheelderandtheoldimitatethejauntymannersoftheyoungbecausetheyareafraidofbeingthoughtmoroseslavesareonalevelwiththeirmastersandmistressesandthereisnodifferencebetweenmenandwomennaytheveryanimalsinademocraticstatehaveafreedomwhichisunknowninotherplacestheshedogsareasgoodastheirshemistressesandhorsesandassesmarchalongwithdignityandruntheirnosesagainstanybodywhocomesintheirwaythathasoftenbeenmyexperienceatlastthecitizensbecomesosensitivethattheycannotenduretheyokeoflawswrittenorunwrittentheywouldhavenomancallhimselftheirmastersuchisthegloriousbeginningofthingsoutofwhichtyrannyspringsgloriousindeedbutwhatistofollowtheruinofoligarchyistheruinofdemocracyforthereisalawofcontrariestheexcessoffreedompassesintotheexcessofslaveryandthegreaterthefreedomthegreatertheslaveryyouwillrememberthatintheoligarchywerefoundtwoclassesroguesandpauperswhomwecomparedtodroneswithandwithoutstingsthesetwoclassesaretothestatewhatphlegmandbilearetothehumanbodyandthestatephysicianorlegislatormustgetridofthemjustasthebeemasterkeepsthedronesoutofthehivenowinademocracytootherearedronesbuttheyaremorenumerousandmoredangerousthanintheoligarchytheretheyareinertandunpractisedheretheyarefulloflifeandanimationandthekeenersortspeakandactwhiletheothersbuzzaboutthebemaandpreventtheiropponentsfrombeingheardandthereisanotherclassindemocraticstatesofrespectablethrivingindividualswhocanbesqueezedwhenthedroneshaveneedoftheirpossessionsthereismoreoverathirdclasswhoarethelabourersandtheartisansandtheymakeupthemassofthepeoplewhenthepeoplemeettheyareomnipotentbuttheycannotbebroughttogetherunlesstheyareattractedbyalittlehoneyandthericharemadetosupplythehoneyofwhichthedemagogueskeepthegreaterpartthemselvesgivingatasteonlytothemobtheirvictimsattempttoresisttheyaredrivenmadbythestingsofthedronesandsobecomedownrightoligarchsinselfdefencethenfollowinformationsandconvictionsfortreasonthepeoplehavesomeprotectorwhomtheynurseintogreatnessandfromthisrootthetreeoftyrannyspringsthenatureofthechangeisindicatedintheoldfableofthetempleofzeuslycaeuswhichtellshowhewhotasteshumanfleshmixedupwiththefleshofothervictimswillturnintoawolfevensotheprotectorwhotasteshumanbloodandslayssomeandexilesotherswithorwithoutlawwhohintsatabolitionofdebtsanddivisionoflandsmusteitherperishorbecomeawolfthatisatyrantperhapsheisdrivenoutbuthesooncomesbackfromexileandthenifhisenemiescannotgetridofhimbylawfulmeanstheyplothisassassinationthereuponthefriendofthepeoplemakeshiswellknownrequesttothemforabodyguardwhichtheyreadilygrantthinkingonlyofhisdangerandnotoftheirownnowlettherichmanmaketohimselfwingsforhewillneverrunawayagainifhedoesnotdosothenandthegreatprotectorhavingcrushedallhisrivalsstandsproudlyerectinthechariotofstateafullblowntyrantletusenquireintothenatureofhishappinessintheearlydaysofhistyrannyhesmilesandbeamsuponeverybodyheisnotadominusnonothehehasonlycometoputanendtodebtandthemonopolyoflandhavinggotridofforeignenemieshemakeshimselfnecessarytothestatebyalwaysgoingtowarheisthusenabledtodepressthepoorbyheavytaxesandsokeepthematworkandhecangetridofbolderspiritsbyhandingthemovertotheenemythencomesunpopularitysomeofhisoldassociateshavethecouragetoopposehimtheconsequenceisthathehastomakeapurgationofthestatebutunlikethephysicianwhopurgesawaythebadhemustgetridofthehighspiritedthewiseandthewealthyforhehasnochoicebetweendeathandalifeofshameanddishonourandthemorehatedheisthemorehewillrequiretrustyguardsbuthowwillheobtainthemtheywillcomeflockinglikebirdsforpaywillhenotratherobtainthemonthespothewilltaketheslavesfromtheirownersandmakethemhisbodyguardthesearehistrustedfriendswhoadmireandlookuptohimarenotthetragicpoetswisewhomagnifyandexaltthetyrantandsaythatheiswisebyassociationwiththewiseandarenottheirpraisesoftyrannyaloneasufficientreasonwhyweshouldexcludethemfromourstatetheymaygotoothercitiesandgatherthemobaboutthemwithfinewordsandchangecommonwealthsintotyranniesanddemocraciesreceivinghonoursandrewardsfortheirservicesbutthehighertheyandtheirfriendsascendconstitutionhillthemoretheirhonourwillfailandbecometooasthmatictomounttoreturntothetyranthowwillhesupportthatrarearmyofhisfirstbyrobbingthetemplesoftheirtreasureswhichwillenablehimtolightenthetaxesthenhewilltakeallhisfatherspropertyandspenditonhiscompanionsmaleorfemalenowhisfatheristhedemusandifthedemusgetsangryandsaysthatagreathulkingsonoughtnottobeaburdenonhisparentsandbidshimandhisriotouscrewbegonethenwilltheparentknowwhatamonsterhehasbeennurturingandthatthesonwhomhewouldfainexpelistoostrongforhimyoudonotmeantosaythathewillbeathisfatheryeshewillafterhavingtakenawayhisarmsthenheisaparricideandacruelunnaturalsonandthepeoplehavejumpedfromthefearofslaveryintoslaveryoutofthesmokeintothefirethuslibertywhenoutofallorderandreasonpassesintotheworstformofservitudeinthepreviousbooksplatohasdescribedtheidealstatenowhereturnstothepervertedordecliningformsonwhichhehadlightlytouchedattheendofbookivthesehedescribesinasuccessionofparallelsbetweentheindividualsandthestatestracingtheoriginofeitherinthestateorindividualwhichhasprecededthemhebeginsbyaskingthepointatwhichhedigressedandisthusledshortlytorecapitulatethesubstanceofthethreeformerbookswhichalsocontainaparallelofthephilosopherandthestateofthefirstdeclinehegivesnointelligibleaccounthewouldnothavelikedtoadmitthemostprobablecausesofthefallofhisidealstatewhichtouswouldappeartobetheimpracticabilityofcommunismorthenaturalantagonismoftherulingandsubjectclasseshethrowsaveilofmysteryovertheoriginofthedeclinewhichheattributestoignoranceofthelawofpopulationofthislawthefamousgeometricalfigureornumberistheexpressionliketheancientsingeneralhehadnoideaofthegradualperfectibilityofmanoroftheeducationofthehumanracehisidealwasnottobeattainedinthecourseofagesbutwastospringinfullarmourfromtheheadofthelegislatorwhengoodlawshadbeengivenhethoughtonlyofthemannerinwhichtheywerelikelytobecorruptedorofhowtheymightbefilledupindetailorrestoredinaccordancewiththeiroriginalspiritheappearsnottohavereflecteduponthefullmeaningofhisownwordsinthebriefspaceofhumanlifenothinggreatcanbeaccomplishedoragainasheafterwardssaysinthelawsinfinitetimeisthemakerofcitiestheorderofconstitutionswhichisadoptedbyhimrepresentsanorderofthoughtratherthanasuccessionoftimeandmaybeconsideredasthefirstattempttoframeaphilosophyofhistorythefirstofthesedecliningstatesistimocracyorthegovernmentofsoldiersandloversofhonourwhichanswerstothespartanstatethisisagovernmentofforceinwhicheducationisnotinspiredbythemusesbutimposedbythelawandinwhichallthefinerelementsoforganizationhavedisappearedthephilosopherhimselfhaslosttheloveoftruthandthesoldierwhoisofasimplerandhonesternaturerulesinhissteadtheindividualwhoanswerstotimocracyhassomenoticeablequalitiesheisdescribedasilleducatedbutlikethespartanaloverofliteratureandalthoughheisaharshmastertohisservantshehasnonaturalsuperiorityoverthemhischaracterisbaseduponareactionagainstthecircumstancesofhisfatherwhoinatroubledcityhasretiredfrompoliticsandhismotherwhoisdissatisfiedatherownpositionisalwaysurginghimtowardsthelifeofpoliticalambitionsuchacharactermayhavehadthisoriginandindeedlivyattributesthelicinianlawstoafemininejealousyofasimilarkindbutthereisobviouslynoconnectionbetweenthemannerinwhichthetimocraticstatespringsoutoftheidealandthemereaccidentbywhichthetimocraticmanisthesonofaretiredstatesmanthetwonextstagesinthedeclineofconstitutionshaveevenlesshistoricalfoundationforthereisnotraceingreekhistoryofapolitylikethespartanorcretanpassingintoanoligarchyofwealthoroftheoligarchyofwealthpassingintoademocracytheorderofhistoryappearstobedifferentfirstinthehomerictimesthereistheroyalorpatriarchalformofgovernmentwhichacenturyortwolaterwassucceededbyanoligarchyofbirthratherthanofwealthandinwhichwealthwasonlytheaccidentofthehereditarypossessionoflandandpowersometimesthisoligarchicalgovernmentgavewaytoagovernmentbaseduponaqualificationofpropertywhichaccordingtoaristotlesmodeofusingwordswouldhavebeencalledatimocracyandthisinsomecitiesasatathensbecametheconductingmediumtodemocracybutsuchwasnotthenecessaryorderofsuccessioninstatesnorindeedcananyorderbediscernedintheendlessfluctuationofgreekhistorylikethetidesintheeuripusexceptperhapsinthealmostuniformtendencyfrommonarchytoaristocracyintheearliesttimesatfirstsightthereappearstobeasimilarinversioninthelaststepoftheplatonicsuccessionfortyrannyinsteadofbeingthenaturalendofdemocracyinearlygreekhistoryappearsratherasastageleadingtodemocracythereignofpeisistratusandhissonsisanepisodewhichcomesbetweenthelegislationofsolonandtheconstitutionofcleisthenesandsomesecretcausecommontothemallseemstohaveledthegreaterpartofhellasatherfirstappearanceinthedawnofhistoryegathensargoscorinthsicyonandnearlyeverystatewiththeexceptionofspartathroughasimilarstageoftyrannywhichendedeitherinoligarchyordemocracybutthenwemustrememberthatplatoisdescribingratherthecontemporarygovernmentsofthesicilianstateswhichalternatedbetweendemocracyandtyrannythantheancienthistoryofathensorcorinththeportraitofthetyranthimselfisjustsuchasthelatergreekdelightedtodrawofphalarisanddionysiusinwhichasinthelivesofmediaevalsaintsormythicheroestheconductandactionsofonewereattributedtoanotherinordertofilluptheoutlinetherewasnoenormitywhichthegreekwasnottodaytobelieveofthemthetyrantwasthenegationofgovernmentandlawhisassassinationwasglorioustherewasnocrimehoweverunnaturalwhichmightnotwithprobabilitybeattributedtohiminthisplatowasonlyfollowingthecommonthoughtofhiscountrymenwhichheembellishedandexaggeratedwithallthepowerofhisgeniusthereisnoneedtosupposethathedrewfromlifeorthathisknowledgeoftyrantsisderivedfromapersonalacquaintancewithdionysiusthemannerinwhichhespeaksofthemwouldrathertendtorenderdoubtfulhiseverhavingconsortedwiththemorentertainedtheschemeswhichareattributedtohimintheepistlesofregeneratingsicilybytheirhelpplatoinahyperbolicalandseriocomicveinexaggeratesthefolliesofdemocracywhichhealsoseesreflectedinsociallifetohimdemocracyisastateofindividualismordissolutioninwhicheveryoneisdoingwhatisrightinhisowneyesofapeopleanimatedbyacommonspiritoflibertyrisingasonemantorepelthepersianhostwhichistheleadingideaofdemocracyinherodotusandthucydidesheneverseemstothinkbutifheisnotabelieverinlibertystilllessishealoveroftyrannyhisdeeperandmoreseriouscondemnationisreservedforthetyrantwhoistheidealofwickednessandalsoofweaknessandwhoinhisutterhelplessnessandsuspiciousnessisleadinganalmostimpossibleexistencewithoutthatremnantofgoodwhichinplatosopinionwasrequiredtogivepowertoevilbookithisidealofwickednesslivinginhelplessmiseryisthereverseofthatotherportraitofperfectinjusticerulinginhappinessandsplendourwhichfirstofallthrasymachusandafterwardsthesonsofaristonhaddrawnandisalsothereverseofthekingwhoseruleoflifeisthegoodofhissubjectseachofthesegovernmentsandindividualshasacorrespondingethicalgradationtheidealstateisundertheruleofreasonnotextinguishingbutharmonizingthepassionsandtrainingtheminvirtueinthetimocracyandthetimocraticmantheconstitutionwhetherofthestateoroftheindividualisbasedfirstuponcourageandsecondlyupontheloveofhonourthislattervirtuewhichishardlytobeesteemedavirtuehassupersededalltherestinthesecondstageofdeclinethevirtueshavealtogetherdisappearedandtheloveofgainhassucceededtotheminthethirdstageordemocracythevariouspassionsareallowedtohavefreeplayandthevirtuesandvicesareimpartiallycultivatedbutthisfreedomwhichleadstomanycuriousextravagancesofcharacterisinrealityonlyastateofweaknessanddissipationatlastonemonsterpassiontakespossessionofthewholenatureofmanthisistyrannyinallofthemexcesstheexcessfirstofwealthandthenoffreedomistheelementofdecaytheeighthbookoftherepublicaboundsinpicturesoflifeandfancifulallusionstheuseofmetaphoricallanguageiscarriedtoagreaterextentthananywhereelseinplatowemayremarkthedescriptionofthetwonationsinonewhichbecomemoreandmoredividedinthegreekrepublicsasinfeudaltimesandperhapsalsoinourownthenotionofdemocracyexpressedinasortofpythagoreanformulaasequalityamongunequalsthefreeandeasywaysofmenandanimalswhicharecharacteristicoflibertyasforeignmercenariesanduniversalmistrustareofthetyranttheproposalthatmeredebtsshouldnotberecoverablebylawisaspeculationwhichhasoftenbeenentertainedbyreformersofthelawinmoderntimesandisinharmonywiththetendenciesofmodernlegislationdebtandlandwerethetwogreatdifficultiesoftheancientlawgiverinmoderntimeswemaybesaidtohavealmostifnotquitesolvedthefirstofthesedifficultiesbuthardlythesecondstillmoreremarkablearethecorrespondingportraitsofindividualsthereisthefamilypictureofthefatherandmotherandtheoldservantofthetimocraticalmanandtheoutwardrespectabilityandinherentmeannessoftheoligarchicaltheuncontrolledlicenceandfreedomofthedemocratinwhichtheyoungalcibiadesseemstobedepicteddoingrightorwrongashepleasesandwhoatlastliketheprodigalgoesintoafarcountrynoteheretheplayoflanguagebywhichthedemocraticmanishimselfrepresentedundertheimageofastatehavingacitadelandreceivingembassiesandthereisthewildbeastnaturewhichbreakslooseinhissuccessorthehitaboutthetyrantbeingaparricidetherepresentationofthetyrantslifeasanobscenedreamtherhetoricalsurpriseofamoremiserablethanthemostmiserableofmeninbookixthehinttothepoetsthatiftheyarethefriendsoftyrantsthereisnoplacefortheminaconstitutionalstateandthattheyaretooclevernottoseetheproprietyoftheirownexpulsionthecontinuousimageofthedroneswhoareoftwokindsswellingatlastintothemonsterdronehavingwingsbookixareamongplatoshappiesttouchesthereremainstobeconsideredthegreatdifficultyofthisbookoftherepublicthesocallednumberofthestatethisisapuzzlealmostasgreatasthenumberofthebeastinthebookofrevelationandthoughapparentlyknowntoaristotleisreferredtobyciceroasaproverbofobscurityepadattandsomehaveimaginedthatthereisnoanswertothepuzzleandthatplatohasbeenpractisinguponhisreadersbutsuchadeceptionasthisisinconsistentwiththemannerinwhicharistotlespeaksofthenumberpolandwouldhavebeenridiculoustoanyreaderoftherepublicwhowasacquaintedwithgreekmathematicsaslittlereasonisthereforsupposingthatplatointentionallyusedobscureexpressionstheobscurityarisesfromourwantoffamiliaritywiththesubjectontheotherhandplatohimselfindicatesthatheisnotaltogetherseriousandindescribinghisnumberasasolemnjestofthemusesheappearstoimplysomedegreeofsatireonthesymbolicaluseofnumbercomparecratylusprotagourhopeofunderstandingthepassagedependsprincipallyonanaccuratestudyofthewordsthemselvesonwhichafaintlightisthrownbytheparallelpassageintheninthbookanotherhelpistheallusioninaristotlewhomakestheimportantremarkthatthelatterpartofthepassagegreekdescribesasolidfigurepolheonlysaysthatnothingisabidingbutthatallthingschangeinacertaincycleandthattheoriginofthechangeisabaseofnumberswhichareintheratioofandthiswhencombinedwithafigureoffivegivestwoharmonieshemeanswhenthenumberofthisfigurebecomessolidsomefurthercluemaybegatheredfromtheappearanceofthepythagoreantrianglewhichisdenotedbythenumbersandinwhichasineveryrightangledtrianglethesquaresofthetwolessersidesequalthesquareofthehypotenuseplatobeginsbyspeakingofaperfectorcyclicalnumbertimieanumberinwhichthesumofthedivisorsequalsthewholethisisthedivineorperfectnumberinwhichalllessercyclesorrevolutionsarecompletehealsospeaksofahumanorimperfectnumberhavingfourtermsandthreeintervalsofnumberswhicharerelatedtooneanotherincertainproportionstheseheconvertsintofiguresandfindsinthemwhentheyhavebeenraisedtothethirdpowercertainelementsofnumberwhichgivetwoharmoniestheonesquaretheotheroblongbuthedoesnotsaythatthesquarenumberanswerstothedivineortheoblongnumbertothehumancyclenorisanyintimationgiventhatthefirstordivinenumberrepresentstheperiodoftheworldthesecondtheperiodofthestateorofthehumanraceaszellersupposesnoristhedivinenumberafterwardsmentionedaristthesecondisthenumberofgenerationsorbirthsandpresidesovertheminthesamemysteriousmannerinwhichthestarspresideoverthemorinwhichaccordingtothepythagoreansopportunityjusticemarriagearerepresentedbysomenumberorfigurethisisprobablythenumbertheexplanationgiveninthetextsupposesthetwoharmoniestomakeupthenumberthisexplanationderivesacertainplausibilityfromthecircumstancethatistheancientnumberofthespartancitizensherodandwouldbewhatplatomighthavecalledanumberwhichnearlyconcernsthepopulationofacitythemysteriousdisappearanceofthespartanpopulationmaypossiblyhavesuggestedtohimthefirstcauseofhisdeclineofstatesthelesserorsquareharmonyofmightbeasymboloftheguardiansthelargeroroblongharmonyofthepeopleandthenumbersmightreferrespectivelytothethreeordersinthestateorpartsofthesoulthefourvirtuesthefiveformsofgovernmenttheharmonyofthemusicalscalewhichiselsewhereusedasasymboloftheharmonyofthestateisalsoindicatedforthenumberswhichrepresentthesidesofthepythagoreantrianglealsodenotetheintervalsofthescalethetermsusedinthestatementoftheproblemmaybeexplainedasfollowsaperfectnumbergreekasalreadystatedisonewhichisequaltothesumofitsdivisorsthuswhichisthefirstperfectorcyclicalnumberthewordsgreektermsornotesandgreekintervalsareapplicabletomusicaswellastonumberandfiguregreekisthebaseonwhichthewholecalculationdependsorthelowesttermfromwhichitcanbeworkedoutthewordsgreekhavebeenvariouslytranslatedsquaredandcubeddonaldsonequallingandequalledinpowerweberbyinvolutionandevolutioniebyraisingthepowerandextractingtherootasinthetranslationnumbersarecalledlikeandunlikegreekwhenthefactorsorthesidesoftheplanesandcubeswhichtheyrepresentareorarenotinthesameratioegandcubedandcubedandconverselywaxinggreeknumberscalledalsoincreasinggreekarethosewhichareexceededbythesumoftheirdivisorsegandarelessthanandwaninggreeknumberscalledalsodecreasinggreekarethosewhichsucceedthesumoftheirdivisorsegandexceedandthewordstranslatedcommensurableandagreeabletooneanothergreekseemtobedifferentwaysofdescribingthesamerelationwithmoreorlessprecisiontheyareequivalenttoexpressibleintermshavingthesamerelationtooneanotherliketheserieseachofwhichnumbersisintherelationofandtotheprecedingthebaseorfundamentalnumberwhichhasaddedtoitandoramusicalfourthgreekisaproportionofnumbersasofmusicalnotesappliedeithertothepartsorfactorsofasinglenumberortotherelationofonenumbertoanotherthefirstharmonyisasquarenumbergreekthesecondharmonyisanoblongnumbergreekieanumberrepresentingafigureofwhichtheoppositesidesonlyareequalgreeknumberssquaredfromorupondiametersgreekrationalieomittingfractionsgreekirrationalieincludingfractionsegisasquareoftherationaldiameterofafigurethesideofwhichofanirrationaldiameterofthesameforseveraloftheexplanationsheregivenandforagooddealbesidesiamindebtedtoanexcellentarticleontheplatonicnumberbydrdonaldsonprocofthephilolsocietytheconclusionswhichhedrawsfromthesedataaresummedupbyhimasfollowshavingassumedthatthenumberoftheperfectordivinecycleisthenumberoftheworldandthenumberoftheimperfectcyclethenumberofthestateheproceedstheperiodoftheworldisdefinedbytheperfectnumberthatofthestatebythecubeofthatnumberorwhichistheproductofthelastpairoftermsintheplatonictetractysaseriesofseventermsandifwetakethisasthebasisofourcomputationweshallhavetwocubenumbersgreekvizandandthemeanproportionalsbetweenthesevizandwillfurnishthreeintervalsandfourtermsandthesetermsandintervalsstandrelatedtooneanotherinthesesquialteraratioieeachtermistotheprecedingasnowifwerememberthatthenumberxcubedcubedcubedandsquaredsquaredsquaredwemustadmitthatthisnumberimpliesthenumberstowhichmusiciansattachsomuchimportanceandifwecombinetheratiowiththenumberormultiplytheratiosofthesidesbythehypotenuseweshallbyfirstsquaringandthencubingobtaintwoexpressionswhichdenotetheratioofthetwolastpairsoftermsintheplatonictetractystheformermultipliedbythesquarethelatterbythecubeofthenumberthesumofthefirstfourdigitswhichconstitutetheplatonictetractysthetwogreekheelsewhereexplainsasfollowsthefirstgreekisgreekinotherwordsxallsquaredxsquaredoversquaredthesecondgreekacubeofthesamerootisdescribedasmultipliedalphabytherationaldiameterofdiminishedbyunityieasshownabovebetabytwoincommensurablediametersiethetwofirstirrationalsorandandgammabythecubeoforthuswehavexcubedthissecondharmonyistobethecubeofthenumberofwhichtheformerharmonyisthesquareandthereforemustbedividedbythecubeofinotherwordsthewholeexpressionwillbeforthefirstharmonyforthesecondharmonythereasonswhichhaveinclinedmetoagreewithdrdonaldsonandalsowithschleiermacherinsupposingthatistheplatonicnumberofbirthsarethatitcoincideswiththedescriptionofthenumbergiveninthefirstpartofthepassagegreekthatthenumberwithitspermutationswouldhavebeenfamiliartoagreekmathematicianthoughunfamiliartousthatisthecubeofandalsothesumofcubedcubedcubedthenumbersrepresentingthepythagoreantriangleofwhichthesideswhensquaredequalthesquareofthehypotenusethatitisalsotheperiodofthepythagoreanmetempsychosisthethreeultimatetermsorbasesofwhichiscomposedanswertothethirdfourthfifthinthemusicalscalethatthenumberistheproductofthecubesofandwhicharethetwolasttermsintheplatonictetractysthatthepythagoreantriangleissaidbyplutarchdeisetosirproclussuperprimaeuclandquintiliandemusicatobecontainedinthispassagesothatthetraditionoftheschoolseemstopointinthesamedirectionthatthepythagoreantriangleiscalledalsothefigureofmarriagegreekbutthoughagreeingwithdrdonaldsonthusfariseenoreasonforsupposingashedoesthatthefirstorperfectnumberistheworldthehumanorimperfectnumberthestatenorhashegivenanyproofthatthesecondharmonyisacubenordoithinkthatgreekcanmeantwoincommensurableswhichhearbitrarilyassumestobeandbutratherastheprecedingclauseimpliesgreekietwosquarenumbersbaseduponirrationaldiametersofafigurethesideofwhichisxthegreatestobjectiontothetranslationisthesensegiventothewordsgreekabaseofthreewithathirdaddedtoitmultipliedbyinthissomewhatforcedmannerplatointroducesoncemorethenumbersofthepythagoreantrianglebutthecoincidencesinthenumberswhichfollowareinfavouroftheexplanationthefirstharmonyofashasbeenalreadyremarkedprobablyrepresentstherulersthesecondandoblongharmonyofthepeopleandherewetakeleaveofthedifficultythediscoveryoftheriddlewouldbeuselessandwouldthrownolightonancientmathematicsthepointofinterestisthatplatoshouldhaveusedsuchasymbolandthatsomuchofthepythagoreanspiritshouldhaveprevailedinhimhisgeneralmeaningisthatdivinecreationisperfectandisrepresentedorpresidedoverbyaperfectorcyclicalnumberhumangenerationisimperfectandrepresentedorpresidedoverbyanimperfectnumberorseriesofnumbersthenumberwhichisthenumberofthecitizensinthelawsisexpresslybasedbyhimonutilitariangroundsnamelytheconvenienceofthenumberfordivisionitisalsomadeupofthefirstsevendigitsmultipliedbyoneanotherthecontrastoftheperfectandimperfectnumbermayhavebeeneasilysuggestedbythecorrectionsofthecyclewhichweremadefirstbymetonandsecondlybycallippusthelatterissaidtohavebeenapupilofplatoofthedegreeofimportanceorofexactnesstobeattributedtotheproblemthenumberofthetyrantinbookixxandtheslightcorrectionoftheerrorinthenumberlawsmayfurnishacriterionthereisnothingsurprisinginthecircumstancethatthosewhowereseekingfororderinnatureandhadfoundorderinnumbershouldhaveimaginedonetogivelawtotheotherplatobelievesinapowerofnumberfarbeyondwhathecouldseerealizedintheworldaroundhimandheknowsthegreatinfluencewhichthelittlematterofexercisesuponeducationhemayevenbethoughttohaveapropheticanticipationofthediscoveriesofqueteletandothersthatnumbersdependuponnumberseginpopulationthenumbersofbirthsandtherespectivenumbersofchildrenbornofeithersexontherespectiveagesofparentsieonothernumbersbookixlastofallcomesthetyrannicalmanaboutwhomwehavetoenquirewhenceisheandhowdoesheliveinhappinessorinmiserythereishoweverapreviousquestionofthenatureandnumberoftheappetiteswhichishouldliketoconsiderfirstsomeofthemareunlawfulandyetadmitofbeingchastenedandweakenedinvariousdegreesbythepowerofreasonandlawwhatappetitesdoyoumeanimeanthosewhichareawakewhenthereasoningpowersareasleepwhichgetupandwalkaboutnakedwithoutanyselfrespectorshameandthereisnoconceivablefollyorcrimehowevercruelorunnaturalofwhichinimaginationtheymaynotbeguiltytruehesaidverytruebutwhenamanspulsebeatstemperatelyandhehassuppedonafeastofreasonandcometoaknowledgeofhimselfbeforegoingtorestandhassatisfiedhisdesiresjustenoughtopreventtheirperturbinghisreasonwhichremainsclearandluminousandwhenheisfreefromquarrelandheatthevisionswhichhehasonhisbedareleastirregularandabnormaleveningoodmenthereissuchanirregularwildbeastnaturewhichpeersoutinsleeptoreturnyourememberwhatwassaidofthedemocratthathewasthesonofamiserlyfatherwhoencouragedthesavingdesiresandrepressedtheornamentalandexpensiveonespresentlytheyouthgotintofinecompanyandbegantoentertainadisliketohisfathersnarrowwaysandbeingabettermanthanthecorruptersofhisyouthhecametoameanandledalifenotoflawlessorslavishpassionbutofregularandsuccessiveindulgencenowimaginethattheyouthhasbecomeafatherandhasasonwhoisexposedtothesametemptationsandhascompanionswholeadhimintoeverysortofiniquityandparentsandfriendswhotrytokeephimrightthecounsellorsofevilfindthattheironlychanceofretaininghimistoimplantinhissoulamonsterdroneorlovewhileotherdesiresbuzzaroundhimandmystifyhimwithsweetsoundsandscentsthismonsterlovetakespossessionofhimandputsanendtoeverytrueormodestthoughtorwishlovelikedrunkennessandmadnessisatyrannyandthetyrannicalmanwhethermadebynatureorhabitisjustadrinkinglustingfurioussortofanimalandhowdoessuchanonelivenaythatyoumusttellmewellthenifancythathewillliveamidrevelriesandharlotriesandlovewillbethelordandmasterofthehousemanydesiresrequiremuchmoneyandsohespendsallthathehasandborrowsmoreandwhenhehasnothingtheyoungravensarestillinthenestinwhichtheywerehatchedcryingforfoodloveurgesthemonandtheymustbegratifiedbyforceorfraudorifnottheybecomepainfulandtroublesomeandasthenewpleasuressucceedtheoldonessowillthesontakepossessionofthegoodsofhisparentsiftheyshowsignsofrefusinghewilldefraudanddeceivethemandiftheyopenlyresistwhatthenicanonlysaythatishouldnotmuchliketobeintheirplacebutoheavensadeimantustothinkthatforsomenewfangledandunnecessarylovehewillgiveuphisoldfatherandmotherbestanddearestoffriendsorenslavethemtothefanciesofthehourtrulyatyrannicalsonisablessingtohisfatherandmotherwhenthereisnomoretobegotoutofthemheturnsburglarorpickpocketorrobsatempleloveovermastersthethoughtsofhisyouthandhebecomesinsoberrealitythemonsterthathewassometimesinsleephewaxesstronginallviolenceandlawlessnessandisreadyforanydeedofdaringthatwillsupplythewantsofhisrabbleroutinawellorderedstatethereareonlyafewsuchandtheseintimeofwargooutandbecomethemercenariesofatyrantbutintimeofpeacetheystayathomeanddomischieftheyarethethievesfootpadscutpursesmanstealersofthecommunityoriftheyareabletospeaktheyturnfalsewitnessesandinformersnosmallcatalogueofcrimestrulyeveniftheperpetratorsarefewyesisaidbutsmallandgreatarerelativetermsandnocrimeswhicharecommittedbythemapproachthoseofthetyrantwhomthisclassgrowingstrongandnumerouscreateoutofthemselvesifthepeopleyieldwellandgoodbutiftheyresistthenasbeforehebeathisfatherandmothersonowhebeatshisfatherlandandmotherlandandplaceshismercenariesoverthemsuchmenintheirearlydayslivewithflatterersandtheythemselvesflatterothersinordertogaintheirendsbuttheysoondiscardtheirfollowerswhentheyhavenolongeranyneedofthemtheyarealwayseithermastersorservantsthejoysoffriendshipareunknowntothemandtheyareutterlytreacherousandunjustifthenatureofjusticebeatallunderstoodbyustheyrealizeourdreamandhewhoisthemostofatyrantbynatureandleadsthelifeofatyrantforthelongesttimewillbetheworstofthemandbeingtheworstofthemwillalsobethemostmiserablelikemanlikestatethetyrannicalmanwillanswertotyrannywhichistheextremeoppositeoftheroyalstateforoneisthebestandtheothertheworstbutwhichisthehappiergreatandterribleasthetyrantmayappearenthronedamidhissatellitesletusnotbeafraidtogoinandaskandtheansweristhatthemonarchicalisthehappiestandthetyrannicalthemostmiserableofstatesandmaywenotaskthesamequestionaboutthementhemselvesrequestingsomeonetolookintothemwhoisabletopenetratetheinnernatureofmanandwillnotbepanicstruckbythevainpompoftyrannyiwillsupposethatheisonewhohaslivedwithhimandhasseenhiminfamilylifeorperhapsinthehouroftroubleanddangerassumingthatweourselvesaretheimpartialjudgeforwhomweseekletusbeginbycomparingtheindividualandstateandaskfirstofallwhetherthestateislikelytobefreeorenslavedwilltherenotbealittlefreedomandagreatdealofslaveryandthefreedomisofthebadandtheslaveryofthegoodandthisappliestothemanaswellastothestateforhissoulisfullofmeannessandslaveryandthebetterpartisenslavedtotheworsehecannotdowhathewouldandhismindisfullofconfusionheistheveryreverseofafreemanthestatewillbepoorandfullofmiseryandsorrowandthemanssoulwillalsobepoorandfullofsorrowsandhewillbethemostmiserableofmennonotthemostmiserableforthereisyetamoremiserablewhoisthatthetyrannicalmanwhohasthemisfortunealsotobecomeapublictyrantthereisuspectthatyouarerightsayratheriamsureconjectureisoutofplaceinanenquiryofthisnatureheislikeawealthyownerofslavesonlyhehasmoreofthemthananyprivateindividualyouwillsaytheownersofslavesarenotgenerallyinanyfearofthembutwhybecausethewholecityisinaleaguewhichprotectstheindividualsupposehoweverthatoneoftheseownersandhishouseholdiscarriedoffbyagodintoawildernesswheretherearenofreementohelphimwillhenotbeinanagonyofterrorwillhenotbecompelledtoflatterhisslavesandtopromisethemmanythingssoreagainsthiswillandsupposethesamegodwhocarriedhimoffweretosurroundhimwithneighbourswhodeclarethatnomanoughttohaveslavesandthattheownersofthemshouldbepunishedwithdeathstillworseandworsehewillbeinthemidstofhisenemiesandisnotourtyrantsuchacaptivesoulwhoistormentedbyaswarmofpassionswhichhecannotindulgelivingindoorsalwayslikeawomanandjealousofthosewhocangooutandseetheworldhavingsomanyevilswillnotthemostmiserableofmenbestillmoremiserableinapublicstationmasterofotherswhenheisnotmasterofhimselflikeasickmanwhoiscompelledtobeanathletethemeanestofslavesandthemostabjectofflattererswantingallthingsandneverabletosatisfyhisdesiresalwaysinfearanddistractionlikethestateofwhichheistherepresentativehisjealoushatefulfaithlesstempergrowsworsewithcommandheismoreandmorefaithlessenviousunrighteousthemostwretchedofmenamiserytohimselfandtoothersandsoletushaveafinaltrialandproclamationneedwehireaheraldorshalliproclaimtheresultmadetheproclamationyourselfthesonofaristonthebestisofopinionthatthebestandjustestofmenisalsothehappiestandthatthisishewhoisthemostroyalmasterofhimselfandthattheunjustmanishewhoisthegreatesttyrantofhimselfandofhisstateandiaddfurtherseenorunseenbygodsormenthisisourfirstproofthesecondisderivedfromthethreekindsofpleasurewhichanswertothethreeelementsofthesoulreasonpassiondesireunderwhichlastiscomprehendedavariceaswellassensualappetitewhilepassionincludesambitionpartyfeelingloveofreputationreasonagainissolelydirectedtotheattainmentoftruthandcarelessofmoneyandreputationinaccordancewiththedifferenceofmensnaturesoneofthesethreeprinciplesisintheascendantandtheyhavetheirseveralpleasurescorrespondingtotheminterrogatenowthethreenaturesandeachonewillbefoundpraisinghisownpleasuresanddepreciatingthoseofothersthemoneymakerwillcontrastthevanityofknowledgewiththesolidadvantagesofwealththeambitiousmanwilldespiseknowledgewhichbringsnohonourwhereasthephilosopherwillregardonlythefruitionoftruthandwillcallotherpleasuresnecessaryratherthangoodnowhowshallwedecidebetweenthemisthereanybettercriterionthanexperienceandknowledgeandwhichofthethreehasthetruestknowledgeandthewidestexperiencetheexperienceofyouthmakesthephilosopheracquaintedwiththetwokindsofdesirebuttheavariciousandtheambitiousmannevertastethepleasuresoftruthandwisdomhonourhehasequallywiththemtheyarejudgedofhimbutheisnotjudgedofthemfortheyneverattaintotheknowledgeoftruebeingandhisinstrumentisreasonwhereastheirstandardisonlywealthandhonourandifbyreasonwearetojudgehisgoodwillbethetruestandsowearriveattheresultthatthepleasureoftherationalpartofthesoulandalifepassedinsuchpleasureisthepleasantesthewhohasarighttojudgejudgesthusnextcomesthelifeofambitionandinthethirdplacethatofmoneymakingtwicehasthejustmanoverthrowntheunjustoncemoreasinanolympiancontestfirstofferingupaprayertothesaviourzeuslethimtryafallawisemanwhisperstomethatthepleasuresofthewisearetrueandpureallothersareashadowonlyletusexaminethisisnotpleasureopposedtopainandistherenotameanstatewhichisneitherwhenamanissicknothingismorepleasanttohimthanhealthbutthisheneverfoundoutwhilehewaswellinpainhedesiresonlytoceasefrompainontheotherhandwhenheisinanecstasyofpleasurerestispainfultohimthusrestorcessationisbothpleasureandpainbutcanthatwhichisneitherbecomebothagainpleasureandpainaremotionsandtheabsenceofthemisrestbutifsohowcantheabsenceofeitherofthembetheotherthusweareledtoinferthatthecontradictionisanappearanceonlyandwitcheryofthesensesandthesearenottheonlypleasuresforthereareotherswhichhavenoprecedingpainspurepleasurethenisnottheabsenceofpainnorpurepaintheabsenceofpleasurealthoughmostofthepleasureswhichreachthemindthroughthebodyarereliefsofpainandhavenotonlytheirreactionswhentheydepartbuttheiranticipationsbeforetheycometheycanbebestdescribedinasimilethereisinnatureanupperlowerandmiddleregionandhewhopassesfromthelowertothemiddleimaginesthatheisgoingupandisalreadyintheupperworldandifheweretakenbackagainwouldthinkandtrulythinkthathewasdescendingallthisarisesoutofhisignoranceofthetrueuppermiddleandlowerregionsandalikeconfusionhappenswithpleasureandpainandwithmanyotherthingsthemanwhocomparesgreywithblackcallsgreywhiteandthemanwhocomparesabsenceofpainwithpaincallstheabsenceofpainpleasureagainhungerandthirstareinanitionsofthebodyignoranceandfollyofthesoulandfoodisthesatisfactionoftheoneknowledgeoftheothernowwhichisthepurersatisfactionthatofeatinganddrinkingorthatofknowledgeconsiderthematterthusthesatisfactionofthatwhichhasmoreexistenceistruerthanofthatwhichhaslesstheinvariableandimmortalhasamorerealexistencethanthevariableandmortalandhasacorrespondingmeasureofknowledgeandtruththesoulagainhasmoreexistenceandtruthandknowledgethanthebodyandisthereforemorereallysatisfiedandhasamorenaturalpleasurethosewhofeastonlyonearthlyfoodarealwaysgoingatrandomuptothemiddleanddownagainbuttheyneverpassintothetrueupperworldorhaveatasteoftruepleasuretheyarelikefattedbeastsfullofgluttonyandsensualityandreadytokilloneanotherbyreasonoftheirinsatiablelustfortheyarenotfilledwithtruebeingandtheirvesselisleakygorgiastheirpleasuresaremereshadowsofpleasuremixedwithpaincolouredandintensifiedbycontrastandthereforeintenselydesiredandmengofightingaboutthemasstesichorussaysthatthegreeksfoughtabouttheshadowofhelenattroybecausetheyknownotthetruththesamemaybesaidofthepassionateelementthedesiresoftheambitioussoulaswellasofthecovetoushaveaninferiorsatisfactiononlywhenundertheguidanceofreasondoeitheroftheotherprinciplesdotheirownbusinessorattainthepleasurewhichisnaturaltothemwhennotattainingtheycompeltheotherpartsofthesoultopursueashadowofpleasurewhichisnottheirsandthemoredistanttheyarefromphilosophyandreasonthemoredistanttheywillbefromlawandorderandthemoreillusivewillbetheirpleasuresthedesiresofloveandtyrannyarethefarthestfromlawandthoseofthekingarenearesttoitthereisonegenuinepleasureandtwospuriousonesthetyrantgoesbeyondeventhelatterhehasrunawayaltogetherfromlawandreasonnorcanthemeasureofhisinferioritybetoldexceptinafigurethetyrantisthethirdremovedfromtheoligarchandhasthereforenotashadowofhispleasurebuttheshadowofashadowonlytheoligarchagainisthriceremovedfromthekingandthuswegettheformulaxwhichisthenumberofasurfacerepresentingtheshadowwhichisthetyrantspleasureandifyouliketocubethisnumberofthebeastyouwillfindthatthemeasureofthedifferenceamountstothekingistimesmorehappythanthetyrantandthisextraordinarynumberisnearlyequaltothenumberofdaysandnightsinayearxandisthereforeconcernedwithhumanlifethisistheintervalbetweenagoodandbadmaninhappinessonlywhatmustbethedifferencebetweenthemincomelinessoflifeandvirtueperhapsyoumayremembersomeonesayingatthebeginningofourdiscussionthattheunjustmanwasprofitedifhehadthereputationofjusticenowthatweknowthenatureofjusticeandinjusticeletusmakeanimageofthesoulwhichwillpersonifyhiswordsfirstofallfashionamultitudinousbeasthavingaringofheadsofallmannerofanimalstameandwildandabletoproduceandchangethematpleasuresupposenowanotherformofalionandanotherofamanthesecondsmallerthanthefirstthethirdthanthesecondjointhemtogetherandcoverthemwithahumanskininwhichtheyarecompletelyconcealedwhenthishasbeendoneletustellthesupporterofinjusticethatheisfeedingupthebeastsandstarvingthemanthemaintainerofjusticeontheotherhandistryingtostrengthenthemanheisnourishingthegentleprinciplewithinhimandmakinganalliancewiththelionheartinorderthathemaybeabletokeepdownthemanyheadedhydraandbringallintounitywitheachotherandwiththemselvesthusineverypointofviewwhetherinrelationtopleasurehonouroradvantagethejustmanisrightandtheunjustwrongbutnowletusreasonwiththeunjustwhoisnotintentionallyinerrorisnotthenoblethatwhichsubjectsthebeasttothemanorrathertothegodinmantheignoblethatwhichsubjectsthemantothebeastandifsowhowouldreceivegoldonconditionthathewastodegradethenoblestpartofhimselfundertheworstwhowouldsellhissonordaughterintothehandsofbrutalandevilmenforanyamountofmoneyandwillhesellhisownfaireranddivinerpartwithoutanycompunctiontothemostgodlessandfoulwouldhenotbeworsethaneriphylewhosoldherhusbandslifeforanecklaceandintemperanceisthelettinglooseofthemultiformmonsterandprideandsullennessarethegrowthandincreaseofthelionandserpentelementwhileluxuryandeffeminacyarecausedbyatoogreatrelaxationofspiritflatteryandmeannessagainarisewhenthespiritedelementissubjectedtoavariceandthelionishabituatedtobecomeamonkeytherealdisgraceofhandicraftartsisthatthosewhoareengagedinthemhavetoflatterinsteadofmasteringtheirdesiresthereforewesaythattheyshouldbeplacedunderthecontrolofthebetterprincipleinanotherbecausetheyhavenoneinthemselvesnotasthrasymachusimaginedtotheinjuryofthesubjectsbutfortheirgoodandourintentionineducatingtheyoungistogivethemselfcontrolthelawdesirestonurseupinthemahigherprincipleandwhentheyhaveacquiredthistheymaygotheirwayswhatthenshallamanprofitifhegainthewholeworldandbecomemoreandmorewickedorwhatshallheprofitbyescapingdiscoveryiftheconcealmentofevilpreventsthecureifhehadbeenpunishedthebrutewithinhimwouldhavebeensilencedandthegentlerelementliberatedandhewouldhaveunitedtemperancejusticeandwisdominhissoulaunionbetterfarthananycombinationofbodilygiftsthemanofunderstandingwillhonourknowledgeaboveallinthenextplacehewillkeepunderhisbodynotonlyforthesakeofhealthandstrengthbutinordertoattainthemostperfectharmonyofbodyandsoulintheacquisitionofrichestoohewillaimatorderandharmonyhewillnotdesiretoheapupwealthwithoutmeasurebuthewillfearthattheincreaseofwealthwilldisturbtheconstitutionofhisownsoulforthesamereasonhewillonlyacceptsuchhonoursaswillmakehimabettermananyothershewilldeclineinthatcasesaidhehewillneverbeapoliticianyesbuthewillinhisowncitythoughprobablynotinhisnativecountryunlessbysomedivineaccidentyoumeanthathewillbeacitizenoftheidealcitywhichhasnoplaceuponearthbutinheavenirepliedthereisapatternofsuchacityandhewhowishesmayorderhislifeafterthatimagewhethersuchastateisoreverwillbemattersnothewillactaccordingtothatpatternandnootherthemostnoticeablepointsinthethbookoftherepublicaretheaccountofpleasurethenumberoftheintervalwhichdividesthekingfromthetyrantthepatternwhichisinheavenplatosaccountofpleasureisremarkableformoderationandinthisrespectcontrastswiththelaterplatonistsandtheviewswhichareattributedtothembyaristotleheisnotlikethecynicsopposedtoallpleasurebutratherdesiresthattheseveralpartsofthesoulshallhavetheirnaturalsatisfactionheevenagreeswiththeepicureansindescribingpleasureassomethingmorethantheabsenceofpainthisisprovedbythecircumstancethattherearepleasureswhichhavenoantecedentpainsashealsoremarksinthephilebussuchasthepleasuresofsmellandalsothepleasuresofhopeandanticipationinthepreviousbookhehadmadethedistinctionbetweennecessaryandunnecessarypleasurewhichisrepeatedbyaristotleandhenowobservesthatthereareafurtherclassofwildbeastpleasurescorrespondingtoaristotlesgreekhedwellsupontherelativeandunrealcharacterofsensualpleasuresandtheillusionwhicharisesoutofthecontrastofpleasureandpainpointingoutthesuperiorityofthepleasuresofreasonwhichareatrestoverthefleetingpleasuresofsenseandemotionthepreeminenceofroyalpleasureisshownbythefactthatreasonisabletoformajudgmentofthelowerpleasureswhilethetwolowerpartsofthesoulareincapableofjudgingthepleasuresofreasonthusinhistreatmentofpleasureasinmanyothersubjectsthephilosophyofplatoissawnupintoquantitiesbyaristotletheanalysiswhichwasoriginallymadebyhimbecameinthenextgenerationthefoundationoffurthertechnicaldistinctionsbothinplatoandaristotlewenotetheillusionunderwhichtheancientsfellofregardingthetransienceofpleasureasaproofofitsunrealityandofconfoundingthepermanenceoftheintellectualpleasureswiththeunchangeablenessoftheknowledgefromwhichtheyarederivedneitherdoweliketoadmitthatthepleasuresofknowledgethoughmoreelevatingarenotmorelastingthanotherpleasuresandarealmostequallydependentontheaccidentsofourbodilystateintroductiontophilebusthenumberoftheintervalwhichseparatesthekingfromthetyrantandroyalfromtyrannicalpleasuresisthecubeofwhichplatocharacteristicallydesignatesasanumberconcernedwithhumanlifebecausenearlyequivalenttothenumberofdaysandnightsintheyearheisdesirousofproclaimingthattheintervalbetweenthemisimmeasurableandinventsaformulatogiveexpressiontohisideathosewhospokeofjusticeasacubeofvirtueasanartofmeasuringprotsawnoinappropriatenessinconceivingthesoulunderthefigureofalineorthepleasureofthetyrantasseparatedfromthepleasureofthekingbythenumericalintervalofandinmoderntimeswesometimesusemetaphoricallywhatplatoemployedasaphilosophicalformulaitisnoteasytoestimatethelossofthetyrantexceptperhapsinthiswaysaysplatosowemightsaythatalthoughthelifeofagoodmanisnottobecomparedtothatofabadmanyetyoumaymeasurethedifferencebetweenthembyvaluingoneminuteoftheoneatanhouroftheotheronedayinthycourtsisbetterthanathousandoryoumightsaythatthereisaninfinitedifferencebutthisisnotsomuchassayinginhomelyphrasetheyareathousandmilesasunderandaccordinglyplatofindsthenaturalvehicleofhisthoughtsinaprogressionofnumbersthisarithmeticalformulahedrawsoutwiththeutmostseriousnessandbothhereandinthenumberofgenerationseemstofindanadditionalproofofthetruthofhisspeculationinformingthenumberintoageometricalfigurejustaspersonsinourowndayareapttofancythatastatementisverifiedwhenithasbeenonlythrownintoanabstractforminspeakingofthenumberaspropertohumanlifeheprobablyintendedtointimatethatoneyearofthetyrannicalhoursoftheroyallifethesimpleobservationthatthecomparisonoftwosimilarsolidsiseffectedbythecomparisonofthecubesoftheirsidesisthemathematicalgroundworkofthisfancifulexpressionthereissomedifficultyinexplainingthestepsbywhichthenumberisobtainedtheoligarchisremovedinthethirddegreefromtheroyalandaristocraticalandthetyrantinthethirddegreefromtheoligarchicalbutwehavetoarrangethetermsasthesidesofasquareandtocounttheoligarchtwiceoverthusreckoningthemnotasbutasthesquareofispassedlightlyoverasonlyasteptowardsthecubetowardsthecloseoftherepublicplatoseemstobemoreandmoreconvincedoftheidealcharacterofhisownspeculationsattheendofthethbookthepatternwhichisinheaventakestheplaceofthecityofphilosophersonearththevisionwhichhasreceivedformandsubstanceathishandsisnowdiscoveredtobeatadistanceandyetthisdistantkingdomisalsotheruleofmanslifesaynotlohereorlothereforthekingdomofgodiswithinyouthusanoteisstruckwhichpreparesfortherevelationofafuturelifeinthefollowingbookbutthefuturelifeispresentstilltheidealofpoliticsistoberealizedintheindividualbookxmanythingspleasedmeintheorderofourstatebuttherewasnothingwhichilikedbetterthantheregulationaboutpoetrythedivisionofthesoulthrowsanewlightonourexclusionofimitationidonotmindtellingyouinconfidencethatallpoetryisanoutrageontheunderstandingunlessthehearershavethatbalmofknowledgewhichhealserrorihavelovedhomereversinceiwasaboyandevennowheappearstometobethegreatmasteroftragicpoetrybutmuchasilovethemanilovetruthmoreandthereforeimustspeakoutandfirstofallwillyouexplainwhatisimitationforreallyidonotunderstandhowlikelythenthatishouldunderstandthatmightverywellbeforthedulleroftenseesbetterthanthekeenereyetruebutinyourpresenceicanhardlyventuretosaywhatithinkthensupposethatwebegininouroldfashionwiththedoctrineofuniversalsletusassumetheexistenceofbedsandtablesthereisoneideaofabedorofatablewhichthemakerofeachhadinhismindwhenmakingthemhedidnotmaketheideasofbedsandtablesbuthemadebedsandtablesaccordingtotheideasandistherenotamakeroftheworksofallworkmenwhomakesnotonlyvesselsbutplantsandanimalshimselftheearthandheavenandthingsinheavenandundertheearthhemakesthegodsalsohemustbeawizardindeedbutdoyounotseethatthereisasenseinwhichyoucoulddothesameyouhaveonlytotakeamirrorandcatchthereflectionofthesunandtheearthoranythingelsetherenowyouhavemadethemyesbutonlyinappearanceexactlysoandthepainterissuchacreatorasyouarewiththemirrorandheisevenmoreunrealthanthecarpenteralthoughneitherthecarpenternoranyotherartistcanbesupposedtomaketheabsolutebednotifphilosophersmaybebelievednorneedwewonderthathisbedhasbutanimperfectrelationtothetruthreflectherearethreebedsoneinnaturewhichismadebygodanotherwhichismadebythecarpenterandthethirdbythepaintergodonlymadeonenorcouldhehavemademorethanoneforiftherehadbeentwotherewouldalwayshavebeenathirdmoreabsoluteandabstractthaneitherunderwhichtheywouldhavebeenincludedwemaythereforeconceivegodtobethenaturalmakerofthebedandinalowersensethecarpenterisalsothemakerbutthepainterisrathertheimitatorofwhattheothertwomakehehastodowithacreationwhichisthriceremovedfromrealityandthetragicpoetisanimitatorandlikeeveryotherimitatoristhriceremovedfromthekingandfromthetruththepainterimitatesnottheoriginalbedbutthebedmadebythecarpenterandthiswithoutbeingreallydifferentappearstobedifferentandhasmanypointsofviewofwhichonlyoneiscaughtbythepainterwhorepresentseverythingbecauseherepresentsapieceofeverythingandthatpieceanimageandhecanpaintanyotherartistalthoughheknowsnothingoftheirartsandthiswithsufficientskilltodeceivechildrenorsimplepeoplesupposenowthatsomebodycametousandtoldushowhehadmetamanwhoknewallthateverybodyknowsandbetterthananybodyshouldwenotinferhimtobeasimpletonwhohavingnodiscernmentoftruthandfalsehoodhadmetwithawizardorenchanterwhomhefanciedtobeallwiseandwhenwehearpersonssayingthathomerandthetragediansknowalltheartsandallthevirtuesmustwenotinferthattheyareunderasimilardelusiontheydonotseethatthepoetsareimitatorsandthattheircreationsareonlyimitationsverytruebutifapersoncouldcreateaswellasimitatehewouldratherleavesomepermanentworkandnotanimitationonlyhewouldratherbethereceiverthanthegiverofpraiseyesforthenhewouldhavemorehonourandadvantageletusnowinterrogatehomerandthepoetsfriendhomersayitohimiamnotgoingtoaskyouaboutmedicineoranyarttowhichyourpoemsincidentallyreferbutabouttheirmainsubjectswarmilitarytacticspoliticsifyouareonlytwiceandnotthriceremovedfromthetruthnotanimitatororanimagemakerpleasetoinformuswhatgoodyouhaveeverdonetomankindisthereanycitywhichprofessestohavereceivedlawsfromyouassicilyanditalyhavefromcharondasspartafromlycurgusathensfromsolonorwasanywarevercarriedonbyyourcounselsorisanyinventionattributedtoyouasthereistothalesandanacharsisoristhereanyhomericwayoflifesuchasthepythagoreanwasinwhichyouinstructedmenandwhichiscalledafteryounoindeedandcreophylusfleshchildwasevenmoreunfortunateinhisbreedingthanhewasinhisnameifastraditionsayshomerinhislifetimewasallowedbyhimandhisotherfriendstostarveyesbutcouldthiseverhavehappenedifhomerhadreallybeentheeducatorofhellaswouldhenothavehadmanydevotedfollowersifprotagorasandprodicuscanpersuadetheircontemporariesthatnoonecanmanagehouseorstatewithoutthemisitlikelythathomerandhesiodwouldhavebeenallowedtogoaboutasbeggarsimeaniftheyhadreallybeenabletodotheworldanygoodwouldnotmenhavecompelledthemtostaywheretheywereorhavefollowedthemaboutinordertogeteducationbuttheydidnotandthereforewemayinferthathomerandallthepoetsareonlyimitatorswhodobutimitatetheappearancesofthingsforasapainterbyaknowledgeoffigureandcolourcanpaintacobblerwithoutanypracticeincobblingsothepoetcandelineateanyartinthecoloursoflanguageandgiveharmonyandrhythmtothecobblerandalsotothegeneralandyouknowhowmerenarrationwhendeprivedoftheornamentsofmetreislikeafacewhichhaslostthebeautyofyouthandneverhadanyotheroncemoretheimitatorhasnoknowledgeofrealitybutonlyofappearancethepainterpaintsandtheartificermakesabridleandreinsbutneitherunderstandstheuseofthemtheknowledgeofthisisconfinedtothehorsemanandsoofotherthingsthuswehavethreeartsoneofuseanotherofinventionathirdofimitationandtheuserfurnishestheruletothetwoothersthefluteplayerwillknowthegoodandbadfluteandthemakerwillputfaithinhimbuttheimitatorwillneitherknownorhavefaithneithersciencenortrueopinioncanbeascribedtohimimitationthenisdevoidofknowledgebeingonlyakindofplayorsportandthetragicandepicpoetsareimitatorsinthehighestdegreeandnowletusenquirewhatisthefacultyinmanwhichanswerstoimitationallowmetoexplainmymeaningobjectsaredifferentlyseenwheninthewaterandwhenoutofthewaterwhennearandwhenatadistanceandthepainterorjugglermakesuseofthisvariationtoimposeuponusandtheartofmeasuringandweighingandcalculatingcomesintosaveourbewilderedmindsfromthepowerofappearanceforasweweresayingtwocontraryopinionsofthesameaboutthesameandatthesametimecannotbothofthembetruebutwhichofthemistrueisdeterminedbytheartofcalculationandthisisalliedtothebetterfacultyinthesoulastheartsofimitationaretotheworseandthesameholdsoftheearaswellasoftheeyeofpoetryaswellaspaintingtheimitationisofactionsvoluntaryorinvoluntaryinwhichthereisanexpectationofagoodorbadresultandpresentexperienceofpleasureandpainbutisamaninharmonywithhimselfwhenheisthesubjectoftheseconflictinginfluencesistherenotratheracontradictioninhimletmefurtheraskwhetherheismorelikelytocontrolsorrowwhenheisaloneorwhenheisincompanyinthelattercasefeelingwouldleadhimtoindulgehissorrowbutreasonandlawcontrolhimandenjoinpatiencesincehecannotknowwhetherhisafflictionisgoodorevilandnohumanthingisofanygreatconsequencewhilesorrowiscertainlyahindrancetogoodcounselforwhenwestumbleweshouldnotlikechildrenmakeanuproarweshouldtakethemeasureswhichreasonprescribesnotraisingalamentbutfindingacureandthebetterpartofusisreadytofollowreasonwhiletheirrationalprincipleisfullofsorrowanddistractionattherecollectionofourtroublesunfortunatelyhoweverthislatterfurnishesthechiefmaterialsoftheimitativeartswhereasreasoniseverinreposeandcannoteasilybedisplayedespeciallytoamixedmultitudewhohavenoexperienceofherthusthepoetislikethepainterintwowaysfirsthepaintsaninferiordegreeoftruthandsecondlyheisconcernedwithaninferiorpartofthesoulheindulgesthefeelingswhileheenfeeblesthereasonandwerefusetoallowhimtohaveauthorityoverthemindofmanforhehasnomeasureofgreaterandlessandisamakerofimagesandveryfargonefromtruthbutwehavenotyetmentionedtheheaviestcountintheindictmentthepowerwhichpoetryhasofinjuriouslyexcitingthefeelingswhenwehearsomepassageinwhichaherolamentshissufferingsattediouslengthyouknowthatwesympathizewithhimandpraisethepoetandyetinourownsorrowssuchanexhibitionoffeelingisregardedaseffeminateandunmanlyionnowoughtamantofeelpleasureinseeinganotherdowhathehatesandabominatesinhimselfishenotgivingwaytoasentimentwhichinhisowncasehewouldcontrolheisoffhisguardbecausethesorrowisanothersandhethinksthathemayindulgehisfeelingswithoutdisgraceandwillbethegainerbythepleasurebuttheinevitableconsequenceisthathewhobeginsbyweepingatthesorrowsofotherswillendbyweepingathisownthesameistrueofcomedyyoumayoftenlaughatbuffoonerywhichyouwouldbeashamedtoutterandtheloveofcoarsemerrimentonthestagewillatlastturnyouintoabuffoonathomepoetryfeedsandwatersthepassionsanddesiressheletsthemruleinsteadofrulingthemandthereforewhenweheartheencomiastsofhomeraffirmingthatheistheeducatorofhellasandthatalllifeshouldberegulatedbyhispreceptswemayallowtheexcellenceoftheirintentionsandagreewiththeminthinkinghomeragreatpoetandtragedianbutweshallcontinuetoprohibitallpoetrywhichgoesbeyondhymnstothegodsandpraisesoffamousmennotpleasureandpainbutlawandreasonshallruleinourstatetheseareourgroundsforexpellingpoetrybutlestsheshouldchargeuswithdiscourtesyletusalsomakeanapologytoherwewillremindherthatthereisanancientquarrelbetweenpoetryandphilosophyofwhichtherearemanytracesinthewritingsofthepoetssuchasthesayingoftheshedogyelpingathermistressandthephilosopherswhoarereadytocircumventzeusandthephilosopherswhoarepaupersneverthelesswebearhernoillwillandwillgladlyallowhertoreturnuponconditionthatshemakesadefenceofherselfinverseandhersupporterswhoarenotpoetsmayspeakinproseweconfesshercharmsbutifshecannotshowthatsheisusefulaswellasdelightfullikerationalloverswemustrenounceourlovethoughendearedtousbyearlyassociationshavingcometoyearsofdiscretionweknowthatpoetryisnottruthandthatamanshouldbecarefulhowheintroduceshertothatstateorconstitutionwhichhehimselfisforthereisamightyissueatstakenolessthanthegoodorevilofahumansoulanditisnotworthwhiletoforsakejusticeandvirtuefortheattractionsofpoetryanymorethanforthesakeofhonourorwealthiagreewithyouandyettherewardsofvirtuearegreaterfarthanihavedescribedandcanweconceivethingsgreaterstillnotperhapsinthisbriefspanoflifebutshouldanimmortalbeingcareaboutanythingshortofeternityidonotunderstandwhatyoumeandoyounotknowthatthesoulisimmortalsurelyyouarenotpreparedtoprovethatindeediamthenletmehearthisargumentofwhichyoumakesolightyouwouldadmitthateverythinghasanelementofgoodandofevilinallthingsthereisaninherentcorruptionandifthiscannotdestroythemnothingelsewillthesoultoohasherowncorruptingprincipleswhichareinjusticeintemperancecowardiceandthelikebutnoneofthesedestroythesoulinthesamesensethatdiseasedestroysthebodythesoulmaybefullofalliniquitiesbutisnotbyreasonofthembroughtanynearertodeathnothingwhichwasnotdestroyedfromwithineverperishedbyexternalaffectionofevilthebodywhichisonethingcannotbedestroyedbyfoodwhichisanotherunlessthebadnessofthefoodiscommunicatedtothebodyneithercanthesoulwhichisonethingbecorruptedbythebodywhichisanotherunlesssheherselfisinfectedandasnobodilyevilcaninfectthesoulneithercananybodilyevilwhetherdiseaseorviolenceoranyotherdestroythesoulunlessitcanbeshowntorenderherunholyandunjustbutnoonewilleverprovethatthesoulsofmenbecomemoreunjustwhentheydieifapersonhastheaudacitytosaythecontrarytheansweristhenwhydocriminalsrequirethehandoftheexecutionerandnotdieofthemselvestrulyhesaidinjusticewouldnotbeveryterribleifitbroughtacessationofevilbutiratherbelievethattheinjusticewhichmurdersothersmaytendtoquickenandstimulatethelifeoftheunjustyouarequiterightifsinwhichisherownnaturalandinherentevilcannotdestroythesoulhardlywillanythingelsedestroyherbutthesoulwhichcannotbedestroyedeitherbyinternalorexternalevilmustbeimmortalandeverlastingandifthisbetruesoulswillalwaysexistinthesamenumbertheycannotdiminishbecausetheycannotbedestroyednoryetincreasefortheincreaseoftheimmortalmustcomefromsomethingmortalandsoallwouldendinimmortalityneitheristhesoulvariableanddiverseforthatwhichisimmortalmustbeofthefairestandsimplestcompositionifwewouldconceivehertrulyandsobeholdjusticeandinjusticeintheirownnatureshemustbeviewedbythelightofreasonpureasatbirthorassheisreflectedinphilosophywhenholdingconversewiththedivineandimmortalandeternalinherpresentconditionweseeheronlyliketheseagodglaucusbruisedandmaimedintheseawhichistheworldandcoveredwithshellsandstoneswhichareincrusteduponherfromtheentertainmentsofearththusfarastheargumentrequiredwehavesaidnothingoftherewardsandhonourswhichthepoetsattributetojusticewehavecontentedourselveswithshowingthatjusticeinherselfisbestforthesoulinherselfevenifamanshouldputonagygesringandhavethehelmetofhadestooandnowyoushallrepaymewhatyouborrowedandiwillenumeratetherewardsofjusticeinlifeandafterdeathigrantedforthesakeofargumentasyouwillrememberthatevilmightperhapsescapetheknowledgeofgodsandmenalthoughthiswasreallyimpossibleandsinceihaveshownthatjusticehasrealityyoumustgrantmealsothatshehasthepalmofappearanceinthefirstplacethejustmanisknowntothegodsandheisthereforethefriendofthegodsandhewillreceiveattheirhandseverygoodalwaysexceptingsuchevilasisthenecessaryconsequenceofformersinsallthingsendingoodtohimeitherinlifeorafterdeathevenwhatappearstobeevilforthegodshaveacareofhimwhodesirestobeintheirlikenessandwhatshallwesayofmenisnothonestythebestpolicythecleverroguemakesagreatstartatfirstbutbreaksdownbeforehereachesthegoalandslinksawayindishonourwhereasthetruerunnerperseverestotheendandreceivestheprizeandyoumustallowmetorepeatalltheblessingswhichyouattributedtothefortunateunjusttheybearruleinthecitytheymarryandgiveinmarriagetowhomtheywillandtheevilswhichyouattributedtotheunfortunatejustdoreallyfallintheendontheunjustalthoughasyouimpliedtheirsufferingsarebetterveiledinsilencebutalltheblessingsofthispresentlifeareasnothingwhencomparedwiththosewhichawaitgoodmenafterdeathishouldliketohearaboutthemcomethenandiwilltellyouthestoryoferthesonofarmeniusavaliantmanhewassupposedtohavediedinbattlebuttendaysafterwardshisbodywasfounduntouchedbycorruptionandsenthomeforburialonthetwelfthdayhewasplacedonthefuneralpyreandtherehecametolifeagainandtoldwhathehadseenintheworldbelowhesaidthathissoulwentwithagreatcompanytoaplaceinwhichthereweretwochasmsneartogetherintheearthbeneathandtwocorrespondingchasmsintheheavenaboveandtherewerejudgessittingintheintermediatespacebiddingthejustascendbytheheavenlywayontherighthandhavingthesealoftheirjudgmentsetuponthembeforewhiletheunjusthavingthesealbehindwerebiddentodescendbythewayonthelefthandhimtheytoldtolookandlistenashewastobetheirmessengertomenfromtheworldbelowandhebeheldandsawthesoulsdepartingafterjudgmentateitherchasmsomewhocamefromearthwerewornandtravelstainedotherswhocamefromheavenwerecleanandbrighttheyseemedgladtomeetandrestawhileinthemeadowheretheydiscoursedwithoneanotherofwhattheyhadseenintheotherworldthosewhocamefromearthweptattheremembranceoftheirsorrowsbutthespiritsfromabovespokeofglorioussightsandheavenlyblisshesaidthatforeveryevildeedtheywerepunishedtenfoldnowthejourneywasofathousandyearsdurationbecausethelifeofmanwasreckonedasahundredyearsandtherewardsofvirtuewereinthesameproportionheaddedsomethinghardlyworthrepeatingaboutinfantsdyingalmostassoonastheywerebornofparricidesandothermurderershehadtorturesstillmoreterribletonarratehewaspresentwhenoneofthespiritsaskedwhereisardiaeusthegreatthisardiaeuswasacrueltyrantwhohadmurderedhisfatherandhiselderbrotherathousandyearsbeforeanotherspiritansweredhecomesnothitherandwillnevercomeandimyselfheaddedactuallysawthisterriblesightattheentranceofthechasmaswewereabouttoreascendardiaeusappearedandsomeothersinnersmostofwhomhadbeentyrantsbutnotallandjustastheyfanciedthattheywerereturningtolifethechasmgavearoarandthenwildfierylookingmenwhoknewthemeaningofthesoundseizedhimandseveralothersandboundthemhandandfootandthrewthemdownanddraggedthemalongatthesideoftheroadlaceratingthemandcardingthemlikewoolandexplainingtothepassersbythattheyweregoingtobecastintohellthegreatestterrorofthepilgrimsascendingwaslesttheyshouldhearthevoiceandwhentherewassilenceonebyonetheypassedupwithjoytothesesufferingstherewerecorrespondingdelightsontheeighthdaythesoulsofthepilgrimsresumedtheirjourneyandinfourdayscametoaspotwhencetheylookeddownuponalineoflightincolourlikearainbowonlybrighterandcleareronedaymorebroughtthemtotheplaceandtheysawthatthiswasthecolumnoflightwhichbindstogetherthewholeuniversetheendsofthecolumnwerefastenedtoheavenandfromthemhungthedistaffofnecessityonwhichalltheheavenlybodiesturnedthehookandspindlewereofadamantandthewhorlofamixedsubstancethewhorlwasinformlikeanumberofboxesfittingintooneanotherwiththeiredgesturnedupwardsmakingtogetherasinglewhorlwhichwaspiercedbythespindletheoutermosthadtherimbroadestandtheinnerwhorlsweresmallerandsmallerandhadtheirrimsnarrowerthelargestthefixedstarswasspangledthesevenththesunwasbrightesttheeighththemoonshonebythelightofthesevenththesecondandfifthsaturnandmercuryweremostlikeoneanotherandyellowerthantheeighththethirdjupiterhadthewhitestlightthefourthmarswasredthesixthvenuswasinwhitenesssecondthewholehadonemotionbutwhilethiswasrevolvinginonedirectiontheseveninnercirclesweremovingintheoppositewithvariousdegreesofswiftnessandslownessthespindleturnedonthekneesofnecessityandasirenstoodhymninguponeachcirclewhilelachesisclothoandatroposthedaughtersofnecessitysatonthronesatequalintervalssingingofpastpresentandfutureresponsivetothemusicofthesirensclothofromtimetotimeguidingtheoutercirclewithatouchofherrighthandatroposwithherlefthandtouchingandguidingtheinnercircleslachesisinturnputtingforthherhandfromtimetotimetoguidebothofthemontheirarrivalthepilgrimswenttolachesisandtherewasaninterpreterwhoarrangedthemandtakingfromherkneeslotsandsamplesoflivesgotupintoapulpitandsaidmortalsoulshearthewordsoflachesisthedaughterofnecessityanewperiodofmortallifehasbegunandyoumaychoosewhatdivinityyoupleasetheresponsibilityofchoosingiswithyougodisblamelessafterspeakingthushecastthelotsamongthemandeachonetookupthelotwhichfellnearhimhethenplacedonthegroundbeforethemthesamplesoflivesmanymorethanthesoulspresentandtherewereallsortsoflivesofmenandofanimalsthereweretyranniesendinginmiseryandexileandlivesofmenandwomenfamousfortheirdifferentqualitiesandalsomixedlivesmadeupofwealthandpovertysicknessandhealthhereglauconisthegreatriskofhumanlifeandthereforethewholeofeducationshouldbedirectedtotheacquisitionofsuchaknowledgeaswillteachamantorefusetheevilandchoosethegoodheshouldknowallthecombinationswhichoccurinlifeofbeautywithpovertyorwithwealthofknowledgewithexternalgoodsandatlastchoosewithreferencetothenatureofthesoulregardingthatonlyasthebetterlifewhichmakesmenbetterandleavingtherestandamanmusttakewithhimanironsenseoftruthandrightintotheworldbelowthattheretoohemayremainundazzledbywealthortheallurementsofevilandbedeterminedtoavoidtheextremesandchoosethemeanforthisasthemessengerreportedtheinterpretertohavesaidisthetruehappinessofmanandanyoneasheproclaimedmayifhechoosewithunderstandinghaveagoodloteventhoughhecomelastletnotthefirstbecarelessinhischoicenorthelastdespairhespokeandwhenhehadspokenhewhohaddrawnthefirstlotchoseatyrannyhedidnotseethathewasfatedtodevourhisownchildrenandwhenhediscoveredhismistakeheweptandbeathisbreastblamingchanceandthegodsandanybodyratherthanhimselfhewasoneofthosewhohadcomefromheavenandinhispreviouslifehadbeenacitizenofawellorderedstatebuthehadonlyhabitandnophilosophylikemanyanotherhemadeabadchoicebecausehehadnoexperienceoflifewhereasthosewhocamefromearthandhadseentroublewerenotinsuchahurrytochoosebutifamanhadfollowedphilosophywhileuponearthandhadbeenmoderatelyfortunateinhislothemightnotonlybehappyherebuthispilgrimagebothfromandtothisworldwouldbesmoothandheavenlynothingwasmorecuriousthanthespectacleofthechoiceatoncesadandlaughableandwonderfulmostofthesoulsonlyseekingtoavoidtheirownconditioninapreviouslifehesawthesouloforpheuschangingintoaswanbecausehewouldnotbebornofawomantherewasthamyrasbecominganightingalemusicalbirdsliketheswanchoosingtobementhetwentiethsoulwhichwasthatofajaxpreferringthelifeofaliontothatofamaninremembranceoftheinjusticewhichwasdonetohiminthejudgmentofthearmsandagamemnonfromalikeenmitytohumannaturepassingintoaneagleaboutthemiddlewasthesoulofatalantachoosingthehonoursofanathleteandnexttoherepeustakingthenatureofaworkwomanamongthelastwasthersiteswhowaschanginghimselfintoamonkeythitherthelastofallcameodysseusandsoughtthelotofaprivatemanwhichlayneglectedanddespisedandwhenhefoundithewentawayrejoicingandsaidthatifhehadbeenfirstinsteadoflasthischoicewouldhavebeenthesamementoowereseenpassingintoanimalsandwildandtameanimalschangingintooneanotherwhenallthesoulshadchosentheywenttolachesiswhosentwitheachofthemtheirgeniusorattendanttofulfiltheirlothefirstofallbroughtthemunderthehandofclothoanddrewthemwithintherevolutionofthespindleimpelledbyherhandfromhertheywerecarriedtoatroposwhomadethethreadsirreversiblewhencewithoutturningroundtheypassedbeneaththethroneofnecessityandwhentheyhadallpassedtheymovedoninscorchingheattotheplainofforgetfulnessandrestedateveningbytheriverunmindfulwhosewatercouldnotberetainedinanyvesselofthistheyhadalltodrinkacertainquantitysomeofthemdrankmorethanwasrequiredandhewhodrankforgotallthingserhimselfwaspreventedfromdrinkingwhentheyhadgonetorestaboutthemiddleofthenighttherewerethunderstormsandearthquakesandsuddenlytheywerealldrivendiverswaysshootinglikestarstotheirbirthconcerninghisreturntothebodyheonlyknewthatawakingsuddenlyinthemorninghefoundhimselflyingonthepyrethusglauconthetalehasbeensavedandwillbeoursalvationifwebelievethatthesoulisimmortalandholdfasttotheheavenlywayofjusticeandknowledgesoshallwepassundefiledovertheriverofforgetfulnessandbedeartoourselvesandtothegodsandhaveacrownofrewardandhappinessbothinthisworldandalsointhemillennialpilgrimageoftheotherthetenthbookoftherepublicofplatofallsintotwodivisionsfirstresuminganoldthreadwhichhasbeeninterruptedsocratesassailsthepoetswhonowthatthenatureofthesoulhasbeenanalyzedareseentobeveryfargonefromthetruthandsecondlyhavingshowntherealityofthehappinessofthejusthedemandsthatappearanceshallberestoredtohimandthenproceedstoprovetheimmortalityofthesoultheargumentasinthephaedoandgorgiasissupplementedbythevisionofafuturelifewhyplatowhowashimselfapoetandwhosedialoguesarepoemsanddramasshouldhavebeenhostiletothepoetsasaclassandespeciallytothedramaticpoetswhyheshouldnothaveseenthattruthmaybeembodiedinverseaswellasinproseandthattherearesomeindefinablelightsandshadowsofhumanlifewhichcanonlybeexpressedinpoetrysomeelementsofimaginationwhichalwaysentwinewithreasonwhyheshouldhavesupposedepicversetobeinseparablyassociatedwiththeimpuritiesoftheoldhellenicmythologywhyheshouldtryhomerandhesiodbytheunfairandprosaictestofutilityarequestionswhichhavealwaysbeendebatedamongststudentsofplatothoughunabletogiveacompleteanswertothemwemayshowfirstthathisviewsarosenaturallyoutofthecircumstancesofhisageandsecondlywemayelicitthetruthaswellastheerrorwhichiscontainedinthemheistheenemyofthepoetsbecausepoetrywasdeclininginhisownlifetimeandatheatrocracyashesaysinthelawshadtakentheplaceofanintellectualaristocracyeuripidesexhibitedthelastphaseofthetragicdramaandinhimplatosawthefriendandapologistoftyrantsandthesophistoftragedytheoldcomedywasalmostextinctthenewhadnotyetarisendramaticandlyricpoetrylikeeveryotherbranchofgreekliteraturewasfallingunderthepowerofrhetorictherewasnosecondorthirdtoaeschylusandsophoclesinthegenerationwhichfollowedthemaristophanesinoneofhislatercomediesfrogsspeaksofthousandsoftragedymakingprattlerswhoseattemptsatpoetryhecomparestothechirpingofswallowstheirgarrulitywentfarbeyondeuripidestheyappearedonceuponthestageandtherewasanendofthemtoamanofgeniuswhohadarealappreciationofthegodlikeaeschylusandthenobleandgentlesophoclesthoughdisagreeingwithsomepartsoftheirtheologyreptheseminorpoetsmusthavebeencontemptibleandintolerablethereisnofeelingstrongerinthedialoguesofplatothanasenseofthedeclineanddecaybothinliteratureandinpoliticswhichmarkedhisownagenorcanhehavebeenexpectedtolookwithfavouronthelicenceofaristophanesnowattheendofhiscareerwhohadbegunbysatirizingsocratesinthecloudsandinasimilarspiritfortyyearsafterwardshadsatirizedthefoundersofidealcommonwealthsinhiseccleziazusaeorfemaleparliamentlawstherewereotherreasonsfortheantagonismofplatotopoetrytheprofessionofanactorwasregardedbyhimasadegradationofhumannatureforonemaninhislifecannotplaymanypartsthecharacterswhichtheactorperformsseemtodestroyhisowncharacterandtoleavenothingwhichcanbetrulycalledhimselfneithercananymanlivehislifeandactittheactoristheslaveofhisartnotthemasterofittakingthisviewplatoismoredecidedinhisexpulsionofthedramaticthanoftheepicpoetsthoughhemusthaveknownthatthegreektragediansaffordednoblelessonsandexamplesofvirtueandpatriotismtowhichnothinginhomercanbecomparedbutgreatdramaticorevengreatrhetoricalpowerishardlyconsistentwithfirmnessorstrengthofmindanddramatictalentisoftenincidentallyassociatedwithaweakordissolutecharacterinthetenthbookplatointroducesanewseriesofobjectionsfirsthesaysthatthepoetorpainterisanimitatorandinthethirddegreeremovedfromthetruthhiscreationsarenottestedbyruleandmeasuretheyareonlyappearancesinmoderntimesweshouldsaythatartisnotmerelyimitationbutrathertheexpressionoftheidealinformsofsenseevenadoptingthehumbleimageofplatofromwhichhisargumentderivesacolourweshouldmaintainthattheartistmayennoblethebedwhichhepaintsbythefoldsofthedraperyorbythefeelingofhomewhichheintroducesandtherehavebeenmodernpainterswhohaveimpartedsuchanidealinteresttoablacksmithsoracarpentersshoptheeyeormindwhichfeelsaswellasseescangivedignityandpathostoaruinedmillorastrawbuiltshedrembrandttothehullofavesselgoingtoitslasthometurnerstillmorewouldthisapplytothegreatestworksofartwhichseemtobethevisibleembodimentofthedivinehadplatobeenaskedwhetherthezeusoratheneofpheidiaswastheimitationofanimitationonlywouldhenothavebeencompelledtoadmitthatsomethingmorewastobefoundinthemthanintheformofanymortalandthattheruleofproportiontowhichtheyconformedwashigherfarthananygeometryorarithmeticcouldexpressstatesmanagainplatoobjectstotheimitativeartsthattheyexpresstheemotionalratherthantherationalpartofhumannaturehedoesnotadmitaristotlestheorythattragedyorotherseriousimitationsareapurgationofthepassionsbypityandfeartohimtheyappearonlytoaffordtheopportunityofindulgingthemyetwemustacknowledgethatwemaysometimescuredisorderedemotionsbygivingexpressiontothemandthattheyoftengainstrengthwhenpentupwithinourownbreastitisnoteveryindulgenceofthefeelingswhichistobecondemnedfortheremaybeagratificationofthehigheraswellasofthelowerthoughtswhicharetoodeeportoosadtobeexpressedbyourselvesmayfindanutteranceinthewordsofpoetseveryonewouldacknowledgethattherehavebeentimeswhentheywereconsoledandelevatedbybeautifulmusicorbythesublimityofarchitectureorbythepeacefulnessofnatureplatohashimselfadmittedintheearlierpartoftherepublicthattheartsmighthavetheeffectofharmonizingaswellasofenervatingthemindbutinthetenthbookheregardsthemthroughastoicorpuritanmediumheasksonlywhatgoodhavetheydoneandisnotsatisfiedwiththereplythattheyhavegiveninnocentpleasuretomankindhetellsusthatherejoicesinthebanishmentofthepoetssincehehasfoundbytheanalysisofthesoulthattheyareconcernedwiththeinferiorfacultieshemeanstosaythatthehigherfacultieshavetodowithuniversalsthelowerwithparticularsofsensethepoetsareonalevelwiththeirownagebutnotonalevelwithsocratesandplatoandhewaswellawarethathomerandhesiodcouldnotbemadearuleoflifebyanyprocessoflegitimateinterpretationhisironicaluseofthemisinfactadenialoftheirauthorityhesawtoothatthepoetswerenotcriticsashesaysintheapologyanyonewasabetterinterpreteroftheirwritingsthantheywerethemselveshehimselfceasedtobeapoetwhenhebecameadiscipleofsocratesthoughashetellsusofsolonhemighthavebeenoneofthegreatestofthemifhehadnotbeendeterredbyotherpursuitstimthusfrommanypointsofviewthereisanantagonismbetweenplatoandthepoetswhichwasforeshadowedtohimintheoldquarrelbetweenphilosophyandpoetrythepoetsashesaysintheprotagoraswerethesophistsoftheirdayandhisdislikeoftheoneclassisreflectedontheotherheregardsthembothastheenemiesofreasoningandabstractionthoughinthecaseofeuripidesmorewithreferencetohisimmoralsentimentsabouttyrantsandthelikeforplatoistheprophetwhocameintotheworldtoconvincemenfirstofthefallibilityofsenseandopinionandsecondlyoftherealityofabstractideaswhateverstrangenesstheremaybeinmoderntimesinopposingphilosophytopoetrywhichtousseemtohavesomanyelementsincommonthestrangenesswilldisappearifweconceiveofpoetryasalliedtosenseandofphilosophyasequivalenttothoughtandabstractionunfortunatelytheverywordideawhichtoplatoisexpressiveofthemostrealofallthingsisassociatedinourmindswithanelementofsubjectivenessandunrealitywemaynotealsohowhediffersfromaristotlewhodeclarespoetrytobetruerthanhistoryfortheoppositereasonbecauseitisconcernedwithuniversalsnotlikehistorywithparticularspoetthethingswhichareseenareopposedinscripturetothethingswhichareunseentheyareequallyopposedinplatotouniversalsandideastohimallparticularsappeartobefloatingaboutinaworldofsensetheyhaveataintoferrororevenofevilthereisnodifficultyinseeingthatthisisanillusionforthereisnomoreerrororvariationinanindividualmanhorsebedetcthanintheclassmanhorsebedetcnoristhetruthwhichisdisplayedinindividualinstanceslesscertainthanthatwhichisconveyedthroughthemediumofideasbutplatowhoisdeeplyimpressedwiththerealimportanceofuniversalsasinstrumentsofthoughtattributestothemanessentialtruthwhichisimaginaryandunrealforuniversalsmaybeoftenfalseandparticularstruehadheattainedtoanyclearconceptionoftheindividualwhichisthesynthesisoftheuniversalandtheparticularorhadhebeenabletodistinguishbetweenopinionandsensationwhichtheambiguityofthewordsgreekandtheliketendedtoconfusehewouldnothavedeniedtruthtotheparticularsofsensebutthepoetsarealsotherepresentativesoffalsehoodandfeigninginalldepartmentsoflifeandknowledgelikethesophistsandrhetoriciansofthegorgiasandphaedrustheyarethefalsepriestsfalseprophetslyingspiritsenchantersoftheworldthereisanothercountputintotheindictmentagainstthembyplatothattheyarethefriendsofthetyrantandbaskinthesunshineofhispatronagedespotisminallageshashadanapparatusoffalseideasandfalseteachersatitsserviceinthehistoryofmoderneuropeaswellasofgreeceandromefornogovernmentofmendependssolelyuponforcewithoutsomecorruptionofliteratureandmoralssomeappealtotheimaginationofthemassessomepretencetothefavourofheavensomeelementofgoodgivingpowertoeviltyrannyevenforashorttimecannotbemaintainedthegreektyrantswerenotinsensibletotheimportanceofawakeningintheircauseapseudohellenicfeelingtheywereproudofsuccessesattheolympicgamestheywerenotdevoidoftheloveofliteratureandartplatoisthinkinginthefirstinstanceofgreekpoetswhohadgracedthecourtsofdionysiusorarchelausandtheoldspiritoffreedomisrousedwithinhimattheirprostitutionofthetragicmuseinthepraisesoftyrannybuthispropheticeyeextendsbeyondthemtothefalseteachersofotherageswhoarethecreaturesofthegovernmentunderwhichtheylivehecomparesthecorruptionofhiscontemporarieswiththeideaofaperfectsocietyandgathersupintoonemassofeviltheevilsanderrorsofmankindtohimtheyarepersonifiedintherhetoricianssophistspoetsrulerswhodeceiveandgoverntheworldafurtherobjectionwhichplatomakestopoetryandtheimitativeartsisthattheyexcitetheemotionsherethemodernreaderwillbedisposedtointroduceadistinctionwhichappearstohaveescapedhimfortheemotionsareneitherbadnorgoodinthemselvesandarenotmostlikelytobecontrolledbytheattempttoeradicatethembutbythemoderateindulgenceofthemandthevocationofartistopresentthoughtintheformoffeelingtoenlistthefeelingsonthesideofreasontoinspireevenforamomentcourageorresignationperhapstosuggestasenseofinfinityandeternityinawaywhichmerelanguageisincapableofattainingtruethesamepowerwhichinthepurerageofartembodiesgodsandheroesonlymaybemadetoexpressthevoluptuousimageofacorinthiancourtezanbutthisonlyshowsthatartlikeotheroutwardthingsmaybeturnedtogoodandalsotoevilandisnotmorecloselyconnectedwiththehigherthanwiththelowerpartofthesoulallimitativeartissubjecttocertainlimitationsandthereforenecessarilypartakesofthenatureofacompromisesomethingofidealtruthissacrificedforthesakeoftherepresentationandsomethingintheexactnessoftherepresentationissacrificedtotheidealstillworksofarthaveapermanentelementtheyidealizeanddetainthepassingthoughtandaretheintermediatesbetweensenseandideasinthepresentstageofthehumanmindpoetryandotherformsoffictionmaycertainlyberegardedasagoodbutwecanalsoimaginetheexistenceofanageinwhichasevererconceptionoftruthhaseitherbanishedortransformedthematanyratewemustadmitthattheyholdadifferentplaceatdifferentperiodsoftheworldshistoryintheinfancyofmankindpoetrywiththeexceptionofproverbsisthewholeofliteratureandtheonlyinstrumentofintellectualcultureinmoderntimessheistheshadoworechoofherformerselfandappearstohaveaprecariousexistencemiltoninhisdaydoubtedwhetheranepicpoemwasanylongerpossibleatthesametimewemustrememberthatwhatplatowouldhavecalledthecharmsofpoetryhavebeenpartlytransferredtoprosehehimselfstatesmanadmitsrhetorictobethehandmaidenofpoliticsandproposestofindinthestrainoflawlawsasubstitutefortheoldpoetsamongourselvesthecreativepowerseemsoftentobegrowingweakerandscientificfacttobemoreengrossingandoverpoweringtothemindthanformerlytheillusionofthefeelingscommonlycalledlovehashithertobeentheinspiringinfluenceofmodernpoetryandromanceandhasexercisedahumanizingifnotastrengtheninginfluenceontheworldbutmaynotthestimuluswhichlovehasgiventofancybesomedayexhaustedthemodernenglishnovelwhichisthemostpopularofallformsofreadingisnotmorethanacenturyortwooldwillthetaleofloveahundredyearshenceaftersomanythousandvariationsofthesamethemebestillreceivedwithunabatedinterestartcannotclaimtobeonalevelwithphilosophyorreligionandmayoftencorruptthemitispossibletoconceiveamentalstateinwhichallartisticrepresentationsareregardedasafalseandimperfectexpressioneitherofthereligiousidealorofthephilosophicalidealthefairestformsmayberevoltingincertainmoodsofmindasisprovedbythefactthatthemahometansandmanysectsofchristianshaverenouncedtheuseofpicturesandimagesthebeginningofagreatreligionwhetherchristianorgentilehasnotbeenwoodorstonebutaspiritmovingintheheartsofmenthediscipleshavemetinalargeupperroomorinholesandcavesoftheearthinthesecondorthirdgenerationtheyhavehadmosquestempleschurchesmonasteriesandtherevivalorreformofreligionslikethefirstrevelationofthemhascomefromwithinandhasgenerallydisregardedexternalceremoniesandaccompanimentsbutpoetryandartmayalsobetheexpressionofthehighesttruthandthepurestsentimentplatohimselfseemstowaverbetweentwooppositeviewswhenasinthethirdbookheinsiststhatyouthshouldbebroughtupamidwholesomeimageryandagaininbookxwhenhebanishesthepoetsfromhisrepublicadmittingthattheartswhichsomeofusalmostdeifyhavefallenshortoftheirhigheraimwemustadmitontheotherhandthattobanishimaginationwhollywouldbesuicidalaswellasimpossiblefornaturetooisaformofartandabreathofthefreshairorasingleglanceatthevaryinglandscapewouldinaninstantreviveandreilluminetheextinguishedsparkofpoetryinthehumanbreastinthelowerstagesofcivilizationimaginationmorethanreasondistinguishesmanfromtheanimalsandtobanishartwouldbetobanishthoughttobanishlanguagetobanishtheexpressionofalltruthnoreligioniswhollydevoidofexternalformseventhemahometanwhorenouncestheuseofpicturesandimageshasatempleinwhichheworshipsthemosthighassolemnandbeautifulasanygreekorchristianbuildingfeelingtooandthoughtarenotreallyopposedforhewhothinksmustfeelbeforehecanexecuteandthehighestthoughtswhentheybecomefamiliarizedtousarealwaystendingtopassintotheformoffeelingplatodoesnotseriouslyintendtoexpelpoetsfromlifeandsocietybuthefeelsstronglytheunrealityoftheirwritingsheisprotestingagainstthedegeneracyofpoetryinhisowndayaswemightprotestagainstthewantofseriouspurposeinmodernfictionagainsttheunseemlinessorextravaganceofsomeofourpoetsornovelistsagainstthetimeservingofpreachersorpublicwritersagainsttheregardlessnessoftruthwhichtotheeyeofthephilosopherseemstocharacterizethegreaterpartoftheworldforwetoohavereasontocomplainthatourpoetsandnovelistspaintinferiortruthandareconcernedwiththeinferiorpartofthesoulthatthereadersofthembecomewhattheyreadandareinjuriouslyaffectedbythemandwelookinvainforthathealthyatmosphereofwhichplatospeaksthebeautywhichmeetsthesenselikeabreezeandimperceptiblydrawsthesouleveninchildhoodintoharmonywiththebeautyofreasonfortheremightbeapoetrywhichwouldbethehymnofdivineperfectiontheharmonyofgoodnessandtruthamongmenastrainwhichshouldrenewtheyouthoftheworldandbringbacktheagesinwhichthepoetwasmansonlyteacherandbestfriendwhichwouldfindmaterialsinthelivingpresentaswellasintheromanceofthepastandmightsubduetothefairestformsofspeechandversetheintractablematerialsofmoderncivilisationwhichmightelicitthesimpleprinciplesorasplatowouldhavecalledthemtheessentialformsoftruthandjusticeoutofthevarietyofopinionandthecomplexityofmodernsocietywhichwouldpreserveallthegoodofeachgenerationandleavethebadunsungwhichshouldbebasednotonvainlongingsorfaintimaginingsbutonaclearinsightintothenatureofmanthenthetaleoflovemightbeginagaininpoetryorprosetwoinoneunitedinthepursuitofknowledgeortheserviceofgodandmanandfeelingsoflovemightstillbetheincentivetogreatthoughtsandheroicdeedsasinthedaysofdanteorpetrarchandmanytypesofmanlyandwomanlybeautymightappearamongusrisingabovetheordinarylevelofhumanityandmanyliveswhichwerelikepoemslawsbenotonlywrittenbutlivedbyusafewsuchstrainshavebeenheardamongmeninthetragediesofaeschylusandsophocleswhomplatoquotesnotashomerisquotedbyhiminironybutwithdeepandseriousapprovalinthepoetryofmiltonandwordsworthandinpassagesofotherenglishpoetsfirstandaboveallinthehebrewprophetsandpsalmistsshakespearehastaughtushowgreatmenshouldspeakandacthehasdrawncharactersofawonderfulpurityanddepthhehasennobledthehumanmindbutlikehomerrephehasleftnowayoflifethenextgreatestpoetofmoderntimesgoetheisconcernedwithalowerdegreeoftruthhepaintstheworldasastageonwhichallthemenandwomenaremerelyplayershecultivateslifeasanartbuthefurnishesnoidealsoftruthandactionthepoetmayrebelagainstanyattempttosetlimitstohisfancyandhemayarguetrulythatmoralizinginverseisnotpoetrypossiblylikemephistophelesinfausthemayretaliateonhisadversariesbutthephilosopherwillstillbejustifiedinaskinghowmaytheheavenlygiftofpoesybedevotedtothegoodofmankindreturningtoplatowemayobservethatasimilarmixtureoftruthanderrorappearsinotherpartsoftheargumentheisawareoftheabsurdityofmankindframingtheirwholelivesaccordingtohomerjustasinthephaedrusheintimatestheabsurdityofinterpretingmythologyuponrationalprinciplesboththesewerethemoderntendenciesofhisownagewhichhedeservedlyridiculesontheotherhandhisargumentthathomerifhehadbeenabletoteachmankindanythingworthknowingwouldnothavebeenallowedbythemtogoaboutbeggingasarhapsodistisbothfalseandcontrarytothespiritofplatorepitmaybecomparedwiththoseotherparadoxesofthegorgiasthatnostatesmanwaseverunjustlyputtodeathbythecityofwhichhewastheheadandthatnosophistwaseverdefraudedbyhispupilsgorgtheargumentforimmortalityseemstorestontheabsolutedualismofsoulandbodyadmittingtheexistenceofthesoulweknowofnoforcewhichisabletoputanendtoherviceisherownproperevilandifshecannotbedestroyedbythatshecannotbedestroyedbyanyotheryetplatohasacknowledgedthatthesoulmaybesoovergrownbytheincrustationsofearthastoloseheroriginalformandinthetimaeusherecognizesmorestronglythanintherepublictheinfluencewhichthebodyhasovertheminddenyingeventhevoluntarinessofhumanactionsonthegroundthattheyproceedfromphysicalstatestimintherepublicaselsewherehewaversbetweentheoriginalsoulwhichhastoberestoredandthecharacterwhichisdevelopedbytrainingandeducationthevisionofanotherworldisascribedtoerthesonofarmeniuswhoissaidbyclementofalexandriatohavebeenzoroasterthetalehascertainlyanorientalcharacterandmaybecomparedwiththepilgrimagesofthesoulinthezendavestahaugavestabutnotraceofacquaintancewithzoroasterisfoundelsewhereinplatoswritingsandthereisnoreasonforgivinghimthenameoferthepamphylianthephilosophyofheracleituscannotbeshowntobeborrowedfromzoroasterandstilllessthemythsofplatothelocalarrangementofthevisionislessdistinctthanthatofthephaedrusandphaedoastronomyismingledwithsymbolismandmythologythegreatsphereofheavenisrepresentedunderthesymbolofacylinderorboxcontainingthesevenorbitsoftheplanetsandthefixedstarsthisissuspendedfromanaxisorspindlewhichturnsonthekneesofnecessitytherevolutionsofthesevenorbitscontainedinthecylinderareguidedbythefatesandtheirharmoniousmotionproducesthemusicofthespheresthroughtheinnermostoreighthofthesewhichisthemoonispassedthespindlebutitisdoubtfulwhetherthisisthecontinuationofthecolumnoflightfromwhichthepilgrimscontemplatetheheavensthewordsofplatoimplythattheyareconnectedbutnotthesamethecolumnitselfisclearlynotofadamantthespindlewhichisofadamantisfastenedtotheendsofthechainswhichextendtothemiddleofthecolumnoflightthiscolumnissaidtoholdtogethertheheavenbutwhetherithangsfromthespindleorisatrightanglestoitisnotexplainedthecylindercontainingtheorbitsofthestarsisalmostasmuchasymbolasthefigureofnecessityturningthespindlefortheoutermostrimisthesphereofthefixedstarsandnothingissaidabouttheintervalsofspacewhichdividethepathsofthestarsintheheavensthedescriptionisbothapictureandanorreryandthereforeisnecessarilyinconsistentwithitselfthecolumnoflightisnotthemilkywaywhichisneitherstraightnorlikearainbowbuttheimaginaryaxisoftheearththisiscomparedtotherainbowinrespectnotofformbutofcolourandnottotheundergirdersofatriremebuttothestraightroperunningfromprowtosterninwhichtheundergirdersmeettheorreryorpictureoftheheavensgivenintherepublicdiffersinitsmodeofrepresentationfromthecirclesofthesameandoftheotherinthetimaeusinboththefixedstarsaredistinguishedfromtheplanetsandtheymoveinorbitswithoutthemalthoughinanoppositedirectionintherepublicasinthetimaeustheyareallmovingroundtheaxisoftheworldbutwearenotcertainthatintheformertheyaremovingroundtheearthnodistinctmentionismadeintherepublicofthecirclesofthesameandotheralthoughbothinthetimaeusandintherepublicthemotionofthefixedstarsissupposedtocoincidewiththemotionofthewholetherelativethicknessoftherimsisperhapsdesignedtoexpresstherelativedistancesoftheplanetsplatoprobablyintendedtorepresenttheearthfromwhicherandhiscompanionsareviewingtheheavensasstationaryinplacebutwhetherornotherselfrevolvingunlessthisisimpliedintherevolutionoftheaxisisuncertaintimaeusthespectatormaybesupposedtolookattheheavenlybodieseitherfromaboveorbelowtheearthisasortofearthandheaveninoneliketheheavenofthephaedrusonthebackofwhichthespectatorgoesouttotakeapeepatthestarsandisborneroundintherevolutionthereisnodistinctionbetweentheequatorandtheeclipticbutplatoisnodoubtledtoimaginethattheplanetshaveanoppositemotiontothatofthefixedstarsinordertoaccountfortheirappearancesintheheavensinthedescriptionofthemeadowandtheretributionofthegoodandevilafterdeaththerearetracesofhomerthedescriptionoftheaxisasaspindleandoftheheavenlybodiesasformingawholepartlyarisesoutoftheattempttoconnectthemotionsoftheheavenlybodieswiththemythologicalimageoftheweborweavingofthefatesthegivingofthelotstheweavingofthemandthemakingofthemirreversiblewhichareascribedtothethreefateslachesisclothoatroposareobviouslyderivedfromtheirnamestheelementofchanceinhumanlifeisindicatedbytheorderofthelotsbutchancehoweveradversemaybeovercomebythewisdomofmanifheknowshowtochoosearightthereisaworseenemytomanthanchancethisenemyishimselfhewhowasmoderatelyfortunateinthenumberoftheloteventheverylastcomermighthaveagoodlifeifhechosewithwisdomandasplatodoesnotliketomakeanassertionwhichisunprovenhemorethanconfirmsthisstatementafewsentencesafterwardsbytheexampleofodysseuswhochoselastbutthevirtuewhichisfoundedonhabitisnotsufficienttoenableamantochoosehemustaddtovirtueknowledgeifheistoactrightlywhenplacedinnewcircumstancestheroutineofgoodactionsandgoodhabitsisaninferiorsortofgoodnessandascoleridgesayscommonsenseisintolerablewhichisnotbasedonmetaphysicssoplatowouldhavesaidhabitisworthlesswhichisnotbaseduponphilosophythefreedomofthewilltorefusetheevilandtochoosethegoodisdistinctlyassertedvirtueisfreeandasamanhonoursordishonoursherhewillhavemoreorlessofherthelifeofmanisroundedbynecessitytherearecircumstancespriortobirthwhichaffecthimpolbutwithinthewallsofnecessitythereisanopenspaceinwhichheishisownmasterandcanstudyforhimselftheeffectswhichthevariouslycompoundedgiftsofnatureorfortunehaveuponthesoulandactaccordinglyallmencannothavethefirstchoiceineverythingbutthelotofallmenisgoodenoughiftheychoosewiselyandwilllivediligentlytheverisimilitudewhichisgiventothepilgrimageofathousandyearsbytheintimationthatardiaeushadlivedathousandyearsbeforethecoincidenceofercomingtolifeonthetwelfthdayafterhewassupposedtohavebeendeadwiththesevendayswhichthepilgrimspassedinthemeadowandthefourdaysduringwhichtheyjourneyedtothecolumnoflighttheprecisionwithwhichthesoulismentionedwhochosethetwentiethlotthepassingremarksthattherewasnodefinitecharacteramongthesoulsandthatthesoulswhichhadchosenillblamedanyoneratherthanthemselvesorthatsomeofthesoulsdrankmorethanwasnecessaryofthewatersofforgetfulnesswhileerhimselfwashinderedfromdrinkingthedesireofodysseustorestatlastunliketheconceptionofhimindanteandtennysonthefeignedignoranceofhowerreturnedtothebodywhentheothersoulswentshootinglikestarstotheirbirthaddgreatlytotheprobabilityofthenarrativetheyaresuchtouchesofnatureastheartofdefoemighthaveintroducedwhenhewishedtowincredibilityformarvelsandapparitionstherestillremaintobeconsideredsomepointswhichhavebeenintentionallyreservedtotheendthejanuslikecharacteroftherepublicwhichpresentstwofacesoneanhellenicstatetheotherakingdomofphilosophersconnectedwiththelatterofthetwoaspectsaretheparadoxesoftherepublicastheyhavebeentermedbymorgensternathecommunityofpropertyboffamiliesctheruleofphilosophersdtheanalogyoftheindividualandthestatewhichlikesomeotheranalogiesintherepubliciscarriedtoofarwemaythenproceedtoconsiderthesubjectofeducationasconceivedbyplatobringingtogetherinageneralviewtheeducationofyouthandtheeducationofafterlifewemaynotefurthersomeessentialdifferencesbetweenancientandmodernpoliticswhicharesuggestedbytherepublicwemaycomparethepoliticusandthelawswemayobservetheinfluenceexercisedbyplatoonhisimitatorsandtakeoccasiontoconsiderthenatureandvalueofpoliticalandofreligiousidealsplatoexpresslysaysthatheisintendingtofoundanhellenicstatebookvmanyofhisregulationsarecharacteristicallyspartansuchastheprohibitionofgoldandsilverthecommonmealsofthementhemilitarytrainingoftheyouththegymnasticexercisesofthewomenthelifeofspartawasthelifeofacamplawsenforcedevenmorerigidlyintimeofpeacethaninwarthecitizensofspartalikeplatoswereforbiddentotradetheyweretobesoldiersandnotshopkeepersnowhereelseingreecewastheindividualsocompletelysubjectedtothestatethetimewhenhewastomarrytheeducationofhischildrentheclotheswhichhewastowearthefoodwhichhewastoeatwereallprescribedbylawsomeofthebestenactmentsintherepublicsuchasthereverencetobepaidtoparentsandeldersandsomeoftheworstsuchastheexposureofdeformedchildrenareborrowedfromthepracticeofspartatheencouragementoffriendshipsbetweenmenandyouthsorofmenwithoneanotherasaffordingincentivestobraveryisalsospartaninspartatooanearerapproachwasmadethaninanyothergreekstatetoequalityofthesexesandtocommunityofpropertyandwhiletherewasprobablylessoflicentiousnessinthesenseofimmoralitythetieofmarriagewasregardedmorelightlythanintherestofgreecethesupremalexwasthepreservationofthefamilyandtheinterestofthestatethecoarsestrengthofamilitarygovernmentwasnotfavourabletopurityandrefinementandtheexcessivestrictnessofsomeregulationsseemstohaveproducedareactionofallhellenesthespartansweremostaccessibletobriberyseveralofthegreatestofthemmightbedescribedinthewordsofplatoashavingafiercesecretlongingaftergoldandsilverthoughnotinthestrictsensecommuniststheprincipleofcommunismwasmaintainedamongthemintheirdivisionoflandsintheircommonmealsintheirslavesandinthefreeuseofoneanothersgoodsmarriagewasapublicinstitutionandthewomenwereeducatedbythestateandsanganddancedinpublicwiththemenmanytraditionswerepreservedatspartaoftheseveritywithwhichthemagistrateshadmaintainedtheprimitiveruleofmusicandpoetryasintherepublicofplatothenewfangledpoetwastobeexpelledhymnstothegodswhicharetheonlykindofmusicadmittedintotheidealstateweretheonlykindwhichwaspermittedatspartathespartansthoughanunpoeticalracewereneverthelessloversofpoetrytheyhadbeenstirredbytheelegiacstrainsoftyrtaeustheyhadcrowdedaroundhippiastohearhisrecitalsofhomerbutinthistheyresembledthecitizensofthetimocraticratherthanoftheidealstatethecouncilofeldermenalsocorrespondstothespartangerousiaandthefreedomwithwhichtheyarepermittedtojudgeaboutmattersofdetailagreeswithwhatwearetoldofthatinstitutiononcemorethemilitaryruleofnotspoilingthedeadorofferingarmsatthetemplesthemoderationinthepursuitofenemiestheimportanceattachedtothephysicalwellbeingofthecitizenstheuseofwarfareforthesakeofdefenceratherthanofaggressionarefeaturesprobablysuggestedbythespiritandpracticeofspartatothespartantypetheidealstaterevertsinthefirstdeclineandthecharacteroftheindividualtimocratisborrowedfromthespartancitizentheloveoflacedaemonnotonlyaffectedplatoandxenophonbutwassharedbymanyundistinguishedathenianstheretheyseemedtofindaprinciplewhichwaswantingintheirowndemocracythegreekofthespartansattractedthemthatistosaynotthegoodnessoftheirlawsbutthespiritoforderandloyaltywhichprevailedfascinatedbytheideacitizensofathenswouldimitatethelacedaemoniansintheirdressandmannerstheywereknowntothecontemporariesofplatoasthepersonswhohadtheirearsbruisedliketheroundheadsofthecommonwealththeloveofanotherchurchorcountrywhenseenatadistanceonlythelongingforanimaginarysimplicityincivilizedtimesthefonddesireofapastwhichneverhasbeenorofafuturewhichneverwillbetheseareaspirationsofthehumanmindwhichareoftenfeltamongourselvessuchfeelingsmeetwitharesponseintherepublicofplatobutthereareotherfeaturesoftheplatonicrepublicasforexampletheliteraryandphilosophicaleducationandthegraceandbeautyoflifewhicharethereverseofspartanplatowishestogivehiscitizensatasteofathenianfreedomaswellasoflacedaemoniandisciplinehisindividualgeniusispurelyathenianalthoughintheoryheisaloverofspartaandheissomethingmorethaneitherhehasalsoatruehellenicfeelingheisdesirousofhumanizingthewarsofhellenesagainstoneanotherheacknowledgesthatthedelphiangodisthegrandhereditaryinterpreterofallhellasthespiritofharmonyandthedorianmodearetoprevailandthewholestateistohaveanexternalbeautywhichisthereflexoftheharmonywithinbuthehasnotyetfoundoutthetruthwhichheafterwardsenunciatedinthelawsthathewasabetterlegislatorwhomadementobeofonemindthanhewhotrainedthemforwarthecitizensasinotherhellenicstatesdemocraticaswellasaristocraticarereallyanupperclassforalthoughnomentionismadeofslavesthelowerclassesareallowedtofadeawayintothedistanceandarerepresentedintheindividualbythepassionsplatohasnoideaeitherofasocialstateinwhichallclassesareharmonizedorofafederationofhellasortheworldinwhichdifferentnationsorstateshaveaplacehiscityisequippedforwarratherthanforpeaceandthiswouldseemtobejustifiedbytheordinaryconditionofhellenicstatesthemythoftheearthbornmenisanembodimentoftheorthodoxtraditionofhellasandtheallusiontothefouragesoftheworldisalsosanctionedbytheauthorityofhesiodandthepoetsthusweseethattherepublicispartlyfoundedontheidealoftheoldgreekpolispartlyontheactualcircumstancesofhellasinthatageplatoliketheoldpaintersretainsthetraditionalformandlikethemhehasalsoavisionofacityinthecloudsthereisyetanotherthreadwhichisinterwoveninthetextureoftheworkfortherepublicisnotonlyadorianstatebutapythagoreanleaguethewayoflifewhichwasconnectedwiththenameofpythagoraslikethecatholicmonasticordersshowedthepowerwhichthemindofanindividualmightexerciseoverhiscontemporariesandmayhavenaturallysuggestedtoplatothepossibilityofrevivingsuchmediaevalinstitutionsthepythagoreanslikeplatoenforcedaruleoflifeandamoralandintellectualtrainingtheinfluenceascribedtomusicwhichtousseemsexaggeratedisalsoapythagoreanfeatureitisnottoberegardedasrepresentingtherealinfluenceofmusicinthegreekworldmorenearlythananyothergovernmentofhellasthepythagoreanleagueofthreehundredwasanaristocracyofvirtueforonceinthehistoryofmankindthephilosophyoforderorgreekexpressingandconsequentlyenlistingonitssidethecombinedendeavoursofthebetterpartofthepeopleobtainedthemanagementofpublicaffairsandheldpossessionofitforaconsiderabletimeuntilaboutbcprobablyonlyinstatespreparedbydorianinstitutionswouldsuchaleaguehavebeenpossibletherulerslikeplatosgreekwererequiredtosubmittoaseveretraininginordertopreparethewayfortheeducationoftheothermembersofthecommunitylongafterthedissolutionoftheordereminentpythagoreanssuchasarchytasoftarentumretainedtheirpoliticalinfluenceoverthecitiesofmagnagraeciatherewasmuchherethatwassuggestivetothekindredspiritofplatowhohaddoubtlessmeditateddeeplyonthewayoflifeofpythagorasrepandhisfollowersslighttracesofpythagoreanismaretobefoundinthemysticalnumberofthestateinthenumberwhichexpressestheintervalbetweenthekingandthetyrantinthedoctrineoftransmigrationinthemusicofthespheresaswellasinthegreatthoughsecondaryimportanceascribedtomathematicsineducationbutasinhisphilosophysoalsointheformofhisstatehegoesfarbeyondtheoldpythagoreansheattemptsataskreallyimpossiblewhichistounitethepastofgreekhistorywiththefutureofphilosophyanalogoustothatotherimpossibilitywhichhasoftenbeenthedreamofchristendomtheattempttounitethepasthistoryofeuropewiththekingdomofchristnothingactuallyexistingintheworldatallresemblesplatosidealstatenordoeshehimselfimaginethatsuchastateispossiblethisherepeatsagainandagainegintherepublicorinthelawswherecastingaglancebackontherepublicheadmitsthattheperfectstateofcommunismandphilosophywasimpossibleinhisownagethoughstilltoberetainedasapatternthesamedoubtisimpliedintheearnestnesswithwhichhearguesintherepublicthatidealsarenonetheworsebecausetheycannotberealizedinfactandinthechorusoflaughterwhichlikeabreakingwavewillasheanticipatesgreetthementionofhisproposalsthoughlikeotherwritersoffictionheusesallhisarttogiverealitytohisinventionswhenaskedhowtheidealpolitycancomeintobeingheanswersironicallywhenonesonofakingbecomesaphilosopherhedesignatesthefictionoftheearthbornmenasanoblelieandwhenthestructureisfinallycompletehefairlytellsyouthathisrepublicisavisiononlywhichinsomesensemayhaverealitybutnotinthevulgaroneofareignofphilosophersuponearthithasbeensaidthatplatofliesaswellaswalksbutthisfallsshortofthetruthforhefliesandwalksatthesametimeandisintheairandonfirmgroundinsuccessiveinstantsniebuhrhasaskedatriflingquestionwhichmaybebrieflynoticedinthisplacewasplatoagoodcitizenifbythisismeantwasheloyaltoathenianinstitutionshecanhardlybesaidtobethefriendofdemocracybutneitherishethefriendofanyotherexistingformofgovernmentallofthemheregardedasstatesoffactionlawsnoneattainedtohisidealofavoluntaryruleovervoluntarysubjectswhichseemsindeedmorenearlytodescribedemocracythananyotherandtheworstofthemistyrannythetruthisthatthequestionhashardlyanymeaningwhenappliedtoagreatphilosopherwhosewritingsarenotmeantforaparticularageandcountrybutforalltimeandallmankindthedeclineofathenianpoliticswasprobablythemotivewhichledplatotoframeanidealstateandtherepublicmayberegardedasreflectingthedepartinggloryofhellasaswellmightwecomplainofstaugustinewhosegreatworkthecityofgodoriginatedinasimilarmotivefornotbeingloyaltotheromanempireevenanearerparallelmightbeaffordedbythefirstchristianswhocannotfairlybechargedwithbeingbadcitizensbecausethoughsubjecttothehigherpowerstheywerelookingforwardtoacitywhichisinheaventheideaoftheperfectstateisfullofparadoxwhenjudgedofaccordingtotheordinarynotionsofmankindtheparadoxesofoneagehavebeensaidtobecomethecommonplacesofthenextbuttheparadoxesofplatoareatleastasparadoxicaltousastheyweretohiscontemporariesthemodernworldhaseithersneeredatthemasabsurdordenouncedthemasunnaturalandimmoralmenhavebeenpleasedtofindinaristotlescriticismsofthemtheanticipationoftheirowngoodsensethewealthyandcultivatedclasseshavedislikedandalsodreadedthemtheyhavepointedwithsatisfactiontothefailureofeffortstorealizetheminpracticeyetsincetheyarethethoughtsofoneofthegreatestofhumanintelligencesandofonewhohaddonemosttoelevatemoralityandreligiontheyseemtodeserveabettertreatmentatourhandswemayhavetoaddressthepublicasplatodoespoetryandassurethemthatwemeannoharmtoexistinginstitutionsthereareseriouserrorswhichhaveasideoftruthandwhichthereforemayfairlydemandacarefulconsiderationtherearetruthsmixedwitherrorofwhichwemayindeedsaythehalfisbetterthanthewholeyetthehalfmaybeanimportantcontributiontothestudyofhumannatureathefirstparadoxisthecommunityofgoodswhichismentionedslightlyattheendofthethirdbookandseeminglyasaristotleobservesisconfinedtotheguardiansatleastnomentionismadeoftheotherclassesbuttheomissionisnotofanyrealsignificanceandprobablyarisesoutoftheplanoftheworkwhichpreventsthewriterfromenteringintodetailsaristotlecensuresthecommunityofpropertymuchinthespiritofmodernpoliticaleconomyastendingtorepressindustryandasdoingawaywiththespiritofbenevolencemodernwritersalmostrefusetoconsiderthesubjectwhichissupposedtohavebeenlongagosettledbythecommonopinionofmankindbutitmustberememberedthatthesacrednessofpropertyisanotionfarmorefixedinmodernthaninancienttimestheworldhasgrownolderandisthereforemoreconservativeprimitivesocietyofferedmanyexamplesoflandheldincommoneitherbyatribeorbyatownshipandsuchmayprobablyhavebeentheoriginalformoflandedtenureancientlegislatorshadinventedvariousmodesofdividingandpreservingthedivisionsoflandamongthecitizensaccordingtoaristotletherewerenationswhoheldthelandincommonanddividedtheproduceandtherewereotherswhodividedthelandandstoredtheproduceincommontheevilsofdebtandtheinequalityofpropertywerefargreaterinancientthaninmoderntimesandtheaccidentstowhichpropertywassubjectfromwarorrevolutionortaxationorotherlegislativeinterferencewerealsogreaterallthesecircumstancesgavepropertyalessfixedandsacredcharactertheearlychristiansarebelievedtohaveheldtheirpropertyincommonandtheprincipleissanctionedbythewordsofchristhimselfandhasbeenmaintainedasacounselofperfectioninalmostallagesofthechurchnorhavetherebeenwantinginstancesofmodernenthusiastswhohavemadeareligionofcommunismineveryageofreligiousexcitementnotionslikewycliffesinheritanceofgracehavetendedtoprevailalikespiritbutfiercerandmoreviolenthasappearedinpoliticsthepreparationofthegospelofpeacesoonbecomestheredflagofrepublicanismwecanhardlyjudgewhateffectplatosviewswouldhaveuponhisowncontemporariestheywouldperhapshaveseemedtothemonlyanexaggerationofthespartancommonwealthevenmodernwriterswouldacknowledgethattherightofprivatepropertyisbasedonexpediencyandmaybeinterferedwithinavarietyofwaysforthepublicgoodanyothermodeofvestingpropertywhichwasfoundtobemoreadvantageouswouldintimeacquirethesamebasisofrightthemostusefulinplatoswordswouldbethemostsacredthelawyersandecclesiasticsofformerageswouldhavespokenofpropertyasasacredinstitutionbuttheyonlymeantbysuchlanguagetoopposethegreatestamountofresistancetoanyinvasionoftherightsofindividualsandofthechurchwhenweconsiderthequestionwithoutanyfearofimmediateapplicationtopracticeinthespiritofplatosrepublicarewequitesurethatthereceivednotionsofpropertyarethebestisthedistributionofwealthwhichiscustomaryincivilizedcountriesthemostfavourablethatcanbeconceivedfortheeducationanddevelopmentofthemassofmankindcanthespectatorofalltimeandallexistencebequiteconvincedthatoneortwothousandyearshencegreatchangeswillnothavetakenplaceintherightsofpropertyoreventhattheverynotionofpropertybeyondwhatisnecessaryforpersonalmaintenancemaynothavedisappearedthiswasadistinctionfamiliartoaristotlethoughlikelytobelaughedatamongourselvessuchachangewouldnotbegreaterthansomeotherchangesthroughwhichtheworldhaspassedinthetransitionfromancienttomodernsocietyforexampletheemancipationoftheserfsinrussiaortheabolitionofslaveryinamericaandthewestindiesandnotsogreatasthedifferencewhichseparatestheeasternvillagecommunityfromthewesternworldtoaccomplishsucharevolutioninthecourseofafewcenturieswouldimplyarateofprogressnotmorerapidthanhasactuallytakenplaceduringthelastfiftyorsixtyyearsthekingdomofjapanunderwentmorechangeinfiveorsixyearsthaneuropeinfiveorsixhundredmanyopinionsandbeliefswhichhavebeencherishedamongourselvesquiteasstronglyasthesacrednessofpropertyhavepassedawayandthemostuntenablepropositionsrespectingtherightofbequestsorentailhavebeenmaintainedwithasmuchfervourasthemostmoderatesomeonewillbeheardtoaskwhetherastateofsocietycanbefinalinwhichtheinterestsofthousandsareperilledonthelifeorcharacterofasinglepersonandmanywillindulgethehopethatourpresentconditionmayafterallbeonlytransitionalandmayconducttoahigherinwhichpropertybesidesministeringtotheenjoymentofthefewmayalsofurnishthemeansofthehighestculturetoallandwillbeagreaterbenefittothepublicgenerallyandalsomoreunderthecontrolofpublicauthoritytheremaycomeatimewhenthesayinghaveinotarighttodowhatiwillwithmyownwillappeartobeabarbarousrelicofindividualismwhenthepossessionofapartmaybeagreaterblessingtoeachandallthanthepossessionofthewholeisnowtoanyonesuchreflectionsappearvisionarytotheeyeofthepracticalstatesmanbuttheyarewithintherangeofpossibilitytothephilosopherhecanimaginethatinsomedistantageorclimeandthroughtheinfluenceofsomeindividualthenotionofcommonpropertymayormighthavesunkasdeepintotheheartofaraceandhavebecomeasfixedtothemasprivatepropertyistoourselvesheknowsthatthislatterinstitutionisnotmorethanfourorfivethousandyearsoldmaynottheendreverttothebeginninginourownageevenutopiasaffectthespiritoflegislationandanabstractideamayexerciseagreatinfluenceonpracticalpoliticstheobjectionsthatwouldbegenerallyurgedagainstplatoscommunityofpropertyaretheoldonesofaristotlethatmotivesforexertionwouldbetakenawayandthatdisputeswouldarisewheneachwasdependentuponalleverymanwouldproduceaslittleandconsumeasmuchashelikedtheexperienceofcivilizednationshashithertobeenadversetosocialismtheeffortistoogreatforhumannaturementrytoliveincommonbutthepersonalfeelingisalwaysbreakinginontheotherhanditmaybedoubtedwhetherourpresentnotionsofpropertyarenotconventionalfortheydifferindifferentcountriesandindifferentstatesofsocietyweboastofanindividualismwhichisnotfreedombutratheranartificialresultoftheindustrialstateofmoderneuropetheindividualisnominallyfreebutheisalsopowerlessinaworldboundhandandfootinthechainsofeconomicnecessityevenifwecannotexpectthemassofmankindtobecomedisinterestedatanyrateweobserveinthemapoweroforganizationwhichfiftyyearsagowouldneverhavebeensuspectedthesameforceswhichhaverevolutionizedthepoliticalsystemofeuropemayeffectasimilarchangeinthesocialandindustrialrelationsofmankindandifwesupposetheinfluenceofsomegoodaswellasneutralmotivesworkinginthecommunitytherewillbenoabsurdityinexpectingthatthemassofmankindhavingpowerandbecomingenlightenedaboutthehigherpossibilitiesofhumanlifewhentheylearnhowmuchmoreisattainableforallthanisatpresentthepossessionofafavouredfewmaypursuethecommoninterestwithanintelligenceandpersistencywhichmankindhavehithertoneverseennowthattheworldhasoncebeensetinmotionandisnolongerheldfastunderthetyrannyofcustomandignorancenowthatcriticismhaspiercedtheveiloftraditionandthepastnolongeroverpowersthepresenttheprogressofcivilizationmaybeexpectedtobefargreaterandswifterthanheretoforeevenatourpresentrateofspeedthepointatwhichwemayarriveintwoorthreegenerationsisbeyondthepowerofimaginationtoforeseethereareforcesintheworldwhichworknotinanarithmeticalbutinageometricalratioofincreaseeducationtousetheexpressionofplatomoveslikeawheelwithanevermultiplyingrapiditynorcanwesayhowgreatmaybeitsinfluencewhenitbecomesuniversalwhenithasbeeninheritedbymanygenerationswhenitisfreedfromthetrammelsofsuperstitionandrightlyadaptedtothewantsandcapacitiesofdifferentclassesofmenandwomenneitherdoweknowhowmuchmorethecooperationofmindsorofhandsmaybecapableofaccomplishingwhetherinlabourorinstudytheresourcesofthenaturalsciencesarenothalfdevelopedasyetthesoiloftheearthinsteadofgrowingmorebarrenmaybecomemanytimesmorefertilethanhithertotheusesofmachineryfargreaterandalsomoreminutethanatpresentnewsecretsofphysiologymayberevealeddeeplyaffectinghumannatureinitsinnermostrecessesthestandardofhealthmayberaisedandthelivesofmenprolongedbysanitaryandmedicalknowledgetheremaybepeacetheremaybeleisuretheremaybeinnocentrefreshmentsofmanykindstheeverincreasingpoweroflocomotionmayjointheextremesofearththeremaybemysteriousworkingsofthehumanmindsuchasoccuronlyatgreatcrisesofhistorytheeastandthewestmaymeettogetherandallnationsmaycontributetheirthoughtsandtheirexperiencetothecommonstockofhumanitymanyotherelementsenterintoaspeculationofthiskindbutitisbettertomakeanendofthemforsuchreflectionsappeartothemajorityfarfetchedandtomenofsciencecommonplacebneithertothemindofplatonorofaristotledidthedoctrineofcommunityofpropertypresentatallthesamedifficultyorappeartobethesameviolationofthecommonhellenicsentimentasthecommunityofwivesandchildrenthisparadoxheprefacesbyanotherproposalthattheoccupationsofmenandwomenshallbethesameandthattothisendtheyshallhaveacommontrainingandeducationmaleandfemaleanimalshavethesamepursuitswhynotalsothetwosexesofmanbuthavewenotherefallenintoacontradictionforweweresayingthatdifferentnaturesshouldhavedifferentpursuitshowthencanmenandwomenhavethesameandisnottheproposalinconsistentwithournotionofthedivisionoflabourtheseobjectionsarenosoonerraisedthanansweredforaccordingtoplatothereisnoorganicdifferencebetweenmenandwomenbutonlytheaccidentalonethatmenbegetandwomenbearchildrenfollowingtheanalogyoftheotheranimalshecontendsthatallnaturalgiftsarescatteredaboutindifferentlyamongbothsexesthoughtheremaybeasuperiorityofdegreeonthepartofthementheobjectiononthescoreofdecencytotheirtakingpartinthesamegymnasticexercisesismetbyplatosassertionthattheexistingfeelingisamatterofhabitthatplatoshouldhaveemancipatedhimselffromtheideasofhisowncountryandfromtheexampleoftheeastshowsawonderfulindependenceofmindheisconsciousthatwomenarehalfthehumanraceinsomerespectsthemoreimportanthalflawsandforthesakebothofmenandwomenhedesirestoraisethewomantoahigherlevelofexistencehebringsnotsentimentbutphilosophytobearuponaquestionwhichbothinancientandmoderntimeshasbeenchieflyregardedinthelightofcustomorfeelingthegreekshadnobleconceptionsofwomanhoodinthegoddessesatheneandartemisandintheheroinesantigoneandandromachebuttheseidealshadnocounterpartinactuallifetheathenianwomanwasinnowaytheequalofherhusbandshewasnottheentertainerofhisguestsorthemistressofhishousebutonlyhishousekeeperandthemotherofhischildrenshetooknopartinmilitaryorpoliticalmattersnoristhereanyinstanceinthelateragesofgreeceofawomanbecomingfamousinliteraturehersisthegreatestglorywhohastheleastrenownamongmenisthehistoriansconceptionoffeminineexcellenceaverydifferentidealofwomanhoodisheldupbyplatototheworldsheistobethecompanionofthemanandtosharewithhiminthetoilsofwarandinthecaresofgovernmentsheistobesimilarlytrainedbothinbodilyandmentalexercisessheistoloseasfaraspossibletheincidentsofmaternityandthecharacteristicsofthefemalesexthemodernantagonistoftheequalityofthesexeswouldarguethatthedifferencesbetweenmenandwomenarenotconfinedtothesinglepointurgedbyplatothatsensibilitygentlenessgracearethequalitiesofwomenwhileenergystrengthhigherintelligencearetobelookedforinmenandthecriticismisjustthedifferencesaffectthewholenatureandarenotasplatosupposesconfinedtoasinglepointbutneithercanwesayhowfarthesedifferencesareduetoeducationandtheopinionsofmankindorphysicallyinheritedfromthehabitsandopinionsofformergenerationswomenhavebeenalwaystaughtnotexactlythattheyareslavesbutthattheyareinaninferiorpositionwhichisalsosupposedtohavecompensatingadvantagesandtothispositiontheyhaveconformeditisalsotruethatthephysicalformmayeasilychangeinthecourseofgenerationsthroughthemodeoflifeandtheweaknessordelicacywhichwasonceamatterofopinionmaybecomeaphysicalfactthecharacteristicsofsexvarygreatlyindifferentcountriesandranksofsocietyandatdifferentagesinthesameindividualsplatomayhavebeenrightindenyingthattherewasanyultimatedifferenceinthesexesofmanotherthanthatwhichexistsinanimalsbecauseallotherdifferencesmaybeconceivedtodisappearinotherstatesofsocietyorunderdifferentcircumstancesoflifeandtrainingthefirstwavehavingbeenpassedweproceedtothesecondcommunityofwivesandchildrenisitpossibleisitdesirableforasglauconintimatesandaswefarmorestronglyinsistgreatdoubtsmaybeentertainedaboutboththesepointsanyfreediscussionofthequestionisimpossibleandmankindareperhapsrightinnotallowingtheultimatebasesofsociallifetobeexaminedfewofuscansafelyenquireintothethingswhichnaturehidesanymorethanwecandissectourownbodiesstillthemannerinwhichplatoarrivedathisconclusionsshouldbeconsideredforhereasmrgrotehasremarkedisawonderfulthingthatoneofthewisestandbestofmenshouldhaveentertainedideasofmoralitywhicharewhollyatvariancewithourownandifwewoulddoplatojusticewemustexaminecarefullythecharacterofhisproposalsfirstwemayobservethattherelationsofthesexessupposedbyhimarethereverseoflicentiousheseemsrathertoaimatanimpossiblestrictnesssecondlyheconceivesthefamilytobethenaturalenemyofthestateandheentertainstheserioushopethatanuniversalbrotherhoodmaytaketheplaceofprivateinterestsanaspirationwhichalthoughnotjustifiedbyexperiencehaspossessedmanynoblemindsontheotherhandthereisnosentimentorimaginationintheconnectionswhichmenandwomenaresupposedbyhimtoformhumanbeingsreturntotheleveloftheanimalsneitherexaltingtoheavennoryetabusingthenaturalinstinctsallthatworldofpoetryandfancywhichthepassionoflovehascalledforthinmodernliteratureandromancewouldhavebeenbanishedbyplatothearrangementsofmarriageintherepublicaredirectedtooneobjecttheimprovementoftheraceinsuccessivegenerationsagreatdevelopmentbothofbodilyandmentalqualitiesmightbepossibletheanalogyofanimalstendstoshowthatmankindcanwithincertainlimitsreceiveachangeofnatureandasinanimalsweshouldcommonlychoosethebestforbreedinganddestroytheotherssotheremustbeaselectionmadeofthehumanbeingswhoselivesareworthytobepreservedwestartbackhorrifiedfromthisplatonicidealinthebelieffirstthatthehigherfeelingsofhumanityarefartoostrongtobecrushedoutsecondlythatiftheplancouldbecarriedintoexecutionweshouldbepoorlyrecompensedbyimprovementsinthebreedforthelossofthebestthingsinlifethegreatestregardfortheweakestandmeanestofhumanbeingstheinfantthecriminaltheinsanetheidiottrulyseemstousoneofthenoblestresultsofchristianitywehavelearnedthoughasyetimperfectlythattheindividualmanhasanendlessvalueinthesightofgodandthatwehonourhimwhenwehonourthedarkenedanddisfiguredimageofhimlawsthisisthelessonwhichchristtaughtinaparablewhenhesaidtheirangelsdoalwaysbeholdthefaceofmyfatherwhichisinheavensuchlessonsareonlypartiallyrealizedinanyagetheywereforeigntotheageofplatoastheyhaveverydifferentdegreesofstrengthindifferentcountriesoragesofthechristianworldtothegreekthefamilywasareligiousandcustomaryinstitutionbindingthememberstogetherbyatieinferiorinstrengthtothatoffriendshipandhavingalesssolemnandsacredsoundthanthatofcountrytherelationshipwhichexistedonthelowerlevelofcustomplatoimaginedthathewasraisingtothehigherlevelofnatureandreasonwhilefromthemodernandchristianpointofviewweregardhimassanctioningmurderanddestroyingthefirstprinciplesofmoralitythegreaterrorintheseandsimilarspeculationsisthatthedifferencebetweenmanandtheanimalsisforgotteninthemthehumanbeingisregardedwiththeeyeofadogorbirdfancieroratbestofaslaveownerthehigherorhumanqualitiesareleftoutthebreederofanimalsaimschieflyatsizeorspeedorstrengthinafewcasesatcourageortempermostoftenthefitnessoftheanimalforfoodisthegreatdesideratumbutmankindarenotbredtobeeatennoryetfortheirsuperiorityinfightingorinrunningorindrawingcartsneitherdoestheimprovementofthehumanraceconsistmerelyintheincreaseofthebonesandfleshbutinthegrowthandenlightenmentofthemindhencetheremustbeamarriageoftruemindsaswellasofbodiesofimaginationandreasonaswellasoflustsandinstinctsmenandwomenwithoutfeelingorimaginationarejustlycalledbrutesyetplatotakesawaythesequalitiesandputsnothingintheirplacenoteventhedesireofanobleoffspringsinceparentsarenottoknowtheirownchildrenthemostimportanttransactionofsociallifehewhoistheidealistphilosopherconvertsintothemostbrutalforthepairaretohavenorelationtooneanotherexceptatthehymenealfestivaltheirchildrenarenottheirsbutthestatesnorisanytieofaffectiontounitethemyetheretheanalogyoftheanimalsmighthavesavedplatofromagiganticerrorifhehadnotlostsightofhisownillustrationforthenoblersortofbirdsandbeastsnourishandprotecttheiroffspringandarefaithfultooneanotheraneminentphysiologistthinksitworthwhiletotryandplacelifeonaphysicalbasisbutshouldnotliferestonthemoralratherthanuponthephysicalthehighercomesfirstthenthelowerfirstthehumanandrationalafterwardstheanimalyettheyarenotabsolutelydividedandintimesofsicknessormomentsofselfindulgencetheyseemtobeonlydifferentaspectsofacommonhumannaturewhichincludesthembothneitheristhemoralthelimitofthephysicalbuttheexpansionandenlargementofitthehighestformwhichthephysicaliscapableofreceivingasplatowouldsaythebodydoesnottakecareofthebodyandstilllessofthemindbutthemindtakescareofbothinallhumanactionnotthatwhichiscommontomanandtheanimalsisthecharacteristicelementbutthatwhichdistinguisheshimfromthemevenifweadmitthephysicalbasisandresolveallvirtueintohealthofbodylafaconquenotresangcirculestillonmerelyphysicalgroundswemustcomebacktoideasmindandreasonanddutyandconscienceundertheseorothernamesarealwaysreappearingtherecannotbehealthofbodywithouthealthofmindnorhealthofmindwithoutthesenseofdutyandtheloveoftruthcharmthatthegreatestofancientphilosophersshouldinhisregulationsaboutmarriagehavefallenintotheerrorofseparatingbodyandminddoesindeedappearsurprisingyetthewonderisnotsomuchthatplatoshouldhaveentertainedideasofmoralitywhichtoourownagearerevoltingbutthatheshouldhavecontradictedhimselftoanextentwhichishardlycrediblefallinginaninstantfromtheheavenofidealismintothecrudestanimalismrejoicinginthenewlyfoundgiftofreflectionheappearstohavethoughtoutasubjectaboutwhichhehadbetterhavefollowedtheenlightenedfeelingofhisownagethegeneralsentimentofhellaswasopposedtohismonstrousfancytheoldpoetsandinlatertimethetragediansshowednowantofrespectforthefamilyonwhichmuchoftheirreligionwasbasedbuttheexampleofspartaandperhapsinsomedegreethetendencytodefypublicopinionseemstohavemisledhimhewillmakeonefamilyoutofallthefamiliesofthestatehewillselectthefinestspecimensofmenandwomenandbreedfromtheseonlyyetbecausetheillusionisalwaysreturningfortheanimalpartofhumannaturewillfromtimetotimeassertitselfinthedisguiseofphilosophyaswellasofpoetryandalsobecauseanydeparturefromestablishedmoralityevenwherethisisnotintendedisapttobeunsettlingitmaybeworthwhiletodrawoutalittlemoreatlengththeobjectionstotheplatonicmarriageinthefirstplacehistoryshowsthatwhereverpolygamyhasbeenlargelyallowedtheracehasdeterioratedonemantoonewomanisthelawofgodandnaturenearlyallthecivilizedpeoplesoftheworldatsomeperiodbeforetheageofwrittenrecordshavebecomemonogamistsandthestepwhenoncetakenhasneverbeenretracedtheexceptionsoccurringamongbrahminsormahometansortheancientpersiansareofthatsortwhichmaybesaidtoprovetheruletheconnexionsformedbetweensuperiorandinferiorraceshardlyeverproduceanobleoffspringbecausetheyarelicentiousandbecausethechildreninsuchcasesusuallydespisethemotherandareneglectedbythefatherwhoisashamedofthembarbarousnationswhentheyareintroducedbyeuropeanstovicedieoutpolygamistpeopleseitherimportandadoptchildrenfromothercountriesordwindleinnumbersorbothdynastiesandaristocracieswhichhavedisregardedthelawsofnaturehavedecreasedinnumbersanddegeneratedinstaturemariagesdeconvenanceleavetheirenfeeblingstampontheoffspringofthemkinglearthemarriageofnearrelationsorthemarryinginandinofthesamefamilytendsconstantlytoweaknessoridiocyinthechildrensometimesassumingtheformastheygrowolderofpassionatelicentiousnessthecommonprostituterarelyhasanyoffspringbysuchunmistakableevidenceistheauthorityofmoralityassertedintherelationsofthesexesandsomanymoreelementsenterintothismysterythanaredreamedofbyplatoandsomeotherphilosophersrecentenquirershaveindeedarrivedattheconclusionthatamongprimitivetribesthereexistedacommunityofwivesasofpropertyandthatthecaptivetakenbythespearwastheonlywifeorslavewhomanymanwaspermittedtocallhisownthepartialexistenceofsuchcustomsamongsomeofthelowerracesofmanandthesurvivalofpeculiarceremoniesinthemarriagesofsomecivilizednationsarethoughttofurnishaproofofsimilarinstitutionshavingbeenonceuniversaltherecanbenoquestionthatthestudyofanthropologyhasconsiderablychangedourviewsrespectingthefirstappearanceofmanupontheearthweknowmoreabouttheaboriginesoftheworldthanformerlybutourincreasingknowledgeshowsaboveallthingshowlittleweknowwithallthehelpswhichwrittenmonumentsaffordwedobutfaintlyrealizetheconditionofmantwothousandorthreethousandyearsagoofwhathisconditionwaswhenremovedtoadistanceoryearswhenthemajorityofmankindwerelowerandnearertheanimalsthananytribenowexistingupontheearthwecannotevenentertainconjectureplatolawsandaristotlemetaphmayhavebeenmorerightthanweimagineinsupposingthatsomeformsofcivilisationwerediscoveredandlostseveraltimesoverifwecannotarguethatallbarbarismisadegradedcivilizationneithercanwesetanylimitstothedepthofdegradationtowhichthehumanracemaysinkthroughwardiseaseorisolationandifwearetodrawinferencesabouttheoriginofmarriagefromthepracticeofbarbarousnationsweshouldalsoconsidertheremoteranalogyoftheanimalsmanybirdsandanimalsespeciallythecarnivoroushaveonlyonemateandtheloveandcareofoffspringwhichseemstobenaturalisinconsistentwiththeprimitivetheoryofmarriageifwegobacktoanimaginarystateinwhichmenwerealmostanimalsandthecompanionsofthemwehaveasmuchrighttoarguefromwhatisanimaltowhatishumanasfromthebarbaroustothecivilizedmantherecordofanimallifeontheglobeisfragmentarytheconnectinglinksarewantingandcannotbesuppliedtherecordofsociallifeisstillmorefragmentaryandprecariousevenifweadmitthatourfirstancestorshadnosuchinstitutionasmarriagestillthestagesbywhichmenpassedfromouterbarbarismtothecomparativecivilizationofchinaassyriaandgreeceorevenoftheancientgermansarewhollyunknowntoussuchspeculationsareapttobeunsettlingbecausetheyseemtoshowthataninstitutionwhichwasthoughttobearevelationfromheavenisonlythegrowthofhistoryandexperienceweaskwhatistheoriginofmarriageandwearetoldthatliketherightofpropertyaftermanywarsandcontestsithasgraduallyarisenoutoftheselfishnessofbarbarianswestandfacetofacewithhumannatureinitsprimitivenakednesswearecompelledtoacceptnotthehighestbutthelowestaccountoftheoriginofhumansocietybutontheotherhandwemaytrulysaythateverystepinhumanprogresshasbeeninthesamedirectionandthatinthecourseofagestheideaofmarriageandofthefamilyhasbeenmoreandmoredefinedandconsecratedthecivilizedeastisimmeasurablyinadvanceofanysavagetribesthegreeksandromanshaveimprovedupontheeastthechristiannationshavebeenstricterintheirviewsofthemarriagerelationthananyoftheancientsinthisasinsomanyotherthingsinsteadoflookingbackwithregrettothepastweshouldlookforwardwithhopetothefuturewemustconsecratethatwhichwebelievetobethemostholyandthatwhichisthemostholywillbethemostusefulthereismorereasonformaintainingthesacrednessofthemarriagetiewhenweseethebenefitofitthanwhenweonlyfeltavaguereligioushorrorabouttheviolationofitbutinalltimesoftransitionwhenestablishedbeliefsarebeingunderminedthereisadangerthatinthepassagefromtheoldtothenewwemayinsensiblyletgothemoralprinciplefindinganexcuseforlisteningtothevoiceofpassionintheuncertaintyofknowledgeorthefluctuationsofopinionandtherearemanypersonsinourowndaywhoenlightenedbythestudyofanthropologyandfascinatedbywhatisnewandstrangesomeusingthelanguageoffearothersofhopeareinclinedtobelievethatatimewillcomewhenthroughtheselfassertionofwomenortherebelliousspiritofchildrenbytheanalysisofhumanrelationsorbytheforceofoutwardcircumstancesthetiesoffamilylifemaybebrokenorgreatlyrelaxedtheypointtosocietiesinamericaandelsewherewhichtendtoshowthatthedestructionofthefamilyneednotnecessarilyinvolvetheoverthrowofallmoralitywhereverwemaythinkofsuchspeculationswecanhardlydenythattheyhavebeenmorerifeinthisgenerationthaninanyotherandwhithertheyaretendingwhocanpredicttothedoubtsandqueriesraisedbythesesocialreformersrespectingtherelationofthesexesandthemoralnatureofmanthereisasufficientanswerifanyisneededthedifferenceaboutthemandusisreallyoneoffacttheyarespeakingofmanastheywishorfancyhimtobebutwearespeakingofhimasheistheyisolatetheanimalpartofhisnatureweregardhimasacreaturehavingmanysidesoraspectsmovingbetweengoodandevilstrivingtoriseabovehimselfandtobecomealittlelowerthantheangelswealsotouseaplatonicformulaarenotignorantofthedissatisfactionsandincompatibilitiesoffamilylifeofthemeannessesoftradeoftheflatteriesofoneclassofsocietybyanotheroftheimpedimentswhichthefamilythrowsinthewayofloftyaimsandaspirationsbutweareconsciousthatthereareevilsanddangersinthebackgroundgreaterstillwhicharenotappreciatedbecausetheyareeitherconcealedorsuppressedwhataconditionofmanwouldthatbeinwhichhumanpassionswerecontrolledbynoauthoritydivineorhumaninwhichtherewasnoshameordecencynohigheraffectionovercomingorsanctifyingthenaturalinstinctsbutsimplyaruleofhealthisitforthisthatweareaskedtothrowawaythecivilizationwhichisthegrowthofagesforstrengthandhealtharenottheonlyqualitiestobedesiredtherearethemoreimportantconsiderationsofmindandcharacterandsoulweknowhowhumannaturemaybedegradedwedonotknowhowbyartificialmeansanyimprovementinthebreedcanbeeffectedtheproblemisacomplexoneforifwegobackonlyfourstepsandtheseatleastenterintothecompositionofachildtherearecommonlythirtyprogenitorstobetakenintoaccountmanycuriousfactsrarelyadmittingofproofaretoldusrespectingtheinheritanceofdiseaseorcharacterfromaremoteancestorwecantracethephysicalresemblancesofparentsandchildreninthesamefamilysicoculossicillemanussicoraferebatbutscarcelylessoftenthedifferenceswhichdistinguishchildrenbothfromtheirparentsandfromoneanotherwearetoldofsimilarmentalpeculiaritiesrunninginfamiliesandagainofatendencyasintheanimalstoreverttoacommonororiginalstockbutwehaveadifficultyindistinguishingwhatisatrueinheritanceofgeniusorotherqualitiesandwhatismereimitationortheresultofsimilarcircumstancesgreatmenandgreatwomenhaverarelyhadgreatfathersandmothersnothingthatweknowofinthecircumstancesoftheirbirthorlineagewillexplaintheirappearanceoftheenglishpoetsofthelastandtwoprecedingcenturiesscarcelyadescendantremainsnonehaveeverbeendistinguishedsodeeplyhasnaturehiddenhersecretandsoridiculousisthefancywhichhasbeenentertainedbysomethatwemightintimebysuitablemarriagearrangementsorasplatowouldhavesaidbyaningenioussystemoflotsproduceashakespeareoramiltonevensupposingthatwecouldbreedmenhavingthetenacityofbulldogsorlikethespartanslackingthewittorunawayinbattlewouldtheworldbeanythebettermanyofthenoblestspecimensofthehumanracehavebeenamongtheweakestphysicallytyrtaeusoraesoporourownnewtonwouldhavebeenexposedatspartaandsomeofthefairestandstrongestmenandwomenhavebeenamongthewickedestandworstnotbytheplatonicdeviceofunitingthestrongandfairwiththestrongandfairregardlessofsentimentandmoralitynoryetbyhisotherdeviceofcombiningdissimilarnaturesstatesmanhavemankindgraduallypassedfromthebrutalityandlicentiousnessofprimitivemarriagetomarriagechristianandcivilizedfewpersonswoulddenythatwebringintotheworldaninheritanceofmentalandphysicalqualitiesderivedfirstfromourparentsorthroughthemfromsomeremoterancestorsecondlyfromourracethirdlyfromthegeneralconditionofmankindintowhichwearebornnothingiscommonerthantheremarkthatsoandsoislikehisfatherorhisuncleandanagedpersonmaynotunfrequentlynotearesemblanceinayouthtoalongforgottenancestorobservingthatnaturesometimesskipsagenerationitmaybetruealsothatifweknewmoreaboutourancestorsthesesimilaritieswouldbeevenmorestrikingtousadmittingthefactswhicharethusdescribedinapopularwaywemayhoweverremarkthatthereisnomethodofdifferencebywhichtheycanbedefinedorestimatedandthattheyconstituteonlyasmallpartofeachindividualthedoctrineofhereditymayseemtotakeoutofourhandstheconductofourownlivesbutitistheideanotthefactwhichisreallyterribletousforwhatwehavereceivedfromourancestorsisonlyafractionofwhatweareormaybecometheknowledgethatdrunkennessorinsanityhasbeenprevalentinafamilymaybethebestsafeguardagainsttheirrecurrenceinafuturegenerationtheparentwillbemostawaketothevicesordiseasesinhischildofwhichheismostsensiblewithinhimselfthewholeoflifemaybedirectedtotheirpreventionorcurethetracesofconsumptionmaybecomefainterorbewhollyeffacedtheinherenttendencytoviceorcrimemaybeeradicatedandsoheredityfrombeingacursemaybecomeablessingweacknowledgethatinthematterofourbirthasinournaturegenerallytherearepreviouscircumstanceswhichaffectusbutuponthisplatformofcircumstancesorwithinthiswallofnecessitywehavestillthepowerofcreatingalifeforourselvesbytheinformingenergyofthehumanwillthereisanotheraspectofthemarriagequestiontowhichplatoisastrangerallthechildrenborninhisstatearefoundlingsitneveroccurredtohimthatthegreaterpartofthemaccordingtouniversalexperiencewouldhaveperishedforchildrencanonlybebroughtupinfamiliesthereisasubtlesympathybetweenthemotherandthechildwhichcannotbesuppliedbyothermothersorbystrongnursesoneormorelawsifplatospenwasasfatalasthecrechesofparisorthefoundlinghospitalofdublinmorethanninetenthsofhischildrenwouldhaveperishedtherewouldhavebeennoneedtoexposeorputoutofthewaytheweaklierchildrenfortheywouldhavediedofthemselvessoemphaticallydoesnatureprotestagainstthedestructionofthefamilywhatplatohadheardorseenofspartawasappliedbyhiminamistakenwaytohisidealcommonwealthheprobablyobservedthatboththespartanmenandwomenweresuperiorinformandstrengthtotheothergreeksandthissuperiorityhewasdisposedtoattributetothelawsandcustomsrelatingtomarriagehedidnotconsiderthatthedesireofanobleoffspringwasapassionamongthespartansorthattheirphysicalsuperioritywastobeattributedchieflynottotheirmarriagecustomsbuttotheirtemperanceandtraininghedidnotreflectthatspartawasgreatnotinconsequenceoftherelaxationofmoralitybutinspiteofitbyvirtueofapoliticalprinciplestrongerfarthanexistedinanyothergrecianstateleastofalldidheobservethatspartadidnotreallyproducethefinestspecimensofthegreekracethegeniusthepoliticalinspirationofathenstheloveoflibertyallthathasmadegreecefamouswithposteritywerewantingamongthespartanstheyhadnothemistoclesorpericlesoraeschylusorsophoclesorsocratesorplatotheindividualwasnotallowedtoappearabovethestatethelawswerefixedandhehadnobusinesstoalterorreformthemyetwhencehastheprogressofcitiesandnationsarisenifnotfromremarkableindividualscomingintotheworldweknownothowandfromcausesoverwhichwehavenocontrolsomethingtoomuchmayhavebeensaidinmoderntimesofthevalueofindividualitybutwecanhardlycondemntoostronglyasystemwhichinsteadoffosteringthescatteredseedsorsparksofgeniusandcharactertendstosmotherandextinguishthemstillwhilecondemningplatowemustacknowledgethatneitherchristianitynoranyotherformofreligionandsocietyhashithertobeenabletocopewiththismostdifficultofsocialproblemsandthatthesidefromwhichplatoregardeditisthatfromwhichweturnawaypopulationisthemostuntameableforceinthepoliticalandsocialworlddowenotfindespeciallyinlargecitiesthatthegreatesthindrancetotheameliorationofthepooristheirimprovidenceinmarriageasmallfaulttrulyifnotinvolvingendlessconsequencestherearewholecountriestoosuchasindiaornearerhomeirelandinwhicharightsolutionofthemarriagequestionseemstolieatthefoundationofthehappinessofthecommunitytherearetoomanypeopleonagivenspaceortheymarrytooearlyandbringintotheworldasicklyandhalfdevelopedoffspringorowingtotheveryconditionsoftheirexistencetheybecomeemaciatedandhandonasimilarlifetotheirdescendantsbutwhocanopposethevoiceofprudencetothemightiestpassionsofmankindlawsespeciallywhentheyhavebeenlicensedbycustomandreligioninadditiontotheinfluencesofeducationweseemtorequiresomenewprinciplesofrightandwronginthesematterssomeforceofopinionwhichmayindeedbealreadyheardwhisperinginprivatebuthasneveraffectedthemoralsentimentsofmankindingeneralweunavoidablylosesightoftheprincipleofutilityjustinthatactionofourlivesinwhichwehavethemostneedofittheinfluenceswhichwecanbringtobearuponthisquestionarechieflyindirectinagenerationortwoeducationemigrationimprovementsinagricultureandmanufacturesmayhaveprovidedthesolutionthestatephysicianhardlylikestoprobethewounditisbeyondhisartamatterwhichhecannotsafelyletalonebutwhichhedarenottouchwedobutskinandfilmtheulcerousplacewhenagaininprivatelifeweseeawholefamilyonebyonedroppingintothegraveundertheateofsomeinheritedmaladyandtheparentsperhapssurvivingthemdoourmindsevergobacksilentlytothatdaytwentyfiveorthirtyyearsbeforeonwhichunderthefairestauspicesamidtherejoicingsoffriendsandacquaintancesabrideandbridegroomjoinedhandswithoneanotherinmakingsuchareflectionwearenotopposingphysicalconsiderationstomoralbutmoraltophysicalweareseekingtomakethevoiceofreasonheardwhichdrivesusbackfromtheextravaganceofsentimentalismoncommonsensethelatedrcombeissaidbyhisbiographertohaveresistedthetemptationtomarriagebecauseheknewthathewassubjecttohereditaryconsumptiononewhodeservedtobecalledamanofgeniusafriendofmyyouthwasinthehabitofwearingablackribbononhiswristinordertoremindhimthatbeingliabletooutbreaksofinsanityhemustnotgivewaytothenaturalimpulsesofaffectionhediedunmarriedinalunaticasylumthesetwolittlefactssuggestthereflectionthataveryfewpersonshavedonefromasenseofdutywhattherestofmankindoughttohavedoneunderlikecircumstancesiftheyhadallowedthemselvestothinkofallthemiserywhichtheywereabouttobringintotheworldifwecouldpreventsuchmarriageswithoutanyviolationoffeelingorproprietyweclearlyoughtandtheprohibitioninthecourseoftimewouldbeprotectedbyahorrornaturalissimilartothatwhichinallcivilizedagesandcountrieshaspreventedthemarriageofnearrelationsbybloodmankindwouldhavebeenthehappierifsomethingswhicharenowallowedhadfromthebeginningbeendeniedtothemifthesanctionofreligioncouldhaveprohibitedpracticesinimicaltohealthifsanitaryprinciplescouldinearlyageshavebeeninvestedwithasuperstitiousawebutlivingaswedofaronintheworldshistorywearenolongerabletostampatoncewiththeimpressofreligionanewprohibitionafreeagentcannothavehisfanciesregulatedbylawandtheexecutionofthelawwouldberenderedimpossibleowingtotheuncertaintyofthecasesinwhichmarriagewastobeforbiddenwhocanweighvirtueorevenfortuneagainsthealthormoralandmentalqualitiesagainstbodilywhocanmeasureprobabilitiesagainstcertaintiestherehasbeensomegoodaswellasevilinthedisciplineofsufferingandtherearediseasessuchasconsumptionwhichhaveexercisedarefiningandsofteninginfluenceonthecharacteryouthistooinexperiencedtobalancesuchniceconsiderationsparentsdonotoftenthinkofthemorthinkofthemtoolatetheyareatadistanceandmayprobablybeavertedchangeofplaceanewstateoflifetheinterestsofahomemaybethecureofthemsopersonsvainlyreasonwhentheirmindsarealreadymadeupandtheirfortunesirrevocablylinkedtogethernoristhereanygroundforsupposingthatmarriagesaretoanygreatextentinfluencedbyreflectionsofthissortwhichseemunabletomakeanyheadagainsttheirresistibleimpulseofindividualattachmentlastlynoonecanhaveobservedthefirstrisingfloodofthepassionsinyouththedifficultyofregulatingthemandtheeffectsonthewholemindandnaturewhichfollowfromthemthestimuluswhichisgiventothembytheimaginationwithoutfeelingthatthereissomethingunsatisfactoryinourmethodoftreatingthemthatthemostimportantinfluenceonhumanlifeshouldbewhollylefttochanceorshroudedinmysteryandinsteadofbeingdisciplinedorunderstoodshouldberequiredtoconformonlytoanexternalstandardofproprietycannotberegardedbythephilosopherasasafeorsatisfactoryconditionofhumanthingsandstillthosewhohavethechargeofyouthmayfindawaybywatchfulnessbyaffectionbythemanlinessandinnocenceoftheirownlivesbyoccasionalhintsbygeneraladmonitionswhicheveryonecanapplyforhimselftomitigatethisterribleevilwhicheatsouttheheartofindividualsandcorruptsthemoralsentimentsofnationsinnodutytowardsothersistheremoreneedofreticenceandselfrestraintsogreatisthedangerlesthewhowouldbethecounsellorofanothershouldrevealthesecretprematurelylestheshouldgetanothertoomuchintohispowerorfixthepassingimpressionofevilbydemandingtheconfessionofitnorisplatowronginassertingthatfamilyattachmentsmayinterferewithhigheraimsiftherehavebeensomewhotopartygaveupwhatwasmeantformankindtherehavecertainlybeenotherswhotofamilygaveupwhatwasmeantformankindorfortheircountrythecaresofchildrenthenecessityofprocuringmoneyfortheirsupporttheflatteriesoftherichbythepoortheexclusivenessofcastetheprideofbirthorwealththetendencyoffamilylifetodivertmenfromthepursuitoftheidealortheheroicareasloweringinourownageasinthatofplatoandifweprefertolookatthegentleinfluencesofhomethedevelopmentoftheaffectionstheamenitiesofsocietythedevotionofonememberofafamilyforthegoodoftheotherswhichformonesideofthepicturewemustnotquarrelwithhimorperhapsoughtrathertobegratefultohimforhavingpresentedtousthereversewithoutattemptingtodefendplatoongroundsofmoralitywemayallowthatthereisanaspectoftheworldwhichhasnotunnaturallyledhimintoerrorwehardlyappreciatethepowerwhichtheideaofthestatelikeallotherabstractideasexercisedoverthemindofplatotousthestateseemstobebuiltupoutofthefamilyorsometimestobetheframeworkinwhichfamilyandsociallifeiscontainedbuttoplatoinhispresentmoodofmindthefamilyisonlyadisturbinginfluencewhichinsteadoffillinguptendstodisarrangethehigherunityofthestatenoorganizationisneededexceptapoliticalwhichregardedfromanotherpointofviewisamilitaryonethestateisallsufficingforthewantsofmanandliketheideaofthechurchinlateragesabsorbsallotherdesiresandaffectionsintimeofwarthethousandcitizensaretostandlikearampartimpregnableagainsttheworldorthepersianhostintimeofpeacethepreparationforwarandtheirdutiestothestatewhicharealsotheirdutiestooneanothertakeuptheirwholelifeandtimetheonlyotherinterestwhichisallowedtothembesidesthatofwaristheinterestofphilosophywhentheyaretoooldtobesoldierstheyaretoretirefromactivelifeandtohaveasecondnovitiateofstudyandcontemplationthereisanelementofmonasticismeveninplatoscommunismifhecouldhavedonewithoutchildrenhemighthaveconvertedhisrepublicintoareligiousorderneitherinthelawswhenthedaylightofcommonsensebreaksinuponhimdoesheretracthiserrorinthestateofwhichhewouldbethefounderthereisnomarryingorgivinginmarriagebutbecauseoftheinfirmityofmankindhecondescendstoallowthelawofnaturetoprevailcbutplatohasanequalorinhisownestimationevengreaterparadoxinreservewhichissummedupinthefamoustextuntilkingsarephilosophersorphilosophersarekingscitieswillneverceasefromillandbyphilosophersheexplainshimselftomeanthosewhoarecapableofapprehendingideasespeciallytheideaofgoodtotheattainmentofthishigherknowledgethesecondeducationisdirectedthroughaprocessoftrainingwhichhasalreadymadethemgoodcitizenstheyarenowtobemadegoodlegislatorswefindwithsomesurprisenotunlikethefeelingwhicharistotleinawellknownpassagedescribesthehearersofplatoslecturesasexperiencingwhentheywenttoadiscourseontheideaofgoodexpectingtobeinstructedinmoraltruthsandreceivedinsteadofthemarithmeticalandmathematicalformulaethatplatodoesnotproposeforhisfuturelegislatorsanystudyoffinanceorlawormilitarytacticsbutonlyofabstractmathematicsasapreparationforthestillmoreabstractconceptionofgoodweaskwitharistotlewhatistheuseofamanknowingtheideaofgoodifhedoesnotknowwhatisgoodforthisindividualthisstatethisconditionofsocietywecannotunderstandhowplatoslegislatorsorguardiansaretobefittedfortheirworkofstatesmenbythestudyofthefivemathematicalscienceswevainlysearchinplatosownwritingsforanyexplanationofthisseemingabsurditythediscoveryofagreatmetaphysicalconceptionseemstoravishthemindwithapropheticconsciousnesswhichtakesawaythepowerofestimatingitsvaluenometaphysicalenquirerhaseverfairlycriticisedhisownspeculationsinhisownjudgmenttheyhavebeenabovecriticismnorhasheunderstoodthatwhattohimseemedtobeabsolutetruthmayreappearinthenextgenerationasaformoflogicoraninstrumentofthoughtandposterityhavealsosometimesequallymisapprehendedtherealvalueofhisspeculationstheyappeartothemtohavecontributednothingtothestockofhumanknowledgetheideaofgoodisapttoberegardedbythemodernthinkerasanunmeaningabstractionbutheforgetsthatthisabstractioniswaitingreadyforuseandwillhereafterbefilledupbythedivisionsofknowledgewhenmankinddonotasyetknowthattheworldissubjecttolawtheintroductionofthemereconceptionoflawordesignorfinalcauseandthefaroffanticipationoftheharmonyofknowledgearegreatstepsonwardeventhecrudegeneralizationoftheunityofallthingsleadsmentoviewtheworldwithdifferenteyesandmayeasilyaffecttheirconceptionofhumanlifeandofpoliticsandalsotheirownconductandcharactertimwecanimaginehowagreatmindlikethatofpericlesmightderiveelevationfromhisintercoursewithanaxagorasphaedrtobestrugglingtowardsahigherbutunattainableconceptionisamorefavourableintellectualconditionthantorestsatisfiedinanarrowportionofascertainedfactandtheearlierwhichhavesometimesbeenthegreaterideasofscienceareoftenlostsightofatalaterperiodhowrarelycanwesayofanymodernenquirerinthemagnificentlanguageofplatothatheisthespectatorofalltimeandofallexistencenoristhereanythingunnaturalinthehastyapplicationofthesevastmetaphysicalconceptionstopracticalandpoliticallifeinthefirstenthusiasmofideasmenareapttoseethemeverywhereandtoapplytheminthemostremotespheretheydonotunderstandthattheexperienceofagesisrequiredtoenablethemtofilluptheintermediateaxiomsplatohimselfseemstohaveimaginedthatthetruthsofpsychologylikethoseofastronomyandharmonicswouldbearrivedatbyaprocessofdeductionandthatthemethodwhichhehaspursuedinthefourthbookofinferringthemfromexperienceandtheuseoflanguagewasimperfectandonlyprovisionalbutwhenafterhavingarrivedattheideaofgoodwhichistheendofthescienceofdialecticheisaskedwhatisthenatureandwhatarethedivisionsofthescienceherefusestoanswerasifintendingbytherefusaltointimatethatthestateofknowledgewhichthenexistedwasnotsuchaswouldallowthephilosophertoenterintohisfinalresttheprevioussciencesmustfirstbestudiedandwillwemayaddcontinuetobestudiedtelltheendoftimealthoughinasensedifferentfromanywhichplatocouldhaveconceivedbutwemayobservethatwhileheisawareofthevacancyofhisownidealheisfullofenthusiasminthecontemplationofitlookingintotheorboflightheseesnothingbutheiswarmedandelevatedthehebrewprophetbelievedthatfaithingodwouldenablehimtogoverntheworldthegreekphilosopherimaginedthatcontemplationofthegoodwouldmakealegislatorthereisasmuchtobefilledupintheonecaseasintheotherandtheonemodeofconceptionistotheisraelitewhattheotheristothegreekbothfindareposeinadivineperfectionwhichwhetherinamorepersonalorimpersonalformexistswithoutthemandindependentlyofthemaswellaswithinthemthereisnomentionoftheideaofgoodinthetimaeusnorofthedivinecreatoroftheworldintherepublicandwearenaturallyledtoaskinwhatrelationtheystandtooneanotherisgodaboveorbelowtheideaofgoodoristheideaofgoodanothermodeofconceivinggodthelatterappearstobethetrueranswertothegreekphilosophertheperfectionandunityofgodwasafarhigherconceptionthanhispersonalitywhichhehardlyfoundawordtoexpressandwhichtohimwouldhaveseemedtobeborrowedfrommythologytothechristianontheotherhandortothemodernthinkeringeneralitisdifficultifnotimpossibletoattachrealitytowhathetermsmereabstractionwhiletoplatothisveryabstractionisthetruestandmostrealofallthingshencefromadifferenceinformsofthoughtplatoappearstoberestingonacreationofhisownmindonlybutifwemaybeallowedtoparaphrasetheideaofgoodbythewordsintelligentprincipleoflawandorderintheuniverseembracingequallymanandnaturewebegintofindameetingpointbetweenhimandourselvesthequestionwhethertherulerorstatesmanshouldbeaphilosopherisonethathasnotlostinterestinmoderntimesinmostcountriesofeuropeandasiatherehasbeensomeoneinthecourseofageswhohastrulyunitedthepowerofcommandwiththepowerofthoughtandreflectionastherehavebeenalsomanyfalsecombinationsofthesequalitiessomekindofspeculativepowerisnecessarybothinpracticalandpoliticallifeliketherhetoricianinthephaedrusmenrequiretohaveaconceptionofthevarietiesofhumancharacterandtoberaisedongreatoccasionsabovethecommonplacesofordinarylifeyettheideaofthephilosopherstatesmanhasneverbeenpopularwiththemassofmankindpartlybecausehecannottaketheworldintohisconfidenceormakethemunderstandthemotivesfromwhichheactsandalsobecausetheyarejealousofapowerwhichtheydonotunderstandtherevolutionwhichhumannaturedesirestoeffectstepbystepinmanyagesislikelytobeprecipitatedbyhiminasingleyearorlifetheyareafraidthatinthepursuitofhisgreateraimshemaydisregardthecommonfeelingsofhumanityheistooapttobelookingintothedistantfutureorbackintotheremotepastandunabletoseeactionsoreventswhichtouseanexpressionofplatosaretumblingoutathisfeetbesidesasplatowouldsaythereareothercorruptionsofthesephilosophicalstatesmeneitherthenativehueofresolutionissickliedoerwiththepalecastofthoughtandatthemomentwhenactionaboveallthingsisrequiredheisundecidedorgeneralprinciplesareenunciatedbyhiminordertocoversomechangeofpolicyorhisignoranceoftheworldhasmadehimmoreeasilyfallapreytotheartsofothersorinsomecaseshehasbeenconvertedintoacourtierwhoenjoystheluxuryofholdingliberalopinionsbutwasneverknowntoperformaliberalactionnowonderthatmankindhavebeeninthehabitofcallingstatesmenofthisclasspedantssophistersdoctrinairesvisionariesforaswemaybeallowedtosayalittleparodyingthewordsofplatotheyhaveseenbadimitationsofthephilosopherstatesmanbutamaninwhomthepowerofthoughtandactionareperfectlybalancedequaltothepresentreachingforwardtothefuturesuchaonerulinginaconstitutionalstatetheyhaveneverseenbutasthephilosopherisapttofailintheroutineofpoliticallifesotheordinarystatesmanisalsoapttofailinextraordinarycriseswhenthefaceoftheworldisbeginningtoalterandthunderisheardinthedistanceheisstillguidedbyhisoldmaximsandistheslaveofhisinveteratepartyprejudiceshecannotperceivethesignsofthetimesinsteadoflookingforwardhelooksbackhelearnsnothingandforgetsnothingwithwisesawsandmoderninstanceshewouldstemtherisingtideofrevolutionhelivesmoreandmorewithinthecircleofhisownpartyastheworldwithouthimbecomesstrongerthisseemstobethereasonwhytheoldorderofthingsmakessopoorafigurewhenconfrontedwiththenewwhychurchescanneverreformwhymostpoliticalchangesaremadeblindlyandconvulsivelythegreatcrisesinthehistoryofnationshaveoftenbeenmetbyanecclesiasticalpositivenessandamoreobstinatereassertionofprincipleswhichhavelosttheirholduponanationthefixedideasofareactionarystatesmanmaybecomparedtomadnesstheygrowuponhimandhebecomespossessedbythemnojudgementofothersiseveradmittedbyhimtobeweighedinthebalanceagainsthisowndplatolabouringunderwhattomodernreadersappearstohavebeenaconfusionofideasassimilatesthestatetotheindividualandfailstodistinguishethicsfrompoliticshethinksthattobemostofastatewhichismostlikeonemanandinwhichthecitizenshavethegreatestuniformityofcharacterhedoesnotseethattheanalogyispartlyfallaciousandthatthewillorcharacterofastateornationisreallythebalanceorratherthesurplusofindividualwillswhicharelimitedbytheconditionofhavingtoactincommonthemovementofabodyofmencanneverhavethepliancyorfacilityofasinglemanthefreedomoftheindividualwhichisalwayslimitedbecomesstillmorestraitenedwhentransferredtoanationthepowersofactionandfeelingarenecessarilyweakerandmorebalancedwhentheyarediffusedthroughacommunitywhencearisestheoftendiscussedquestioncananationlikeanindividualhaveaconsciencewehesitatetosaythatthecharactersofnationsarenothingmorethanthesumofthecharactersoftheindividualswhocomposethembecausetheremaybetendenciesinindividualswhichreactupononeanotherawholenationmaybewiserthananyonemaninitormaybeanimatedbysomecommonopinionorfeelingwhichcouldnotequallyhaveaffectedthemindofasinglepersonormayhavebeeninspiredbyaleaderofgeniustoperformactsmorethanhumanplatodoesnotappeartohaveanalysedthecomplicationswhichariseoutofthecollectiveactionofmankindneitherishecapableofseeingthatanalogiesthoughspeciousasargumentsmayoftenhavenofoundationinfactorofdistinguishingbetweenwhatisintelligibleorvividlypresenttothemindandwhatistrueinthisrespectheisfarbelowaristotlewhoiscomparativelyseldomimposeduponbyfalseanalogieshecannotdisentangletheartsfromthevirtuesatleastheisalwaysarguingfromonetotheotherhisnotionofmusicistransferredfromharmonyofsoundstoharmonyoflifeinthisheisassistedbytheambiguitiesoflanguageaswellasbytheprevalenceofpythagoreannotionsandhavingonceassimilatedthestatetotheindividualheimaginesthathewillfindthesuccessionofstatesparalleledinthelivesofindividualsstillthroughthisfallaciousmediumarealenlargementofideasisattainedwhenthevirtuesasyetpresentednodistinctconceptiontothemindagreatadvancewasmadebythecomparisonofthemwiththeartsforvirtueispartlyartandhasanoutwardformaswellasaninwardprincipletheharmonyofmusicaffordsalivelyimageoftheharmoniesoftheworldandofhumanlifeandmayberegardedasasplendidillustrationwhichwasnaturallymistakenforarealanalogyinthesamewaytheidentificationofethicswithpoliticshasatendencytogivedefinitenesstoethicsandalsotoelevateandennoblemensnotionsoftheaimsofgovernmentandofthedutiesofcitizensforethicsfromonepointofviewmaybeconceivedasanidealizedlawandpoliticsandpoliticsasethicsreducedtotheconditionsofhumansocietytherehavebeenevilswhichhavearisenoutoftheattempttoidentifythemandthishasledtotheseparationorantagonismofthemwhichhasbeenintroducedbymodernpoliticalwritersbutwemaylikewisefeelthatsomethinghasbeenlostintheirseparationandthattheancientphilosopherswhoestimatedthemoralandintellectualwellbeingofmankindfirstandthewealthofnationsandindividualssecondmayhaveasalutaryinfluenceonthespeculationsofmoderntimesmanypoliticalmaximsoriginateinareactionagainstanoppositeerrorandwhentheerrorsagainstwhichtheyweredirectedhavepassedawaytheyinturnbecomeerrorsplatosviewsofeducationareinseveralrespectsremarkableliketherestoftherepublictheyarepartlygreekandpartlyidealbeginningwiththeordinarycurriculumofthegreekyouthandextendingtoafterlifeplatoisthefirstwriterwhodistinctlysaysthateducationistocomprehendthewholeoflifeandtobeapreparationforanotherinwhicheducationbeginsagainthisisthecontinuousthreadwhichrunsthroughtherepublicandwhichmorethananyotherofhisideasadmitsofanapplicationtomodernlifehehaslonggivenupthenotionthatvirtuecannotbetaughtandheisdisposedtomodifythethesisoftheprotagorasthatthevirtuesareoneandnotmanyheisnotunwillingtoadmitthesensibleworldintohisschemeoftruthnordoesheassertintherepublictheinvoluntarinessofvicewhichismaintainedbyhiminthetimaeussophistandlawsprotagapolgorgnordothesocalledplatonicideasrecoveredfromaformerstateofexistenceaffecthistheoryofmentalimprovementstillweobserveinhimtheremainsoftheoldsocraticdoctrinethattrueknowledgemustbeelicitedfromwithinandistobesoughtforinideasnotinparticularsofsenseeducationashesayswillimplantaprincipleofintelligencewhichisbetterthantenthousandeyestheparadoxthatthevirtuesareoneandthekindrednotionthatallvirtueisknowledgearenotentirelyrenouncedthefirstisseeninthesupremacygiventojusticeovertherestthesecondinthetendencytoabsorbthemoralvirtuesintheintellectualandtocentreallgoodnessinthecontemplationoftheideaofgoodtheworldofsenseisstilldepreciatedandidentifiedwithopinionthoughadmittedtobeashadowofthetrueintherepublicheisevidentlyimpressedwiththeconvictionthatviceariseschieflyfromignoranceandmaybecuredbyeducationthemultitudearehardlytobedeemedresponsibleforwhattheydoafaintallusiontothedoctrineofreminiscenceoccursinthetenthbookbutplatosviewsofeducationhavenomorerealconnectionwithapreviousstateofexistencethanourownheonlyproposestoelicitfromthemindthatwhichistherealreadyeducationisrepresentedbyhimnotasthefillingofavesselbutastheturningtheeyeofthesoultowardsthelighthetreatsfirstofmusicorliteraturewhichhedividesintotrueandfalseandthengoesontogymnasticsofinfancyintherepublichetakesnonoticethoughinthelawshegivessagecounselsaboutthenursingofchildrenandthemanagementofthemothersandwouldhaveaneducationwhichisevenpriortobirthbutintherepublichebeginswiththeageatwhichthechildiscapableofreceivingideasandboldlyassertsinlanguagewhichsoundsparadoxicaltomodernearsthathemustbetaughtthefalsebeforehecanlearnthetruethemodernandancientphilosophicalworldarenotagreedabouttruthandfalsehoodtheoneidentifiestruthalmostexclusivelywithfacttheotherwithideasthisisthedifferencebetweenourselvesandplatowhichishoweverpartlyadifferenceofwordsforwetooshouldadmitthatachildmustreceivemanylessonswhichheimperfectlyunderstandshemustbetaughtsomethingsinafigureonlysometoowhichhecanhardlybeexpectedtobelievewhenhegrowsolderbutweshouldlimittheuseoffictionbythenecessityofthecaseplatowoulddrawthelinedifferentlyaccordingtohimtheaimofearlyeducationisnottruthasamatteroffactbuttruthasamatterofprinciplethechildistobetaughtfirstsimplereligioustruthsandthensimplemoraltruthsandinsensiblytolearnthelessonofgoodmannersandgoodtastehewouldmakeanentirereformationoftheoldmythologylikexenophanesandheracleitusheissensibleofthedeepchasmwhichseparateshisownagefromhomerandhesiodwhomhequotesandinvestswithanimaginaryauthoritybutonlyforhisownpurposesthelustsandtreacheriesofthegodsaretobebanishedtheterrorsoftheworldbelowaretobedispelledthemisbehaviourofthehomericheroesisnottobeamodelforyouthbutthereisanotherstrainheardinhomerwhichmayteachouryouthenduranceandsomethingmaybelearntinmedicinefromthesimplepracticeofthehomericagetheprinciplesonwhichreligionistobebasedaretwoonlyfirstthatgodistruesecondlythatheisgoodmodernandchristianwritershaveoftenfallenshortofthesetheycanhardlybesaidtohavegonebeyondthemtheyoungaretobebroughtupinhappysurroundingsoutofthewayofsightsorsoundswhichmayhurtthecharacterorvitiatethetastetheyaretoliveinanatmosphereofhealththebreezeisalwaystobewaftingtothemtheimpressionsoftruthandgoodnesscouldsuchaneducationberealizedorifourmodernreligiouseducationcouldbeboundupwithtruthandvirtueandgoodmannersandgoodtastethatwouldbethebesthopeofhumanimprovementplatolikeourselvesislookingforwardtochangesinthemoralandreligiousworldandispreparingforthemherecognizesthedangerofunsettlingyoungmensmindsbysuddenchangesoflawsandprinciplesbydestroyingthesacrednessofonesetofideaswhenthereisnothingelsetotaketheirplaceheisafraidtoooftheinfluenceofthedramaonthegroundthatitencouragesfalsesentimentandthereforehewouldnothavehischildrentakentothetheatrehethinksthattheeffectonthespectatorsisbadandontheactorsstillworsehisideaofeducationisthatofharmoniousgrowthinwhichareinsensiblylearntthelessonsoftemperanceandenduranceandthebodyandminddevelopeinequalproportionsthefirstprinciplewhichrunsthroughallartandnatureissimplicitythisalsoistobetheruleofhumanlifethesecondstageofeducationisgymnasticwhichanswerstotheperiodofmusculargrowthanddevelopmentthesimplicitywhichisenforcedinmusicisextendedtogymnasticplatoisawarethatthetrainingofthebodymaybeinconsistentwiththetrainingofthemindandthatbodilyexercisemaybeeasilyoverdoneexcessivetrainingofthebodyisapttogivemenaheadacheortorenderthemsleepyatalectureonphilosophyandthistheyattributenottothetruecausebuttothenatureofthesubjecttwopointsarenoticeableinplatostreatmentofgymnasticfirstthatthetimeoftrainingisentirelyseparatedfromthetimeofliteraryeducationheseemstohavethoughtthattwothingsofanoppositeanddifferentnaturecouldnotbelearntatthesametimeherewecanhardlyagreewithhimandifwemayjudgebyexperiencetheeffectofspendingthreeyearsbetweentheagesoffourteenandseventeeninmerebodilyexercisewouldbefarfromimprovingtotheintellectsecondlyheaffirmsthatmusicandgymnasticarenotascommonopinionisapttoimagineintendedtheoneforthecultivationofthemindandtheotherofthebodybutthattheyarebothequallydesignedfortheimprovementofthemindthebodyinhisviewistheservantofthemindthesubjectionofthelowertothehigherisfortheadvantageofbothanddoubtlessthemindmayexerciseaverygreatandparamountinfluenceoverthebodyifexertednotatparticularmomentsandbyfitsandstartsbutcontinuouslyinmakingpreparationforthewholeoflifeothergreekwriterssawthemischievoustendencyofspartandisciplinearistpolthucbutonlyplatorecognizedthefundamentalerroronwhichthepracticewasbasedthesubjectofgymnasticleadsplatotothesistersubjectofmedicinewhichhefurtherillustratesbytheparalleloflawthemoderndisbeliefinmedicinehasledinthisasinsomeotherdepartmentsofknowledgetoademandforgreatersimplicityphysiciansarebecomingawarethattheyoftenmakediseasesgreaterandmorecomplicatedbytheirtreatmentofthemrepintwothousandyearstheirarthasmadebutslenderprogresswhattheyhavegainedintheanalysisofthepartsisinagreatdegreelostbytheirfeeblerconceptionofthehumanframeasawholetheyhaveattendedmoretothecureofdiseasesthantotheconditionsofhealthandtheimprovementsinmedicinehavebeenmorethancounterbalancedbythedisuseofregulartraininguntillatelytheyhavehardlythoughtofairandwatertheimportanceofwhichwaswellunderstoodbytheancientsasaristotleremarksairandwaterbeingtheelementswhichwemostusehavethegreatesteffectuponhealthpolitforagesphysicianshavebeenunderthedominionofprejudiceswhichhaveonlyrecentlygivenwayandnowthereareasmanyopinionsinmedicineasintheologyandanequaldegreeofscepticismandsomewantoftolerationaboutbothplatohasseveralgoodnotionsaboutmedicineaccordingtohimtheeyecannotbecuredwithouttherestofthebodynorthebodywithoutthemindcharmnomanofsensehesaysinthetimaeuswouldtakephysicandweheartilysympathizewithhiminthelawswhenhedeclaresthatthelimbsoftherusticwornwithtoilwillderivemorebenefitfromwarmbathsthanfromtheprescriptionsofanotoverwisedoctorbutwecanhardlypraisehimwheninobediencetotheauthorityofhomerhedepreciatesdietorapproveoftheinhumanspiritinwhichhewouldgetridofinvalidanduselesslivesbyleavingthemtodiehedoesnotseemtohaveconsideredthatthebridleoftheagesmightbeaccompaniedbyqualitieswhichwereoffarmorevaluetothestatethanthehealthorstrengthofthecitizensorthatthedutyoftakingcareofthehelplessmightbeanimportantelementofeducationinastatethephysicianhimselfthisisadelicateandsubtleobservationshouldnotbeamaninrobusthealthheshouldhaveinmodernphraseologyanervoustemperamentheshouldhaveexperienceofdiseaseinhisownpersoninorderthathispowersofobservationmaybequickenedinthecaseofotherstheperplexityofmedicineisparalleledbytheperplexityoflawinwhichagainplatowouldhavemenfollowthegoldenruleofsimplicitygreatermattersaretobedeterminedbythelegislatororbytheoracleofdelphilessermattersaretobelefttothetemporaryregulationofthecitizensthemselvesplatoisawarethatlaissezfaireisanimportantelementofgovernmentthediseasesofastateareliketheheadsofahydratheymultiplywhentheyarecutoffthetrueremedyforthemisnotextirpationbutpreventionandthewaytopreventthemistotakecareofeducationandeducationwilltakecareofalltherestsoinmoderntimesmenhaveoftenfeltthattheonlypoliticalmeasureworthhavingtheonlyonewhichwouldproduceanycertainorlastingeffectwasameasureofnationaleducationandinourownmorethaninanypreviousagethenecessityhasbeenrecognizedofrestoringtheeverincreasingconfusionoflawtosimplicityandcommonsensewhenthetraininginmusicandgymnasticiscompletedtherefollowsthefirststageofactiveandpubliclifebutsooneducationistobeginagainfromanewpointofviewintheintervalbetweenthefourthandseventhbookswehavediscussedthenatureofknowledgeandhavethencebeenledtoformahigherconceptionofwhatwasrequiredofusfortrueknowledgeaccordingtoplatoisofabstractionsandhastodonotwithparticularsorindividualsbutwithuniversalsonlynotwiththebeautiesofpoetrybutwiththeideasofphilosophyandthegreataimofeducationisthecultivationofthehabitofabstractionthisistobeacquiredthroughthestudyofthemathematicalsciencestheyalonearecapableofgivingideasofrelationandofarousingthedormantenergiesofthoughtmathematicsintheageofplatocomprehendedaverysmallpartofthatwhichisnowincludedinthembuttheyboreamuchlargerproportiontothesumofhumanknowledgetheyweretheonlyorganonofthoughtwhichthehumanmindatthattimepossessedandtheonlymeasurebywhichthechaosofparticularscouldbereducedtoruleandorderthefacultywhichtheytrainedwasnaturallyatwarwiththepoeticalorimaginativeandhencetoplatowhoiseverywhereseekingforabstractionsandtryingtogetridoftheillusionsofsensenearlythewholeofeducationiscontainedinthemtheyseemedtohaveaninexhaustibleapplicationpartlybecausetheirtruelimitswerenotyetunderstoodtheseplatohimselfisbeginningtoinvestigatethoughnotawarethatnumberandfigurearemereabstractionsofsenseherecognizesthattheformsusedbygeometryareborrowedfromthesensibleworldheseekstofindtheultimategroundofmathematicalideasintheideaofgoodthoughhedoesnotsatisfactorilyexplaintheconnexionbetweenthemandinhisconceptionoftherelationofideastonumbershefallsveryfarshortofthedefinitenessattributedtohimbyaristotlemetbutifhefailstorecognizethetruelimitsofmathematicshealsoreachesapointbeyondtheminhisviewideasofnumberbecomesecondarytoahigherconceptionofknowledgethedialecticianisasmuchabovethemathematicianasthemathematicianisabovetheordinarymantheonetheselfprovingthegoodwhichisthehighersphereofdialecticistheperfecttruthtowhichallthingsascendandinwhichtheyfinallyreposethisselfprovingunityorideaofgoodisamerevisionofwhichnodistinctexplanationcanbegivenrelativeonlytoaparticularstageingreekphilosophyitisanabstractionunderwhichnoindividualsarecomprehendedawholewhichhasnopartsaristniceththevacancyofsuchaformwasperceivedbyaristotlebutnotbyplatonordidherecognizethatinthedialecticalprocessareincludedtwoormoremethodsofinvestigationwhichareatvariancewitheachotherhedidnotseethatwhetherhetookthelongerortheshorterroadnoadvancecouldbemadeinthiswayandyetsuchvisionsoftenhaveanimmenseeffectforalthoughthemethodofsciencecannotanticipatesciencetheideaofsciencenotasitisbutasitwillbeinthefutureisagreatandinspiringprincipleinthepursuitofknowledgewearealwayspressingforwardtosomethingbeyondusandasafalseconceptionofknowledgeforexamplethescholasticphilosophymayleadmenastrayduringmanyagessothetrueidealthoughvacantmaydrawalltheirthoughtsinarightdirectionitmakesagreatdifferencewhetherthegeneralexpectationofknowledgeasthisindefinitefeelingmaybetermedisbaseduponasoundjudgmentformankindmayoftenentertainatrueconceptionofwhatknowledgeoughttobewhentheyhavebutaslenderexperienceoffactsthecorrelationofthesciencestheconsciousnessoftheunityofnaturetheideaofclassificationthesenseofproportiontheunwillingnesstostopshortofcertaintyortoconfoundprobabilitywithtruthareimportantprinciplesofthehighereducationalthoughplatocouldtellusnothingandperhapsknewthathecouldtellusnothingoftheabsolutetruthhehasexercisedaninfluenceonthehumanmindwhichevenatthepresentdayisnotexhaustedandpoliticalandsocialquestionsmayyetariseinwhichthethoughtsofplatomaybereadanewandreceiveafreshmeaningtheideaofgoodissocalledonlyintherepublicbuttherearetracesofitinotherdialoguesofplatoitisacauseaswellasanideaandfromthispointofviewmaybecomparedwiththecreatorofthetimaeuswhooutofhisgoodnesscreatedallthingsitcorrespondstoacertainextentwiththemodernconceptionofalawofnatureorofafinalcauseorofbothinoneandinthisregardmaybeconnectedwiththemeasureandsymmetryofthephilebusitisrepresentedinthesymposiumundertheaspectofbeautyandissupposedtobeattainedtherebystagesofinitiationasherebyregulargradationsofknowledgeviewedsubjectivelyitistheprocessorscienceofdialecticthisisthesciencewhichaccordingtothephaedrusisthetruebasisofrhetoricwhichaloneisabletodistinguishthenaturesandclassesofmenandthingswhichdividesawholeintothenaturalpartsandreunitesthescatteredpartsintoanaturalororganizedwholewhichdefinestheabstractessencesoruniversalideasofallthingsandconnectsthemwhichpiercestheveilofhypothesesandreachesthefinalcauseorfirstprincipleofallwhichregardsthesciencesinrelationtotheideaofgoodthisidealscienceisthehighestprocessofthoughtandmaybedescribedasthesoulconversingwithherselforholdingcommunionwitheternaltruthandbeautyandinanotherformistheeverlastingquestionandanswertheceaselessinterrogativeofsocratesthedialoguesofplatoarethemselvesexamplesofthenatureandmethodofdialecticviewedobjectivelytheideaofgoodisapowerorcausewhichmakestheworldwithoutuscorrespondwiththeworldwithinyetthisworldwithoutusisstillaworldofideaswithplatotheinvestigationofnatureisanotherdepartmentofknowledgeandinthisheseekstoattainonlyprobableconclusionstimaeusifweaskwhetherthisscienceofdialecticwhichplatoonlyhalfexplainstousismoreakintologicortometaphysicstheansweristhatinhismindthetwosciencesarenotasyetdistinguishedanymorethanthesubjectiveandobjectiveaspectsoftheworldandofmanwhichgermanphilosophyhasrevealedtousnorhashedeterminedwhetherhisscienceofdialecticisatrestorinmotionconcernedwiththecontemplationofabsolutebeingorwithaprocessofdevelopmentandevolutionmodernmetaphysicsmaybedescribedasthescienceofabstractionsorasthescienceoftheevolutionofthoughtmodernlogicwhenpassingbeyondtheboundsofmerearistotelianformsmaybedefinedasthescienceofmethodthegermofbothofthemiscontainedintheplatonicdialecticallmetaphysicianshavesomethingincommonwiththeideasofplatoalllogicianshavederivedsomethingfromthemethodofplatothenearestapproachinmodernphilosophytotheuniversalscienceofplatoistobefoundinthehegeliansuccessionofmomentsintheunityoftheideaplatoandhegelalikeseemtohaveconceivedtheworldasthecorrelationofabstractionsandnotimpossiblytheywouldhaveunderstoodoneanotherbetterthananyoftheircommentatorsunderstandthemswiftsvoyagetolaputahavingadesiretoseethoseancientswhoweremostrenownedforwitandlearningisetapartonedayonpurposeiproposedthathomerandaristotlemightappearattheheadofalltheircommentatorsbuttheseweresonumerousthatsomehundredswereforcedtoattendinthecourtandoutwardroomsofthepalaceiknewandcoulddistinguishthesetwoheroesatfirstsightnotonlyfromthecrowdbutfromeachotherhomerwasthetallerandcomelierpersonofthetwowalkedveryerectforoneofhisageandhiseyeswerethemostquickandpiercingieverbeheldaristotlestoopedmuchandmadeuseofastaffhisvisagewasmeagrehishairlankandthinandhisvoicehollowisoondiscoveredthatbothofthemwereperfectstrangerstotherestofthecompanyandhadneverseenorheardofthembeforeandihadawhisperfromaghostwhoshallbenamelessthatthesecommentatorsalwayskeptinthemostdistantquartersfromtheirprincipalsinthelowerworldthroughaconsciousnessofshameandguiltbecausetheyhadsohorriblymisrepresentedthemeaningoftheseauthorstoposterityiintroduceddidymusandeustathiustohomerandprevailedonhimtotreatthembetterthanperhapstheydeservedforhesoonfoundtheywantedageniustoenterintothespiritofapoetbutaristotlewasoutofallpatiencewiththeaccountigavehimofscotusandramusasipresentedthemtohimandheaskedthemwhethertherestofthetribewereasgreatduncesasthemselvesthereishoweveradifferencebetweenthemforwhereashegelisthinkingofallthemindsofmenasonemindwhichdevelopesthestagesoftheideaindifferentcountriesoratdifferenttimesinthesamecountrywithplatothesegradationsareregardedonlyasanorderofthoughtorideasthehistoryofthehumanmindhadnotyetdawneduponhimmanycriticismsmaybemadeonplatostheoryofeducationwhileinsomerespectsheunavoidablyfallsshortofmodernthinkersinothersheisinadvanceofthemheisopposedtothemodesofeducationwhichprevailedinhisowntimebuthecanhardlybesaidtohavediscoverednewoneshedoesnotseethateducationisrelativetothecharactersofindividualsheonlydesirestoimpressthesameformofthestateonthemindsofallhehasnosufficientideaoftheeffectofliteratureontheformationofthemindandgreatlyexaggeratesthatofmathematicshisaimisaboveallthingstotrainthereasoningfacultiestoimplantinthemindthespiritandpowerofabstractiontoexplainanddefinegeneralnotionsandifpossibletoconnectthemnowonderthatinthevacancyofactualknowledgehisfollowersandattimesevenhehimselfshouldhavefallenawayfromthedoctrineofideasandhavereturnedtothatbranchofknowledgeinwhichalonetherelationoftheoneandmanycanbetrulyseenthescienceofnumberinhisviewsbothofteachingandtraininghemightbestyledinmodernlanguageadoctrinaireafterthespartanfashionhewouldhavehiscitizenscastinonemouldhedoesnotseemtoconsiderthatsomedegreeoffreedomalittlewholesomeneglectisnecessarytostrengthenanddevelopethecharacterandtogiveplaytotheindividualnaturehiscitizenswouldnothaveacquiredthatknowledgewhichinthevisionoferissupposedtobegainedbythepilgrimsfromtheirexperienceofevilontheotherhandplatoisfarinadvanceofmodernphilosophersandtheologianswhenheteachesthateducationistobecontinuedthroughlifeandwillbeginagaininanotherhewouldneveralloweducationofsomekindtoceasealthoughhewasawarethattheproverbialsayingofsolonigrowoldlearningmanythingscannotbeappliedliterallyhimselfravishedwiththecontemplationoftheideaofgoodanddelightinginsolidgeometryrephehasnodifficultyinimaginingthatalifetimemightbepassedhappilyinsuchpursuitswewhoknowhowmanymoremenofbusinessthereareintheworldthanrealstudentsorthinkersarenotequallysanguinetheeducationwhichheproposesforhiscitizensisreallytheideallifeofthephilosopherormanofgeniusinterruptedbutonlyforatimebypracticaldutiesalifenotforthemanybutforthefewyetthethoughtofplatomaynotbewhollyincapableofapplicationtoourowntimesevenifregardedasanidealwhichcanneverberealizeditmayhaveagreateffectinelevatingthecharactersofmankindandraisingthemabovetheroutineoftheirordinaryoccupationorprofessionitisthebestformunderwhichwecanconceivethewholeoflifeneverthelesstheideaofplatoisnoteasilyputintopracticefortheeducationofafterlifeisnecessarilytheeducationwhicheachonegiveshimselfmenandwomencannotbebroughttogetherinschoolsorcollegesatfortyorfiftyyearsofageandiftheycouldtheresultwouldbedisappointingthedestinationofmostmeniswhatplatowouldcallthedenforthewholeoflifeandwiththattheyarecontentneitherhavetheyteachersoradviserswithwhomtheycantakecounselinriperyearsthereisnoschoolmasterabroadwhowilltellthemoftheirfaultsorinspirethemwiththehighersenseofdutyorwiththeambitionofatruesuccessinlifenosocrateswhowillconvictthemofignorancenochristorfollowerofchristwhowillreprovethemofsinhencetheyhaveadifficultyinreceivingthefirstelementofimprovementwhichisselfknowledgethehopesofyouthnolongerstirthemtheyratherwishtorestthantopursuehighobjectsafewonlywhohavecomeacrossgreatmenandwomenoreminentteachersofreligionandmoralityhavereceivedasecondlifefromthemandhavelightedacandlefromthefireoftheirgeniusthewantofenergyisoneofthemainreasonswhysofewpersonscontinuetoimproveinlateryearstheyhavenotthewillanddonotknowthewaytheynevertryanexperimentorlookupapointofinterestforthemselvestheymakenosacrificesforthesakeofknowledgetheirmindsliketheirbodiesatacertainagebecomefixedgeniushasbeendefinedasthepoweroftakingpainsbuthardlyanyonekeepsuphisinterestinknowledgethroughoutawholelifethetroublesofafamilythebusinessofmakingmoneythedemandsofaprofessiondestroytheelasticityofthemindthewaxentabletofthememorywhichwasoncecapableofreceivingtruethoughtsandclearimpressionsbecomeshardandcrowdedthereisnotroomfortheaccumulationsofalonglifetheaetthestudentasyearsadvancerathermakesanexchangeofknowledgethanaddstohisstoresthereisnopressingnecessitytolearnthestockofclassicsorhistoryornaturalsciencewhichwasenoughforamanattwentyfiveisenoughforhimatfiftyneitherisiteasytogiveadefiniteanswertoanyonewhoaskshowheistoimproveforselfeducationconsistsinathousandthingscommonplaceinthemselvesinaddingtowhatwearebynaturesomethingofwhatwearenotinlearningtoseeourselvesasothersseeusinjudgingnotbyopinionbutbytheevidenceoffactsinseekingoutthesocietyofsuperiormindsinastudyoflivesandwritingsofgreatmeninobservationoftheworldandcharacterinreceivingkindlythenaturalinfluenceofdifferenttimesoflifeinanyactorthoughtwhichisraisedabovethepracticeoropinionsofmankindinthepursuitofsomenewororiginalenquiryinanyeffortofmindwhichcallsforthsomelatentpowerifanyoneisdesirousofcarryingoutindetailtheplatoniceducationofafterlifesomesuchcounselsasthefollowingmaybeofferedtohimthatheshallchoosethebranchofknowledgetowhichhisownmindmostdistinctlyinclinesandinwhichhetakesthegreatestdelighteitheronewhichseemstoconnectwithhisowndailyemploymentorperhapsfurnishesthegreatestcontrasttoithemaystudyfromthespeculativesidetheprofessionorbusinessinwhichheispracticallyengagedhemaymakehomerdanteshakespeareplatobaconthefriendsandcompanionsofhislifehemayfindopportunitiesofhearingthelivingvoiceofagreatteacherhemayselectforenquirysomepointofhistoryorsomeunexplainedphenomenonofnatureanhouradaypassedinsuchscientificorliterarypursuitswillfurnishasmanyfactsasthememorycanretainandwillgivehimapleasurenottoberepentedoftimaeusonlylethimbewareofbeingtheslaveofcrotchetsorofrunningafterawillothewispinhisignoranceorinhisvanityofattributingtohimselfthegiftsofapoetorassumingtheairofaphilosopherheshouldknowthelimitsofhisownpowersbettertobuildupthemindbyslowadditionstocreeponquietlyfromonethingtoanothertogaininsensiblynewpowersandnewinterestsinknowledgethantoformvastschemeswhichareneverdestinedtoberealizedbutperhapsasplatowouldsaythisispartofanothersubjecttimthoughwemayalsodefendourdigressionbyhisexampletheaetweremarkwithsurprisethattheprogressofnationsorthenaturalgrowthofinstitutionswhichfillmoderntreatisesonpoliticalphilosophyseemhardlyevertohaveattractedtheattentionofplatoandaristotletheancientswerefamiliarwiththemutabilityofhumanaffairstheycouldmoralizeovertheruinsofcitiesandthefallofempiresplatostatesmanandsulpiciuslettertocicerobythemfateandchanceweredeemedtoberealpowersalmostpersonsandtohavehadagreatshareinpoliticaleventsthewiserofthemlikethucydidesbelievedthatwhathadbeenwouldbeagainandthatatolerableideaofthefuturecouldbegatheredfromthepastalsotheyhaddreamsofagoldenagewhichexistedonceuponatimeandmightstillexistinsomeunknownlandormightreturnagainintheremotefuturebuttheregulargrowthofastateenlightenedbyexperienceprogressinginknowledgeimprovingintheartsofwhichthecitizenswereeducatedbythefulfilmentofpoliticaldutiesappearsnevertohavecomewithintherangeoftheirhopesandaspirationssuchastatehadneverbeenseenandthereforecouldnotbeconceivedbythemtheirexperiencearistotmetaphplatolawsledthemtoconcludethattherehadbeencyclesofcivilizationinwhichtheartshadbeendiscoveredandlostmanytimesoverandcitieshadbeenoverthrownandrebuiltagainandagainanddelugesandvolcanoesandothernaturalconvulsionshadalteredthefaceoftheearthtraditiontoldthemofmanydestructionsofmankindandofthepreservationofaremnanttheworldbeganagainafteradelugeandwasreconstructedoutofthefragmentsofitselfalsotheywereacquaintedwithempiresofunknownantiquityliketheegyptianorassyrianbuttheyhadneverseenthemgrowandcouldnotimagineanymorethanwecanthestateofmanwhichprecededthemtheywerepuzzledandawestrickenbytheegyptianmonumentsofwhichtheformsasplatosaysnotinafigurebutliterallyweretenthousandyearsoldlawsandtheycontrastedtheantiquityofegyptwiththeirownshortmemoriestheearlylegendsofhellashavenorealconnectionwiththelaterhistorytheyareatadistanceandtheintermediateregionisconcealedfromviewthereisnoroadorpathwhichleadsfromonetotheotheratthebeginningofgreekhistoryinthevestibuleofthetempleisseenstandingfirstofallthefigureofthelegislatorhimselftheinterpreterandservantofthegodthefundamentallawswhichhegivesarenotsupposedtochangewithtimeandcircumstancesthesalvationofthestateisheldrathertodependontheinviolablemaintenanceofthemtheyweresanctionedbytheauthorityofheavenanditwasdeemedimpietytoalterthemthedesiretomaintainthemunalteredseemstobetheoriginofwhatatfirstsightisverysurprisingtoustheintolerantzealofplatoagainstinnovatorsinreligionorpoliticslawsalthoughwithahappyinconsistencyheisalsowillingthatthelawsofothercountriesshouldbestudiedandimprovementsinlegislationprivatelycommunicatedtothenocturnalcouncillawstheadditionswhichweremadetotheminlateragesinordertomeettheincreasingcomplexityofaffairswerestillascribedbyafictiontotheoriginallegislatorandthewordsofsuchenactmentsatathensweredisputedoverasiftheyhadbeenthewordsofsolonhimselfplatohopestopreserveinalatergenerationthemindofthelegislatorhewouldhavehiscitizensremainwithinthelineswhichhehaslaiddownforthemhewouldnotharassthemwithminuteregulationshewouldhaveallowedsomechangesinthelawsbutnotchangeswhichwouldaffectthefundamentalinstitutionsofthestatesuchforexampleaswouldconvertanaristocracyintoatimocracyoratimocracyintoapopularformofgovernmentpassingfromspeculationstofactsweobservethatprogresshasbeentheexceptionratherthanthelawofhumanhistoryandthereforewearenotsurprisedtofindthattheideaofprogressisofmodernratherthanofancientdateandliketheideaofaphilosophyofhistoryisnotmorethanacenturyortwoolditseemstohavearisenoutoftheimpressionleftonthehumanmindbythegrowthoftheromanempireandofthechristianchurchandtobeduetothepoliticalandsocialimprovementswhichtheyintroducedintotheworldandstillmoreinourowncenturytotheidealismofthefirstfrenchrevolutionandthetriumphofamericanindependenceandinayetgreaterdegreetothevastmaterialprosperityandgrowthofpopulationinenglandandhercoloniesandinamericaitisalsotobeascribedinameasuretothegreaterstudyofthephilosophyofhistorytheoptimisttemperamentofsomegreatwritershasassistedthecreationofitwhiletheoppositecharacterhasledafewtoregardthefutureoftheworldasdarkthespectatorofalltimeandofallexistenceseesmoreoftheincreasingpurposewhichthroughtheagesranthanformerlybuttotheinhabitantofasmallstateofhellasthevisionwasnecessarilylimitedlikethevalleyinwhichhedwelttherewasnoremotepastonwhichhiseyecouldrestnoranyfuturefromwhichtheveilwaspartlyliftedupbytheanalogyofhistorythenarrownessofviewwhichtoourselvesappearssosingularwastohimnaturalifnotunavoidablefortherelationoftherepublictothestatesmanandthelawsandthetwootherworksofplatowhichdirectlytreatofpoliticsseetheintroductionstothetwolatterafewgeneralpointsofcomparisonmaybetoucheduponinthisplaceandfirstofthelawstherepublicthoughprobablywrittenatintervalsyetspeakinggenerallyandjudgingbytheindicationsofthoughtandstylemaybereasonablyascribedtothemiddleperiodofplatoslifethelawsarecertainlytheworkofhisdecliningyearsandsomeportionsofthematanyrateseemtohavebeenwritteninextremeoldagetherepublicisfullofhopeandaspirationthelawsbearthestampoffailureanddisappointmenttheoneisafinishedworkwhichreceivedthelasttouchesoftheauthortheotherisimperfectlyexecutedandapparentlyunfinishedtheonehasthegraceandbeautyofyouththeotherhaslostthepoeticalformbuthasmoreoftheseverityandknowledgeoflifewhichischaracteristicofoldagethemostconspicuousdefectofthelawsisthefailureofdramaticpowerwhereastherepublicisfullofstrikingcontrastsofideasandoppositionsofcharacterthelawsmaybesaidtohavemorethenatureofasermontherepublicofapoemtheoneismorereligioustheothermoreintellectualmanytheoriesofplatosuchasthedoctrineofideasthegovernmentoftheworldbyphilosophersarenotfoundinthelawstheimmortalityofthesoulisfirstmentionedinxiithepersonofsocrateshasaltogetherdisappearedthecommunityofwomenandchildrenisrenouncedtheinstitutionofcommonorpublicmealsforwomenlawsisforthefirsttimeintroducedarpolthereremainsinthelawstheoldenmitytothepoetswhoareironicallysalutedinhighflowntermsandatthesametimeareperemptorilyorderedoutofthecityiftheyarenotwillingtosubmittheirpoemstothecensorshipofthemagistratesrepthoughtheworkisinmostrespectsinferiorthereareafewpassagesinthelawssuchasthehonourduetothesoultheevilsoflicentiousorunnaturallovethewholeofbookxreligionthedishonestyofretailtradeandbequestswhichcomemorehometousandcontainmoreofwhatmaybetermedthemodernelementinplatothanalmostanythingintherepublictherelationofthetwoworkstooneanotherisverywellgivenbyaristotleinthepoliticsfromthesideofthelawsthesameornearlythesameobjectionsapplytoplatoslaterworkthelawsandthereforewehadbetterexaminebrieflytheconstitutionwhichisthereindescribedintherepublicsocrateshasdefinitelysettledinallafewquestionsonlysuchasthecommunityofwomenandchildrenthecommunityofpropertyandtheconstitutionofthestatethepopulationisdividedintotwoclassesoneofhusbandmenandtheotherofwarriorsfromthislatteristakenathirdclassofcounsellorsandrulersofthestatebutsocrateshasnotdeterminedwhetherthehusbandmenandartistsaretohaveashareinthegovernmentandwhethertheytooaretocarryarmsandshareinmilitaryserviceornothecertainlythinksthatthewomenoughttoshareintheeducationoftheguardiansandtofightbytheirsidetheremainderoftheworkisfilledupwithdigressionsforeigntothemainsubjectandwithdiscussionsabouttheeducationoftheguardiansinthelawsthereishardlyanythingbutlawsnotmuchissaidabouttheconstitutionthiswhichhehadintendedtomakemoreoftheordinarytypehegraduallybringsroundtotheotheroridealformforwiththeexceptionofthecommunityofwomenandpropertyhesupposeseverythingtobethesameinbothstatesthereistobethesameeducationthecitizensofbotharetolivefreefromservileoccupationsandtherearetobecommonmealsinboththeonlydifferenceisthatinthelawsthecommonmealsareextendedtowomenandthewarriorsnumberaboutbutintherepubliconlybyplatointhelawsbookvfromthesideoftherepublicthefirstandhighestformofthestateandofthegovernmentandofthelawisthatinwhichthereprevailsmostwidelytheancientsayingthatfriendshaveallthingsincommonwhetherthereisnoworeverwillbethiscommunionofwomenandchildrenandofpropertyinwhichtheprivateandindividualisaltogetherbanishedfromlifeandthingswhicharebynatureprivatesuchaseyesandearsandhandshavebecomecommonandallmenexpresspraiseandblameandfeeljoyandsorrowonthesameoccasionsandthelawsunitethecitytotheutmostwhetherallthisispossibleornotisaythatnomanactinguponanyotherprinciplewilleverconstituteastatemoreexaltedinvirtueortruerorbetterthanthissuchastatewhetherinhabitedbygodsorsonsofgodswillmakethemblessedwhodwellthereinandthereforetothiswearetolookforthepatternofthestateandtoclingtothisandasfaraspossibletoseekforonewhichislikethisthestatewhichwehavenowinhandwhencreatedwillbenearesttoimmortalityandunityinthenextdegreeandafterthatbythegraceofgodwewillcompletethethirdoneandwewillbeginbyspeakingofthenatureandoriginofthesecondthecomparativelyshortworkcalledthestatesmanorpoliticusinitsstyleandmannerismoreakintothelawswhileinitsidealismitratherresemblestherepublicasfaraswecanjudgebyvariousindicationsoflanguageandthoughtitmustbelaterthantheoneandofcourseearlierthantheotherinboththerepublicandstatesmanacloseconnectionismaintainedbetweenpoliticsanddialecticinthestatesmanenquiriesintotheprinciplesofmethodareinterspersedwithdiscussionsaboutpoliticsthecomparativeadvantagesoftheruleoflawandofapersonareconsideredandthedecisiongiveninfavourofapersonaristpolbutmuchmaybesaidontheothersidenoristheoppositionnecessaryforapersonmayrulebylawandlawmaybesoappliedastobethelivingvoiceofthelegislatorasintherepublicthereisamythdescribinghowevernotafuturebutaformerexistenceofmankindthequestionisaskedwhetherthestateofinnocencewhichisdescribedinthemythorastatelikeourownwhichpossessesartandscienceanddistinguishesgoodfromevilisthepreferableconditionofmantothisquestionofthecomparativehappinessofcivilizedandprimitivelifewhichwassooftendiscussedinthelastcenturyandinourownnoanswerisgiventhestatesmanthoughlessperfectinstylethantherepublicandoffarlessrangemayjustlyberegardedasoneofthegreatestofplatosdialoguesothersaswellasplatohavechosenanidealrepublictobethevehicleofthoughtswhichtheycouldnotdefinitelyexpressorwhichwentbeyondtheirownagetheclassicalwritingwhichapproachesmostnearlytotherepublicofplatoisthederepublicaofcicerobutneitherinthisnorinanyotherofhisdialoguesdoesherivaltheartofplatothemannersareclumsyandinferiorthehandoftherhetoricianisapparentateveryturnyetnoblesentimentsareconstantlyrecurringthetruenoteofromanpatriotismweromansareagreatpeopleresoundsthroughthewholeworklikesocratesciceroturnsawayfromthephenomenaoftheheavenstocivilandpoliticallifehewouldrathernotdiscussthetwosunsofwhichallromewastalkingwhenhecanconverseaboutthetwonationsinonewhichhaddividedromeeversincethedaysofthegracchilikesocratesagainspeakinginthepersonofscipioheisafraidlestheshouldassumetoomuchthecharacterofateacherratherthanofanequalwhoisdiscussingamongfriendsthetwosidesofaquestionhewouldconfinethetermskingorstatetotheruleofreasonandjusticeandhewillnotconcedethattitleeithertoademocracyortoamonarchybutundertheruleofreasonandjusticeheiswillingtoincludethenaturalsuperiorrulingoverthenaturalinferiorwhichhecomparestothesoulrulingoverthebodyheprefersamixtureofformsofgovernmenttoanysingleonethetwoportraitsofthejustandtheunjustwhichoccurinthesecondbookoftherepublicaretransferredtothestatephilusoneoftheinterlocutorsmaintainingagainsthiswillthenecessityofinjusticeasaprincipleofgovernmentwhiletheotherlaeliussupportstheoppositethesishisviewsoflanguageandnumberarederivedfromplatolikehimhedenouncesthedramahealsodeclaresthatifhislifeweretobetwiceaslonghewouldhavenotimetoreadthelyricpoetsthepictureofdemocracyistranslatedbyhimwordforwordthoughhehadhardlyshownhimselfabletocarrythejestofplatoheconvertsintoastatelysentencethehumorousfancyabouttheanimalswhoaresoimbuedwiththespiritofdemocracythattheymakethepassersbygetoutoftheirwayhisdescriptionofthetyrantisimitatedfromplatobutisfarinferiorthesecondbookishistoricalandclaimsfortheromanconstitutionwhichistohimtheidealafoundationoffactsuchasplatoprobablyintendedtohavegiventotherepublicinthecritiashismostremarkableimitationofplatoistheadaptationofthevisionoferwhichisconvertedbycicerointothesomniumscipionishehasromanizedthemythoftherepublicaddinganargumentfortheimmortalityofthesoultakenfromthephaedrusandsomeothertouchesderivedfromthephaedoandthetimaeusthoughabeautifultaleandcontainingsplendidpassagesthesomniumscipionisisveryinferiortothevisionoferitisonlyadreamandhardlyallowsthereadertosupposethatthewriterbelievesinhisowncreationwhetherhisdialogueswereframedonthemodelofthelostdialoguesofaristotleashehimselftellsusorofplatotowhichtheybearmanysuperficialresemblancesheisstilltheromanoratorheisnotconversingbutmakingspeechesandisneverabletomouldtheintractablelatintothegraceandeaseofthegreekplatonicdialoguebutifheisdefectiveinformmuchmoreisheinferiortothegreekinmatterhenowhereinhisphilosophicalwritingsleavesuponourmindstheimpressionofanoriginalthinkerplatosrepublichasbeensaidtobeachurchandnotastateandsuchanidealofacityintheheavenshasalwayshoveredoverthechristianworldandisembodiedinstaugustinesdecivitatedeiwhichissuggestedbythedecayandfalloftheromanempiremuchinthesamemannerinwhichwemayimaginetherepublicofplatotohavebeeninfluencedbythedeclineofgreekpoliticsinthewritersownagethedifferenceisthatinthetimeofplatothedegeneracythoughcertainwasgradualandinsensiblewhereasthetakingofromebythegothsstirredlikeanearthquaketheageofstaugustinemenwereinclinedtobelievethattheoverthrowofthecitywastobeascribedtotheangerfeltbytheoldromandeitiesattheneglectoftheirworshipstaugustinemaintainstheoppositethesishearguesthatthedestructionoftheromanempireisduenottotheriseofchristianitybuttothevicesofpaganismhewandersoverromanhistoryandovergreekphilosophyandmythologyandfindseverywherecrimeimpietyandfalsehoodhecomparestheworstpartsofthegentilereligionswiththebestelementsofthefaithofchristheshowsnothingofthespiritwhichledothersoftheearlychristianfatherstorecognizeinthewritingsofthegreekphilosophersthepowerofthedivinetruthhetracestheparallelofthekingdomofgodthatisthehistoryofthejewscontainedintheirscripturesandofthekingdomsoftheworldwhicharefoundingentilewritersandpursuesthembothintoanidealfutureitneedhardlyberemarkedthathisusebothofgreekandofromanhistoriansandofthesacredwritingsofthejewsiswhollyuncriticaltheheathenmythologythesybillineoraclesthemythsofplatothedreamsofneoplatonistsareequallyregardedbyhimasmatteroffacthemustbeacknowledgedtobeastrictlypolemicalorcontroversialwriterwhomakesthebestofeverythingononesideandtheworstofeverythingontheotherhehasnosympathywiththeoldromanlifeasplatohaswithgreeklifenorhasheanyideaoftheecclesiasticalkingdomwhichwastoariseoutoftheruinsoftheromanempireheisnotblindtothedefectsofthechristianchurchandlooksforwardtoatimewhenchristianandpaganshallbealikebroughtbeforethejudgmentseatandthetruecityofgodshallappeartheworkofstaugustineisacuriousrepertoryofantiquarianlearningandquotationsdeeplypenetratedwithchristianethicsbutshowinglittlepowerofreasoningandaslenderknowledgeofthegreekliteratureandlanguagehewasagreatgeniusandanoblecharacteryethardlycapableoffeelingorunderstandinganythingexternaltohisowntheologyofalltheancientphilosophersheismostattractedbyplatothoughheisveryslightlyacquaintedwithhiswritingsheisinclinedtobelievethattheideaofcreationinthetimaeusisderivedfromthenarrativeingenesisandheisstrangelytakenwiththecoincidenceofplatossayingthatthephilosopheristheloverofgodandthewordsofthebookofexodusinwhichgodrevealshimselftomosesexodhedwellsatlengthonmiraclesperformedinhisowndayofwhichtheevidenceisregardedbyhimasirresistiblehespeaksinaveryinterestingmannerofthebeautyandutilityofnatureandofthehumanframewhichheconceivestoaffordaforetasteoftheheavenlystateandoftheresurrectionofthebodythebookisnotreallywhattomostpersonsthetitleofitwouldimplyandbelongstoanagewhichhaspassedawaybutitcontainsmanyfinepassagesandthoughtswhichareforalltimetheshorttreatisedemonarchiaofdanteisbyfarthemostremarkableofmediaevalidealsandbearstheimpressofthegreatgeniusinwhomitalyandthemiddleagesaresovividlyreflecteditisthevisionofanuniversalempirewhichissupposedtobethenaturalandnecessarygovernmentoftheworldhavingadivineauthoritydistinctfromthepapacyyetcoextensivewithititisnottheghostofthedeadromanempiresittingcrowneduponthegravethereofbutthelegitimateheirandsuccessorofitjustifiedbytheancientvirtuesoftheromansandthebeneficenceoftheirruletheirrighttobethegovernorsoftheworldisalsoconfirmedbythetestimonyofmiraclesandacknowledgedbystpaulwhenheappealedtocaesarandevenmoreemphaticallybychristhimselfwhocouldnothavemadeatonementforthesinsofmenifhehadnotbeencondemnedbyadivinelyauthorizedtribunalthenecessityfortheestablishmentofanuniversalempireisprovedpartlybyaprioriargumentssuchastheunityofgodandtheunityofthefamilyornationpartlybyperversionsofscriptureandhistorybyfalseanalogiesofnaturebymisappliedquotationsfromtheclassicsandbyoddscrapsandcommonplacesoflogicshowingafamiliarbutbynomeansexactknowledgeofaristotleofplatothereisnonebutamoreconvincingargumentstillisthemiserablestateoftheworldwhichhetouchinglydescribesheseesnohopeofhappinessorpeaceformankinduntilallnationsoftheeartharecomprehendedinasingleempirethewholetreatiseshowshowdeeplytheideaoftheromanempirewasfixedinthemindsofhiscontemporariesnotmuchargumentwasneededtomaintainthetruthofatheorywhichtohisowncontemporariesseemedsonaturalandcongenialhespeaksorratherpreachesfromthepointofviewnotoftheecclesiasticbutofthelaymanalthoughasagoodcatholicheiswillingtoacknowledgethatincertainrespectstheempiremustsubmittothechurchthebeginningandendofallhisnoblereflectionsandofhisargumentsgoodandbadistheaspirationthatinthislittleplotofearthbelongingtomortalmanlifemaypassinfreedomandpeacesoinextricablyishisvisionofthefutureboundupwiththebeliefsandcircumstancesofhisownagetheutopiaofsirthomasmoreisasurprisingmonumentofhisgeniusandshowsareachofthoughtfarbeyondhiscontemporariesthebookwaswrittenbyhimattheageofaboutorandisfullofthegeneroussentimentsofyouthhebringsthelightofplatotobearuponthemiserablestateofhisowncountrylivingnotlongafterthewarsoftherosesandinthedregsofthecatholicchurchinenglandheisindignantatthecorruptionoftheclergyattheluxuryofthenobilityandgentryatthesufferingsofthepooratthecalamitiescausedbywartotheeyeofmorethewholeworldwasindissolutionanddecayandsidebysidewiththemiseryandoppressionwhichhehasdescribedinthefirstbookoftheutopiaheplacesinthesecondbooktheidealstatewhichbythehelpofplatohehadconstructedthetimeswerefullofstirandintellectualinterestthedistantmurmurofthereformationwasbeginningtobeheardtomindslikemoresgreekliteraturewasarevelationtherehadarisenanartofinterpretationandthenewtestamentwasbeginningtobeunderstoodasithadneverbeenbeforeandhasnotoftenbeensinceinitsnaturalsensethelifetheredepictedappearedtohimwhollyunlikethatofchristiancommonwealthsinwhichhesawnothingbutacertainconspiracyofrichmenprocuringtheirowncommoditiesunderthenameandtitleofthecommonwealthhethoughtthatchristlikeplatoinstitutedallthingscommonforwhichreasonhetellsusthecitizensofutopiawerethemorewillingtoreceivehisdoctrineshowbeitithinkthiswasnosmallhelpandfurtheranceinthematterthattheyheardussaythatchristinstitutedamonghisallthingscommonandthatthesamecommunitydothyetremainintherightestchristiancommunitiesutopiathecommunityofpropertyisafixedideawithhimthoughheisawareoftheargumentswhichmaybeurgedontheothersidethesethingsisaywheniconsiderwithmyselfiholdwellwithplatoanddonothingmarvelthathewouldmakenolawsforthemthatrefusedthoselawswherebyallmenshouldhaveandenjoyequalportionsofrichesandcommoditiesforthewisemendideasilyforeseethistobetheoneandonlywaytothewealthofacommunityifequalityofallthingsshouldbebroughtinandestablishedutopiawewonderhowinthereignofhenryviiithoughveiledinanotherlanguageandpublishedinaforeigncountrysuchspeculationscouldhavebeenenduredheisgiftedwithfargreaterdramaticinventionthananyonewhosucceededhimwiththeexceptionofswiftintheartoffeigningheisaworthydiscipleofplatolikehimstartingfromasmallportionoffacthefoundshistalewithadmirableskillonafewlinesinthelatinnarrativeofthevoyagesofamerigovespucciheisverypreciseaboutdatesandfactsandhasthepowerofmakingusbelievethatthenarratorofthetalemusthavebeenaneyewitnesswearefairlypuzzledbyhismannerofmixinguprealandimaginarypersonshisboyjohnclementandpetergilescitizenofantwerpwithwhomhedisputesabouttheprecisewordswhicharesupposedtohavebeenusedbytheimaginaryportuguesetravellerraphaelhythlodayihavethemorecausesayshythlodaytofearthatmywordsshallnotbebelievedforthatiknowhowdifficultlyandhardlyimyselfwouldhavebelievedanothermantellingthesameifihadnotmyselfseenitwithmineowneyesoragainifyouhadbeenwithmeinutopiaandhadpresentlyseentheirfashionsandlawsasididwhichlivedtherefiveyearsandmoreandwouldneverhavecomethencebutonlytomakethenewlandknownhereetcmoregreatlyregretsthatheforgottoaskhythlodayinwhatpartoftheworldutopiaissituatedhewouldhavespentnosmallsumofmoneyratherthanitshouldhaveescapedhimandhebegspetergilestoseehythlodayorwritetohimandobtainananswertothequestionafterthiswearenotsurprisedtohearthataprofessorofdivinityperhapsalatefamousvicarofcroydoninsurreyasthetranslatorthinksisdesirousofbeingsentthitherasamissionarybythehighbishopyeaandthathemayhimselfbemadebishopofutopianothingdoubtingthathemustobtainthisbishopricwithsuitandhecounteththatagodlysuitwhichproceedethnotofthedesireofhonourorlucrebutonlyofagodlyzealthedesignmayhavefailedthroughthedisappearanceofhythlodayconcerningwhomwehaveveryuncertainnewsafterhisdeparturethereisnodoubthoweverthathehadtoldmoreandgilestheexactsituationoftheislandbutunfortunatelyatthesamemomentmoresattentionasheisremindedinaletterfromgileswasdrawnoffbyaservantandoneofthecompanyfromacoldcaughtonshipboardcoughedsoloudastopreventgilesfromhearingandthesecrethasperishedwithhimtothisdaytheplaceofutopiaremainsunknownthewordsofphaedrusosocratesyoucaneasilyinventegyptiansoranythingarerecalledtoourmindaswereadthislifelikefictionyetthegreatermeritoftheworkisnottheadmirableartbuttheoriginalityofthoughtmoreisasfreeasplatofromtheprejudicesofhisageandfarmoretoleranttheutopiansdonotallowhimwhobelievesnotintheimmortalityofthesoultoshareintheadministrationofthestatelawshowbeittheyputhimtonopunishmentbecausetheybepersuadedthatitisinnomanspowertobelievewhathelistandnomanistobeblamedforreasoninginsupportofhisownreligiononeofourcompanyinmypresencewassharplypunishedheassoonashewasbaptisedbeganagainstourwillswithmoreearnestaffectionthanwisdomtoreasonofchristsreligionandbegantowaxsohotinhismatterthathedidnotonlypreferourreligionbeforeallotherbutalsodiddespiseandcondemnallothercallingthemprofaneandthefollowersofthemwickedanddevilishandthechildrenofeverlastingdamnationwhenhehadthuslongreasonedthemattertheylaidholdonhimaccusedhimandcondemnedhimintoexilenotasadespiserofreligionbutasaseditiouspersonandaraiserupofdissensionamongthepeopleinthepublicservicesnoprayersbeusedbutsuchaseverymanmayboldlypronouncewithoutgivingoffencetoanysecthesayssignificantlytherebethatgiveworshiptoamanthatwasonceofexcellentvirtueoroffamousglorynotonlyasgodbutalsothechiefestandhighestgodbutthemostandthewisestpartrejectingallthesebelievethatthereisacertaingodlypowerunknownfarabovethecapacityandreachofmanswitdispersedthroughoutalltheworldnotinbignessbutinvirtueandpowerhimtheycallthefatherofalltohimalonetheyattributethebeginningstheincreasingstheproceedingsthechangesandtheendsofallthingsneithergivetheyanydivinehonourstoanyotherthanhimsofarwasmorefromsharingthepopularbeliefsofhistimeyetattheendheremindsusthathedoesnotinallrespectsagreewiththecustomsandopinionsoftheutopianswhichhedescribesandweshouldlethimhavethebenefitofthissavingclauseandnotrudelywithdrawtheveilbehindwhichhehasbeenpleasedtoconcealhimselfnorishelessinadvanceofpopularopinioninhispoliticalandmoralspeculationshewouldliketobringmilitarygloryintocontempthewouldsetallsortsofidlepeopletoprofitableoccupationincludinginthesameclasspriestswomennoblemengentlemenandsturdyandvaliantbeggarsthatthelabourofallmaybereducedtosixhoursadayhisdislikeofcapitalpunishmentandplansforthereformationofoffendershisdetestationofpriestsandlawyerscomparehissatiricalobservationtheytheutopianshavepriestsofexceedingholinessandthereforeveryfewhisremarkthatalthougheveryonemayhearofravenousdogsandwolvesandcruelmaneatersitisnoteasytofindstatesthatarewellandwiselygovernedarecuriouslyatvariancewiththenotionsofhisageandindeedwithhisownlifetherearemanypointsinwhichheshowsamodernfeelingandapropheticinsightlikeplatoheisasanitaryreformerhemaintainsthatcivilizedstateshavearighttothesoilofwastecountriesheisinclinedtotheopinionwhichplaceshappinessinvirtuouspleasuresbuthereinashethinksnotdisagreeingfromthoseotherphilosopherswhodefinevirtuetobealifeaccordingtonatureheextendstheideaofhappinesssoastoincludethehappinessofothersandhearguesingeniouslyallmenagreethatweoughttomakeothershappybutifothershowmuchmoreourselvesandstillhethinksthattheremaybeamoreexcellentwaybuttothisnomansreasoncanattainunlessheavenshouldinspirehimwithahighertruthhisceremoniesbeforemarriagehishumaneproposalthatwarshouldbecarriedonbyassassinatingtheleadersoftheenemymaybecomparedtosomeoftheparadoxesofplatohehasacharmingfancyliketheaffinitiesofgreeksandbarbariansinthetimaeusthattheutopianslearntthelanguageofthegreekswiththemorereadinessbecausetheywereoriginallyofthesameracewiththemheispenetratedwiththespiritofplatoandquotesoradaptsmanythoughtsbothfromtherepublicandfromthetimaeushepreferspublicdutiestoprivateandissomewhatimpatientoftheimportunityofrelationshiscitizenshavenosilverorgoldoftheirownbutarereadyenoughtopaythemtotheirmercenariesthereisnothingofwhichheismorecontemptuousthantheloveofmoneygoldisusedforfettersofcriminalsanddiamondsandpearlsforchildrensnecklaceswhentheambassadorscamearrayedingoldandpeacocksfeatherstotheeyesofalltheutopiansexceptveryfewwhichhadbeeninothercountriesforsomereasonablecauseallthatgorgeousnessofapparelseemedshamefulandreproachfulinsomuchthattheymostreverentlysalutedthevilestandmostabjectofthemforlordspassingovertheambassadorsthemselveswithoutanyhonourjudgingthembytheirwearingofgoldenchainstobebondmenyoushouldhaveseenchildrenalsothathadcastawaytheirpearlsandpreciousstoneswhentheysawthelikestickingupontheambassadorscapsdigandpushtheirmothersunderthesidessayingthustothemlookthoughhewerealittlechildstillbutthemotheryeaandthatalsoingoodearnestpeacesonsaithsheithinkhebesomeoftheambassadorsfoolslikeplatoheisfullofsatiricalreflectionsongovernmentsandprincesonthestateoftheworldandofknowledgetheheroofhisdiscoursehythlodayisveryunwillingtobecomeaministerofstateconsideringthathewouldlosehisindependenceandhisadvicewouldneverbeheededcompareanexquisitepassageofwhichtheconclusionisasfollowsandverilyitisnaturallygivensuppressedandendedheridiculesthenewlogicofhistimetheutopianscouldneverbemadetounderstandthedoctrineofsecondintentionsfortheyhavenotdevisedoneofallthoserulesofrestrictionsamplificationsandsuppositionsverywittilyinventedinthesmalllogicalswhichhereourchildrenineveryplacedolearnfurthermoretheywereneveryetabletofindoutthesecondintentionsinsomuchthatnoneofthemallcouldeverseemanhimselfincommonastheycallhimthoughhebeasyouknowbiggerthanwaseveranygiantyeaandpointedtoofusevenwithourfingerheisverysevereonthesportsofthegentrytheutopianscounthuntingthelowestthevilestandthemostabjectpartofbutcheryhequotesthewordsoftherepublicinwhichthephilosopherisdescribedstandingoutofthewayunderawalluntilthedrivingstormofsleetandrainbeoverpastwhichadmitofasingularapplicationtomoresownfatealthoughwritingtwentyyearsbeforeabouttheyearhecanhardlybesupposedtohaveforeseenthisthereisnotouchofsatirewhichstrikesdeeperthanhisquietremarkthatthegreaterpartofthepreceptsofchristaremoreatvariancewiththelivesofordinarychristiansthanthediscourseofutopiaandyetthemostpartofthemismoredissidentfromthemannersoftheworldnowadaysthanmycommunicationwasbutpreachersslyandwilymenfollowingyourcounselasisupposebecausetheysawmenevilwillingtoframetheirmannerstochristsruletheyhavewrestedandwriedhisdoctrineandlikearuleofleadhaveappliedittomensmannersthatbysomemeansattheleastwaytheymightagreetogetherthenewatlantisisonlyafragmentandfarinferiorinmerittotheutopiatheworkisfullofingenuitybutwantingincreativefancyandbynomeansimpressesthereaderwithasenseofcredibilityinsomeplaceslordbaconischaracteristicallydifferentfromsirthomasmoreasforexampleintheexternalstatewhichheattributestothegovernorofsolomonshousewhosedressheminutelydescribeswhiletosirthomasmoresuchtrappingsappearsimpleridiculousyetafterthisprogrammeofdressbaconaddsthebeautifultraitthathehadalookasthoughhepitiedmenseveralthingsareborrowedbyhimfromthetimaeusbuthehasinjuredtheunityofstylebyaddingthoughtsandpassageswhicharetakenfromthehebrewscripturesthecityofthesunwrittenbycampanellaadominicanfriarseveralyearsafterthenewatlantisofbaconhasmanyresemblancestotherepublicofplatothecitizenshavewivesandchildrenincommontheirmarriagesareofthesametemporarysortandarearrangedbythemagistratesfromtimetotimetheydonothoweveradopthissystemoflotsbutbringtogetherthebestnaturesmaleandfemaleaccordingtophilosophicalrulestheinfantsuntiltwoyearsofagearebroughtupbytheirmothersinpublictemplesandsinceindividualsforthemostparteducatetheirchildrenbadlyatthebeginningoftheirthirdyeartheyarecommittedtothecareofthestateandaretaughtatfirstnotoutofbooksbutfrompaintingsofallkindswhichareemblazonedonthewallsofthecitythecityhassixinteriorcircuitsofwallsandanouterwallwhichistheseventhonthisouterwallarepaintedthefiguresoflegislatorsandphilosophersandoneachoftheinteriorwallsthesymbolsorformsofsomeoneofthesciencesaredelineatedthewomenareforthemostparttrainedlikethemeninwarlikeandotherexercisesbuttheyhavetwospecialoccupationsoftheirownafterabattletheyandtheboyssootheandrelievethewoundedwarriorsalsotheyencouragethemwithembracesandpleasantwordssomeelementsofthechristianorcatholicreligionarepreservedamongthemthelifeoftheapostlesisgreatlyadmiredbythispeoplebecausetheyhadallthingsincommonandtheshortprayerwhichjesuschristtaughtmenisusedintheirworshipitisadutyofthechiefmagistratestopardonsinsandthereforethewholepeoplemakesecretconfessionofthemtothemagistratesandtheytotheirchiefwhoisasortofrectormetaphysicusandbythismeansheiswellinformedofallthatisgoingoninthemindsofmenafterconfessionabsolutionisgrantedtothecitizenscollectivelybutnooneismentionedbynametherealsoexistsamongthemapracticeofperpetualprayerperformedbyasuccessionofpriestswhochangeeveryhourtheirreligionisaworshipofgodintrinitythatisofwisdomloveandpowerbutwithoutanydistinctionofpersonstheybeholdinthesunthereflectionofhisglorymeregravenimagestheyrejectrefusingtofallunderthetyrannyofidolatrymanydetailsaregivenabouttheircustomsofeatinganddrinkingabouttheirmodeofdressingtheiremploymentstheirwarscampanellalooksforwardtoanewmodeofeducationwhichistobeastudyofnatureandnotofaristotlehewouldnothavehiscitizenswastetheirtimeintheconsiderationofwhathecallsthedeadsignsofthingsheremarksthathewhoknowsonescienceonlydoesnotreallyknowthatoneanymorethantherestandinsistsstronglyonthenecessityofavarietyofknowledgemorescholarsareturnedoutinthecityofthesuninoneyearthanbycontemporarymethodsintenorfifteenheevidentlybelieveslikebaconthathenceforwardnaturalsciencewillplayagreatpartineducationahopewhichseemshardlytohavebeenrealizedeitherinourownorinanyformerageatanyratethefulfilmentofithasbeenlongdeferredthereisagooddealofingenuityandevenoriginalityinthisworkandamostenlightenedspiritpervadesitbutithaslittleornocharmofstyleandfallsveryfarshortofthenewatlantisofbaconandstillmoreoftheutopiaofsirthomasmoreitisfullofinconsistenciesandthoughborrowedfromplatoshowsbutasuperficialacquaintancewithhiswritingsitisaworksuchasonemightexpecttohavebeenwrittenbyaphilosopherandmanofgeniuswhowasalsoafriarandwhohadspenttwentysevenyearsofhislifeinaprisonoftheinquisitionthemostinterestingfeatureofthebookcommontoplatoandsirthomasmoreisthedeepfeelingwhichisshownbythewriterofthemiseryandignoranceprevailingamongthelowerclassesinhisowntimecampanellatakesnoteofaristotlesanswertoplatoscommunityofpropertythatinasocietywhereallthingsarecommonnoindividualwouldhaveanymotivetoworkaristpolherepliesthathiscitizensbeinghappyandcontentedinthemselvestheyarerequiredtoworkonlyfourhoursadaywillhavegreaterregardfortheirfellowsthanexistsamongmenatpresenthethinkslikeplatothatifheabolishesprivatefeelingsandinterestsagreatpublicfeelingwilltaketheirplaceotherwritingsonidealstatessuchastheoceanaofharringtoninwhichthelordarchonmeaningcromwellisdescribednotashewasbutasheoughttohavebeenortheargenisofbarclaywhichisanhistoricalallegoryofhisowntimearetoounlikeplatotobeworthmentioningmoreinterestingthaneitheroftheseandfarmoreplatonicinstyleandthoughtissirjohneliotsmonarchyofmaninwhichtheprisonerofthetowernolongerabletobeapoliticianinthelandofhisbirthturnsawayfrompoliticstoviewthatothercitywhichiswithinhimandfindsontheverythresholdofthegravethatthesecretofhumanhappinessisthemasteryofselfthechangeofgovernmentinthetimeoftheenglishcommonwealthsetmenthinkingaboutfirstprinciplesandgaverisetomanyworksofthisclassthegreatoriginalgeniusofswiftowesnothingtoplatonoristhereanytraceintheconversationorintheworksofdrjohnsonofanyacquaintancewithhiswritingsheprobablywouldhaverefutedplatowithoutreadinghiminthesamefashioninwhichhesupposedhimselftohaverefutedbishopberkeleystheoryofthenonexistenceofmatterifweexceptthesocalledenglishplatonistsorratherneoplatonistswhoneverunderstoodtheirmasterandthewritingsofcoleridgewhowastosomeextentakindredspiritplatohasleftnopermanentimpressiononenglishliteraturehumanlifeandconductareaffectedbyidealsinthesamewaythattheyareaffectedbytheexamplesofeminentmenneithertheonenortheotherareimmediatelyapplicabletopracticebutthereisavirtueflowingfromthemwhichtendstoraiseindividualsabovethecommonroutineofsocietyortradeandtoelevatestatesabovethemereinterestsofcommerceorthenecessitiesofselfdefenceliketheidealsofarttheyarepartlyframedbytheomissionofparticularstheyrequiretobeviewedatacertaindistanceandareapttofadeawayifweattempttoapproachthemtheygainanimaginarydistinctnesswhenembodiedinastateorinasystemofphilosophybuttheystillremainthevisionsofaworldunrealizedmorestrikingandobvioustotheordinarymindaretheexamplesofgreatmenwhohaveservedtheirowngenerationandarerememberedinanothereveninourownfamilycircletheremayhavebeensomeoneawomanorevenachildinwhosefacehasshoneforthagoodnessmorethanhumantheidealthenapproachesnearertousandwefondlyclingtoittheidealofthepastwhetherofourownpastlivesorofformerstatesofsocietyhasasingularfascinationforthemindsofmanytoolatewelearnthatsuchidealscannotberecalledthoughtherecollectionofthemmayhaveahumanizinginfluenceonothertimesbuttheabstractionsofphilosophyaretomostpersonscoldandvacanttheygivelightwithoutwarmththeyarelikethefullmoonintheheavenswhentherearenostarsappearingmencannotlivebythoughtalonetheworldofsenseisalwaysbreakinginuponthemtheyareforthemostpartconfinedtoacornerofearthandseebutalittlewaybeyondtheirownhomeorplaceofabodetheydonotliftuptheireyestothehillstheyarenotawakewhenthedawnappearsbutinplatowehavereachedaheightfromwhichamanmaylookintothedistanceandbeholdthefutureoftheworldandofphilosophytheidealofthestateandofthelifeofthephilosophertheidealofaneducationcontinuingthroughlifeandextendingequallytobothsexestheidealoftheunityandcorrelationofknowledgethefaithingoodandimmortalityarethevacantformsoflightonwhichplatoisseekingtofixtheeyeofmankindtwootheridealswhichneverappearedabovethehorizoningreekphilosophyfloatbeforethemindsofmeninourowndayoneseenmoreclearlythanformerlyasthougheachyearandeachgenerationbroughtusnearertosomegreatchangetheotheralmostinthesamedegreeretiringfromviewbehindthelawsofnatureasifoppressedbythembutstillremainingasilenthopeofweknownotwhathiddenintheheartofmanthefirstidealisthefutureofthehumanraceinthisworldthesecondthefutureoftheindividualinanotherthefirstisthemoreperfectrealizationofourownpresentlifethesecondtheabnegationofittheonelimitedbyexperiencetheothertranscendingitbothofthemhavebeenandarepowerfulmotivesofactionthereareafewinwhomtheyhavetakentheplaceofallearthlyintereststhehopeofafutureforthehumanraceatfirstsightseemstobethemoredisinterestedthehopeofindividualexistencethemoreegotisticalofthetwomotivesbutwhenmenhavelearnedtoresolvetheirhopeofafutureeitherforthemselvesorfortheworldintothewillofgodnotmywillbutthinethedifferencebetweenthemfallsawayandtheymaybeallowedtomakeeitherofthemthebasisoftheirlivesaccordingtotheirownindividualcharacterortemperamentthereisasmuchfaithinthewillingnesstoworkforanunseenfutureinthisworldasinanotherneitherisitinconceivablethatsomerarenaturemayfeelhisdutytoanothergenerationortoanothercenturyalmostasstronglyastohisownorthatlivingalwaysinthepresenceofgodhemayrealizeanotherworldasvividlyashedoesthisthegreatestofallidealsmayorrathermustbeconceivedbyusundersimilitudesderivedfromhumanqualitiesalthoughsometimeslikethejewishprophetswemaydashawaythesefiguresofspeechanddescribethenatureofgodonlyinnegativestheseagainbydegreesacquireapositivemeaningitwouldbewellifwhenmeditatingonthehighertruthseitherofphilosophyorreligionwesometimessubstitutedoneformofexpressionforanotherlestthroughthenecessitiesoflanguageweshouldbecometheslavesofmerewordsthereisathirdidealnotthesamebutakintothesewhichhasaplaceinthehomeandheartofeverybelieverinthereligionofchristandinwhichmenseemtofindanearerandmorefamiliartruththedivinemanthesonofmanthesaviourofmankindwhoisthefirstbornandheadofthewholefamilyinheavenandearthinwhomthedivineandhumanthatwhichiswithoutandthatwhichiswithintherangeofourearthlyfacultiesareindissolublyunitedneitheristhisdivineformofgoodnesswhollyseparablefromtheidealofthechristianchurchwhichissaidinthenewtestamenttobehisbodyoratvariancewiththoseotherimagesofgoodwhichplatosetsbeforeusweseehiminafigureonlyandoffiguresofspeechweselectbutafewandthosethesimplesttobetheexpressionofhimwebeholdhiminapicturebutheisnottherewegatherupthefragmentsofhisdiscoursesbutneitherdotheyrepresenthimashetrulywashisdwellingisneitherinheavennorearthbutintheheartofmanthisisthatimagewhichplatosawdimlyinthedistancewhichwhenexistingamongmenhecalledinthelanguageofhomerthelikenessofgodthelikenessofanaturewhichinallagesmenhavefelttobegreaterandbetterthanthemselvesandwhichinendlessformswhetherderivedfromscriptureornaturefromthewitnessofhistoryorfromthehumanheartregardedasapersonornotasapersonwithorwithoutpartsorpassionsexistinginspaceornotinspaceisandwillalwayscontinuetobetomankindtheideaofgoodtherepublicpersonsofthedialoguesocrateswhoisthenarratorglauconadeimantuspolemarchuscephalusthrasymachuscleitophonandotherswhoaremuteauditorsthesceneislaidinthehouseofcephalusatthepiraeusandthewholedialogueisnarratedbysocratesthedayafteritactuallytookplacetotimaeushermocratescritiasandanamelesspersonwhoareintroducedinthetimaeusbookiiwentdownyesterdaytothepiraeuswithglauconthesonofaristonthatimightofferupmyprayerstothegoddessbendisthethracianartemisandalsobecauseiwantedtoseeinwhatmannertheywouldcelebratethefestivalwhichwasanewthingiwasdelightedwiththeprocessionoftheinhabitantsbutthatofthethracianswasequallyifnotmorebeautifulwhenwehadfinishedourprayersandviewedthespectacleweturnedinthedirectionofthecityandatthatinstantpolemarchusthesonofcephaluschancedtocatchsightofusfromadistanceaswewerestartingonourwayhomeandtoldhisservanttorunandbiduswaitforhimtheservanttookholdofmebythecloakbehindandsaidpolemarchusdesiresyoutowaititurnedroundandaskedhimwherehismasterwasthereheissaidtheyouthcomingafteryouifyouwillonlywaitcertainlywewillsaidglauconandinafewminutespolemarchusappearedandwithhimadeimantusglauconsbrotherniceratusthesonofniciasandseveralotherswhohadbeenattheprocessionpolemarchussaidtomeiperceivesocratesthatyouandyourcompanionarealreadyonyourwaytothecityyouarenotfarwrongisaidbutdoyouseeherejoinedhowmanyweareofcourseandareyoustrongerthanalltheseforifnotyouwillhavetoremainwhereyouaremaytherenotbethealternativeisaidthatwemaypersuadeyoutoletusgobutcanyoupersuadeusifwerefusetolistentoyouhesaidcertainlynotrepliedglauconthenwearenotgoingtolistenofthatyoumaybeassuredadeimantusaddedhasnoonetoldyouofthetorchraceonhorsebackinhonourofthegoddesswhichwilltakeplaceintheeveningwithhorsesirepliedthatisanoveltywillhorsemencarrytorchesandpassthemonetoanotherduringtheraceyessaidpolemarchusandnotonlysobutafestivalwillbecelebratedatnightwhichyoucertainlyoughttoseeletusrisesoonaftersupperandseethisfestivaltherewillbeagatheringofyoungmenandwewillhaveagoodtalkstaythenanddonotbeperverseglauconsaidisupposesinceyouinsistthatwemustverygoodirepliedaccordinglywewentwithpolemarchustohishouseandtherewefoundhisbrotherslysiasandeuthydemusandwiththemthrasymachusthechalcedoniancharmantidesthepaeanianandcleitophonthesonofaristonymustheretoowascephalusthefatherofpolemarchuswhomihadnotseenforalongtimeandithoughthimverymuchagedhewasseatedonacushionedchairandhadagarlandonhisheadforhehadbeensacrificinginthecourtandthereweresomeotherchairsintheroomarrangedinasemicircleuponwhichwesatdownbyhimhesalutedmeeagerlyandthenhesaidyoudontcometoseemesocratesasoftenasyououghtifiwerestillabletogoandseeyouiwouldnotaskyoutocometomebutatmyageicanhardlygettothecityandthereforeyoushouldcomeoftenertothepiraeusforletmetellyouthatthemorethepleasuresofthebodyfadeawaythegreatertomeisthepleasureandcharmofconversationdonotthendenymyrequestbutmakeourhouseyourresortandkeepcompanywiththeseyoungmenweareoldfriendsandyouwillbequiteathomewithusirepliedthereisnothingwhichformypartilikebettercephalusthanconversingwithagedmenforiregardthemastravellerswhohavegoneajourneywhichitoomayhavetogoandofwhomioughttoenquirewhetherthewayissmoothandeasyorruggedanddifficultandthisisaquestionwhichishouldliketoaskofyouwhohavearrivedatthattimewhichthepoetscallthethresholdofoldageislifehardertowardstheendorwhatreportdoyougiveofitiwilltellyousocrateshesaidwhatmyownfeelingismenofmyageflocktogetherwearebirdsofafeatherastheoldproverbsaysandatourmeetingsthetaleofmyacquaintancecommonlyisicannoteaticannotdrinkthepleasuresofyouthandlovearefledawaytherewasagoodtimeoncebutnowthatisgoneandlifeisnolongerlifesomecomplainoftheslightswhichareputuponthembyrelationsandtheywilltellyousadlyofhowmanyevilstheiroldageisthecausebuttomesocratesthesecomplainersseemtoblamethatwhichisnotreallyinfaultforifoldagewerethecauseitoobeingoldandeveryotheroldmanwouldhavefeltastheydobutthisisnotmyownexperiencenorthatofotherswhomihaveknownhowwelliremembertheagedpoetsophocleswheninanswertothequestionhowdoeslovesuitwithagesophoclesareyoustillthemanyouwerepeaceherepliedmostgladlyhaveiescapedthethingofwhichyouspeakifeelasifihadescapedfromamadandfuriousmasterhiswordshaveoftenoccurredtomymindsinceandtheyseemasgoodtomenowasatthetimewhenheutteredthemforcertainlyoldagehasagreatsenseofcalmandfreedomwhenthepassionsrelaxtheirholdthenassophoclessayswearefreedfromthegraspnotofonemadmasteronlybutofmanythetruthissocratesthattheseregretsandalsothecomplaintsaboutrelationsaretobeattributedtothesamecausewhichisnotoldagebutmenscharactersandtempersforhewhoisofacalmandhappynaturewillhardlyfeelthepressureofagebuttohimwhoisofanoppositedispositionyouthandageareequallyaburdenilistenedinadmirationandwantingtodrawhimoutthathemightgoonyescephalusisaidbutirathersuspectthatpeopleingeneralarenotconvincedbyyouwhenyouspeakthustheythinkthatoldagesitslightlyuponyounotbecauseofyourhappydispositionbutbecauseyouarerichandwealthiswellknowntobeagreatcomforteryouarerightherepliedtheyarenotconvincedandthereissomethinginwhattheysaynothoweversomuchastheyimagineimightanswerthemasthemistoclesansweredtheseriphianwhowasabusinghimandsayingthathewasfamousnotforhisownmeritsbutbecausehewasanathenianifyouhadbeenanativeofmycountryoriofyoursneitherofuswouldhavebeenfamousandtothosewhoarenotrichandareimpatientofoldagethesamereplymaybemadefortothegoodpoormanoldagecannotbealightburdennorcanabadrichmaneverhavepeacewithhimselfmayiaskcephaluswhetheryourfortunewasforthemostpartinheritedoracquiredbyyouacquiredsocratesdoyouwanttoknowhowmuchiacquiredintheartofmakingmoneyihavebeenmidwaybetweenmyfatherandgrandfatherformygrandfatherwhosenameibeardoubledandtrebledthevalueofhispatrimonythatwhichheinheritedbeingmuchwhatipossessnowbutmyfatherlysaniasreducedthepropertybelowwhatitisatpresentandishallbesatisfiedifileavetothesemysonsnotlessbutalittlemorethanireceivedthatwaswhyiaskedyouthequestionirepliedbecauseiseethatyouareindifferentaboutmoneywhichisacharacteristicratherofthosewhohaveinheritedtheirfortunesthanofthosewhohaveacquiredthemthemakersoffortuneshaveasecondloveofmoneyasacreationoftheirownresemblingtheaffectionofauthorsfortheirownpoemsorofparentsfortheirchildrenbesidesthatnaturalloveofitforthesakeofuseandprofitwhichiscommontothemandallmenandhencetheyareverybadcompanyfortheycantalkaboutnothingbutthepraisesofwealththatistruehesaidyesthatisverytruebutmayiaskanotherquestionwhatdoyouconsidertobethegreatestblessingwhichyouhavereapedfromyourwealthonehesaidofwhichicouldnotexpecteasilytoconvinceothersforletmetellyousocratesthatwhenamanthinkshimselftobeneardeathfearsandcaresenterintohismindwhichheneverhadbeforethetalesofaworldbelowandthepunishmentwhichisexactedthereofdeedsdoneherewereoncealaughingmattertohimbutnowheistormentedwiththethoughtthattheymaybetrueeitherfromtheweaknessofageorbecauseheisnowdrawingnearertothatotherplacehehasaclearerviewofthesethingssuspicionsandalarmscrowdthicklyuponhimandhebeginstoreflectandconsiderwhatwrongshehasdonetoothersandwhenhefindsthatthesumofhistransgressionsisgreathewillmanyatimelikeachildstartupinhissleepforfearandheisfilledwithdarkforebodingsbuttohimwhoisconsciousofnosinsweethopeaspindarcharminglysaysisthekindnurseofhisagehopehesayscherishesthesoulofhimwholivesinjusticeandholinessandisthenurseofhisageandthecompanionofhisjourneyhopewhichismightiesttoswaytherestlesssoulofmanhowadmirablearehiswordsandthegreatblessingofrichesidonotsaytoeverymanbuttoagoodmanisthathehashadnooccasiontodeceiveortodefraudotherseitherintentionallyorunintentionallyandwhenhedepartstotheworldbelowheisnotinanyapprehensionaboutofferingsduetothegodsordebtswhichheowestomennowtothispeaceofmindthepossessionofwealthgreatlycontributesandthereforeisaythatsettingonethingagainstanotherofthemanyadvantageswhichwealthhastogivetoamanofsensethisisinmyopinionthegreatestwellsaidcephalusirepliedbutasconcerningjusticewhatisittospeakthetruthandtopayyourdebtsnomorethanthisandeventothisaretherenotexceptionssupposethatafriendwheninhisrightmindhasdepositedarmswithmeandheasksforthemwhenheisnotinhisrightmindoughtitogivethembacktohimnoonewouldsaythatioughtorthatishouldberightindoingsoanymorethantheywouldsaythatioughtalwaystospeakthetruthtoonewhoisinhisconditionyouarequiterightherepliedbutthenisaidspeakingthetruthandpayingyourdebtsisnotacorrectdefinitionofjusticequitecorrectsocratesifsimonidesistobebelievedsaidpolemarchusinterposingifearsaidcephalusthatimustgonowforihavetolookafterthesacrificesandihandovertheargumenttopolemarchusandthecompanyisnotpolemarchusyourheirisaidtobesureheansweredandwentawaylaughingtothesacrificestellmethenothouheiroftheargumentwhatdidsimonidessayandaccordingtoyoutrulysayaboutjusticehesaidthattherepaymentofadebtisjustandinsayingsoheappearstometoberightishouldbesorrytodoubtthewordofsuchawiseandinspiredmanbuthismeaningthoughprobablycleartoyouisthereverseofcleartomeforhecertainlydoesnotmeanaswewerejustnowsayingthatioughttoreturnadepositofarmsorofanythingelsetoonewhoasksforitwhenheisnotinhisrightsensesandyetadepositcannotbedeniedtobeadebttruethenwhenthepersonwhoasksmeisnotinhisrightmindiambynomeanstomakethereturncertainlynotwhensimonidessaidthattherepaymentofadebtwasjusticehedidnotmeantoincludethatcasecertainlynotforhethinksthatafriendoughtalwaystodogoodtoafriendandneverevilyoumeanthatthereturnofadepositofgoldwhichistotheinjuryofthereceiverifthetwopartiesarefriendsisnottherepaymentofadebtthatiswhatyouwouldimaginehimtosayyesandareenemiesalsotoreceivewhatweowetothemtobesurehesaidtheyaretoreceivewhatweowethemandanenemyasitakeitowestoanenemythatwhichisdueorpropertohimthatistosayevilsimonidesthenafterthemannerofpoetswouldseemtohavespokendarklyofthenatureofjusticeforhereallymeanttosaythatjusticeisthegivingtoeachmanwhatispropertohimandthishetermedadebtthatmusthavebeenhismeaninghesaidbyheavenirepliedandifweaskedhimwhatdueorproperthingisgivenbymedicineandtowhomwhatanswerdoyouthinkthathewouldmaketoushewouldsurelyreplythatmedicinegivesdrugsandmeatanddrinktohumanbodiesandwhatdueorproperthingisgivenbycookeryandtowhatseasoningtofoodandwhatisthatwhichjusticegivesandtowhomifsocrateswearetobeguidedatallbytheanalogyoftheprecedinginstancesthenjusticeistheartwhichgivesgoodtofriendsandeviltoenemiesthatishismeaningthenithinksoandwhoisbestabletodogoodtohisfriendsandeviltohisenemiesintimeofsicknessthephysicianorwhentheyareonavoyageamidtheperilsoftheseathepilotandinwhatsortofactionsorwithaviewtowhatresultisthejustmanmostabletodoharmtohisenemyandgoodtohisfriendingoingtowaragainsttheoneandinmakingallianceswiththeotherbutwhenamaniswellmydearpolemarchusthereisnoneedofaphysiciannoandhewhoisnotonavoyagehasnoneedofapilotnothenintimeofpeacejusticewillbeofnouseiamveryfarfromthinkingsoyouthinkthatjusticemaybeofuseinpeaceaswellasinwaryeslikehusbandryfortheacquisitionofcornyesorlikeshoemakingfortheacquisitionofshoesthatiswhatyoumeanyesandwhatsimilaruseorpowerofacquisitionhasjusticeintimeofpeaceincontractssocratesjusticeisofuseandbycontractsyoumeanpartnershipsexactlybutisthejustmanortheskilfulplayeramoreusefulandbetterpartneratagameofdraughtstheskilfulplayerandinthelayingofbricksandstonesisthejustmanamoreusefulorbetterpartnerthanthebuilderquitethereversetheninwhatsortofpartnershipisthejustmanabetterpartnerthantheharpplayerasinplayingtheharptheharpplayeriscertainlyabetterpartnerthanthejustmaninamoneypartnershipyespolemarchusbutsurelynotintheuseofmoneyforyoudonotwantajustmantobeyourcounsellorinthepurchaseorsaleofahorseamanwhoisknowingabouthorseswouldbebetterforthatwouldhenotcertainlyandwhenyouwanttobuyashiptheshipwrightorthepilotwouldbebettertruethenwhatisthatjointuseofsilverorgoldinwhichthejustmanistobepreferredwhenyouwantadeposittobekeptsafelyyoumeanwhenmoneyisnotwantedbutallowedtoliepreciselythatistosayjusticeisusefulwhenmoneyisuselessthatistheinferenceandwhenyouwanttokeepapruninghooksafethenjusticeisusefultotheindividualandtothestatebutwhenyouwanttouseitthentheartofthevinedresserclearlyandwhenyouwanttokeepashieldoralyreandnottousethemyouwouldsaythatjusticeisusefulbutwhenyouwanttousethemthentheartofthesoldierorofthemusiciancertainlyandsoofallotherthingsjusticeisusefulwhentheyareuselessanduselesswhentheyareusefulthatistheinferencethenjusticeisnotgoodformuchbutletusconsiderthisfurtherpointisnothewhocanbeststrikeablowinaboxingmatchorinanykindoffightingbestabletowardoffablowcertainlyandhewhoismostskilfulinpreventingorescapingfromadiseaseisbestabletocreateonetrueandheisthebestguardofacampwhoisbestabletostealamarchupontheenemycertainlythenhewhoisagoodkeeperofanythingisalsoagoodthiefthatisupposeistobeinferredthenifthejustmanisgoodatkeepingmoneyheisgoodatstealingitthatisimpliedintheargumentthenafterallthejustmanhasturnedouttobeathiefandthisisalessonwhichisuspectyoumusthavelearntoutofhomerforhespeakingofautolycusthematernalgrandfatherofodysseuswhoisafavouriteofhisaffirmsthathewasexcellentaboveallmenintheftandperjuryandsoyouandhomerandsimonidesareagreedthatjusticeisanartofthefttobepractisedhoweverforthegoodoffriendsandfortheharmofenemiesthatwaswhatyouweresayingnocertainlynotthatthoughidonotnowknowwhatididsaybutistillstandbythelatterwordswellthereisanotherquestionbyfriendsandenemiesdowemeanthosewhoaresoreallyoronlyinseemingsurelyhesaidamanmaybeexpectedtolovethosewhomhethinksgoodandtohatethosewhomhethinksevilyesbutdonotpersonsoftenerraboutgoodandevilmanywhoarenotgoodseemtobesoandconverselythatistruethentothemthegoodwillbeenemiesandtheevilwillbetheirfriendstrueandinthatcasetheywillberightindoinggoodtotheevilandeviltothegoodclearlybutthegoodarejustandwouldnotdoaninjusticetruethenaccordingtoyourargumentitisjusttoinjurethosewhodonowrongnaysocratesthedoctrineisimmoralthenisupposethatweoughttodogoodtothejustandharmtotheunjustilikethatbetterbutseetheconsequencemanyamanwhoisignorantofhumannaturehasfriendswhoarebadfriendsandinthatcaseheoughttodoharmtothemandhehasgoodenemieswhomheoughttobenefitbutifsoweshallbesayingtheveryoppositeofthatwhichweaffirmedtobethemeaningofsimonidesverytruehesaidandithinkthatwehadbettercorrectanerrorintowhichweseemtohavefallenintheuseofthewordsfriendandenemywhatwastheerrorpolemarchusiaskedweassumedthatheisafriendwhoseemstobeorwhoisthoughtgoodandhowistheerrortobecorrectedweshouldrathersaythatheisafriendwhoisaswellasseemsgoodandthathewhoseemsonlyandisnotgoodonlyseemstobeandisnotafriendandofanenemythesamemaybesaidyouwouldarguethatthegoodareourfriendsandthebadourenemiesyesandinsteadofsayingsimplyaswedidatfirstthatitisjusttodogoodtoourfriendsandharmtoourenemiesweshouldfurthersayitisjusttodogoodtoourfriendswhentheyaregoodandharmtoourenemieswhentheyareevilyesthatappearstometobethetruthbutoughtthejusttoinjureanyoneatallundoubtedlyheoughttoinjurethosewhoarebothwickedandhisenemieswhenhorsesareinjuredaretheyimprovedordeterioratedthelatterdeterioratedthatistosayinthegoodqualitiesofhorsesnotofdogsyesofhorsesanddogsaredeterioratedinthegoodqualitiesofdogsandnotofhorsesofcourseandwillnotmenwhoareinjuredbedeterioratedinthatwhichisthepropervirtueofmancertainlyandthathumanvirtueisjusticetobesurethenmenwhoareinjuredareofnecessitymadeunjustthatistheresultbutcanthemusicianbyhisartmakemenunmusicalcertainlynotorthehorsemanbyhisartmakethembadhorsemenimpossibleandcanthejustbyjusticemakemenunjustorspeakinggenerallycanthegoodbyvirtuemakethembadassuredlynotanymorethanheatcanproducecolditcannotordroughtmoistureclearlynotnorcanthegoodharmanyoneimpossibleandthejustisthegoodcertainlythentoinjureafriendoranyoneelseisnottheactofajustmanbutoftheoppositewhoistheunjustithinkthatwhatyousayisquitetruesocratesthenifamansaysthatjusticeconsistsintherepaymentofdebtsandthatgoodisthedebtwhichajustmanowestohisfriendsandevilthedebtwhichheowestohisenemiestosaythisisnotwiseforitisnottrueifashasbeenclearlyshowntheinjuringofanothercanbeinnocasejustiagreewithyousaidpolemarchusthenyouandiarepreparedtotakeuparmsagainstanyonewhoattributessuchasayingtosimonidesorbiasorpittacusoranyotherwisemanorseeriamquitereadytodobattleatyoursidehesaidshallitellyouwhoseibelievethesayingtobewhoseibelievethatperianderorperdiccasorxerxesorismeniasthethebanorsomeotherrichandmightymanwhohadagreatopinionofhisownpowerwasthefirsttosaythatjusticeisdoinggoodtoyourfriendsandharmtoyourenemiesmosttruehesaidyesisaidbutifthisdefinitionofjusticealsobreaksdownwhatothercanbeofferedseveraltimesinthecourseofthediscussionthrasymachushadmadeanattempttogettheargumentintohisownhandsandhadbeenputdownbytherestofthecompanywhowantedtoheartheendbutwhenpolemarchusandihaddonespeakingandtherewasapausehecouldnolongerholdhispeaceandgatheringhimselfuphecameatuslikeawildbeastseekingtodevouruswewerequitepanicstrickenatthesightofhimheroaredouttothewholecompanywhatfollysocrateshastakenpossessionofyouallandwhysillybilliesdoyouknockundertooneanotherisaythatifyouwantreallytoknowwhatjusticeisyoushouldnotonlyaskbutanswerandyoushouldnotseekhonourtoyourselffromtherefutationofanopponentbuthaveyourownanswerforthereismanyaonewhocanaskandcannotanswerandnowiwillnothaveyousaythatjusticeisdutyoradvantageorprofitorgainorinterestforthissortofnonsensewillnotdoformeimusthaveclearnessandaccuracyiwaspanicstrickenathiswordsandcouldnotlookathimwithouttremblingindeedibelievethatifihadnotfixedmyeyeuponhimishouldhavebeenstruckdumbbutwhenisawhisfuryrisingilookedathimfirstandwasthereforeabletoreplytohimthrasymachusisaidwithaquiverdontbeharduponuspolemarchusandimayhavebeenguiltyofalittlemistakeintheargumentbuticanassureyouthattheerrorwasnotintentionalifwewereseekingforapieceofgoldyouwouldnotimaginethatwewereknockingundertooneanotherandsolosingourchanceoffindingitandwhywhenweareseekingforjusticeathingmorepreciousthanmanypiecesofgolddoyousaythatweareweaklyyieldingtooneanotherandnotdoingourutmosttogetatthetruthnaymygoodfriendwearemostwillingandanxioustodosobutthefactisthatwecannotandifsoyoupeoplewhoknowallthingsshouldpityusandnotbeangrywithushowcharacteristicofsocratesherepliedwithabitterlaughthatsyourironicalstyledidinotforeseehaveinotalreadytoldyouthatwhateverhewasaskedhewouldrefusetoanswerandtryironyoranyothershuffleinorderthathemightavoidansweringyouareaphilosopherthrasymachusirepliedandwellknowthatifyouaskapersonwhatnumbersmakeuptwelvetakingcaretoprohibithimwhomyouaskfromansweringtwicesixorthreetimesfourorsixtimestwoorfourtimesthreeforthissortofnonsensewillnotdoformethenobviouslyifthatisyourwayofputtingthequestionnoonecanansweryoubutsupposethatheweretoretortthrasymachuswhatdoyoumeanifoneofthesenumberswhichyouinterdictbethetrueanswertothequestionamifalselytosaysomeothernumberwhichisnottherightoneisthatyourmeaninghowwouldyouanswerhimjustasifthetwocaseswereatallalikehesaidwhyshouldtheynotbeirepliedandeveniftheyarenotbutonlyappeartobesotothepersonwhoisaskedoughthenottosaywhathethinkswhetheryouandiforbidhimornotipresumethenthatyouaregoingtomakeoneoftheinterdictedanswersidaresaythatimaynotwithstandingthedangerifuponreflectioniapproveofanyofthembutwhatifigiveyouanansweraboutjusticeotherandbetterhesaidthananyofthesewhatdoyoudeservetohavedonetoyoudonetomeasbecomestheignorantimustlearnfromthewisethatiswhatideservetohavedonetomewhatandnopaymentapleasantnotioniwillpaywhenihavethemoneyirepliedbutyouhavesocratessaidglauconandyouthrasymachusneedbeundernoanxietyaboutmoneyforwewillallmakeacontributionforsocratesyesherepliedandthensocrateswilldoashealwaysdoesrefusetoanswerhimselfbuttakeandpulltopiecestheanswerofsomeoneelsewhymygoodfriendisaidhowcananyoneanswerwhoknowsandsaysthatheknowsjustnothingandwhoevenifhehassomefaintnotionsofhisownistoldbyamanofauthoritynottoutterthemthenaturalthingisthatthespeakershouldbesomeonelikeyourselfwhoprofessestoknowandcantellwhatheknowswillyouthenkindlyanswerfortheedificationofthecompanyandofmyselfglauconandtherestofthecompanyjoinedinmyrequestandthrasymachusasanyonemightseewasinrealityeagertospeakforhethoughtthathehadanexcellentanswerandwoulddistinguishhimselfbutatfirstheaffectedtoinsistonmyansweringatlengthheconsentedtobeginbeholdhesaidthewisdomofsocratesherefusestoteachhimselfandgoesaboutlearningofotherstowhomheneverevensaysthankyouthatilearnofothersirepliedisquitetruebutthatiamungratefuliwhollydenymoneyihavenoneandthereforeipayinpraisewhichisallihaveandhowreadyiamtopraiseanyonewhoappearstometospeakwellyouwillverysoonfindoutwhenyouanswerforiexpectthatyouwillanswerwelllistenthenhesaidiproclaimthatjusticeisnothingelsethantheinterestofthestrongerandnowwhydoyounotpraisemebutofcourseyouwontletmefirstunderstandyouirepliedjusticeasyousayistheinterestofthestrongerwhatthrasymachusisthemeaningofthisyoucannotmeantosaythatbecausepolydamasthepancratiastisstrongerthanweareandfindstheeatingofbeefconducivetohisbodilystrengththattoeatbeefisthereforeequallyforourgoodwhoareweakerthanheisandrightandjustforusthatsabominableofyousocratesyoutakethewordsinthesensewhichismostdamagingtotheargumentnotatallmygoodsirisaidiamtryingtounderstandthemandiwishthatyouwouldbealittleclearerwellhesaidhaveyouneverheardthatformsofgovernmentdiffertherearetyranniesandtherearedemocraciesandtherearearistocraciesyesiknowandthegovernmentistherulingpowerineachstatecertainlyandthedifferentformsofgovernmentmakelawsdemocraticalaristocraticaltyrannicalwithaviewtotheirseveralinterestsandtheselawswhicharemadebythemfortheirowninterestsarethejusticewhichtheydelivertotheirsubjectsandhimwhotransgressesthemtheypunishasabreakerofthelawandunjustandthatiswhatimeanwhenisaythatinallstatesthereisthesameprincipleofjusticewhichistheinterestofthegovernmentandasthegovernmentmustbesupposedtohavepowertheonlyreasonableconclusionisthateverywherethereisoneprincipleofjusticewhichistheinterestofthestrongernowiunderstandyouisaidandwhetheryouarerightornotiwilltrytodiscoverbutletmeremarkthatindefiningjusticeyouhaveyourselfusedthewordinterestwhichyouforbademetouseitistruehoweverthatinyourdefinitionthewordsofthestrongerareaddedasmalladditionyoumustallowhesaidgreatorsmallnevermindaboutthatwemustfirstenquirewhetherwhatyouaresayingisthetruthnowwearebothagreedthatjusticeisinterestofsomesortbutyougoontosayofthestrongeraboutthisadditioniamnotsosureandmustthereforeconsiderfurtherproceediwillandfirsttellmedoyouadmitthatitisjustforsubjectstoobeytheirrulersidobutaretherulersofstatesabsolutelyinfallibleoraretheysometimesliabletoerrtobesureherepliedtheyareliabletoerrtheninmakingtheirlawstheymaysometimesmakethemrightlyandsometimesnottruewhentheymakethemrightlytheymakethemagreeablytotheirinterestwhentheyaremistakencontrarytotheirinterestyouadmitthatyesandthelawswhichtheymakemustbeobeyedbytheirsubjectsandthatiswhatyoucalljusticedoubtlessthenjusticeaccordingtoyourargumentisnotonlyobediencetotheinterestofthestrongerbutthereversewhatisthatyouaresayingheaskediamonlyrepeatingwhatyouaresayingibelievebutletusconsiderhavewenotadmittedthattherulersmaybemistakenabouttheirowninterestinwhattheycommandandalsothattoobeythemisjusticehasnotthatbeenadmittedyesthenyoumustalsohaveacknowledgedjusticenottobefortheinterestofthestrongerwhentherulersunintentionallycommandthingstobedonewhicharetotheirowninjuryforifasyousayjusticeistheobediencewhichthesubjectrenderstotheircommandsinthatcaseowisestofmenisthereanyescapefromtheconclusionthattheweakerarecommandedtodonotwhatisfortheinterestbutwhatisfortheinjuryofthestrongernothingcanbeclearersocratessaidpolemarchusyessaidcleitophoninterposingifyouareallowedtobehiswitnessbutthereisnoneedofanywitnesssaidpolemarchusforthrasymachushimselfacknowledgesthatrulersmaysometimescommandwhatisnotfortheirowninterestandthatforsubjectstoobeythemisjusticeyespolemarchusthrasymachussaidthatforsubjectstodowhatwascommandedbytheirrulersisjustyescleitophonbuthealsosaidthatjusticeistheinterestofthestrongerandwhileadmittingboththesepropositionshefurtheracknowledgedthatthestrongermaycommandtheweakerwhoarehissubjectstodowhatisnotforhisowninterestwhencefollowsthatjusticeistheinjuryquiteasmuchastheinterestofthestrongerbutsaidcleitophonhemeantbytheinterestofthestrongerwhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterestthiswaswhattheweakerhadtodoandthiswasaffirmedbyhimtobejusticethosewerenothiswordsrejoinedpolemarchusnevermindirepliedifhenowsaysthattheyareletusaccepthisstatementtellmethrasymachusisaiddidyoumeanbyjusticewhatthestrongerthoughttobehisinterestwhetherreallysoornotcertainlynothesaiddoyousupposethaticallhimwhoismistakenthestrongeratthetimewhenheismistakenyesisaidmyimpressionwasthatyoudidsowhenyouadmittedthattherulerwasnotinfalliblebutmightbesometimesmistakenyouarguelikeaninformersocratesdoyoumeanforexamplethathewhoismistakenaboutthesickisaphysicianinthatheismistakenorthathewhoerrsinarithmeticorgrammarisanarithmeticianorgrammarianatthetimewhenheismakingthemistakeinrespectofthemistaketruewesaythatthephysicianorarithmeticianorgrammarianhasmadeamistakebutthisisonlyawayofspeakingforthefactisthatneitherthegrammariannoranyotherpersonofskillevermakesamistakeinsofarasheiswhathisnameimpliestheynoneofthemerrunlesstheirskillfailsthemandthentheyceasetobeskilledartistsnoartistorsageorrulererrsatthetimewhenheiswhathisnameimpliesthoughheiscommonlysaidtoerrandiadoptedthecommonmodeofspeakingbuttobeperfectlyaccuratesinceyouaresuchaloverofaccuracyweshouldsaythattherulerinsofarasheisarulerisunerringandbeingunerringalwayscommandsthatwhichisforhisowninterestandthesubjectisrequiredtoexecutehiscommandsandthereforeasisaidatfirstandnowrepeatjusticeistheinterestofthestrongerindeedthrasymachusanddoireallyappeartoyoutoarguelikeaninformercertainlyherepliedanddoyousupposethatiaskthesequestionswithanydesignofinjuringyouintheargumentnayherepliedsupposeisnotthewordiknowitbutyouwillbefoundoutandbysheerforceofargumentyouwillneverprevailishallnotmaketheattemptmydearmanbuttoavoidanymisunderstandingoccurringbetweenusinfutureletmeaskinwhatsensedoyouspeakofarulerorstrongerwhoseinterestasyouweresayinghebeingthesuperioritisjustthattheinferiorshouldexecuteishearulerinthepopularorinthestrictsenseoftheterminthestrictestofallsenseshesaidandnowcheatandplaytheinformerifyoucaniasknoquarteratyourhandsbutyouneverwillbeableneveranddoyouimagineisaidthatiamsuchamadmanastotryandcheatthrasymachusimightaswellshavealionwhyhesaidyoumadetheattemptaminuteagoandyoufailedenoughisaidofthesecivilitiesitwillbebetterthatishouldaskyouaquestionisthephysiciantakeninthatstrictsenseofwhichyouarespeakingahealerofthesickoramakerofmoneyandrememberthatiamnowspeakingofthetruephysicianahealerofthesickherepliedandthepilotthatistosaythetruepilotisheacaptainofsailorsorameresailoracaptainofsailorsthecircumstancethathesailsintheshipisnottobetakenintoaccountneitherishetobecalledasailorthenamepilotbywhichheisdistinguishedhasnothingtodowithsailingbutissignificantofhisskillandofhisauthorityoverthesailorsverytruehesaidnowisaideveryarthasaninterestcertainlyforwhichthearthastoconsiderandprovideyesthatistheaimofartandtheinterestofanyartistheperfectionofitthisandnothingelsewhatdoyoumeanimeanwhatimayillustratenegativelybytheexampleofthebodysupposeyouweretoaskmewhetherthebodyisselfsufficingorhaswantsishouldreplycertainlythebodyhaswantsforthebodymaybeillandrequiretobecuredandhasthereforeintereststowhichtheartofmedicineministersandthisistheoriginandintentionofmedicineasyouwillacknowledgeaminotrightquiterightherepliedbutistheartofmedicineoranyotherartfaultyordeficientinanyqualityinthesamewaythattheeyemaybedeficientinsightortheearfailofhearingandthereforerequiresanotherarttoprovidefortheinterestsofseeingandhearinghasartinitselfisayanysimilarliabilitytofaultordefectanddoeseveryartrequireanothersupplementaryarttoprovideforitsinterestsandthatanotherandanotherwithoutendorhavetheartstolookonlyaftertheirowninterestsorhavetheynoneedeitherofthemselvesorofanotherhavingnofaultsordefectstheyhavenoneedtocorrectthemeitherbytheexerciseoftheirownartorofanyothertheyhaveonlytoconsidertheinterestoftheirsubjectmatterforeveryartremainspureandfaultlesswhileremainingtruethatistosaywhileperfectandunimpairedtakethewordsinyourprecisesenseandtellmewhetheriamnotrightyesclearlythenmedicinedoesnotconsidertheinterestofmedicinebuttheinterestofthebodytruehesaidnordoestheartofhorsemanshipconsidertheinterestsoftheartofhorsemanshipbuttheinterestsofthehorseneitherdoanyotherartscareforthemselvesfortheyhavenoneedstheycareonlyforthatwhichisthesubjectoftheirarttruehesaidbutsurelythrasymachustheartsarethesuperiorsandrulersoftheirownsubjectstothisheassentedwithagooddealofreluctancethenisaidnoscienceorartconsidersorenjoinstheinterestofthestrongerorsuperiorbutonlytheinterestofthesubjectandweakerhemadeanattempttocontestthispropositionalsobutfinallyacquiescedthenicontinuednophysicianinsofarasheisaphysicianconsidershisowngoodinwhatheprescribesbutthegoodofhispatientforthetruephysicianisalsoarulerhavingthehumanbodyasasubjectandisnotameremoneymakerthathasbeenadmittedyesandthepilotlikewiseinthestrictsenseofthetermisarulerofsailorsandnotameresailorthathasbeenadmittedandsuchapilotandrulerwillprovideandprescribefortheinterestofthesailorwhoisunderhimandnotforhisownortherulersinteresthegaveareluctantyesthenisaidthrasymachusthereisnooneinanyrulewhoinsofarasheisarulerconsidersorenjoinswhatisforhisowninterestbutalwayswhatisfortheinterestofhissubjectorsuitabletohisarttothathelooksandthataloneheconsidersineverythingwhichhesaysanddoeswhenwehadgottothispointintheargumentandeveryonesawthatthedefinitionofjusticehadbeencompletelyupsetthrasymachusinsteadofreplyingtomesaidtellmesocrateshaveyougotanursewhydoyouasksuchaquestionisaidwhenyououghtrathertobeansweringbecausesheleavesyoutosnivelandneverwipesyournoseshehasnoteventaughtyoutoknowtheshepherdfromthesheepwhatmakesyousaythatirepliedbecauseyoufancythattheshepherdorneatherdfattensortendsthesheeporoxenwithaviewtotheirowngoodandnottothegoodofhimselforhismasterandyoufurtherimaginethattherulersofstatesiftheyaretruerulersneverthinkoftheirsubjectsassheepandthattheyarenotstudyingtheirownadvantagedayandnightohnoandsoentirelyastrayareyouinyourideasaboutthejustandunjustasnoteventoknowthatjusticeandthejustareinrealityanothersgoodthatistosaytheinterestoftherulerandstrongerandthelossofthesubjectandservantandinjusticetheoppositefortheunjustislordoverthetrulysimpleandjustheisthestrongerandhissubjectsdowhatisforhisinterestandministertohishappinesswhichisveryfarfrombeingtheirownconsiderfurthermostfoolishsocratesthatthejustisalwaysaloserincomparisonwiththeunjustfirstofallinprivatecontractswherevertheunjustisthepartnerofthejustyouwillfindthatwhenthepartnershipisdissolvedtheunjustmanhasalwaysmoreandthejustlesssecondlyintheirdealingswiththestatewhenthereisanincometaxthejustmanwillpaymoreandtheunjustlessonthesameamountofincomeandwhenthereisanythingtobereceivedtheonegainsnothingandtheothermuchobservealsowhathappenswhentheytakeanofficethereisthejustmanneglectinghisaffairsandperhapssufferingotherlossesandgettingnothingoutofthepublicbecauseheisjustmoreoverheishatedbyhisfriendsandacquaintanceforrefusingtoservetheminunlawfulwaysbutallthisisreversedinthecaseoftheunjustmaniamspeakingasbeforeofinjusticeonalargescaleinwhichtheadvantageoftheunjustismostapparentandmymeaningwillbemostclearlyseenifweturntothathighestformofinjusticeinwhichthecriminalisthehappiestofmenandthesufferersorthosewhorefusetodoinjusticearethemostmiserablethatistosaytyrannywhichbyfraudandforcetakesawaythepropertyofothersnotlittlebylittlebutwholesalecomprehendinginonethingssacredaswellasprofaneprivateandpublicforwhichactsofwrongifheweredetectedperpetratinganyoneofthemsinglyhewouldbepunishedandincurgreatdisgracetheywhodosuchwronginparticularcasesarecalledrobbersoftemplesandmanstealersandburglarsandswindlersandthievesbutwhenamanbesidestakingawaythemoneyofthecitizenshasmadeslavesofthemtheninsteadofthesenamesofreproachheistermedhappyandblessednotonlybythecitizensbutbyallwhohearofhishavingachievedtheconsummationofinjusticeformankindcensureinjusticefearingthattheymaybethevictimsofitandnotbecausetheyshrinkfromcommittingitandthusasihaveshownsocratesinjusticewhenonasufficientscalehasmorestrengthandfreedomandmasterythanjusticeandasisaidatfirstjusticeistheinterestofthestrongerwhereasinjusticeisamansownprofitandinterestthrasymachuswhenhehadthusspokenhavinglikeabathmandelugedourearswithhiswordshadamindtogoawaybutthecompanywouldnotlethimtheyinsistedthatheshouldremainanddefendhispositionandimyselfaddedmyownhumblerequestthathewouldnotleaveusthrasymachusisaidtohimexcellentmanhowsuggestiveareyourremarksandareyougoingtorunawaybeforeyouhavefairlytaughtorlearnedwhethertheyaretrueornotistheattempttodeterminethewayofmanslifesosmallamatterinyoureyestodeterminehowlifemaybepassedbyeachoneofustothegreatestadvantageanddoidifferfromyouhesaidastotheimportanceoftheenquiryyouappearratherirepliedtohavenocareorthoughtaboutusthrasymachuswhetherwelivebetterorworsefromnotknowingwhatyousayyouknowistoyouamatterofindifferencepritheefrienddonotkeepyourknowledgetoyourselfwearealargepartyandanybenefitwhichyouconferuponuswillbeamplyrewardedformyownpartiopenlydeclarethatiamnotconvincedandthatidonotbelieveinjusticetobemoregainfulthanjusticeevenifuncontrolledandallowedtohavefreeplayforgrantingthattheremaybeanunjustmanwhoisabletocommitinjusticeeitherbyfraudorforcestillthisdoesnotconvincemeofthesuperioradvantageofinjusticeandtheremaybeotherswhoareinthesamepredicamentwithmyselfperhapswemaybewrongifsoyouinyourwisdomshouldconvinceusthatwearemistakeninpreferringjusticetoinjusticeandhowamitoconvinceyouhesaidifyouarenotalreadyconvincedbywhatihavejustsaidwhatmorecanidoforyouwouldyouhavemeputtheproofbodilyintoyoursoulsheavenforbidisaidiwouldonlyaskyoutobeconsistentorifyouchangechangeopenlyandlettherebenodeceptionforimustremarkthrasymachusifyouwillrecallwhatwaspreviouslysaidthatalthoughyoubeganbydefiningthetruephysicianinanexactsenseyoudidnotobservealikeexactnesswhenspeakingoftheshepherdyouthoughtthattheshepherdasashepherdtendsthesheepnotwithaviewtotheirowngoodbutlikeameredinerorbanquetterwithaviewtothepleasuresofthetableoragainasatraderforsaleinthemarketandnotasashepherdyetsurelytheartoftheshepherdisconcernedonlywiththegoodofhissubjectshehasonlytoprovidethebestforthemsincetheperfectionoftheartisalreadyensuredwheneveralltherequirementsofitaresatisfiedandthatwaswhatiwassayingjustnowabouttherulericonceivedthattheartoftherulerconsideredasrulerwhetherinastateorinprivatelifecouldonlyregardthegoodofhisflockorsubjectswhereasyouseemtothinkthattherulersinstatesthatistosaythetruerulerslikebeinginauthoritythinknayiamsureofitthenwhyinthecaseoflesserofficesdomennevertakethemwillinglywithoutpaymentunlessundertheideathattheygovernfortheadvantagenotofthemselvesbutofothersletmeaskyouaquestionarenottheseveralartsdifferentbyreasonoftheireachhavingaseparatefunctionandmydearillustriousfrienddosaywhatyouthinkthatwemaymakealittleprogressyesthatisthedifferenceherepliedandeachartgivesusaparticulargoodandnotmerelyageneralonemedicineforexamplegivesushealthnavigationsafetyatseaandsoonyeshesaidandtheartofpaymenthasthespecialfunctionofgivingpaybutwedonotconfusethiswithotherartsanymorethantheartofthepilotistobeconfusedwiththeartofmedicinebecausethehealthofthepilotmaybeimprovedbyaseavoyageyouwouldnotbeinclinedtosaywouldyouthatnavigationistheartofmedicineatleastifwearetoadoptyourexactuseoflanguagecertainlynotorbecauseamanisingoodhealthwhenhereceivespayyouwouldnotsaythattheartofpaymentismedicineishouldnotnorwouldyousaythatmedicineistheartofreceivingpaybecauseamantakesfeeswhenheisengagedinhealingcertainlynotandwehaveadmittedisaidthatthegoodofeachartisspeciallyconfinedtotheartyestheniftherebeanygoodwhichallartistshaveincommonthatistobeattributedtosomethingofwhichtheyallhavethecommonusetrueherepliedandwhentheartistisbenefitedbyreceivingpaytheadvantageisgainedbyanadditionaluseoftheartofpaywhichisnottheartprofessedbyhimhegaveareluctantassenttothisthenthepayisnotderivedbytheseveralartistsfromtheirrespectiveartsbutthetruthisthatwhiletheartofmedicinegiveshealthandtheartofthebuilderbuildsahouseanotherartattendsthemwhichistheartofpaythevariousartsmaybedoingtheirownbusinessandbenefitingthatoverwhichtheypresidebutwouldtheartistreceiveanybenefitfromhisartunlesshewerepaidaswellisupposenotbutdoeshethereforeconfernobenefitwhenheworksfornothingcertainlyheconfersabenefitthennowthrasymachusthereisnolongeranydoubtthatneitherartsnorgovernmentsprovidefortheirowninterestsbutaswewerebeforesayingtheyruleandprovidefortheinterestsoftheirsubjectswhoaretheweakerandnotthestrongertotheirgoodtheyattendandnottothegoodofthesuperiorandthisisthereasonmydearthrasymachuswhyasiwasjustnowsayingnooneiswillingtogovernbecausenoonelikestotakeinhandthereformationofevilswhicharenothisconcernwithoutremunerationforintheexecutionofhisworkandingivinghisorderstoanotherthetrueartistdoesnotregardhisowninterestbutalwaysthatofhissubjectsandthereforeinorderthatrulersmaybewillingtoruletheymustbepaidinoneofthreemodesofpaymentmoneyorhonourorapenaltyforrefusingwhatdoyoumeansocratessaidglauconthefirsttwomodesofpaymentareintelligibleenoughbutwhatthepenaltyisidonotunderstandorhowapenaltycanbeapaymentyoumeanthatyoudonotunderstandthenatureofthispaymentwhichtothebestmenisthegreatinducementtoruleofcourseyouknowthatambitionandavariceareheldtobeasindeedtheyareadisgraceverytrueandforthisreasonisaidmoneyandhonourhavenoattractionforthemgoodmendonotwishtobeopenlydemandingpaymentforgoverningandsotogetthenameofhirelingsnorbysecretlyhelpingthemselvesoutofthepublicrevenuestogetthenameofthievesandnotbeingambitioustheydonotcareabouthonourwhereforenecessitymustbelaiduponthemandtheymustbeinducedtoservefromthefearofpunishmentandthisasiimagineisthereasonwhytheforwardnesstotakeofficeinsteadofwaitingtobecompelledhasbeendeemeddishonourablenowtheworstpartofthepunishmentisthathewhorefusestoruleisliabletoberuledbyonewhoisworsethanhimselfandthefearofthisasiconceiveinducesthegoodtotakeofficenotbecausetheywouldbutbecausetheycannothelpnotundertheideathattheyaregoingtohaveanybenefitorenjoymentthemselvesbutasanecessityandbecausetheyarenotabletocommitthetaskofrulingtoanyonewhoisbetterthanthemselvesorindeedasgoodforthereisreasontothinkthatifacitywerecomposedentirelyofgoodmenthentoavoidofficewouldbeasmuchanobjectofcontentionastoobtainofficeisatpresentthenweshouldhaveplainproofthatthetruerulerisnotmeantbynaturetoregardhisowninterestbutthatofhissubjectsandeveryonewhoknewthiswouldchooserathertoreceiveabenefitfromanotherthantohavethetroubleofconferringonesofaramifromagreeingwiththrasymachusthatjusticeistheinterestofthestrongerthislatterquestionneednotbefurtherdiscussedatpresentbutwhenthrasymachussaysthatthelifeoftheunjustismoreadvantageousthanthatofthejusthisnewstatementappearstometobeofafarmoreseriouscharacterwhichofushasspokentrulyandwhichsortoflifeglaucondoyoupreferiformypartdeemthelifeofthejusttobethemoreadvantageousheanswereddidyouhearalltheadvantagesoftheunjustwhichthrasymachuswasrehearsingyesiheardhimherepliedbuthehasnotconvincedmethenshallwetrytofindsomewayofconvincinghimifwecanthatheissayingwhatisnottruemostcertainlyherepliedifisaidhemakesasetspeechandwemakeanotherrecountingalltheadvantagesofbeingjustandheanswersandwerejointheremustbeanumberingandmeasuringofthegoodswhichareclaimedoneithersideandintheendweshallwantjudgestodecidebutifweproceedinourenquiryaswelatelydidbymakingadmissionstooneanotherweshallunitetheofficesofjudgeandadvocateinourownpersonsverygoodhesaidandwhichmethoddoiunderstandyoutopreferisaidthatwhichyouproposewellthenthrasymachusisaidsupposeyoubeginatthebeginningandanswermeyousaythatperfectinjusticeismoregainfulthanperfectjusticeyesthatiswhatisayandihavegivenyoumyreasonsandwhatisyourviewaboutthemwouldyoucalloneofthemvirtueandtheothervicecertainlyisupposethatyouwouldcalljusticevirtueandinjusticevicewhatacharmingnotionsolikelytooseeingthatiaffirminjusticetobeprofitableandjusticenotwhatelsethenwouldyousaytheoppositeherepliedandwouldyoucalljusticevicenoiwouldrathersaysublimesimplicitythenwouldyoucallinjusticemalignitynoiwouldrathersaydiscretionanddotheunjustappeartoyoutobewiseandgoodyeshesaidatanyratethoseofthemwhoareabletobeperfectlyunjustandwhohavethepowerofsubduingstatesandnationsbutperhapsyouimaginemetobetalkingofcutpurseseventhisprofessionifundetectedhasadvantagesthoughtheyarenottobecomparedwiththoseofwhichiwasjustnowspeakingidonotthinkthatimisapprehendyourmeaningthrasymachusirepliedbutstillicannothearwithoutamazementthatyouclassinjusticewithwisdomandvirtueandjusticewiththeoppositecertainlyidosoclassthemnowisaidyouareonmoresubstantialandalmostunanswerablegroundforiftheinjusticewhichyouweremaintainingtobeprofitablehadbeenadmittedbyyouasbyotherstobeviceanddeformityananswermighthavebeengiventoyouonreceivedprinciplesbutnowiperceivethatyouwillcallinjusticehonourableandstrongandtotheunjustyouwillattributeallthequalitieswhichwereattributedbyusbeforetothejustseeingthatyoudonothesitatetorankinjusticewithwisdomandvirtueyouhaveguessedmostinfalliblyherepliedthenicertainlyoughtnottoshrinkfromgoingthroughwiththeargumentsolongasihavereasontothinkthatyouthrasymachusarespeakingyourrealmindforidobelievethatyouarenowinearnestandarenotamusingyourselfatourexpenseimaybeinearnestornotbutwhatisthattoyoutorefutetheargumentisyourbusinessverytrueisaidthatiswhatihavetodobutwillyoubesogoodasansweryetonemorequestiondoesthejustmantrytogainanyadvantageoverthejustfarotherwiseifhedidhewouldnotbethesimpleamusingcreaturewhichheisandwouldhetrytogobeyondjustactionhewouldnotandhowwouldheregardtheattempttogainanadvantageovertheunjustwouldthatbeconsideredbyhimasjustorunjusthewouldthinkitjustandwouldtrytogaintheadvantagebuthewouldnotbeablewhetherhewouldorwouldnotbeableisaidisnottothepointmyquestionisonlywhetherthejustmanwhilerefusingtohavemorethananotherjustmanwouldwishandclaimtohavemorethantheunjustyeshewouldandwhatoftheunjustdoesheclaimtohavemorethanthejustmanandtodomorethanisjustofcoursehesaidforheclaimstohavemorethanallmenandtheunjustmanwillstriveandstruggletoobtainmorethantheunjustmanoractioninorderthathemayhavemorethanalltruewemayputthematterthusisaidthejustdoesnotdesiremorethanhislikebutmorethanhisunlikewhereastheunjustdesiresmorethanbothhislikeandhisunlikenothinghesaidcanbebetterthanthatstatementandtheunjustisgoodandwiseandthejustisneithergoodagainhesaidandisnottheunjustlikethewiseandgoodandthejustunlikethemofcoursehesaidhewhoisofacertainnatureislikethosewhoareofacertainnaturehewhoisnotnoteachofthemisaidissuchashislikeiscertainlyherepliedverygoodthrasymachusisaidandnowtotakethecaseoftheartsyouwouldadmitthatonemanisamusicianandanothernotamusicianyesandwhichiswiseandwhichisfoolishclearlythemusicianiswiseandhewhoisnotamusicianisfoolishandheisgoodinasfarasheiswiseandbadinasfarasheisfoolishyesandyouwouldsaythesamesortofthingofthephysicianyesanddoyouthinkmyexcellentfriendthatamusicianwhenheadjuststhelyrewoulddesireorclaimtoexceedorgobeyondamusicianinthetighteningandlooseningthestringsidonotthinkthathewouldbuthewouldclaimtoexceedthenonmusicianofcourseandwhatwouldyousayofthephysicianinprescribingmeatsanddrinkswouldhewishtogobeyondanotherphysicianorbeyondthepracticeofmedicinehewouldnotbuthewouldwishtogobeyondthenonphysicianyesandaboutknowledgeandignoranceingeneralseewhetheryouthinkthatanymanwhohasknowledgeeverwouldwishtohavethechoiceofsayingordoingmorethananothermanwhohasknowledgewouldhenotrathersayordothesameashislikeinthesamecasethatisupposecanhardlybedeniedandwhatoftheignorantwouldhenotdesiretohavemorethaneithertheknowingortheignorantidaresayandtheknowingiswiseyesandthewiseisgoodtruethenthewiseandgoodwillnotdesiretogainmorethanhislikebutmorethanhisunlikeandoppositeisupposesowhereasthebadandignorantwilldesiretogainmorethanbothyesbutdidwenotsaythrasymachusthattheunjustgoesbeyondbothhislikeandunlikewerenottheseyourwordstheywereandyoualsosaidthatthejustwillnotgobeyondhislikebuthisunlikeyesthenthejustislikethewiseandgoodandtheunjustliketheevilandignorantthatistheinferenceandeachofthemissuchashislikeisthatwasadmittedthenthejusthasturnedouttobewiseandgoodandtheunjustevilandignorantthrasymachusmadealltheseadmissionsnotfluentlyasirepeatthembutwithextremereluctanceitwasahotsummersdayandtheperspirationpouredfromhimintorrentsandthenisawwhatihadneverseenbeforethrasymachusblushingaswewerenowagreedthatjusticewasvirtueandwisdomandinjusticeviceandignoranceiproceededtoanotherpointwellisaidthrasymachusthatmatterisnowsettledbutwerewenotalsosayingthatinjusticehadstrengthdoyourememberyesirememberhesaidbutdonotsupposethatiapproveofwhatyouaresayingorhavenoanswerifhoweveriweretoansweryouwouldbequitecertaintoaccusemeofharanguingthereforeeitherpermitmetohavemysayoutorifyouwouldratheraskdosoandiwillanswerverygoodastheysaytostorytellingoldwomenandwillnodyesandnocertainlynotisaidifcontrarytoyourrealopinionyeshesaidiwilltopleaseyousinceyouwillnotletmespeakwhatelsewouldyouhavenothingintheworldisaidandifyouaresodisposediwillaskandyoushallanswerproceedtheniwillrepeatthequestionwhichiaskedbeforeinorderthatourexaminationoftherelativenatureofjusticeandinjusticemaybecarriedonregularlyastatementwasmadethatinjusticeisstrongerandmorepowerfulthanjusticebutnowjusticehavingbeenidentifiedwithwisdomandvirtueiseasilyshowntobestrongerthaninjusticeifinjusticeisignorancethiscannolongerbequestionedbyanyonebutiwanttoviewthematterthrasymachusinadifferentwayyouwouldnotdenythatastatemaybeunjustandmaybeunjustlyattemptingtoenslaveotherstatesormayhavealreadyenslavedthemandmaybeholdingmanyoftheminsubjectiontrueherepliedandiwilladdthatthebestandmostperfectlyunjuststatewillbemostlikelytodosoiknowisaidthatsuchwasyourpositionbutwhatiwouldfurtherconsideriswhetherthispowerwhichispossessedbythesuperiorstatecanexistorbeexercisedwithoutjusticeoronlywithjusticeifyouarerightinyourviewandjusticeiswisdomthenonlywithjusticebutifiamrightthenwithoutjusticeiamdelightedthrasymachustoseeyounotonlynoddingassentanddissentbutmakinganswerswhicharequiteexcellentthatisoutofcivilitytoyouherepliedyouareverykindisaidandwouldyouhavethegoodnessalsotoinformmewhetheryouthinkthatastateoranarmyorabandofrobbersandthievesoranyothergangofevildoerscouldactatalliftheyinjuredoneanothernoindeedhesaidtheycouldnotbutiftheyabstainedfrominjuringoneanotherthentheymightacttogetherbetteryesandthisisbecauseinjusticecreatesdivisionsandhatredsandfightingandjusticeimpartsharmonyandfriendshipisnotthattruethrasymachusiagreehesaidbecauseidonotwishtoquarrelwithyouhowgoodofyouisaidbutishouldliketoknowalsowhetherinjusticehavingthistendencytoarousehatredwhereverexistingamongslavesoramongfreemenwillnotmakethemhateoneanotherandsetthematvarianceandrenderthemincapableofcommonactioncertainlyandevenifinjusticebefoundintwoonlywilltheynotquarrelandfightandbecomeenemiestooneanotherandtothejusttheywillandsupposeinjusticeabidinginasinglepersonwouldyourwisdomsaythatshelosesorthatsheretainshernaturalpowerletusassumethatsheretainsherpoweryetisnotthepowerwhichinjusticeexercisesofsuchanaturethatwherevershetakesupherabodewhetherinacityinanarmyinafamilyorinanyotherbodythatbodyistobeginwithrenderedincapableofunitedactionbyreasonofseditionanddistractionanddoesitnotbecomeitsownenemyandatvariancewithallthatopposesitandwiththejustisnotthisthecaseyescertainlyandisnotinjusticeequallyfatalwhenexistinginasinglepersoninthefirstplacerenderinghimincapableofactionbecauseheisnotatunitywithhimselfandinthesecondplacemakinghimanenemytohimselfandthejustisnotthattruethrasymachusyesandomyfriendisaidsurelythegodsarejustgrantedthattheyarebutifsotheunjustwillbetheenemyofthegodsandthejustwillbetheirfriendfeastawayintriumphandtakeyourfilloftheargumentiwillnotopposeyoulestishoulddispleasethecompanywellthenproceedwithyouranswersandletmehavetheremainderofmyrepastforwehavealreadyshownthatthejustareclearlywiserandbetterandablerthantheunjustandthattheunjustareincapableofcommonactionnaymorethattospeakaswedidofmenwhoareevilactingatanytimevigorouslytogetherisnotstrictlytrueforiftheyhadbeenperfectlyeviltheywouldhavelaidhandsupononeanotherbutitisevidentthattheremusthavebeensomeremnantofjusticeinthemwhichenabledthemtocombineiftherehadnotbeentheywouldhaveinjuredoneanotheraswellastheirvictimstheywerebuthalfvillainsintheirenterprisesforhadtheybeenwholevillainsandutterlyunjusttheywouldhavebeenutterlyincapableofactionthatasibelieveisthetruthofthematterandnotwhatyousaidatfirstbutwhetherthejusthaveabetterandhappierlifethantheunjustisafurtherquestionwhichwealsoproposedtoconsiderithinkthattheyhaveandforthereasonswhichihavegivenbutstillishouldliketoexaminefurtherfornolightmatterisatstakenothinglessthantheruleofhumanlifeproceediwillproceedbyaskingaquestionwouldyounotsaythatahorsehassomeendishouldandtheendoruseofahorseorofanythingwouldbethatwhichcouldnotbeaccomplishedornotsowellaccomplishedbyanyotherthingidonotunderstandhesaidletmeexplaincanyouseeexceptwiththeeyecertainlynotorhearexceptwiththeearnothesethenmaybetrulysaidtobetheendsoftheseorganstheymaybutyoucancutoffavinebranchwithadaggerorwithachiselandinmanyotherwaysofcourseandyetnotsowellaswithapruninghookmadeforthepurposetruemaywenotsaythatthisistheendofapruninghookwemaythennowithinkyouwillhavenodifficultyinunderstandingmymeaningwheniaskedthequestionwhethertheendofanythingwouldbethatwhichcouldnotbeaccomplishedornotsowellaccomplishedbyanyotherthingiunderstandyourmeaninghesaidandassentandthattowhichanendisappointedhasalsoanexcellenceneediaskagainwhethertheeyehasanendithasandhasnottheeyeanexcellenceyesandtheearhasanendandanexcellencealsotrueandthesameistrueofallotherthingstheyhaveeachofthemanendandaspecialexcellencethatissowellandcantheeyesfulfiltheirendiftheyarewantingintheirownproperexcellenceandhaveadefectinsteadhowcantheyhesaidiftheyareblindandcannotseeyoumeantosayiftheyhavelosttheirproperexcellencewhichissightbutihavenotarrivedatthatpointyetiwouldratheraskthequestionmoregenerallyandonlyenquirewhetherthethingswhichfulfiltheirendsfulfilthembytheirownproperexcellenceandfailoffulfillingthembytheirowndefectcertainlyherepliedimightsaythesameoftheearswhendeprivedoftheirownproperexcellencetheycannotfulfiltheirendtrueandthesameobservationwillapplytoallotherthingsiagreewellandhasnotthesoulanendwhichnothingelsecanfulfilforexampletosuperintendandcommandanddeliberateandthelikearenotthesefunctionspropertothesoulandcantheyrightlybeassignedtoanyothertonootherandisnotlifetobereckonedamongtheendsofthesoulassuredlyhesaidandhasnotthesoulanexcellencealsoyesandcansheorcanshenotfulfilherownendswhendeprivedofthatexcellenceshecannotthenanevilsoulmustnecessarilybeanevilrulerandsuperintendentandthegoodsoulagoodruleryesnecessarilyandwehaveadmittedthatjusticeistheexcellenceofthesoulandinjusticethedefectofthesoulthathasbeenadmittedthenthejustsoulandthejustmanwilllivewellandtheunjustmanwillliveillthatiswhatyourargumentprovesandhewholiveswellisblessedandhappyandhewholivesillthereverseofhappycertainlythenthejustishappyandtheunjustmiserablesobeitbuthappinessandnotmiseryisprofitableofcoursethenmyblessedthrasymachusinjusticecanneverbemoreprofitablethanjusticeletthissocrateshesaidbeyourentertainmentatthebendideaforwhichiamindebtedtoyouisaidnowthatyouhavegrowngentletowardsmeandhaveleftoffscoldingneverthelessihavenotbeenwellentertainedbutthatwasmyownfaultandnotyoursasanepicuresnatchesatasteofeverydishwhichissuccessivelybroughttotablehenothavingallowedhimselftimetoenjoytheonebeforesohaveigonefromonesubjecttoanotherwithouthavingdiscoveredwhatisoughtatfirstthenatureofjusticeileftthatenquiryandturnedawaytoconsiderwhetherjusticeisvirtueandwisdomorevilandfollyandwhentherearoseafurtherquestionaboutthecomparativeadvantagesofjusticeandinjusticeicouldnotrefrainfrompassingontothatandtheresultofthewholediscussionhasbeenthatiknownothingatallforiknownotwhatjusticeisandthereforeiamnotlikelytoknowwhetheritisorisnotavirtuenorcanisaywhetherthejustmanishappyorunhappybookiiwiththesewordsiwasthinkingthatihadmadeanendofthediscussionbuttheendintruthprovedtobeonlyabeginningforglauconwhoisalwaysthemostpugnaciousofmenwasdissatisfiedatthrasymachusretirementhewantedtohavethebattleoutsohesaidtomesocratesdoyouwishreallytopersuadeusoronlytoseemtohavepersuadedusthattobejustisalwaysbetterthantobeunjustishouldwishreallytopersuadeyouirepliedificouldthenyoucertainlyhavenotsucceededletmeaskyounowhowwouldyouarrangegoodsaretherenotsomewhichwewelcomefortheirownsakesandindependentlyoftheirconsequencesasforexampleharmlesspleasuresandenjoymentswhichdelightusatthetimealthoughnothingfollowsfromthemiagreeinthinkingthatthereissuchaclassirepliedistherenotalsoasecondclassofgoodssuchasknowledgesighthealthwhicharedesirablenotonlyinthemselvesbutalsofortheirresultscertainlyisaidandwouldyounotrecognizeathirdclasssuchasgymnasticandthecareofthesickandthephysiciansartalsothevariouswaysofmoneymakingthesedousgoodbutweregardthemasdisagreeableandnoonewouldchoosethemfortheirownsakesbutonlyforthesakeofsomerewardorresultwhichflowsfromthemthereisisaidthisthirdclassalsobutwhydoyouaskbecauseiwanttoknowinwhichofthethreeclassesyouwouldplacejusticeinthehighestclassirepliedamongthosegoodswhichhewhowouldbehappydesiresbothfortheirownsakeandforthesakeoftheirresultsthenthemanyareofanothermindtheythinkthatjusticeistobereckonedinthetroublesomeclassamonggoodswhicharetobepursuedforthesakeofrewardsandofreputationbutinthemselvesaredisagreeableandrathertobeavoidediknowisaidthatthisistheirmannerofthinkingandthatthiswasthethesiswhichthrasymachuswasmaintainingjustnowwhenhecensuredjusticeandpraisedinjusticebutiamtoostupidtobeconvincedbyhimiwishhesaidthatyouwouldhearmeaswellashimandthenishallseewhetheryouandiagreeforthrasymachusseemstomelikeasnaketohavebeencharmedbyyourvoicesoonerthanheoughttohavebeenbuttomymindthenatureofjusticeandinjusticehavenotyetbeenmadeclearsettingasidetheirrewardsandresultsiwanttoknowwhattheyareinthemselvesandhowtheyinwardlyworkinthesoulifyoupleasetheniwillrevivetheargumentofthrasymachusandfirstiwillspeakofthenatureandoriginofjusticeaccordingtothecommonviewofthemsecondlyiwillshowthatallmenwhopractisejusticedosoagainsttheirwillofnecessitybutnotasagoodandthirdlyiwillarguethatthereisreasoninthisviewforthelifeoftheunjustisafterallbetterfarthanthelifeofthejustifwhattheysayistruesocratessinceimyselfamnotoftheiropinionbutstilliacknowledgethatiamperplexedwhenihearthevoicesofthrasymachusandmyriadsofothersdinninginmyearsandontheotherhandihaveneveryetheardthesuperiorityofjusticetoinjusticemaintainedbyanyoneinasatisfactorywayiwanttohearjusticepraisedinrespectofitselfthenishallbesatisfiedandyouarethepersonfromwhomithinkthatiammostlikelytohearthisandthereforeiwillpraisetheunjustlifetotheutmostofmypowerandmymannerofspeakingwillindicatethemannerinwhichidesiretohearyoutoopraisingjusticeandcensuringinjusticewillyousaywhetheryouapproveofmyproposalindeedidonorcaniimagineanythemeaboutwhichamanofsensewouldoftenerwishtoconverseiamdelightedherepliedtohearyousaysoandshallbeginbyspeakingasiproposedofthenatureandoriginofjusticetheysaythattodoinjusticeisbynaturegoodtosufferinjusticeevilbutthattheevilisgreaterthanthegoodandsowhenmenhavebothdoneandsufferedinjusticeandhavehadexperienceofbothnotbeingabletoavoidtheoneandobtaintheothertheythinkthattheyhadbetteragreeamongthemselvestohaveneitherhencethereariselawsandmutualcovenantsandthatwhichisordainedbylawistermedbythemlawfulandjustthistheyaffirmtobetheoriginandnatureofjusticeitisameanorcompromisebetweenthebestofallwhichistodoinjusticeandnotbepunishedandtheworstofallwhichistosufferinjusticewithoutthepowerofretaliationandjusticebeingatamiddlepointbetweenthetwoistoleratednotasagoodbutasthelesserevilandhonouredbyreasonoftheinabilityofmentodoinjusticefornomanwhoisworthytobecalledamanwouldeversubmittosuchanagreementifhewereabletoresisthewouldbemadifhedidsuchisthereceivedaccountsocratesofthenatureandoriginofjusticenowthatthosewhopractisejusticedosoinvoluntarilyandbecausetheyhavenotthepowertobeunjustwillbestappearifweimaginesomethingofthiskindhavinggivenbothtothejustandtheunjustpowertodowhattheywillletuswatchandseewhitherdesirewillleadthemthenweshalldiscoverintheveryactthejustandunjustmantobeproceedingalongthesameroadfollowingtheirinterestwhichallnaturesdeemtobetheirgoodandareonlydivertedintothepathofjusticebytheforceoflawthelibertywhichwearesupposingmaybemostcompletelygiventothemintheformofsuchapowerasissaidtohavebeenpossessedbygygestheancestorofcroesusthelydianaccordingtothetraditiongygeswasashepherdintheserviceofthekingoflydiatherewasagreatstormandanearthquakemadeanopeningintheearthattheplacewherehewasfeedinghisflockamazedatthesighthedescendedintotheopeningwhereamongothermarvelshebeheldahollowbrazenhorsehavingdoorsatwhichhestoopingandlookinginsawadeadbodyofstatureasappearedtohimmorethanhumanandhavingnothingonbutagoldringthishetookfromthefingerofthedeadandreascendednowtheshepherdsmettogetheraccordingtocustomthattheymightsendtheirmonthlyreportabouttheflockstothekingintotheirassemblyhecamehavingtheringonhisfingerandashewassittingamongthemhechancedtoturnthecolletoftheringinsidehishandwheninstantlyhebecameinvisibletotherestofthecompanyandtheybegantospeakofhimasifhewerenolongerpresenthewasastonishedatthisandagaintouchingtheringheturnedthecolletoutwardsandreappearedhemadeseveraltrialsoftheringandalwayswiththesameresultwhenheturnedthecolletinwardshebecameinvisiblewhenoutwardshereappearedwhereuponhecontrivedtobechosenoneofthemessengerswhoweresenttothecourtwhereassoonashearrivedheseducedthequeenandwithherhelpconspiredagainstthekingandslewhimandtookthekingdomsupposenowthatthereweretwosuchmagicringsandthejustputononeofthemandtheunjusttheothernomancanbeimaginedtobeofsuchanironnaturethathewouldstandfastinjusticenomanwouldkeephishandsoffwhatwasnothisownwhenhecouldsafelytakewhathelikedoutofthemarketorgointohousesandliewithanyoneathispleasureorkillorreleasefromprisonwhomhewouldandinallrespectsbelikeagodamongmenthentheactionsofthejustwouldbeastheactionsoftheunjusttheywouldbothcomeatlasttothesamepointandthiswemaytrulyaffirmtobeagreatproofthatamanisjustnotwillinglyorbecausehethinksthatjusticeisanygoodtohimindividuallybutofnecessityforwhereveranyonethinksthathecansafelybeunjustthereheisunjustforallmenbelieveintheirheartsthatinjusticeisfarmoreprofitabletotheindividualthanjusticeandhewhoarguesasihavebeensupposingwillsaythattheyarerightifyoucouldimagineanyoneobtainingthispowerofbecominginvisibleandneverdoinganywrongortouchingwhatwasanothershewouldbethoughtbythelookersontobeamostwretchedidiotalthoughtheywouldpraisehimtooneanothersfacesandkeepupappearanceswithoneanotherfromafearthattheytoomightsufferinjusticeenoughofthisnowifwearetoformarealjudgmentofthelifeofthejustandunjustwemustisolatethemthereisnootherwayandhowistheisolationtobeeffectedianswerlettheunjustmanbeentirelyunjustandthejustmanentirelyjustnothingistobetakenawayfromeitherofthemandbotharetobeperfectlyfurnishedfortheworkoftheirrespectivelivesfirstlettheunjustbelikeotherdistinguishedmastersofcraftliketheskilfulpilotorphysicianwhoknowsintuitivelyhisownpowersandkeepswithintheirlimitsandwhoifhefailsatanypointisabletorecoverhimselfsolettheunjustmakehisunjustattemptsintherightwayandliehiddenifhemeanstobegreatinhisinjusticehewhoisfoundoutisnobodyforthehighestreachofinjusticeistobedeemedjustwhenyouarenotthereforeisaythatintheperfectlyunjustmanwemustassumethemostperfectinjusticethereistobenodeductionbutwemustallowhimwhiledoingthemostunjustactstohaveacquiredthegreatestreputationforjusticeifhehavetakenafalsestephemustbeabletorecoverhimselfhemustbeonewhocanspeakwitheffectifanyofhisdeedscometolightandwhocanforcehiswaywhereforceisrequiredbyhiscourageandstrengthandcommandofmoneyandfriendsandathissideletusplacethejustmaninhisnoblenessandsimplicitywishingasaeschylussaystobeandnottoseemgoodtheremustbenoseemingforifheseemtobejusthewillbehonouredandrewardedandthenweshallnotknowwhetherheisjustforthesakeofjusticeorforthesakeofhonoursandrewardsthereforelethimbeclothedinjusticeonlyandhavenoothercoveringandhemustbeimaginedinastateoflifetheoppositeoftheformerlethimbethebestofmenandlethimbethoughttheworstthenhewillhavebeenputtotheproofandweshallseewhetherhewillbeaffectedbythefearofinfamyanditsconsequencesandlethimcontinuethustothehourofdeathbeingjustandseemingtobeunjustwhenbothhavereachedtheuttermostextremetheoneofjusticeandtheotherofinjusticeletjudgmentbegivenwhichofthemisthehappierofthetwoheavensmydearglauconisaidhowenergeticallyyoupolishthemupforthedecisionfirstoneandthentheotherasiftheyweretwostatuesidomybesthesaidandnowthatweknowwhattheyarelikethereisnodifficultyintracingoutthesortoflifewhichawaitseitherofthemthisiwillproceedtodescribebutasyoumaythinkthedescriptionalittletoocoarseiaskyoutosupposesocratesthatthewordswhichfollowarenotmineletmeputthemintothemouthsoftheeulogistsofinjusticetheywilltellyouthatthejustmanwhoisthoughtunjustwillbescourgedrackedboundwillhavehiseyesburntoutandatlastaftersufferingeverykindofevilhewillbeimpaledthenhewillunderstandthatheoughttoseemonlyandnottobejustthewordsofaeschylusmaybemoretrulyspokenoftheunjustthanofthejustfortheunjustispursuingarealityhedoesnotlivewithaviewtoappearanceshewantstobereallyunjustandnottoseemonlyhismindhasasoildeepandfertileoutofwhichspringhisprudentcounselsinthefirstplaceheisthoughtjustandthereforebearsruleinthecityhecanmarrywhomhewillandgiveinmarriagetowhomhewillalsohecantradeanddealwherehelikesandalwaystohisownadvantagebecausehehasnomisgivingsaboutinjusticeandateverycontestwhetherinpublicorprivatehegetsthebetterofhisantagonistsandgainsattheirexpenseandisrichandoutofhisgainshecanbenefithisfriendsandharmhisenemiesmoreoverhecanoffersacrificesanddedicategiftstothegodsabundantlyandmagnificentlyandcanhonourthegodsoranymanwhomhewantstohonourinafarbetterstylethanthejustandthereforeheislikelytobedearerthantheyaretothegodsandthussocratesgodsandmenaresaidtouniteinmakingthelifeoftheunjustbetterthanthelifeofthejustiwasgoingtosaysomethinginanswertoglauconwhenadeimantushisbrotherinterposedsocrateshesaidyoudonotsupposethatthereisnothingmoretobeurgedwhywhatelseisthereiansweredthestrongestpointofallhasnotbeenevenmentionedherepliedwellthenaccordingtotheproverbletbrotherhelpbrotherifhefailsinanypartdoyouassisthimalthoughimustconfessthatglauconhasalreadysaidquiteenoughtolaymeinthedustandtakefrommethepowerofhelpingjusticenonsenseherepliedbutletmeaddsomethingmorethereisanothersidetoglauconsargumentaboutthepraiseandcensureofjusticeandinjusticewhichisequallyrequiredinordertobringoutwhatibelievetobehismeaningparentsandtutorsarealwaystellingtheirsonsandtheirwardsthattheyaretobejustbutwhynotforthesakeofjusticebutforthesakeofcharacterandreputationinthehopeofobtainingforhimwhoisreputedjustsomeofthoseofficesmarriagesandthelikewhichglauconhasenumeratedamongtheadvantagesaccruingtotheunjustfromthereputationofjusticemorehoweverismadeofappearancesbythisclassofpersonsthanbytheothersfortheythrowinthegoodopinionofthegodsandwilltellyouofashowerofbenefitswhichtheheavensastheysayrainuponthepiousandthisaccordswiththetestimonyofthenoblehesiodandhomerthefirstofwhomsaysthatthegodsmaketheoaksofthejusttobearacornsattheirsummitandbeesinthemiddleandthesheepareboweddownwiththeweightoftheirfleecesandmanyotherblessingsofalikekindareprovidedforthemandhomerhasaverysimilarstrainforhespeaksofonewhosefameisasthefameofsomeblamelesskingwholikeagodmaintainsjusticetowhomtheblackearthbringsforthwheatandbarleywhosetreesarebowedwithfruitandhissheepneverfailtobearandtheseagiveshimfishstillgranderarethegiftsofheavenwhichmusaeusandhissonvouchsafetothejusttheytakethemdownintotheworldbelowwheretheyhavethesaintslyingoncouchesatafeasteverlastinglydrunkcrownedwithgarlandstheirideaseemstobethatanimmortalityofdrunkennessisthehighestmeedofvirtuesomeextendtheirrewardsyetfurthertheposterityastheysayofthefaithfulandjustshallsurvivetothethirdandfourthgenerationthisisthestyleinwhichtheypraisejusticebutaboutthewickedthereisanotherstraintheyburytheminasloughinhadesandmakethemcarrywaterinasievealsowhiletheyareyetlivingtheybringthemtoinfamyandinflictuponthemthepunishmentswhichglaucondescribedastheportionofthejustwhoarereputedtobeunjustnothingelsedoestheirinventionsupplysuchistheirmannerofpraisingtheoneandcensuringtheotheroncemoresocratesiwillaskyoutoconsideranotherwayofspeakingaboutjusticeandinjusticewhichisnotconfinedtothepoetsbutisfoundinprosewriterstheuniversalvoiceofmankindisalwaysdeclaringthatjusticeandvirtuearehonourablebutgrievousandtoilsomeandthatthepleasuresofviceandinjusticeareeasyofattainmentandareonlycensuredbylawandopiniontheysayalsothathonestyisforthemostpartlessprofitablethandishonestyandtheyarequitereadytocallwickedmenhappyandtohonourthembothinpublicandprivatewhentheyarerichorinanyotherwayinfluentialwhiletheydespiseandoverlookthosewhomaybeweakandpooreventhoughacknowledgingthemtobebetterthantheothersbutmostextraordinaryofallistheirmodeofspeakingaboutvirtueandthegodstheysaythatthegodsapportioncalamityandmiserytomanygoodmenandgoodandhappinesstothewickedandmendicantprophetsgotorichmensdoorsandpersuadethemthattheyhaveapowercommittedtothembythegodsofmakinganatonementforamansownorhisancestorssinsbysacrificesorcharmswithrejoicingsandfeastsandtheypromisetoharmanenemywhetherjustorunjustatasmallcostwithmagicartsandincantationsbindingheavenastheysaytoexecutetheirwillandthepoetsaretheauthoritiestowhomtheyappealnowsmoothingthepathofvicewiththewordsofhesiodvicemaybehadinabundancewithouttroublethewayissmoothandherdwellingplaceisnearbutbeforevirtuethegodshavesettoilandatediousanduphillroadthencitinghomerasawitnessthatthegodsmaybeinfluencedbymenforhealsosaysthegodstoomaybeturnedfromtheirpurposeandmenpraytothemandaverttheirwrathbysacrificesandsoothingentreatiesandbylibationsandtheodouroffatwhentheyhavesinnedandtransgressedandtheyproduceahostofbookswrittenbymusaeusandorpheuswhowerechildrenofthemoonandthemusesthatiswhattheysayaccordingtowhichtheyperformtheirritualandpersuadenotonlyindividualsbutwholecitiesthatexpiationsandatonementsforsinmaybemadebysacrificesandamusementswhichfillavacanthourandareequallyattheserviceofthelivingandthedeadthelattersorttheycallmysteriesandtheyredeemusfromthepainsofhellbutifweneglectthemnooneknowswhatawaitsusheproceededandnowwhentheyounghearallthissaidaboutvirtueandviceandthewayinwhichgodsandmenregardthemhowaretheirmindslikelytobeaffectedmydearsocratesthoseofthemimeanwhoarequickwittedandlikebeesonthewinglightoneveryflowerandfromallthattheyheararepronetodrawconclusionsastowhatmannerofpersonstheyshouldbeandinwhatwaytheyshouldwalkiftheywouldmakethebestoflifeprobablytheyouthwillsaytohimselfinthewordsofpindarcanibyjusticeorbycrookedwaysofdeceitascendaloftiertowerwhichmaybeafortresstomeallmydaysforwhatmensayisthatifiamreallyjustandamnotalsothoughtjustprofitthereisnonebutthepainandlossontheotherhandareunmistakeablebutifthoughunjustiacquirethereputationofjusticeaheavenlylifeispromisedtomesincethenasphilosophersproveappearancetyrannizesovertruthandislordofhappinesstoappearanceimustdevotemyselfiwilldescribearoundmeapictureandshadowofvirtuetobethevestibuleandexteriorofmyhousebehindiwilltrailthesubtleandcraftyfoxasarchilochusgreatestofsagesrecommendsbutihearsomeoneexclaimingthattheconcealmentofwickednessisoftendifficulttowhichianswernothinggreatiseasyneverthelesstheargumentindicatesthisifwewouldbehappytobethepathalongwhichweshouldproceedwithaviewtoconcealmentwewillestablishsecretbrotherhoodsandpoliticalclubsandthereareprofessorsofrhetoricwhoteachtheartofpersuadingcourtsandassembliesandsopartlybypersuasionandpartlybyforceishallmakeunlawfulgainsandnotbepunishedstillihearavoicesayingthatthegodscannotbedeceivedneithercantheybecompelledbutwhatiftherearenogodsorsupposethemtohavenocareofhumanthingswhyineithercaseshouldwemindaboutconcealmentandeveniftherearegodsandtheydocareaboutusyetweknowofthemonlyfromtraditionandthegenealogiesofthepoetsandthesearetheverypersonswhosaythattheymaybeinfluencedandturnedbysacrificesandsoothingentreatiesandbyofferingsletusbeconsistentthenandbelievebothorneitherifthepoetsspeaktrulywhythenwehadbetterbeunjustandofferofthefruitsofinjusticeforifwearejustalthoughwemayescapethevengeanceofheavenweshalllosethegainsofinjusticebutifweareunjustweshallkeepthegainsandbyoursinningandprayingandprayingandsinningthegodswillbepropitiatedandweshallnotbepunishedbutthereisaworldbelowinwhicheitherweorourposteritywillsufferforourunjustdeedsyesmyfriendwillbethereflectionbuttherearemysteriesandatoningdeitiesandthesehavegreatpowerthatiswhatmightycitiesdeclareandthechildrenofthegodswhoweretheirpoetsandprophetsbearaliketestimonyonwhatprinciplethenshallweanylongerchoosejusticeratherthantheworstinjusticewhenifweonlyunitethelatterwithadeceitfulregardtoappearancesweshallfaretoourmindbothwithgodsandmeninlifeandafterdeathasthemostnumerousandthehighestauthoritiestellusknowingallthissocrateshowcanamanwhohasanysuperiorityofmindorpersonorrankorwealthbewillingtohonourjusticeorindeedtorefrainfromlaughingwhenhehearsjusticepraisedandevenifthereshouldbesomeonewhoisabletodisprovethetruthofmywordsandwhoissatisfiedthatjusticeisbeststillheisnotangrywiththeunjustbutisveryreadytoforgivethembecausehealsoknowsthatmenarenotjustoftheirownfreewillunlessperadventuretherebesomeonewhomthedivinitywithinhimmayhaveinspiredwithahatredofinjusticeorwhohasattainedknowledgeofthetruthbutnoothermanheonlyblamesinjusticewhoowingtocowardiceorageorsomeweaknesshasnotthepowerofbeingunjustandthisisprovedbythefactthatwhenheobtainsthepowerheimmediatelybecomesunjustasfarashecanbethecauseofallthissocrateswasindicatedbyusatthebeginningoftheargumentwhenmybrotheranditoldyouhowastonishedweweretofindthatofalltheprofessingpanegyristsofjusticebeginningwiththeancientheroesofwhomanymemorialhasbeenpreservedtousandendingwiththemenofourowntimenoonehaseverblamedinjusticeorpraisedjusticeexceptwithaviewtotheglorieshonoursandbenefitswhichflowfromthemnoonehaseveradequatelydescribedeitherinverseorprosethetrueessentialnatureofeitherofthemabidinginthesoulandinvisibletoanyhumanordivineeyeorshownthatofallthethingsofamanssoulwhichhehaswithinhimjusticeisthegreatestgoodandinjusticethegreatestevilhadthisbeentheuniversalstrainhadyousoughttopersuadeusofthisfromouryouthupwardsweshouldnothavebeenonthewatchtokeeponeanotherfromdoingwrongbuteveryonewouldhavebeenhisownwatchmanbecauseafraidifhedidwrongofharbouringinhimselfthegreatestofevilsidaresaythatthrasymachusandotherswouldseriouslyholdthelanguagewhichihavebeenmerelyrepeatingandwordsevenstrongerthantheseaboutjusticeandinjusticegrosslyasiconceivepervertingtheirtruenaturebutispeakinthisvehementmannerasimustfranklyconfesstoyoubecauseiwanttohearfromyoutheoppositesideandiwouldaskyoutoshownotonlythesuperioritywhichjusticehasoverinjusticebutwhateffecttheyhaveonthepossessorofthemwhichmakestheonetobeagoodandtheotheraneviltohimandpleaseasglauconrequestedofyoutoexcludereputationsforunlessyoutakeawayfromeachofthemhistruereputationandaddonthefalseweshallsaythatyoudonotpraisejusticebuttheappearanceofitweshallthinkthatyouareonlyexhortingustokeepinjusticedarkandthatyoureallyagreewiththrasymachusinthinkingthatjusticeisanothersgoodandtheinterestofthestrongerandthatinjusticeisamansownprofitandinterestthoughinjurioustotheweakernowasyouhaveadmittedthatjusticeisoneofthathighestclassofgoodswhicharedesiredindeedfortheirresultsbutinafargreaterdegreefortheirownsakeslikesightorhearingorknowledgeorhealthoranyotherrealandnaturalandnotmerelyconventionalgoodiwouldaskyouinyourpraiseofjusticetoregardonepointonlyimeantheessentialgoodandevilwhichjusticeandinjusticeworkinthepossessorsofthemletotherspraisejusticeandcensureinjusticemagnifyingtherewardsandhonoursoftheoneandabusingtheotherthatisamannerofarguingwhichcomingfromthemiamreadytotoleratebutfromyouwhohavespentyourwholelifeintheconsiderationofthisquestionunlessihearthecontraryfromyourownlipsiexpectsomethingbetterandthereforeisaynotonlyprovetousthatjusticeisbetterthaninjusticebutshowwhattheyeitherofthemdotothepossessorofthemwhichmakestheonetobeagoodandtheotheranevilwhetherseenorunseenbygodsandmenihadalwaysadmiredthegeniusofglauconandadeimantusbutonhearingthesewordsiwasquitedelightedandsaidsonsofanillustriousfatherthatwasnotabadbeginningoftheelegiacverseswhichtheadmirerofglauconmadeinhonourofyouafteryouhaddistinguishedyourselvesatthebattleofmegarasonsofaristonhesangdivineoffspringofanillustriousherotheepithetisveryappropriateforthereissomethingtrulydivineinbeingabletoargueasyouhavedoneforthesuperiorityofinjusticeandremainingunconvincedbyyourownargumentsandidobelievethatyouarenotconvincedthisiinferfromyourgeneralcharacterforhadijudgedonlyfromyourspeechesishouldhavemistrustedyoubutnowthegreatermyconfidenceinyouthegreaterismydifficultyinknowingwhattosayforiaminastraitbetweentwoontheonehandifeelthatiamunequaltothetaskandmyinabilityisbroughthometomebythefactthatyouwerenotsatisfiedwiththeanswerwhichimadetothrasymachusprovingasithoughtthesuperioritywhichjusticehasoverinjusticeandyeticannotrefusetohelpwhilebreathandspeechremaintomeiamafraidthattherewouldbeanimpietyinbeingpresentwhenjusticeisevilspokenofandnotliftingupahandinherdefenceandthereforeihadbestgivesuchhelpasicanglauconandtherestentreatedmebyallmeansnottoletthequestiondropbuttoproceedintheinvestigationtheywantedtoarriveatthetruthfirstaboutthenatureofjusticeandinjusticeandsecondlyabouttheirrelativeadvantagesitoldthemwhatireallythoughtthattheenquirywouldbeofaseriousnatureandwouldrequireverygoodeyesseeingthenisaidthatwearenogreatwitsithinkthatwehadbetteradoptamethodwhichimayillustratethussupposethatashortsightedpersonhadbeenaskedbysomeonetoreadsmalllettersfromadistanceanditoccurredtosomeoneelsethattheymightbefoundinanotherplacewhichwaslargerandinwhichtheletterswerelargeriftheywerethesameandhecouldreadthelargerlettersfirstandthenproceedtothelesserthiswouldhavebeenthoughtararepieceofgoodfortuneverytruesaidadeimantusbuthowdoestheillustrationapplytoourenquiryiwilltellyouirepliedjusticewhichisthesubjectofourenquiryisasyouknowsometimesspokenofasthevirtueofanindividualandsometimesasthevirtueofastatetrueherepliedandisnotastatelargerthananindividualitistheninthelargerthequantityofjusticeislikelytobelargerandmoreeasilydiscernibleiproposethereforethatweenquireintothenatureofjusticeandinjusticefirstastheyappearinthestateandsecondlyintheindividualproceedingfromthegreatertothelesserandcomparingthemthathesaidisanexcellentproposalandifweimaginethestateinprocessofcreationweshallseethejusticeandinjusticeofthestateinprocessofcreationalsoidaresaywhenthestateiscompletedtheremaybeahopethattheobjectofoursearchwillbemoreeasilydiscoveredyesfarmoreeasilybutoughtwetoattempttoconstructoneisaidfortodosoasiaminclinedtothinkwillbeaveryserioustaskreflectthereforeihavereflectedsaidadeimantusandamanxiousthatyoushouldproceedastateisaidarisesasiconceiveoutoftheneedsofmankindnooneisselfsufficingbutallofushavemanywantscananyotheroriginofastatebeimaginedtherecanbenootherthenaswehavemanywantsandmanypersonsareneededtosupplythemonetakesahelperforonepurposeandanotherforanotherandwhenthesepartnersandhelpersaregatheredtogetherinonehabitationthebodyofinhabitantsistermedastatetruehesaidandtheyexchangewithoneanotherandonegivesandanotherreceivesundertheideathattheexchangewillbefortheirgoodverytruethenisaidletusbeginandcreateinideaastateandyetthetruecreatorisnecessitywhoisthemotherofourinventionofcourseherepliednowthefirstandgreatestofnecessitiesisfoodwhichistheconditionoflifeandexistencecertainlythesecondisadwellingandthethirdclothingandtheliketrueandnowletusseehowourcitywillbeabletosupplythisgreatdemandwemaysupposethatonemanisahusbandmananotherabuildersomeoneelseaweavershallweaddtothemashoemakerorperhapssomeotherpurveyortoourbodilywantsquiterightthebarestnotionofastatemustincludefourorfivemenclearlyandhowwilltheyproceedwilleachbringtheresultofhislaboursintoacommonstocktheindividualhusbandmanforexampleproducingforfourandlabouringfourtimesaslongandasmuchasheneedintheprovisionoffoodwithwhichhesuppliesothersaswellashimselforwillhehavenothingtodowithothersandnotbeatthetroubleofproducingforthembutprovideforhimselfaloneafourthofthefoodinafourthofthetimeandintheremainingthreefourthsofhistimebeemployedinmakingahouseoracoatorapairofshoeshavingnopartnershipwithothersbutsupplyinghimselfallhisownwantsadeimantusthoughtthatheshouldaimatproducingfoodonlyandnotatproducingeverythingprobablyirepliedthatwouldbethebetterwayandwhenihearyousaythisiammyselfremindedthatwearenotallaliketherearediversitiesofnaturesamonguswhichareadaptedtodifferentoccupationsverytrueandwillyouhaveaworkbetterdonewhentheworkmanhasmanyoccupationsorwhenhehasonlyonewhenhehasonlyonefurthertherecanbenodoubtthataworkisspoiltwhennotdoneattherighttimenodoubtforbusinessisnotdisposedtowaituntilthedoerofthebusinessisatleisurebutthedoermustfollowupwhatheisdoingandmakethebusinesshisfirstobjecthemustandifsowemustinferthatallthingsareproducedmoreplentifullyandeasilyandofabetterqualitywhenonemandoesonethingwhichisnaturaltohimanddoesitattherighttimeandleavesotherthingsundoubtedlythenmorethanfourcitizenswillberequiredforthehusbandmanwillnotmakehisownploughormattockorotherimplementsofagricultureiftheyaretobegoodforanythingneitherwillthebuildermakehistoolsandhetooneedsmanyandinlikemannertheweaverandshoemakertruethencarpentersandsmithsandmanyotherartisanswillbesharersinourlittlestatewhichisalreadybeginningtogrowtrueyetevenifweaddneatherdsshepherdsandotherherdsmeninorderthatourhusbandmenmayhaveoxentoploughwithandbuildersaswellashusbandmenmayhavedraughtcattleandcurriersandweaversfleecesandhidesstillourstatewillnotbeverylargethatistrueyetneitherwillitbeaverysmallstatewhichcontainsallthesethenagainthereisthesituationofthecitytofindaplacewherenothingneedbeimportediswellnighimpossibleimpossiblethentheremustbeanotherclassofcitizenswhowillbringtherequiredsupplyfromanothercitytheremustbutifthetradergoesemptyhandedhavingnothingwhichtheyrequirewhowouldsupplyhisneedhewillcomebackemptyhandedthatiscertainandthereforewhattheyproduceathomemustbenotonlyenoughforthemselvesbutsuchbothinquantityandqualityastoaccommodatethosefromwhomtheirwantsaresuppliedverytruethenmorehusbandmenandmoreartisanswillberequiredtheywillnottomentiontheimportersandexporterswhoarecalledmerchantsyesthenweshallwantmerchantsweshallandifmerchandiseistobecarriedovertheseaskilfulsailorswillalsobeneededandinconsiderablenumbersyesinconsiderablenumbersthenagainwithinthecityhowwilltheyexchangetheirproductionstosecuresuchanexchangewasasyouwillrememberoneofourprincipalobjectswhenweformedthemintoasocietyandconstitutedastateclearlytheywillbuyandsellthentheywillneedamarketplaceandamoneytokenforpurposesofexchangecertainlysupposenowthatahusbandmanoranartisanbringssomeproductiontomarketandhecomesatatimewhenthereisnoonetoexchangewithhimishetoleavehiscallingandsitidleinthemarketplacenotatallhewillfindpeopletherewhoseeingthewantundertaketheofficeofsalesmeninwellorderedstatestheyarecommonlythosewhoaretheweakestinbodilystrengthandthereforeoflittleuseforanyotherpurposetheirdutyistobeinthemarketandtogivemoneyinexchangeforgoodstothosewhodesiretosellandtotakemoneyfromthosewhodesiretobuythiswantthencreatesaclassofretailtradersinourstateisnotretailerthetermwhichisappliedtothosewhositinthemarketplaceengagedinbuyingandsellingwhilethosewhowanderfromonecitytoanotherarecalledmerchantsyeshesaidandthereisanotherclassofservantswhoareintellectuallyhardlyonthelevelofcompanionshipstilltheyhaveplentyofbodilystrengthforlabourwhichaccordinglytheysellandarecalledifidonotmistakehirelingshirebeingthenamewhichisgiventothepriceoftheirlabourtruethenhirelingswillhelptomakeupourpopulationyesandnowadeimantusisourstatematuredandperfectedithinksowherethenisjusticeandwhereisinjusticeandinwhatpartofthestatedidtheyspringupprobablyinthedealingsofthesecitizenswithoneanothericannotimaginethattheyaremorelikelytobefoundanywhereelseidaresaythatyouarerightinyoursuggestionisaidwehadbetterthinkthematteroutandnotshrinkfromtheenquiryletusthenconsiderfirstofallwhatwillbetheirwayoflifenowthatwehavethusestablishedthemwilltheynotproducecornandwineandclothesandshoesandbuildhousesforthemselvesandwhentheyarehousedtheywillworkinsummercommonlystrippedandbarefootbutinwintersubstantiallyclothedandshodtheywillfeedonbarleymealandflourofwheatbakingandkneadingthemmakingnoblecakesandloavesthesetheywillserveuponamatofreedsoroncleanleavesthemselvesrecliningthewhileuponbedsstrewnwithyewormyrtleandtheyandtheirchildrenwillfeastdrinkingofthewinewhichtheyhavemadewearinggarlandsontheirheadsandhymningthepraisesofthegodsinhappyconversewithoneanotherandtheywilltakecarethattheirfamiliesdonotexceedtheirmeanshavinganeyetopovertyorwarbutsaidglauconinterposingyouhavenotgiventhemarelishtotheirmealtrueirepliedihadforgottenofcoursetheymusthavearelishsaltandolivesandcheeseandtheywillboilrootsandherbssuchascountrypeopleprepareforadessertweshallgivethemfigsandpeasandbeansandtheywillroastmyrtleberriesandacornsatthefiredrinkinginmoderationandwithsuchadiettheymaybeexpectedtoliveinpeaceandhealthtoagoodoldageandbequeathasimilarlifetotheirchildrenafterthemyessocrateshesaidandifyouwereprovidingforacityofpigshowelsewouldyoufeedthebeastsbutwhatwouldyouhaveglauconirepliedwhyhesaidyoushouldgivethemtheordinaryconveniencesoflifepeoplewhoaretobecomfortableareaccustomedtolieonsofasanddineofftablesandtheyshouldhavesaucesandsweetsinthemodernstyleyesisaidnowiunderstandthequestionwhichyouwouldhavemeconsiderisnotonlyhowastatebuthowaluxuriousstateiscreatedandpossiblythereisnoharminthisforinsuchastateweshallbemorelikelytoseehowjusticeandinjusticeoriginateinmyopinionthetrueandhealthyconstitutionofthestateistheonewhichihavedescribedbutifyouwishalsotoseeastateatfeverheatihavenoobjectionforisuspectthatmanywillnotbesatisfiedwiththesimplerwayoflifetheywillbeforaddingsofasandtablesandotherfurniturealsodaintiesandperfumesandincenseandcourtesansandcakesallthesenotofonesortonlybutineveryvarietywemustgobeyondthenecessariesofwhichiwasatfirstspeakingsuchashousesandclothesandshoestheartsofthepainterandtheembroidererwillhavetobesetinmotionandgoldandivoryandallsortsofmaterialsmustbeprocuredtruehesaidthenwemustenlargeourbordersfortheoriginalhealthystateisnolongersufficientnowwillthecityhavetofillandswellwithamultitudeofcallingswhicharenotrequiredbyanynaturalwantsuchasthewholetribeofhuntersandactorsofwhomonelargeclasshavetodowithformsandcoloursanotherwillbethevotariesofmusicpoetsandtheirattendanttrainofrhapsodistsplayersdancerscontractorsalsomakersofdiverskindsofarticlesincludingwomensdressesandweshallwantmoreservantswillnottutorsbealsoinrequestandnurseswetanddrytirewomenandbarbersaswellasconfectionersandcooksandswineherdstoowhowerenotneededandthereforehadnoplaceintheformereditionofourstatebutareneedednowtheymustnotbeforgottenandtherewillbeanimalsofmanyotherkindsifpeopleeatthemcertainlyandlivinginthiswayweshallhavemuchgreaterneedofphysiciansthanbeforemuchgreaterandthecountrywhichwasenoughtosupporttheoriginalinhabitantswillbetoosmallnowandnotenoughquitetruethenasliceofourneighbourslandwillbewantedbyusforpastureandtillageandtheywillwantasliceofoursiflikeourselvestheyexceedthelimitofnecessityandgivethemselvesuptotheunlimitedaccumulationofwealththatsocrateswillbeinevitableandsoweshallgotowarglauconshallwenotmostcertainlyherepliedthenwithoutdeterminingasyetwhetherwardoesgoodorharmthusmuchwemayaffirmthatnowwehavediscoveredwartobederivedfromcauseswhicharealsothecausesofalmostalltheevilsinstatesprivateaswellaspublicundoubtedlyandourstatemustoncemoreenlargeandthistimetheenlargementwillbenothingshortofawholearmywhichwillhavetogooutandfightwiththeinvadersforallthatwehaveaswellasforthethingsandpersonswhomweweredescribingabovewhyhesaidaretheynotcapableofdefendingthemselvesnoisaidnotifwewererightintheprinciplewhichwasacknowledgedbyallofuswhenwewereframingthestatetheprincipleasyouwillrememberwasthatonemancannotpractisemanyartswithsuccessverytruehesaidbutisnotwaranartcertainlyandanartrequiringasmuchattentionasshoemakingquitetrueandtheshoemakerwasnotallowedbyustobeahusbandmanoraweaverorabuilderinorderthatwemighthaveourshoeswellmadebuttohimandtoeveryotherworkerwasassignedoneworkforwhichhewasbynaturefittedandatthathewastocontinueworkingallhislifelongandatnootherhewasnottoletopportunitiesslipandthenhewouldbecomeagoodworkmannownothingcanbemoreimportantthanthattheworkofasoldiershouldbewelldonebutiswaranartsoeasilyacquiredthatamanmaybeawarriorwhoisalsoahusbandmanorshoemakerorotherartisanalthoughnooneintheworldwouldbeagooddiceordraughtplayerwhomerelytookupthegameasarecreationandhadnotfromhisearliestyearsdevotedhimselftothisandnothingelsenotoolswillmakeamanaskilledworkmanormasterofdefencenorbeofanyusetohimwhohasnotlearnedhowtohandlethemandhasneverbestowedanyattentionuponthemhowthenwillhewhotakesupashieldorotherimplementofwarbecomeagoodfighterallinadaywhetherwithheavyarmedoranyotherkindoftroopsyeshesaidthetoolswhichwouldteachmentheirownusewouldbebeyondpriceandthehigherthedutiesoftheguardianisaidthemoretimeandskillandartandapplicationwillbeneededbyhimnodoubtherepliedwillhenotalsorequirenaturalaptitudeforhiscallingcertainlythenitwillbeourdutytoselectifwecannatureswhicharefittedforthetaskofguardingthecityitwillandtheselectionwillbenoeasymatterisaidbutwemustbebraveanddoourbestwemustisnotthenobleyouthverylikeawellbreddoginrespectofguardingandwatchingwhatdoyoumeanimeanthatbothofthemoughttobequicktoseeandswifttoovertaketheenemywhentheyseehimandstrongtooifwhentheyhavecaughthimtheyhavetofightwithhimallthesequalitiesherepliedwillcertainlyberequiredbythemwellandyourguardianmustbebraveifheistofightwellcertainlyandishelikelytobebravewhohasnospiritwhetherhorseordogoranyotheranimalhaveyouneverobservedhowinvincibleandunconquerableisspiritandhowthepresenceofitmakesthesoulofanycreaturetobeabsolutelyfearlessandindomitableihavethennowwehaveaclearnotionofthebodilyqualitieswhicharerequiredintheguardiantrueandalsoofthementaloneshissoulistobefullofspirityesbutarenotthesespiritednaturesapttobesavagewithoneanotherandwitheverybodyelseadifficultybynomeanseasytoovercomeherepliedwhereasisaidtheyoughttobedangeroustotheirenemiesandgentletotheirfriendsifnottheywilldestroythemselveswithoutwaitingfortheirenemiestodestroythemtruehesaidwhatistobedonethenisaidhowshallwefindagentlenaturewhichhasalsoagreatspiritfortheoneisthecontradictionoftheothertruehewillnotbeagoodguardianwhoiswantingineitherofthesetwoqualitiesandyetthecombinationofthemappearstobeimpossibleandhencewemustinferthattobeagoodguardianisimpossibleiamafraidthatwhatyousayistrueherepliedherefeelingperplexedibegantothinkoverwhathadprecededmyfriendisaidnowonderthatweareinaperplexityforwehavelostsightoftheimagewhichwehadbeforeuswhatdoyoumeanhesaidimeantosaythattheredoexistnaturesgiftedwiththoseoppositequalitiesandwheredoyoufindthemmanyanimalsirepliedfurnishexamplesofthemourfriendthedogisaverygoodoneyouknowthatwellbreddogsareperfectlygentletotheirfamiliarsandacquaintancesandthereversetostrangersyesiknowthenthereisnothingimpossibleoroutoftheorderofnatureinourfindingaguardianwhohasasimilarcombinationofqualitiescertainlynotwouldnothewhoisfittedtobeaguardianbesidesthespiritednatureneedtohavethequalitiesofaphilosopheridonotapprehendyourmeaningthetraitofwhichiamspeakingirepliedmaybealsoseeninthedogandisremarkableintheanimalwhattraitwhyadogwheneverheseesastrangerisangrywhenanacquaintancehewelcomeshimalthoughtheonehasneverdonehimanyharmnortheotheranygooddidthisneverstrikeyouascuriousthematterneverstruckmebeforebutiquiterecognisethetruthofyourremarkandsurelythisinstinctofthedogisverycharmingyourdogisatruephilosopherwhywhybecausehedistinguishesthefaceofafriendandofanenemyonlybythecriterionofknowingandnotknowingandmustnotananimalbealoveroflearningwhodetermineswhathelikesanddislikesbythetestofknowledgeandignorancemostassuredlyandisnottheloveoflearningtheloveofwisdomwhichisphilosophytheyarethesameherepliedandmaywenotsayconfidentlyofmanalsothathewhoislikelytobegentletohisfriendsandacquaintancesmustbynaturebealoverofwisdomandknowledgethatwemaysafelyaffirmthenhewhoistobeareallygoodandnobleguardianofthestatewillrequiretouniteinhimselfphilosophyandspiritandswiftnessandstrengthundoubtedlythenwehavefoundthedesirednaturesandnowthatwehavefoundthemhowaretheytoberearedandeducatedisnotthisanenquirywhichmaybeexpectedtothrowlightonthegreaterenquirywhichisourfinalendhowdojusticeandinjusticegrowupinstatesforwedonotwanteithertoomitwhatistothepointortodrawouttheargumenttoaninconvenientlengthadeimantusthoughtthattheenquirywouldbeofgreatservicetousthenisaidmydearfriendthetaskmustnotbegivenupevenifsomewhatlongcertainlynotcomethenandletuspassaleisurehourinstorytellingandourstoryshallbetheeducationofourheroesbyallmeansandwhatshallbetheireducationcanwefindabetterthanthetraditionalsortandthishastwodivisionsgymnasticforthebodyandmusicforthesoultrueshallwebegineducationwithmusicandgoontogymnasticafterwardsbyallmeansandwhenyouspeakofmusicdoyouincludeliteratureornotidoandliteraturemaybeeithertrueorfalseyesandtheyoungshouldbetrainedinbothkindsandwebeginwiththefalseidonotunderstandyourmeaninghesaidyouknowisaidthatwebeginbytellingchildrenstorieswhichthoughnotwhollydestituteoftruthareinthemainfictitiousandthesestoriesaretoldthemwhentheyarenotofanagetolearngymnasticsverytruethatwasmymeaningwhenisaidthatwemustteachmusicbeforegymnasticsquiterighthesaidyouknowalsothatthebeginningisthemostimportantpartofanyworkespeciallyinthecaseofayoungandtenderthingforthatisthetimeatwhichthecharacterisbeingformedandthedesiredimpressionismorereadilytakenquitetrueandshallwejustcarelesslyallowchildrentohearanycasualtaleswhichmaybedevisedbycasualpersonsandtoreceiveintotheirmindsideasforthemostparttheveryoppositeofthosewhichweshouldwishthemtohavewhentheyaregrownupwecannotthenthefirstthingwillbetoestablishacensorshipofthewritersoffictionandletthecensorsreceiveanytaleoffictionwhichisgoodandrejectthebadandwewilldesiremothersandnursestotelltheirchildrentheauthorisedonesonlyletthemfashionthemindwithsuchtalesevenmorefondlythantheymouldthebodywiththeirhandsbutmostofthosewhicharenowinusemustbediscardedofwhattalesareyouspeakinghesaidyoumayfindamodelofthelesserinthegreaterisaidfortheyarenecessarilyofthesametypeandthereisthesamespiritinbothofthemverylikelyherepliedbutidonotasyetknowwhatyouwouldtermthegreaterthoseisaidwhicharenarratedbyhomerandhesiodandtherestofthepoetswhohaveeverbeenthegreatstorytellersofmankindbutwhichstoriesdoyoumeanhesaidandwhatfaultdoyoufindwiththemafaultwhichismostseriousisaidthefaultoftellingalieandwhatismoreabadliebutwhenisthisfaultcommittedwheneveranerroneousrepresentationismadeofthenatureofgodsandheroesaswhenapainterpaintsaportraitnothavingtheshadowofalikenesstotheoriginalyeshesaidthatsortofthingiscertainlyveryblameablebutwhatarethestorieswhichyoumeanfirstofallisaidtherewasthatgreatestofallliesinhighplaceswhichthepoettoldabouturanusandwhichwasabadlietooimeanwhathesiodsaysthaturanusdidandhowcronusretaliatedonhimthedoingsofcronusandthesufferingswhichinturnhissoninflicteduponhimeveniftheyweretrueoughtcertainlynottobelightlytoldtoyoungandthoughtlesspersonsifpossibletheyhadbetterbeburiedinsilencebutifthereisanabsolutenecessityfortheirmentionachosenfewmightheartheminamysteryandtheyshouldsacrificenotacommoneleusinianpigbutsomehugeandunprocurablevictimandthenthenumberofthehearerswillbeveryfewindeedwhyyessaidhethosestoriesareextremelyobjectionableyesadeimantustheyarestoriesnottoberepeatedinourstatetheyoungmanshouldnotbetoldthatincommittingtheworstofcrimesheisfarfromdoinganythingoutrageousandthatevenifhechastiseshisfatherwhenhedoeswronginwhatevermannerhewillonlybefollowingtheexampleofthefirstandgreatestamongthegodsientirelyagreewithyouhesaidinmyopinionthosestoriesarequiteunfittoberepeatedneitherifwemeanourfutureguardianstoregardthehabitofquarrellingamongthemselvesasofallthingsthebasestshouldanywordbesaidtothemofthewarsinheavenandoftheplotsandfightingsofthegodsagainstoneanotherfortheyarenottruenoweshallnevermentionthebattlesofthegiantsorletthembeembroideredongarmentsandweshallbesilentabouttheinnumerableotherquarrelsofgodsandheroeswiththeirfriendsandrelativesiftheywouldonlybelieveuswewouldtellthemthatquarrellingisunholyandthatneveruptothistimehastherebeenanyquarrelbetweencitizensthisiswhatoldmenandoldwomenshouldbeginbytellingchildrenandwhentheygrowupthepoetsalsoshouldbetoldtocomposefortheminasimilarspiritbutthenarrativeofhephaestusbindingherehismotherorhowonanotheroccasionzeussenthimflyingfortakingherpartwhenshewasbeingbeatenandallthebattlesofthegodsinhomerthesetalesmustnotbeadmittedintoourstatewhethertheyaresupposedtohaveanallegoricalmeaningornotforayoungpersoncannotjudgewhatisallegoricalandwhatisliteralanythingthathereceivesintohismindatthatageislikelytobecomeindelibleandunalterableandthereforeitismostimportantthatthetaleswhichtheyoungfirsthearshouldbemodelsofvirtuousthoughtsthereyouarerightherepliedbutifanyoneaskswherearesuchmodelstobefoundandofwhattalesareyouspeakinghowshallweanswerhimisaidtohimyouandiadeimantusatthismomentarenotpoetsbutfoundersofastatenowthefoundersofastateoughttoknowthegeneralformsinwhichpoetsshouldcasttheirtalesandthelimitswhichmustbeobservedbythembuttomakethetalesisnottheirbusinessverytruehesaidbutwhataretheseformsoftheologywhichyoumeansomethingofthiskindirepliedgodisalwaystoberepresentedashetrulyiswhateverbethesortofpoetryepiclyricortragicinwhichtherepresentationisgivenrightandishenottrulygoodandmusthenotberepresentedassuchcertainlyandnogoodthingishurtfulnoindeedandthatwhichisnothurtfulhurtsnotcertainlynotandthatwhichhurtsnotdoesnoevilnoandcanthatwhichdoesnoevilbeacauseofevilimpossibleandthegoodisadvantageousyesandthereforethecauseofwellbeingyesitfollowsthereforethatthegoodisnotthecauseofallthingsbutofthegoodonlyassuredlythengodifhebegoodisnottheauthorofallthingsasthemanyassertbutheisthecauseofafewthingsonlyandnotofmostthingsthatoccurtomenforfewarethegoodsofhumanlifeandmanyaretheevilsandthegoodistobeattributedtogodaloneoftheevilsthecausesaretobesoughtelsewhereandnotinhimthatappearstometobemosttruehesaidthenwemustnotlistentohomerortoanyotherpoetwhoisguiltyofthefollyofsayingthattwocaskslieatthethresholdofzeusfulloflotsoneofgoodtheotherofevillotsandthathetowhomzeusgivesamixtureofthetwosometimesmeetswithevilfortuneatothertimeswithgoodbutthathetowhomisgiventhecupofunmingledillhimwildhungerdrivesoerthebeauteousearthandagainzeuswhoisthedispenserofgoodandeviltousandifanyoneassertsthattheviolationofoathsandtreatieswhichwasreallytheworkofpandaruswasbroughtaboutbyatheneandzeusorthatthestrifeandcontentionofthegodswasinstigatedbythemisandzeusheshallnothaveourapprovalneitherwillweallowouryoungmentohearthewordsofaeschylusthatgodplantsguiltamongmenwhenhedesiresutterlytodestroyahouseandifapoetwritesofthesufferingsofniobethesubjectofthetragedyinwhichtheseiambicversesoccurorofthehouseofpelopsorofthetrojanwaroronanysimilarthemeeitherwemustnotpermithimtosaythatthesearetheworksofgodoriftheyareofgodhemustdevisesomeexplanationofthemsuchasweareseekinghemustsaythatgoddidwhatwasjustandrightandtheywerethebetterforbeingpunishedbutthatthosewhoarepunishedaremiserableandthatgodistheauthoroftheirmiserythepoetisnottobepermittedtosaythoughhemaysaythatthewickedaremiserablebecausetheyrequiretobepunishedandarebenefitedbyreceivingpunishmentfromgodbutthatgodbeinggoodistheauthorofeviltoanyoneistobestrenuouslydeniedandnottobesaidorsungorheardinverseorprosebyanyonewhetheroldoryounginanywellorderedcommonwealthsuchafictionissuicidalruinousimpiousiagreewithyouherepliedandamreadytogivemyassenttothelawletthisthenbeoneofourrulesandprinciplesconcerningthegodstowhichourpoetsandreciterswillbeexpectedtoconformthatgodisnottheauthorofallthingsbutofgoodonlythatwilldohesaidandwhatdoyouthinkofasecondprincipleshalliaskyouwhethergodisamagicianandofanaturetoappearinsidiouslynowinoneshapeandnowinanothersometimeshimselfchangingandpassingintomanyformssometimesdeceivinguswiththesemblanceofsuchtransformationsorisheoneandthesameimmutablyfixedinhisownproperimageicannotansweryouhesaidwithoutmorethoughtwellisaidbutifwesupposeachangeinanythingthatchangemustbeeffectedeitherbythethingitselforbysomeotherthingmostcertainlyandthingswhichareattheirbestarealsoleastliabletobealteredordiscomposedforexamplewhenhealthiestandstrongestthehumanframeisleastliabletobeaffectedbymeatsanddrinksandtheplantwhichisinthefullestvigouralsosuffersleastfromwindsortheheatofthesunoranysimilarcausesofcourseandwillnotthebravestandwisestsoulbeleastconfusedorderangedbyanyexternalinfluencetrueandthesameprincipleasishouldsupposeappliestoallcompositethingsfurniturehousesgarmentswhengoodandwellmadetheyareleastalteredbytimeandcircumstancesverytruetheneverythingwhichisgoodwhethermadebyartornatureorbothisleastliabletosufferchangefromwithouttruebutsurelygodandthethingsofgodareineverywayperfectofcoursetheyarethenhecanhardlybecompelledbyexternalinfluencetotakemanyshapeshecannotbutmayhenotchangeandtransformhimselfclearlyhesaidthatmustbethecaseifheischangedatallandwillhethenchangehimselfforthebetterandfairerorfortheworseandmoreunsightlyifhechangeatallhecanonlychangefortheworseforwecannotsupposehimtobedeficienteitherinvirtueorbeautyverytrueadeimantusbutthenwouldanyonewhethergodormandesiretomakehimselfworseimpossiblethenitisimpossiblethatgodshouldeverbewillingtochangebeingasissupposedthefairestandbestthatisconceivableeverygodremainsabsolutelyandforeverinhisownformthatnecessarilyfollowshesaidinmyjudgmentthenisaidmydearfriendletnoneofthepoetstellusthatthegodstakingthedisguiseofstrangersfromotherlandswalkupanddowncitiesinallsortsofformsandletnooneslanderproteusandthetisneitherletanyoneeitherintragedyorinanyotherkindofpoetryintroduceheredisguisedinthelikenessofapriestessaskinganalmsforthelifegivingdaughtersofinachustheriverofargosletushavenomoreliesofthatsortneithermustwehavemothersundertheinfluenceofthepoetsscaringtheirchildrenwithabadversionofthesemythstellinghowcertaingodsastheysaygoaboutbynightinthelikenessofsomanystrangersandindiversformsbutletthemtakeheedlesttheymakecowardsoftheirchildrenandatthesametimespeakblasphemyagainstthegodsheavenforbidhesaidbutalthoughthegodsarethemselvesunchangeablestillbywitchcraftanddeceptiontheymaymakeusthinkthattheyappearinvariousformsperhapsherepliedwellbutcanyouimaginethatgodwillbewillingtoliewhetherinwordordeedortoputforthaphantomofhimselficannotsayhereplieddoyounotknowisaidthatthetruelieifsuchanexpressionmaybeallowedishatedofgodsandmenwhatdoyoumeanhesaidimeanthatnooneiswillinglydeceivedinthatwhichisthetruestandhighestpartofhimselforaboutthetruestandhighestmattersthereaboveallheismostafraidofaliehavingpossessionofhimstillhesaididonotcomprehendyouthereasonisirepliedthatyouattributesomeprofoundmeaningtomywordsbutiamonlysayingthatdeceptionorbeingdeceivedoruninformedaboutthehighestrealitiesinthehighestpartofthemselveswhichisthesoulandinthatpartofthemtohaveandtoholdthelieiswhatmankindleastlikethatisayiswhattheyutterlydetestthereisnothingmorehatefultothemandasiwasjustnowremarkingthisignoranceinthesoulofhimwhoisdeceivedmaybecalledthetruelieforthelieinwordsisonlyakindofimitationandshadowyimageofapreviousaffectionofthesoulnotpureunadulteratedfalsehoodaminotrightperfectlyrightthetruelieishatednotonlybythegodsbutalsobymenyeswhereasthelieinwordsisincertaincasesusefulandnothatefulindealingwithenemiesthatwouldbeaninstanceoragainwhenthosewhomwecallourfriendsinafitofmadnessorillusionaregoingtodosomeharmthenitisusefulandisasortofmedicineorpreventivealsointhetalesofmythologyofwhichwewerejustnowspeakingbecausewedonotknowthetruthaboutancienttimeswemakefalsehoodasmuchliketruthaswecanandsoturnittoaccountverytruehesaidbutcananyofthesereasonsapplytogodcanwesupposethatheisignorantofantiquityandthereforehasrecoursetoinventionthatwouldberidiculoushesaidthenthelyingpoethasnoplaceinourideaofgodishouldsaynotorperhapshemaytellaliebecauseheisafraidofenemiesthatisinconceivablebuthemayhavefriendswhoaresenselessormadbutnomadorsenselesspersoncanbeafriendofgodthennomotivecanbeimaginedwhygodshouldlienonewhateverthenthesuperhumananddivineisabsolutelyincapableoffalsehoodyesthenisgodperfectlysimpleandtruebothinwordanddeedhechangesnothedeceivesnoteitherbysignorwordbydreamorwakingvisionyourthoughtshesaidarethereflectionofmyownyouagreewithmethenisaidthatthisisthesecondtypeorforminwhichweshouldwriteandspeakaboutdivinethingsthegodsarenotmagicianswhotransformthemselvesneitherdotheydeceivemankindinanywayigrantthatthenalthoughweareadmirersofhomerwedonotadmirethelyingdreamwhichzeussendstoagamemnonneitherwillwepraisetheversesofaeschylusinwhichthetissaysthatapolloathernuptialswascelebratinginsongherfairprogenywhosedaysweretobelongandtoknownosicknessandwhenhehadspokenofmylotasinallthingsblessedofheavenheraisedanoteoftriumphandcheeredmysoulandithoughtthatthewordofphoebusbeingdivineandfullofprophecywouldnotfailandnowhehimselfwhoutteredthestrainhewhowaspresentatthebanquetandwhosaidthisheitiswhohasslainmysonthesearethekindofsentimentsaboutthegodswhichwillarouseourangerandhewhouttersthemshallberefusedachorusneithershallweallowteacherstomakeuseofthemintheinstructionoftheyoungmeaningaswedothatourguardiansasfarasmencanbeshouldbetrueworshippersofthegodsandlikethemientirelyagreehesaidintheseprinciplesandpromisetomakethemmylawsbookiiisuchthenisaidareourprinciplesoftheologysometalesaretobetoldandothersarenottobetoldtoourdisciplesfromtheiryouthupwardsifwemeanthemtohonourthegodsandtheirparentsandtovaluefriendshipwithoneanotheryesandithinkthatourprinciplesarerighthesaidbutiftheyaretobecourageousmusttheynotlearnotherlessonsbesidestheseandlessonsofsuchakindaswilltakeawaythefearofdeathcananymanbecourageouswhohasthefearofdeathinhimcertainlynothesaidandcanhebefearlessofdeathorwillhechoosedeathinbattleratherthandefeatandslaverywhobelievestheworldbelowtoberealandterribleimpossiblethenwemustassumeacontroloverthenarratorsofthisclassoftalesaswellasovertheothersandbegthemnotsimplytorevilebutrathertocommendtheworldbelowintimatingtothemthattheirdescriptionsareuntrueandwilldoharmtoourfuturewarriorsthatwillbeourdutyhesaidthenisaidweshallhavetoobliteratemanyobnoxiouspassagesbeginningwiththeversesiwouldratherbeaserfonthelandofapoorandportionlessmanthanruleoverallthedeadwhohavecometonoughtwemustalsoexpungetheversewhichtellsushowplutofearedlestthemansionsgrimandsqualidwhichthegodsabhorshouldbeseenbothofmortalsandimmortalsandagainoheavensverilyinthehouseofhadesthereissoulandghostlyformbutnomindatallagainoftiresiastohimevenafterdeathdidpersephonegrantmindthathealoneshouldbewisebuttheothersoulsareflittingshadesagainthesoulflyingfromthelimbshadgonetohadeslamentingherfateleavingmanhoodandyouthagainandthesoulwithshrillingcrypassedlikesmokebeneaththeearthandasbatsinhollowofmysticcavernwheneveranyofthemhasdroppedoutofthestringandfallsfromtherockflyshrillingandclingtooneanothersodidtheywithshrillingcryholdtogetherastheymovedandwemustbeghomerandtheotherpoetsnottobeangryifwestrikeouttheseandsimilarpassagesnotbecausetheyareunpoeticalorunattractivetothepopularearbutbecausethegreaterthepoeticalcharmofthemthelessaretheymeetfortheearsofboysandmenwhoaremeanttobefreeandwhoshouldfearslaverymorethandeathundoubtedlyalsoweshallhavetorejectalltheterribleandappallingnameswhichdescribetheworldbelowcocytusandstyxghostsundertheearthandsaplessshadesandanysimilarwordsofwhichtheverymentioncausesashuddertopassthroughtheinmostsoulofhimwhohearsthemidonotsaythatthesehorriblestoriesmaynothaveauseofsomekindbutthereisadangerthatthenervesofourguardiansmayberenderedtooexcitableandeffeminatebythemthereisarealdangerhesaidthenwemusthavenomoreofthemtrueanotherandanoblerstrainmustbecomposedandsungbyusclearlyandshallweproceedtogetridoftheweepingsandwailingsoffamousmentheywillgowiththerestbutshallweberightingettingridofthemreflectourprincipleisthatthegoodmanwillnotconsiderdeathterribletoanyothergoodmanwhoishiscomradeyesthatisourprincipleandthereforehewillnotsorrowforhisdepartedfriendasthoughhehadsufferedanythingterriblehewillnotsuchanoneaswefurthermaintainissufficientforhimselfandhisownhappinessandthereforeisleastinneedofothermentruehesaidandforthisreasonthelossofasonorbrotherorthedeprivationoffortuneistohimofallmenleastterribleassuredlyandthereforehewillbeleastlikelytolamentandwillbearwiththegreatestequanimityanymisfortuneofthissortwhichmaybefallhimyeshewillfeelsuchamisfortunefarlessthananotherthenweshallberightingettingridofthelamentationsoffamousmenandmakingthemovertowomenandnoteventowomenwhoaregoodforanythingortomenofabasersortthatthosewhoarebeingeducatedbyustobethedefendersoftheircountrymayscorntodothelikethatwillbeveryrightthenwewilloncemoreentreathomerandtheotherpoetsnottodepictachilleswhoisthesonofagoddessfirstlyingonhissidethenonhisbackandthenonhisfacethenstartingupandsailinginafrenzyalongtheshoresofthebarrenseanowtakingthesootyashesinbothhishandsandpouringthemoverhisheadorweepingandwailinginthevariousmodeswhichhomerhasdelineatednorshouldhedescribepriamthekinsmanofthegodsasprayingandbeseechingrollinginthedirtcallingeachmanloudlybyhisnamestillmoreearnestlywillwebegofhimatalleventsnottointroducethegodslamentingandsayingalasmymiseryalasthatiborethebravesttomysorrowbutifhemustintroducethegodsatanyratelethimnotdaresocompletelytomisrepresentthegreatestofthegodsastomakehimsayoheavenswithmyeyesverilyibeholdadearfriendofminechasedroundandroundthecityandmyheartissorrowfuloragainwoeismethatiamfatedtohavesarpedondearestofmentomesubduedatthehandsofpatroclusthesonofmenoetiusforifmysweetadeimantusouryouthseriouslylistentosuchunworthyrepresentationsofthegodsinsteadoflaughingatthemastheyoughthardlywillanyofthemdeemthathehimselfbeingbutamancanbedishonouredbysimilaractionsneitherwillherebukeanyinclinationwhichmayariseinhismindtosayanddothelikeandinsteadofhavinganyshameorselfcontrolhewillbealwayswhiningandlamentingonslightoccasionsyeshesaidthatismosttrueyesirepliedbutthatsurelyiswhatoughtnottobeastheargumenthasjustprovedtousandbythatproofwemustabideuntilitisdisprovedbyabetteritoughtnottobeneitheroughtourguardianstobegiventolaughterforafitoflaughterwhichhasbeenindulgedtoexcessalmostalwaysproducesaviolentreactionsoibelievethenpersonsofworthevenifonlymortalmenmustnotberepresentedasovercomebylaughterandstilllessmustsucharepresentationofthegodsbeallowedstilllessofthegodsasyousayherepliedthenweshallnotsuffersuchanexpressiontobeusedaboutthegodsasthatofhomerwhenhedescribeshowinextinguishablelaughteraroseamongtheblessedgodswhentheysawhephaestusbustlingaboutthemansiononyourviewswemustnotadmitthemonmyviewsifyouliketofatherthemonmethatwemustnotadmitthemiscertainagaintruthshouldbehighlyvaluedifasweweresayingalieisuselesstothegodsandusefulonlyasamedicinetomenthentheuseofsuchmedicinesshouldberestrictedtophysiciansprivateindividualshavenobusinesswiththemclearlynothesaidthenifanyoneatallistohavetheprivilegeoflyingtherulersofthestateshouldbethepersonsandtheyintheirdealingseitherwithenemiesorwiththeirowncitizensmaybeallowedtolieforthepublicgoodbutnobodyelseshouldmeddlewithanythingofthekindandalthoughtherulershavethisprivilegeforaprivatemantolietotheminreturnistobedeemedamoreheinousfaultthanforthepatientorthepupilofagymnasiumnottospeakthetruthabouthisownbodilyillnessestothephysicianortothetrainerorforasailornottotellthecaptainwhatishappeningabouttheshipandtherestofthecrewandhowthingsaregoingwithhimselforhisfellowsailorsmosttruehesaidifthentherulercatchesanybodybesidehimselflyinginthestateanyofthecraftsmenwhetherhebepriestorphysicianorcarpenterhewillpunishhimforintroducingapracticewhichisequallysubversiveanddestructiveofshiporstatemostcertainlyhesaidifourideaofthestateisevercarriedoutinthenextplaceouryouthmustbetemperatecertainlyarenotthechiefelementsoftemperancespeakinggenerallyobediencetocommandersandselfcontrolinsensualpleasurestruethenweshallapprovesuchlanguageasthatofdiomedeinhomerfriendsitstillandobeymywordandtheverseswhichfollowthegreeksmarchedbreathingprowessinsilentaweoftheirleadersandothersentimentsofthesamekindweshallwhatofthislineoheavywithwinewhohasttheeyesofadogandtheheartofastagandofthewordswhichfollowwouldyousaythattheseoranysimilarimpertinenceswhichprivateindividualsaresupposedtoaddresstotheirrulerswhetherinverseorprosearewellorillspokentheyareillspokentheymayverypossiblyaffordsomeamusementbuttheydonotconducetotemperanceandthereforetheyarelikelytodoharmtoouryoungmenyouwouldagreewithmethereyesandthenagaintomakethewisestofmensaythatnothinginhisopinionismoregloriousthanwhenthetablesarefullofbreadandmeatandthecupbearercarriesroundwinewhichhedrawsfromthebowlandpoursintothecupsisitfitorconducivetotemperanceforayoungmantohearsuchwordsortheversethesaddestoffatesistodieandmeetdestinyfromhungerwhatwouldyousayagaintothetaleofzeuswhowhileothergodsandmenwereasleepandhetheonlypersonawakelaydevisingplansbutforgotthemallinamomentthroughhislustandwassocompletelyovercomeatthesightofherethathewouldnotevengointothehutbutwantedtoliewithheronthegrounddeclaringthathehadneverbeeninsuchastateofrapturebeforeevenwhentheyfirstmetoneanotherwithouttheknowledgeoftheirparentsorthatothertaleofhowhephaestusbecauseofsimilargoingsoncastachainaroundaresandaphroditeindeedhesaidiamstronglyofopinionthattheyoughtnottohearthatsortofthingbutanydeedsofendurancewhicharedoneortoldbyfamousmenthesetheyoughttoseeandhearasforexamplewhatissaidintheverseshesmotehisbreastandthusreproachedhisheartenduremyheartfarworsehastthouenduredcertainlyhesaidinthenextplacewemustnotletthembereceiversofgiftsorloversofmoneycertainlynotneithermustwesingtothemofgiftspersuadinggodsandpersuadingreverendkingsneitherisphoenixthetutorofachillestobeapprovedordeemedtohavegivenhispupilgoodcounselwhenhetoldhimthatheshouldtakethegiftsofthegreeksandassistthembutthatwithoutagiftheshouldnotlayasidehisangerneitherwillwebelieveoracknowledgeachilleshimselftohavebeensuchaloverofmoneythathetookagamemnonsgiftsorthatwhenhehadreceivedpaymentherestoredthedeadbodyofhectorbutthatwithoutpaymenthewasunwillingtodosoundoubtedlyhesaidthesearenotsentimentswhichcanbeapprovedlovinghomerasidoihardlyliketosaythatinattributingthesefeelingstoachillesorinbelievingthattheyaretrulyattributedtohimheisguiltyofdownrightimpietyaslittlecanibelievethenarrativeofhisinsolencetoapollowherehesaysthouhastwrongedmeofardartermostabominableofdeitiesverilyiwouldbeevenwiththeeifihadonlythepowerorhisinsubordinationtotherivergodonwhosedivinityheisreadytolayhandsorhisofferingtothedeadpatroclusofhisownhairwhichhadbeenpreviouslydedicatedtotheotherrivergodspercheiusandthatheactuallyperformedthisvoworthathedraggedhectorroundthetombofpatroclusandslaughteredthecaptivesatthepyreofallthisicannotbelievethathewasguiltyanymorethanicanallowourcitizenstobelievethathethewisecheironspupilthesonofagoddessandofpeleuswhowasthegentlestofmenandthirdindescentfromzeuswassodisorderedinhiswitsastobeatonetimetheslaveoftwoseeminglyinconsistentpassionsmeannessnotuntaintedbyavaricecombinedwithoverweeningcontemptofgodsandmenyouarequiterightherepliedandletusequallyrefusetobelieveorallowtoberepeatedthetaleoftheseussonofposeidonorofpeirithoussonofzeusgoingforthastheydidtoperpetrateahorridrapeorofanyotherheroorsonofagoddaringtodosuchimpiousanddreadfulthingsastheyfalselyascribetotheminourdayandletusfurthercompelthepoetstodeclareeitherthattheseactswerenotdonebythemorthattheywerenotthesonsofgodsbothinthesamebreaththeyshallnotbepermittedtoaffirmwewillnothavethemtryingtopersuadeouryouththatthegodsaretheauthorsofevilandthatheroesarenobetterthanmensentimentswhichasweweresayingareneitherpiousnortrueforwehavealreadyprovedthatevilcannotcomefromthegodsassuredlynotandfurthertheyarelikelytohaveabadeffectonthosewhohearthemforeverybodywillbegintoexcusehisownviceswhenheisconvincedthatsimilarwickednessesarealwaysbeingperpetratedbythekindredofthegodstherelativesofzeuswhoseancestralaltarthealtarofzeusisaloftinaironthepeakofidaandwhohavethebloodofdeitiesyetflowingintheirveinsandthereforeletusputanendtosuchtaleslesttheyengenderlaxityofmoralsamongtheyoungbyallmeansherepliedbutnowthatwearedeterminingwhatclassesofsubjectsareorarenottobespokenofletusseewhetheranyhavebeenomittedbyusthemannerinwhichgodsanddemigodsandheroesandtheworldbelowshouldbetreatedhasbeenalreadylaiddownverytrueandwhatshallwesayaboutmenthatisclearlytheremainingportionofoursubjectclearlysobutwearenotinaconditiontoanswerthisquestionatpresentmyfriendwhynotbecauseifiamnotmistakenweshallhavetosaythataboutmenpoetsandstorytellersareguiltyofmakingthegravestmisstatementswhentheytellusthatwickedmenareoftenhappyandthegoodmiserableandthatinjusticeisprofitablewhenundetectedbutthatjusticeisamansownlossandanothersgainthesethingsweshallforbidthemtoutterandcommandthemtosingandsaytheoppositetobesureweshallherepliedbutifyouadmitthatiamrightinthisthenishallmaintainthatyouhaveimpliedtheprincipleforwhichwehavebeenallalongcontendingigrantthetruthofyourinferencethatsuchthingsareorarenottobesaidaboutmenisaquestionwhichwecannotdetermineuntilwehavediscoveredwhatjusticeisandhownaturallyadvantageoustothepossessorwhetherheseemtobejustornotmosttruehesaidenoughofthesubjectsofpoetryletusnowspeakofthestyleandwhenthishasbeenconsideredbothmatterandmannerwillhavebeencompletelytreatedidonotunderstandwhatyoumeansaidadeimantusthenimustmakeyouunderstandandperhapsimaybemoreintelligibleifiputthematterinthiswayyouareawareisupposethatallmythologyandpoetryisanarrationofeventseitherpastpresentortocomecertainlyherepliedandnarrationmaybeeithersimplenarrationorimitationoraunionofthetwothatagainhesaididonotquiteunderstandifearthatimustbearidiculousteacherwhenihavesomuchdifficultyinmakingmyselfapprehendedlikeabadspeakerthereforeiwillnottakethewholeofthesubjectbutwillbreakapieceoffinillustrationofmymeaningyouknowthefirstlinesoftheiliadinwhichthepoetsaysthatchrysesprayedagamemnontoreleasehisdaughterandthatagamemnonflewintoapassionwithhimwhereuponchrysesfailingofhisobjectinvokedtheangerofthegodagainsttheachaeansnowasfarastheselinesandheprayedallthegreeksbutespeciallythetwosonsofatreusthechiefsofthepeoplethepoetisspeakinginhisownpersonheneverleadsustosupposethatheisanyoneelsebutinwhatfollowshetakesthepersonofchrysesandthenhedoesallthathecantomakeusbelievethatthespeakerisnothomerbuttheagedpriesthimselfandinthisdoubleformhehascasttheentirenarrativeoftheeventswhichoccurredattroyandinithacaandthroughouttheodysseyyesandanarrativeitremainsbothinthespeecheswhichthepoetrecitesfromtimetotimeandintheintermediatepassagesquitetruebutwhenthepoetspeaksinthepersonofanothermaywenotsaythatheassimilateshisstyletothatofthepersonwhoasheinformsyouisgoingtospeakcertainlyandthisassimilationofhimselftoanothereitherbytheuseofvoiceorgestureistheimitationofthepersonwhosecharacterheassumesofcoursetheninthiscasethenarrativeofthepoetmaybesaidtoproceedbywayofimitationverytrueorifthepoeteverywhereappearsandneverconcealshimselfthenagaintheimitationisdroppedandhispoetrybecomessimplenarrationhoweverinorderthatimaymakemymeaningquiteclearandthatyoumaynomoresayidontunderstandiwillshowhowthechangemightbeeffectedifhomerhadsaidthepriestcamehavinghisdaughtersransominhishandssupplicatingtheachaeansandaboveallthekingsandthenifinsteadofspeakinginthepersonofchryseshehadcontinuedinhisownpersonthewordswouldhavebeennotimitationbutsimplenarrationthepassagewouldhaverunasfollowsiamnopoetandthereforeidropthemetrethepriestcameandprayedthegodsonbehalfofthegreeksthattheymightcapturetroyandreturnsafelyhomebutbeggedthattheywouldgivehimbackhisdaughterandtaketheransomwhichhebroughtandrespectthegodthushespokeandtheothergreeksreveredthepriestandassentedbutagamemnonwaswrothandbadehimdepartandnotcomeagainlestthestaffandchapletsofthegodshouldbeofnoavailtohimthedaughterofchrysesshouldnotbereleasedhesaidsheshouldgrowoldwithhiminargosandthenhetoldhimtogoawayandnottoprovokehimifheintendedtogethomeunscathedandtheoldmanwentawayinfearandsilenceandwhenhehadleftthecamphecalleduponapollobyhismanynamesremindinghimofeverythingwhichhehaddonepleasingtohimwhetherinbuildinghistemplesorinofferingsacrificeandprayingthathisgooddeedsmightbereturnedtohimandthattheachaeansmightexpiatehistearsbythearrowsofthegodandsooninthiswaythewholebecomessimplenarrativeiunderstandhesaidoryoumaysupposetheoppositecasethattheintermediatepassagesareomittedandthedialogueonlyleftthatalsohesaidiunderstandyoumeanforexampleasintragedyyouhaveconceivedmymeaningperfectlyandifimistakenotwhatyoufailedtoapprehendbeforeisnowmadecleartoyouthatpoetryandmythologyareinsomecaseswhollyimitativeinstancesofthisaresuppliedbytragedyandcomedythereislikewisetheoppositestyleinwhichthepoetistheonlyspeakerofthisthedithyrambaffordsthebestexampleandthecombinationofbothisfoundinepicandinseveralotherstylesofpoetrydoitakeyouwithmeyeshesaidiseenowwhatyoumeantiwillaskyoutorememberalsowhatibeganbysayingthatwehaddonewiththesubjectandmightproceedtothestyleyesirememberinsayingthisiintendedtoimplythatwemustcometoanunderstandingaboutthemimeticartwhetherthepoetsinnarratingtheirstoriesaretobeallowedbyustoimitateandifsowhetherinwholeorinpartandifthelatterinwhatpartsorshouldallimitationbeprohibitedyoumeanisuspecttoaskwhethertragedyandcomedyshallbeadmittedintoourstateyesisaidbuttheremaybemorethanthisinquestionireallydonotknowasyetbutwhithertheargumentmayblowthitherwegoandgowewillhesaidthenadeimantusletmeaskyouwhetherourguardiansoughttobeimitatorsorratherhasnotthisquestionbeendecidedbytherulealreadylaiddownthatonemancanonlydoonethingwellandnotmanyandthatifheattemptmanyhewillaltogetherfailofgainingmuchreputationinanycertainlyandthisisequallytrueofimitationnoonemancanimitatemanythingsaswellashewouldimitateasingleonehecannotthenthesamepersonwillhardlybeabletoplayaseriouspartinlifeandatthesametimetobeanimitatorandimitatemanyotherpartsaswellforevenwhentwospeciesofimitationarenearlyalliedthesamepersonscannotsucceedinbothasforexamplethewritersoftragedyandcomedydidyounotjustnowcallthemimitationsyesididandyouarerightinthinkingthatthesamepersonscannotsucceedinbothanymorethantheycanberhapsodistsandactorsatoncetrueneitherarecomicandtragicactorsthesameyetallthesethingsarebutimitationstheyaresoandhumannatureadeimantusappearstohavebeencoinedintoyetsmallerpiecesandtobeasincapableofimitatingmanythingswellasofperformingwelltheactionsofwhichtheimitationsarecopiesquitetrueherepliedifthenweadheretoouroriginalnotionandbearinmindthatourguardianssettingasideeveryotherbusinessaretodedicatethemselveswhollytothemaintenanceoffreedominthestatemakingthistheircraftandengaginginnoworkwhichdoesnotbearonthisendtheyoughtnottopractiseorimitateanythingelseiftheyimitateatalltheyshouldimitatefromyouthupwardonlythosecharacterswhicharesuitabletotheirprofessionthecourageoustemperateholyfreeandthelikebuttheyshouldnotdepictorbeskilfulatimitatinganykindofilliberalityorbasenesslestfromimitationtheyshouldcometobewhattheyimitatedidyouneverobservehowimitationsbeginninginearlyyouthandcontinuingfarintolifeatlengthgrowintohabitsandbecomeasecondnatureaffectingbodyvoiceandmindyescertainlyhesaidthenisaidwewillnotallowthoseforwhomweprofessacareandofwhomwesaythattheyoughttobegoodmentoimitateawomanwhetheryoungoroldquarrellingwithherhusbandorstrivingandvauntingagainstthegodsinconceitofherhappinessorwhensheisinafflictionorsorroworweepingandcertainlynotonewhoisinsicknessloveorlabourveryrighthesaidneithermusttheyrepresentslavesmaleorfemaleperformingtheofficesofslavestheymustnotandsurelynotbadmenwhethercowardsoranyotherswhodothereverseofwhatwehavejustbeenprescribingwhoscoldormockorrevileoneanotherindrinkoroutofdrinkorwhoinanyothermannersinagainstthemselvesandtheirneighboursinwordordeedasthemannerofsuchisneithershouldtheybetrainedtoimitatetheactionorspeechofmenorwomenwhoaremadorbadformadnesslikeviceistobeknownbutnottobepractisedorimitatedverytrueherepliedneithermaytheyimitatesmithsorotherartificersoroarsmenorboatswainsorthelikehowcantheyhesaidwhentheyarenotallowedtoapplytheirmindstothecallingsofanyofthesenormaytheyimitatetheneighingofhorsesthebellowingofbullsthemurmurofriversandrolloftheoceanthunderandallthatsortofthingnayhesaidifmadnessbeforbiddenneithermaytheycopythebehaviourofmadmenyoumeanisaidifiunderstandyouarightthatthereisonesortofnarrativestylewhichmaybeemployedbyatrulygoodmanwhenhehasanythingtosayandthatanothersortwillbeusedbyamanofanoppositecharacterandeducationandwhicharethesetwosortsheaskedsupposeiansweredthatajustandgoodmaninthecourseofanarrationcomesonsomesayingoractionofanothergoodmanishouldimaginethathewillliketopersonatehimandwillnotbeashamedofthissortofimitationhewillbemostreadytoplaythepartofthegoodmanwhenheisactingfirmlyandwiselyinalessdegreewhenheisovertakenbyillnessorloveordrinkorhasmetwithanyotherdisasterbutwhenhecomestoacharacterwhichisunworthyofhimhewillnotmakeastudyofthathewilldisdainsuchapersonandwillassumehislikenessifatallforamomentonlywhenheisperformingsomegoodactionatothertimeshewillbeashamedtoplayapartwhichhehasneverpractisednorwillheliketofashionandframehimselfafterthebasermodelshefeelstheemploymentofsuchanartunlessinjesttobebeneathhimandhismindrevoltsatitsoishouldexpectherepliedthenhewilladoptamodeofnarrationsuchaswehaveillustratedoutofhomerthatistosayhisstylewillbebothimitativeandnarrativebuttherewillbeverylittleoftheformerandagreatdealofthelatterdoyouagreecertainlyhesaidthatisthemodelwhichsuchaspeakermustnecessarilytakebutthereisanothersortofcharacterwhowillnarrateanythingandtheworseheisthemoreunscrupuloushewillbenothingwillbetoobadforhimandhewillbereadytoimitateanythingnotasajokebutinrightgoodearnestandbeforealargecompanyasiwasjustnowsayinghewillattempttorepresenttherollofthunderthenoiseofwindandhailorthecreakingofwheelsandpulleysandthevarioussoundsofflutespipestrumpetsandallsortsofinstrumentshewillbarklikeadogbleatlikeasheeporcrowlikeacockhisentireartwillconsistinimitationofvoiceandgestureandtherewillbeverylittlenarrationthathesaidwillbehismodeofspeakingthesethenarethetwokindsofstyleyesandyouwouldagreewithmeinsayingthatoneofthemissimpleandhasbutslightchangesandiftheharmonyandrhythmarealsochosenfortheirsimplicitytheresultisthatthespeakerifhespeakscorrectlyisalwaysprettymuchthesameinstyleandhewillkeepwithinthelimitsofasingleharmonyforthechangesarenotgreatandinlikemannerhewillmakeuseofnearlythesamerhythmthatisquitetruehesaidwhereastheotherrequiresallsortsofharmoniesandallsortsofrhythmsifthemusicandthestylearetocorrespondbecausethestylehasallsortsofchangesthatisalsoperfectlytrueherepliedanddonotthetwostylesorthemixtureofthetwocomprehendallpoetryandeveryformofexpressioninwordsnoonecansayanythingexceptinoneorotherofthemorinbothtogethertheyincludeallhesaidandshallwereceiveintoourstateallthethreestylesoroneonlyofthetwounmixedstylesorwouldyouincludethemixedishouldpreferonlytoadmitthepureimitatorofvirtueyesisaidadeimantusbutthemixedstyleisalsoverycharmingandindeedthepantomimicwhichistheoppositeoftheonechosenbyyouisthemostpopularstylewithchildrenandtheirattendantsandwiththeworldingeneralidonotdenyitbutisupposeyouwouldarguethatsuchastyleisunsuitabletoourstateinwhichhumannatureisnottwofoldormanifoldforonemanplaysonepartonlyyesquiteunsuitableandthisisthereasonwhyinourstateandinourstateonlyweshallfindashoemakertobeashoemakerandnotapilotalsoandahusbandmantobeahusbandmanandnotadicastalsoandasoldierasoldierandnotatraderalsoandthesamethroughouttruehesaidandthereforewhenanyoneofthesepantomimicgentlemenwhoaresocleverthattheycanimitateanythingcomestousandmakesaproposaltoexhibithimselfandhispoetrywewillfalldownandworshiphimasasweetandholyandwonderfulbeingbutwemustalsoinformhimthatinourstatesuchashearenotpermittedtoexistthelawwillnotallowthemandsowhenwehaveanointedhimwithmyrrhandsetagarlandofwooluponhisheadweshallsendhimawaytoanothercityforwemeantoemployforoursoulshealththerougherandsevererpoetorstorytellerwhowillimitatethestyleofthevirtuousonlyandwillfollowthosemodelswhichweprescribedatfirstwhenwebegantheeducationofoursoldierswecertainlywillhesaidifwehavethepowerthennowmyfriendisaidthatpartofmusicorliteraryeducationwhichrelatestothestoryormythmaybeconsideredtobefinishedforthematterandmannerhavebothbeendiscussedithinksotoohesaidnextinorderwillfollowmelodyandsongthatisobviouseveryonecanseealreadywhatweoughttosayaboutthemifwearetobeconsistentwithourselvesifearsaidglauconlaughingthatthewordeveryonehardlyincludesmeforicannotatthemomentsaywhattheyshouldbethoughimayguessatanyrateyoucantellthatasongorodehasthreepartsthewordsthemelodyandtherhythmthatdegreeofknowledgeimaypresupposeyeshesaidsomuchasthatyoumayandasforthewordstherewillsurelybenodifferencebetweenwordswhichareandwhicharenotsettomusicbothwillconformtothesamelawsandthesehavebeenalreadydeterminedbyusyesandthemelodyandrhythmwilldependuponthewordscertainlyweweresayingwhenwespokeofthesubjectmatterthatwehadnoneedoflamentationandstrainsofsorrowtrueandwhicharetheharmoniesexpressiveofsorrowyouaremusicalandcantellmetheharmonieswhichyoumeanarethemixedortenorlydianandthefulltonedorbasslydianandsuchlikethesethenisaidmustbebanishedeventowomenwhohaveacharactertomaintaintheyareofnouseandmuchlesstomencertainlyinthenextplacedrunkennessandsoftnessandindolenceareutterlyunbecomingthecharacterofourguardiansutterlyunbecomingandwhicharethesoftordrinkingharmoniestheionianherepliedandthelydiantheyaretermedrelaxedwellandaretheseofanymilitaryusequitethereverseherepliedandifsothedorianandthephrygianaretheonlyoneswhichyouhaveleftiansweredoftheharmoniesiknownothingbutiwanttohaveonewarliketosoundthenoteoraccentwhichabravemanuttersinthehourofdangerandsternresolveorwhenhiscauseisfailingandheisgoingtowoundsordeathorisovertakenbysomeotherevilandateverysuchcrisismeetstheblowsoffortunewithfirmstepandadeterminationtoendureandanothertobeusedbyhimintimesofpeaceandfreedomofactionwhenthereisnopressureofnecessityandheisseekingtopersuadegodbyprayerormanbyinstructionandadmonitionorontheotherhandwhenheisexpressinghiswillingnesstoyieldtopersuasionorentreatyoradmonitionandwhichrepresentshimwhenbyprudentconducthehasattainedhisendnotcarriedawaybyhissuccessbutactingmoderatelyandwiselyunderthecircumstancesandacquiescingintheeventthesetwoharmoniesiaskyoutoleavethestrainofnecessityandthestrainoffreedomthestrainoftheunfortunateandthestrainofthefortunatethestrainofcourageandthestrainoftemperancetheseisayleaveandtheseherepliedarethedorianandphrygianharmoniesofwhichiwasjustnowspeakingthenisaidiftheseandtheseonlyaretobeusedinoursongsandmelodiesweshallnotwantmultiplicityofnotesorapanharmonicscaleisupposenotthenweshallnotmaintaintheartificersoflyreswiththreecornersandcomplexscalesorthemakersofanyothermanystringedcuriouslyharmonisedinstrumentscertainlynotbutwhatdoyousaytoflutemakersandfluteplayerswouldyouadmitthemintoourstatewhenyoureflectthatinthiscompositeuseofharmonythefluteisworsethanallthestringedinstrumentsputtogethereventhepanharmonicmusicisonlyanimitationofthefluteclearlynotthereremainthenonlythelyreandtheharpforuseinthecityandtheshepherdsmayhaveapipeinthecountrythatissurelytheconclusiontobedrawnfromtheargumentthepreferringofapolloandhisinstrumentstomarsyasandhisinstrumentsisnotatallstrangeisaidnotatallherepliedandsobythedogofegyptwehavebeenunconsciouslypurgingthestatewhichnotlongagowetermedluxuriousandwehavedonewiselyherepliedthenletusnowfinishthepurgationisaidnextinordertoharmoniesrhythmswillnaturallyfollowandtheyshouldbesubjecttothesamerulesforweoughtnottoseekoutcomplexsystemsofmetreormetresofeverykindbutrathertodiscoverwhatrhythmsaretheexpressionsofacourageousandharmoniouslifeandwhenwehavefoundthemweshalladaptthefootandthemelodytowordshavingalikespiritnotthewordstothefootandmelodytosaywhattheserhythmsarewillbeyourdutyyoumustteachmethemasyouhavealreadytaughtmetheharmoniesbutindeedherepliedicannottellyouionlyknowthattherearesomethreeprinciplesofrhythmoutofwhichmetricalsystemsareframedjustasinsoundstherearefournotesiethefournotesofthetetrachordoutofwhichalltheharmoniesarecomposedthatisanobservationwhichihavemadebutofwhatsortoflivestheyareseverallytheimitationsiamunabletosaythenisaidwemusttakedamonintoourcounselsandhewilltelluswhatrhythmsareexpressiveofmeannessorinsolenceorfuryorotherunworthinessandwhataretobereservedfortheexpressionofoppositefeelingsandithinkthatihaveanindistinctrecollectionofhismentioningacomplexcreticrhythmalsoadactylicorheroicandhearrangedtheminsomemannerwhichidonotquiteunderstandmakingtherhythmsequalintheriseandfallofthefootlongandshortalternatingandunlessiammistakenhespokeofaniambicaswellasofatrochaicrhythmandassignedtothemshortandlongquantitiesalsoinsomecasesheappearedtopraiseorcensurethemovementofthefootquiteasmuchastherhythmorperhapsacombinationofthetwoforiamnotcertainwhathemeantthesemattershoweverasiwassayinghadbetterbereferredtodamonhimselffortheanalysisofthesubjectwouldbedifficultyouknowsocratesexpresseshimselfcarelesslyinaccordancewithhisassumedignoranceofthedetailsofthesubjectinthefirstpartofthesentenceheappearstobespeakingofpaeonicrhythmswhichareintheratioofinthesecondpartofdactylicandanapaesticrhythmswhichareintheratioofinthelastclauseofiambicandtrochaicrhythmswhichareintheratiooforrathersoishouldsaybutthereisnodifficultyinseeingthatgraceortheabsenceofgraceisaneffectofgoodorbadrhythmnoneatallandalsothatgoodandbadrhythmnaturallyassimilatetoagoodandbadstyleandthatharmonyanddiscordinlikemannerfollowstyleforourprincipleisthatrhythmandharmonyareregulatedbythewordsandnotthewordsbythemjustsohesaidtheyshouldfollowthewordsandwillnotthewordsandthecharacterofthestyledependonthetemperofthesoulyesandeverythingelseonthestyleyesthenbeautyofstyleandharmonyandgraceandgoodrhythmdependonsimplicityimeanthetruesimplicityofarightlyandnoblyorderedmindandcharacternotthatothersimplicitywhichisonlyaneuphemismforfollyverytrueherepliedandifouryoutharetodotheirworkinlifemusttheynotmakethesegracesandharmoniestheirperpetualaimtheymustandsurelytheartofthepainterandeveryothercreativeandconstructiveartarefullofthemweavingembroideryarchitectureandeverykindofmanufacturealsonatureanimalandvegetableinallofthemthereisgraceortheabsenceofgraceanduglinessanddiscordandinharmoniousmotionarenearlyalliedtoillwordsandillnatureasgraceandharmonyarethetwinsistersofgoodnessandvirtueandbeartheirlikenessthatisquitetruehesaidbutshalloursuperintendencegonofurtherandarethepoetsonlytoberequiredbyustoexpresstheimageofthegoodintheirworksonpainiftheydoanythingelseofexpulsionfromourstateoristhesamecontroltobeextendedtootherartistsandaretheyalsotobeprohibitedfromexhibitingtheoppositeformsofviceandintemperanceandmeannessandindecencyinsculptureandbuildingandtheothercreativeartsandishewhocannotconformtothisruleofourstobepreventedfrompractisinghisartinourstatelestthetasteofourcitizensbecorruptedbyhimwewouldnothaveourguardiansgrowupamidimagesofmoraldeformityasinsomenoxiouspastureandtherebrowseandfeeduponmanyabanefulherbandflowerdaybydaylittlebylittleuntiltheysilentlygatherafesteringmassofcorruptionintheirownsoulletourartistsratherbethosewhoaregiftedtodiscernthetruenatureofthebeautifulandgracefulthenwillouryouthdwellinalandofhealthamidfairsightsandsoundsandreceivethegoodineverythingandbeautytheeffluenceoffairworksshallflowintotheeyeandearlikeahealthgivingbreezefromapurerregionandinsensiblydrawthesoulfromearliestyearsintolikenessandsympathywiththebeautyofreasontherecanbenonoblertrainingthanthatherepliedandthereforeisaidglauconmusicaltrainingisamorepotentinstrumentthananyotherbecauserhythmandharmonyfindtheirwayintotheinwardplacesofthesoulonwhichtheymightilyfastenimpartinggraceandmakingthesoulofhimwhoisrightlyeducatedgracefulorofhimwhoisilleducatedungracefulandalsobecausehewhohasreceivedthistrueeducationoftheinnerbeingwillmostshrewdlyperceiveomissionsorfaultsinartandnatureandwithatruetastewhilehepraisesandrejoicesoverandreceivesintohissoulthegoodandbecomesnobleandgoodhewilljustlyblameandhatethebadnowinthedaysofhisyouthevenbeforeheisabletoknowthereasonwhyandwhenreasoncomeshewillrecogniseandsalutethefriendwithwhomhiseducationhasmadehimlongfamiliaryeshesaidiquiteagreewithyouinthinkingthatouryouthshouldbetrainedinmusicandonthegroundswhichyoumentionjustasinlearningtoreadisaidweweresatisfiedwhenweknewthelettersofthealphabetwhichareveryfewinalltheirrecurringsizesandcombinationsnotslightingthemasunimportantwhethertheyoccupyaspacelargeorsmallbuteverywhereeagertomakethemoutandnotthinkingourselvesperfectintheartofreadinguntilwerecognisethemwherevertheyarefoundtrueoraswerecognisethereflectionoflettersinthewaterorinamirroronlywhenweknowthelettersthemselvesthesameartandstudygivingustheknowledgeofbothexactlyevensoasimaintainneitherwenorourguardianswhomwehavetoeducatecaneverbecomemusicaluntilweandtheyknowtheessentialformsoftemperancecourageliberalitymagnificenceandtheirkindredaswellasthecontraryformsinalltheircombinationsandcanrecognisethemandtheirimageswherevertheyarefoundnotslightingthemeitherinsmallthingsorgreatbutbelievingthemalltobewithinthesphereofoneartandstudymostassuredlyandwhenabeautifulsoulharmonizeswithabeautifulformandthetwoarecastinonemouldthatwillbethefairestofsightstohimwhohasaneyetoseeitthefairestindeedandthefairestisalsotheloveliestthatmaybeassumedandthemanwhohasthespiritofharmonywillbemostinlovewiththeloveliestbuthewillnotlovehimwhoisofaninharmonioussoulthatistrueherepliedifthedeficiencybeinhissoulbutiftherebeanymerelybodilydefectinanotherhewillbepatientofitandwillloveallthesameiperceiveisaidthatyouhaveorhavehadexperiencesofthissortandiagreebutletmeaskyouanotherquestionhasexcessofpleasureanyaffinitytotemperancehowcanthatbeherepliedpleasuredeprivesamanoftheuseofhisfacultiesquiteasmuchaspainoranyaffinitytovirtueingeneralnonewhateveranyaffinitytowantonnessandintemperanceyesthegreatestandisthereanygreaterorkeenerpleasurethanthatofsensuallovenonoramadderwhereastrueloveisaloveofbeautyandordertemperateandharmoniousquitetruehesaidthennointemperanceormadnessshouldbeallowedtoapproachtruelovecertainlynotthenmadorintemperatepleasuremustneverbeallowedtocomeneartheloverandhisbelovedneitherofthemcanhaveanypartinitiftheirloveisoftherightsortnoindeedsocratesitmustnevercomenearthemthenisupposethatinthecitywhichwearefoundingyouwouldmakealawtotheeffectthatafriendshouldusenootherfamiliaritytohislovethanafatherwouldusetohissonandthenonlyforanoblepurposeandhemustfirsthavetheothersconsentandthisruleistolimithiminallhisintercourseandheisnevertobeseengoingfurtherorifheexceedsheistobedeemedguiltyofcoarsenessandbadtasteiquiteagreehesaidthusmuchofmusicwhichmakesafairendingforwhatshouldbetheendofmusicifnottheloveofbeautyiagreehesaidaftermusiccomesgymnasticinwhichouryoutharenexttobetrainedcertainlygymnasticaswellasmusicshouldbegininearlyyearsthetraininginitshouldbecarefulandshouldcontinuethroughlifenowmybeliefisandthisisamatteruponwhichishouldliketohaveyouropinioninconfirmationofmyownbutmyownbeliefisnotthatthegoodbodybyanybodilyexcellenceimprovesthesoulbutonthecontrarythatthegoodsoulbyherownexcellenceimprovesthebodyasfarasthismaybepossiblewhatdoyousayyesiagreethentothemindwhenadequatelytrainedweshallberightinhandingoverthemoreparticularcareofthebodyandinordertoavoidprolixitywewillnowonlygivethegeneraloutlinesofthesubjectverygoodthattheymustabstainfromintoxicationhasbeenalreadyremarkedbyusforofallpersonsaguardianshouldbethelasttogetdrunkandnotknowwhereintheworldheisyeshesaidthataguardianshouldrequireanotherguardiantotakecareofhimisridiculousindeedbutnextwhatshallwesayoftheirfoodforthemenareintrainingforthegreatcontestofallaretheynotyeshesaidandwillthehabitofbodyofourordinaryathletesbesuitedtothemwhynotiamafraidisaidthatahabitofbodysuchastheyhaveisbutasleepysortofthingandratherperiloustohealthdoyounotobservethattheseathletessleepawaytheirlivesandareliabletomostdangerousillnessesiftheydepartineversoslightadegreefromtheircustomaryregimenyesidothenisaidafinersortoftrainingwillberequiredforourwarriorathleteswhoaretobelikewakefuldogsandtoseeandhearwiththeutmostkeennessamidthemanychangesofwaterandalsooffoodofsummerheatandwintercoldwhichtheywillhavetoendurewhenonacampaigntheymustnotbeliabletobreakdowninhealththatismyviewthereallyexcellentgymnasticistwinsisterofthatsimplemusicwhichwewerejustnowdescribinghowsowhyiconceivethatthereisagymnasticwhichlikeourmusicissimpleandgoodandespeciallythemilitarygymnasticwhatdoyoumeanmymeaningmaybelearnedfromhomerheyouknowfeedshisheroesattheirfeastswhentheyarecampaigningonsoldiersfaretheyhavenofishalthoughtheyareontheshoresofthehellespontandtheyarenotallowedboiledmeatsbutonlyroastwhichisthefoodmostconvenientforsoldiersrequiringonlythattheyshouldlightafireandnotinvolvingthetroubleofcarryingaboutpotsandpanstrueandicanhardlybemistakeninsayingthatsweetsaucesarenowherementionedinhomerinproscribingthemhoweverheisnotsingularallprofessionalathletesarewellawarethatamanwhoistobeingoodconditionshouldtakenothingofthekindyeshesaidandknowingthistheyarequiterightinnottakingthemthenyouwouldnotapproveofsyracusandinnersandtherefinementsofsiciliancookeryithinknotnorifamanistobeinconditionwouldyouallowhimtohaveacorinthiangirlashisfairfriendcertainlynotneitherwouldyouapproveofthedelicaciesastheyarethoughtofathenianconfectionarycertainlynotallsuchfeedingandlivingmayberightlycomparedbyustomelodyandsongcomposedinthepanharmonicstyleandinalltherhythmsexactlytherecomplexityengenderedlicenceandherediseasewhereassimplicityinmusicwastheparentoftemperanceinthesoulandsimplicityingymnasticofhealthinthebodymosttruehesaidbutwhenintemperanceanddiseasesmultiplyinastatehallsofjusticeandmedicinearealwaysbeingopenedandtheartsofthedoctorandthelawyergivethemselvesairsfindinghowkeenistheinterestwhichnotonlytheslavesbutthefreemenofacitytakeaboutthemofcourseandyetwhatgreaterproofcantherebeofabadanddisgracefulstateofeducationthanthisthatnotonlyartisansandthemeanersortofpeopleneedtheskilloffirstratephysiciansandjudgesbutalsothosewhowouldprofesstohavehadaliberaleducationisitnotdisgracefulandagreatsignofwantofgoodbreedingthatamanshouldhavetogoabroadforhislawandphysicbecausehehasnoneofhisownathomeandmustthereforesurrenderhimselfintothehandsofothermenwhomhemakeslordsandjudgesoverhimofallthingshesaidthemostdisgracefulwouldyousaymostirepliedwhenyouconsiderthatthereisafurtherstageoftheevilinwhichamanisnotonlyalifelonglitigantpassingallhisdaysinthecourtseitherasplaintiffordefendantbutisactuallyledbyhisbadtastetopridehimselfonhislitigiousnessheimaginesthatheisamasterindishonestyabletotakeeverycrookedturnandwriggleintoandoutofeveryholebendinglikeawithyandgettingoutofthewayofjusticeandallforwhatinordertogainsmallpointsnotworthmentioninghenotknowingthatsotoorderhislifeastobeabletodowithoutanappingjudgeisafarhigherandnoblersortofthingisnotthatstillmoredisgracefulyeshesaidthatisstillmoredisgracefulwellisaidandtorequirethehelpofmedicinenotwhenawoundhastobecuredoronoccasionofanepidemicbutjustbecausebyindolenceandahabitoflifesuchaswehavebeendescribingmenfillthemselveswithwatersandwindsasiftheirbodieswereamarshcompellingtheingenioussonsofasclepiustofindmorenamesfordiseasessuchasflatulenceandcatarrhisnotthistooadisgraceyeshesaidtheydocertainlygiveverystrangeandnewfanglednamestodiseasesyesisaidandidonotbelievethattherewereanysuchdiseasesinthedaysofasclepiusandthisiinferfromthecircumstancethattheheroeurypylusafterhehasbeenwoundedinhomerdrinksapossetofpramnianwinewellbesprinkledwithbarleymealandgratedcheesewhicharecertainlyinflammatoryandyetthesonsofasclepiuswhowereatthetrojanwardonotblamethedamselwhogiveshimthedrinkorrebukepatrocluswhoistreatinghiscasewellhesaidthatwassurelyanextraordinarydrinktobegiventoapersoninhisconditionnotsoextraordinaryirepliedifyoubearinmindthatinformerdaysasiscommonlysaidbeforethetimeofherodicustheguildofasclepiusdidnotpractiseourpresentsystemofmedicinewhichmaybesaidtoeducatediseasesbutherodicusbeingatrainerandhimselfofasicklyconstitutionbyacombinationoftraininganddoctoringfoundoutawayoftorturingfirstandchieflyhimselfandsecondlytherestoftheworldhowwasthathesaidbytheinventionoflingeringdeathforhehadamortaldiseasewhichheperpetuallytendedandasrecoverywasoutofthequestionhepassedhisentirelifeasavaletudinarianhecoulddonothingbutattenduponhimselfandhewasinconstanttormentwheneverhedepartedinanythingfromhisusualregimenandsodyinghardbythehelpofsciencehestruggledontooldageararerewardofhisskillyesisaidarewardwhichamanmightfairlyexpectwhoneverunderstoodthatifasclepiusdidnotinstructhisdescendantsinvaletudinarianartstheomissionarosenotfromignoranceorinexperienceofsuchabranchofmedicinebutbecauseheknewthatinallwellorderedstateseveryindividualhasanoccupationtowhichhemustattendandhasthereforenoleisuretospendincontinuallybeingillthisweremarkinthecaseoftheartisanbutludicrouslyenoughdonotapplythesameruletopeopleoftherichersorthowdoyoumeanhesaidimeanthiswhenacarpenterisillheasksthephysicianforaroughandreadycureanemeticorapurgeoracauteryortheknifethesearehisremediesandifsomeoneprescribesforhimacourseofdieteticsandtellshimthathemustswatheandswaddlehisheadandallthatsortofthingherepliesatoncethathehasnotimetobeillandthatheseesnogoodinalifewhichisspentinnursinghisdiseasetotheneglectofhiscustomaryemploymentandthereforebiddinggoodbyetothissortofphysicianheresumeshisordinaryhabitsandeithergetswellandlivesanddoeshisbusinessorifhisconstitutionfailshediesandhasnomoretroubleyeshesaidandamaninhisconditionoflifeoughttousetheartofmedicinethusfaronlyhashenotisaidanoccupationandwhatprofitwouldtherebeinhislifeifheweredeprivedofhisoccupationquitetruehesaidbutwiththerichmanthisisotherwiseofhimwedonotsaythathehasanyspeciallyappointedworkwhichhemustperformifhewouldliveheisgenerallysupposedtohavenothingtodothenyouneverheardofthesayingofphocylidesthatassoonasamanhasalivelihoodheshouldpractisevirtuenayhesaidithinkthathehadbetterbeginsomewhatsoonerletusnothaveadisputewithhimaboutthisisaidbutratheraskourselvesisthepracticeofvirtueobligatoryontherichmanorcanhelivewithoutitandifobligatoryonhimthenletusraiseafurtherquestionwhetherthisdietingofdisorderswhichisanimpedimenttotheapplicationofthemindincarpenteringandthemechanicalartsdoesnotequallystandinthewayofthesentimentofphocylidesofthatherepliedtherecanbenodoubtsuchexcessivecareofthebodywhencarriedbeyondtherulesofgymnasticismostinimicaltothepracticeofvirtueyesindeedirepliedandequallyincompatiblewiththemanagementofahouseanarmyoranofficeofstateandwhatismostimportantofallirreconcileablewithanykindofstudyorthoughtorselfreflectionthereisaconstantsuspicionthatheadacheandgiddinessaretobeascribedtophilosophyandhenceallpractisingormakingtrialofvirtueinthehighersenseisabsolutelystoppedforamanisalwaysfancyingthatheisbeingmadeillandisinconstantanxietyaboutthestateofhisbodyyeslikelyenoughandthereforeourpoliticasclepiusmaybesupposedtohaveexhibitedthepowerofhisartonlytopersonswhobeinggenerallyofhealthyconstitutionandhabitsoflifehadadefiniteailmentsuchasthesehecuredbypurgesandoperationsandbadethemliveasusualhereinconsultingtheinterestsofthestatebutbodieswhichdiseasehadpenetratedthroughandthroughhewouldnothaveattemptedtocurebygradualprocessesofevacuationandinfusionhedidnotwanttolengthenoutgoodfornothinglivesortohaveweakfathersbegettingweakersonsifamanwasnotabletoliveintheordinarywayhehadnobusinesstocurehimforsuchacurewouldhavebeenofnouseeithertohimselfortothestatethenhesaidyouregardasclepiusasastatesmanclearlyandhischaracterisfurtherillustratedbyhissonsnotethattheywereheroesinthedaysofoldandpractisedthemedicinesofwhichiamspeakingatthesiegeoftroyyouwillrememberhowwhenpandaruswoundedmenelaustheysuckedthebloodoutofthewoundandsprinkledsoothingremediesbuttheyneverprescribedwhatthepatientwasafterwardstoeatordrinkinthecaseofmenelausanymorethaninthecaseofeurypylustheremediesastheyconceivedwereenoughtohealanymanwhobeforehewaswoundedwashealthyandregularinhishabitsandeventhoughhedidhappentodrinkapossetofpramnianwinehemightgetwellallthesamebuttheywouldhavenothingtodowithunhealthyandintemperatesubjectswhoseliveswereofnouseeithertothemselvesorotherstheartofmedicinewasnotdesignedfortheirgoodandthoughtheywereasrichasmidasthesonsofasclepiuswouldhavedeclinedtoattendthemtheywereveryacutepersonsthosesonsofasclepiusnaturallysoirepliedneverthelessthetragediansandpindardisobeyingourbehestsalthoughtheyacknowledgethatasclepiuswasthesonofapollosayalsothathewasbribedintohealingarichmanwhowasatthepointofdeathandforthisreasonhewasstruckbylightningbutweinaccordancewiththeprinciplealreadyaffirmedbyuswillnotbelievethemwhentheytellusbothifhewasthesonofagodwemaintainthathewasnotavariciousorifhewasavaricioushewasnotthesonofagodallthatsocratesisexcellentbutishouldliketoputaquestiontoyououghttherenottobegoodphysiciansinastateandarenotthebestthosewhohavetreatedthegreatestnumberofconstitutionsgoodandbadandarenotthebestjudgesinlikemannerthosewhoareacquaintedwithallsortsofmoralnaturesyesisaiditoowouldhavegoodjudgesandgoodphysiciansbutdoyouknowwhomithinkgoodwillyoutellmeiwillificanletmehowevernotethatinthesamequestionyoujointwothingswhicharenotthesamehowsoheaskedwhyisaidyoujoinphysiciansandjudgesnowthemostskilfulphysiciansarethosewhofromtheiryouthupwardshavecombinedwiththeknowledgeoftheirartthegreatestexperienceofdiseasetheyhadbetternotberobustinhealthandshouldhavehadallmannerofdiseasesintheirownpersonsforthebodyasiconceiveisnottheinstrumentwithwhichtheycurethebodyinthatcasewecouldnotallowthemevertobeortohavebeensicklybuttheycurethebodywiththemindandthemindwhichhasbecomeandissickcancurenothingthatisverytruehesaidbutwiththejudgeitisotherwisesincehegovernsmindbymindheoughtnotthereforetohavebeentrainedamongviciousmindsandtohaveassociatedwiththemfromyouthupwardsandtohavegonethroughthewholecalendarofcrimeonlyinorderthathemayquicklyinferthecrimesofothersashemighttheirbodilydiseasesfromhisownselfconsciousnessthehonourablemindwhichistoformahealthyjudgmentshouldhavehadnoexperienceorcontaminationofevilhabitswhenyoungandthisisthereasonwhyinyouthgoodmenoftenappeartobesimpleandareeasilypractiseduponbythedishonestbecausetheyhavenoexamplesofwhatevilisintheirownsoulsyeshesaidtheyarefartooapttobedeceivedthereforeisaidthejudgeshouldnotbeyoungheshouldhavelearnedtoknowevilnotfromhisownsoulbutfromlateandlongobservationofthenatureofevilinothersknowledgeshouldbehisguidenotpersonalexperienceyeshesaidthatistheidealofajudgeyesirepliedandhewillbeagoodmanwhichismyanswertoyourquestionforheisgoodwhohasagoodsoulbutthecunningandsuspiciousnatureofwhichwespokehewhohascommittedmanycrimesandfancieshimselftobeamasterinwickednesswhenheisamongsthisfellowsiswonderfulintheprecautionswhichhetakesbecausehejudgesofthembyhimselfbutwhenhegetsintothecompanyofmenofvirtuewhohavetheexperienceofageheappearstobeafoolagainowingtohisunseasonablesuspicionshecannotrecogniseanhonestmanbecausehehasnopatternofhonestyinhimselfatthesametimeasthebadaremorenumerousthanthegoodandhemeetswiththemoftenerhethinkshimselfandisbyothersthoughttoberatherwisethanfoolishmosttruehesaidthenthegoodandwisejudgewhomweareseekingisnotthismanbuttheotherforvicecannotknowvirtuetoobutavirtuousnatureeducatedbytimewillacquireaknowledgebothofvirtueandvicethevirtuousandnottheviciousmanhaswisdominmyopinionandinminealsothisisthesortofmedicineandthisisthesortoflawwhichyouwillsanctioninyourstatetheywillministertobetternaturesgivinghealthbothofsoulandofbodybutthosewhoarediseasedintheirbodiestheywillleavetodieandthecorruptandincurablesoulstheywillputanendtothemselvesthatisclearlythebestthingbothforthepatientsandforthestateandthusouryouthhavingbeeneducatedonlyinthatsimplemusicwhichaswesaidinspirestemperancewillbereluctanttogotolawclearlyandthemusicianwhokeepingtothesametrackiscontenttopractisethesimplegymnasticwillhavenothingtodowithmedicineunlessinsomeextremecasethatiquitebelievetheveryexercisesandtollswhichheundergoesareintendedtostimulatethespiritedelementofhisnatureandnottoincreasehisstrengthhewillnotlikecommonathletesuseexerciseandregimentodevelopehismusclesveryrighthesaidneitherarethetwoartsofmusicandgymnasticreallydesignedasisoftensupposedtheoneforthetrainingofthesoultheotherforthetrainingofthebodywhatthenistherealobjectofthemibelieveisaidthattheteachersofbothhaveinviewchieflytheimprovementofthesoulhowcanthatbeheaskeddidyouneverobserveisaidtheeffectontheminditselfofexclusivedevotiontogymnasticortheoppositeeffectofanexclusivedevotiontomusicinwhatwayshownhesaidtheoneproducingatemperofhardnessandferocitytheotherofsoftnessandeffeminacyirepliedyeshesaidiamquiteawarethatthemereathletebecomestoomuchofasavageandthatthemeremusicianismeltedandsoftenedbeyondwhatisgoodforhimyetsurelyisaidthisferocityonlycomesfromspiritwhichifrightlyeducatedwouldgivecouragebutiftoomuchintensifiedisliabletobecomehardandbrutalthatiquitethinkontheotherhandthephilosopherwillhavethequalityofgentlenessandthisalsowhentoomuchindulgedwillturntosoftnessbutifeducatedrightlywillbegentleandmoderatetrueandinouropiniontheguardiansoughttohaveboththesequalitiesassuredlyandbothshouldbeinharmonybeyondquestionandtheharmonioussoulisbothtemperateandcourageousyesandtheinharmoniousiscowardlyandboorishverytrueandwhenamanallowsmusictoplayuponhimandtopourintohissoulthroughthefunnelofhisearsthosesweetandsoftandmelancholyairsofwhichwewerejustnowspeakingandhiswholelifeispassedinwarblingandthedelightsofsonginthefirststageoftheprocessthepassionorspiritwhichisinhimistemperedlikeironandmadeusefulinsteadofbrittleanduselessbutifhecarriesonthesofteningandsoothingprocessinthenextstagehebeginstomeltandwasteuntilhehaswastedawayhisspiritandcutoutthesinewsofhissoulandhebecomesafeeblewarriorverytrueiftheelementofspiritisnaturallyweakinhimthechangeisspeedilyaccomplishedbutifhehaveagooddealthenthepowerofmusicweakeningthespiritrendershimexcitableontheleastprovocationheflamesupatonceandisspeedilyextinguishedinsteadofhavingspirithegrowsirritableandpassionateandisquiteimpracticableexactlyandsoingymnasticsifamantakesviolentexerciseandisagreatfeederandthereverseofagreatstudentofmusicandphilosophyatfirstthehighconditionofhisbodyfillshimwithprideandspiritandhebecomestwicethemanthathewascertainlyandwhathappensifhedonothingelseandholdsnoconversewiththemusesdoesnoteventhatintelligencewhichtheremaybeinhimhavingnotasteofanysortoflearningorenquiryorthoughtorculturegrowfeebleanddullandblindhismindneverwakinguporreceivingnourishmentandhissensesnotbeingpurgedoftheirmiststruehesaidandheendsbybecomingahaterofphilosophyuncivilizedneverusingtheweaponofpersuasionheislikeawildbeastallviolenceandfiercenessandknowsnootherwayofdealingandhelivesinallignoranceandevilconditionsandhasnosenseofproprietyandgracethatisquitetruehesaidandastherearetwoprinciplesofhumannatureonethespiritedandtheotherthephilosophicalsomegodasishouldsayhasgivenmankindtwoartsansweringtothemandonlyindirectlytothesoulandbodyinorderthatthesetwoprincipleslikethestringsofaninstrumentmayberelaxedordrawntighteruntiltheyaredulyharmonizedthatappearstobetheintentionandhewhominglesmusicwithgymnasticinthefairestproportionsandbestattempersthemtothesoulmayberightlycalledthetruemusicianandharmonistinafarhighersensethanthetunerofthestringsyouarequiterightsocratesandsuchapresidinggeniuswillbealwaysrequiredinourstateifthegovernmentistolastyeshewillbeabsolutelynecessarysuchthenareourprinciplesofnurtureandeducationwherewouldbetheuseofgoingintofurtherdetailsaboutthedancesofourcitizensorabouttheirhuntingandcoursingtheirgymnasticandequestriancontestsfortheseallfollowthegeneralprincipleandhavingfoundthatweshallhavenodifficultyindiscoveringthemidaresaythattherewillbenodifficultyverygoodisaidthenwhatisthenextquestionmustwenotaskwhoaretoberulersandwhosubjectscertainlytherecanbenodoubtthattheeldermustruletheyoungerclearlyandthatthebestofthesemustrulethatisalsoclearnowarenotthebesthusbandmenthosewhoaremostdevotedtohusbandryyesandaswearetohavethebestofguardiansforourcitymusttheynotbethosewhohavemostthecharacterofguardiansyesandtothisendtheyoughttobewiseandefficientandtohaveaspecialcareofthestatetrueandamanwillbemostlikelytocareaboutthatwhichhelovestobesureandhewillbemostlikelytolovethatwhichheregardsashavingthesameinterestswithhimselfandthatofwhichthegoodorevilfortuneissupposedbyhimatanytimemosttoaffecthisownverytrueherepliedthentheremustbeaselectionletusnoteamongtheguardiansthosewhointheirwholelifeshowthegreatesteagernesstodowhatisforthegoodoftheircountryandthegreatestrepugnancetodowhatisagainstherintereststhosearetherightmenandtheywillhavetobewatchedateveryageinorderthatwemayseewhethertheypreservetheirresolutionandneverundertheinfluenceeitherofforceorenchantmentforgetorcastofftheirsenseofdutytothestatehowcastoffhesaidiwillexplaintoyouirepliedaresolutionmaygooutofamansmindeitherwithhiswilloragainsthiswillwithhiswillwhenhegetsridofafalsehoodandlearnsbetteragainsthiswillwheneverheisdeprivedofatruthiunderstandhesaidthewillinglossofaresolutionthemeaningoftheunwillingihaveyettolearnwhyisaiddoyounotseethatmenareunwillinglydeprivedofgoodandwillinglyofevilisnottohavelostthetruthanevilandtopossessthetruthagoodandyouwouldagreethattoconceivethingsastheyareistopossessthetruthyesherepliediagreewithyouinthinkingthatmankindaredeprivedoftruthagainsttheirwillandisnotthisinvoluntarydeprivationcausedeitherbytheftorforceorenchantmentstillherepliedidonotunderstandyouifearthatimusthavebeentalkingdarklylikethetragediansionlymeanthatsomemenarechangedbypersuasionandthatothersforgetargumentstealsawaytheheartsofoneclassandtimeoftheotherandthisicalltheftnowyouunderstandmeyesthoseagainwhoareforcedarethosewhomtheviolenceofsomepainorgriefcompelstochangetheiropinioniunderstandhesaidandyouarequiterightandyouwouldalsoacknowledgethattheenchantedarethosewhochangetheirmindseitherunderthesofterinfluenceofpleasureorthesternerinfluenceoffearyeshesaideverythingthatdeceivesmaybesaidtoenchantthereforeasiwasjustnowsayingwemustenquirewhoarethebestguardiansoftheirownconvictionthatwhattheythinktheinterestofthestateistobetheruleoftheirliveswemustwatchthemfromtheiryouthupwardsandmakethemperformactionsinwhichtheyaremostlikelytoforgetortobedeceivedandhewhoremembersandisnotdeceivedistobeselectedandhewhofailsinthetrialistoberejectedthatwillbethewayyesandthereshouldalsobetoilsandpainsandconflictsprescribedfortheminwhichtheywillbemadetogivefurtherproofofthesamequalitiesveryrightherepliedandthenisaidwemusttrythemwithenchantmentsthatisthethirdsortoftestandseewhatwillbetheirbehaviourlikethosewhotakecoltsamidnoiseandtumulttoseeiftheyareofatimidnaturesomustwetakeouryouthamidterrorsofsomekindandagainpassthemintopleasuresandprovethemmorethoroughlythangoldisprovedinthefurnacethatwemaydiscoverwhethertheyarearmedagainstallenchantmentsandofanoblebearingalwaysgoodguardiansofthemselvesandofthemusicwhichtheyhavelearnedandretainingunderallcircumstancesarhythmicalandharmoniousnaturesuchaswillbemostserviceabletotheindividualandtothestateandhewhoateveryageasboyandyouthandinmaturelifehascomeoutofthetrialvictoriousandpureshallbeappointedarulerandguardianofthestateheshallbehonouredinlifeanddeathandshallreceivesepultureandothermemorialsofhonourthegreatestthatwehavetogivebuthimwhofailswemustrejectiaminclinedtothinkthatthisisthesortofwayinwhichourrulersandguardiansshouldbechosenandappointedispeakgenerallyandnotwithanypretensiontoexactnessandspeakinggenerallyiagreewithyouhesaidandperhapsthewordguardianinthefullestsenseoughttobeappliedtothishigherclassonlywhopreserveusagainstforeignenemiesandmaintainpeaceamongourcitizensathomethattheonemaynothavethewillortheothersthepowertoharmustheyoungmenwhomwebeforecalledguardiansmaybemoreproperlydesignatedauxiliariesandsupportersoftheprinciplesoftherulersiagreewithyouhesaidhowthenmaywedeviseoneofthoseneedfulfalsehoodsofwhichwelatelyspokejustoneroyalliewhichmaydeceivetherulersifthatbepossibleandatanyratetherestofthecitywhatsortofliehesaidnothingnewirepliedonlyanoldphoeniciantalelawsofwhathasoftenoccurredbeforenowinotherplacesasthepoetssayandhavemadetheworldbelievethoughnotinourtimeandidonotknowwhethersuchaneventcouldeverhappenagainorcouldnowevenbemadeprobableifitdidhowyourwordsseemtohesitateonyourlipsyouwillnotwonderirepliedatmyhesitationwhenyouhaveheardspeakhesaidandfearnotwelltheniwillspeakalthoughireallyknownothowtolookyouinthefaceorinwhatwordstouttertheaudaciousfictionwhichiproposetocommunicategraduallyfirsttotherulersthentothesoldiersandlastlytothepeopletheyaretobetoldthattheiryouthwasadreamandtheeducationandtrainingwhichtheyreceivedfromusanappearanceonlyinrealityduringallthattimetheywerebeingformedandfedinthewomboftheearthwheretheythemselvesandtheirarmsandappurtenancesweremanufacturedwhentheywerecompletedtheearththeirmothersentthemupandsotheircountrybeingtheirmotherandalsotheirnursetheyareboundtoadviseforhergoodandtodefendheragainstattacksandhercitizenstheyaretoregardaschildrenoftheearthandtheirownbrothersyouhadgoodreasonhesaidtobeashamedoftheliewhichyouweregoingtotelltrueirepliedbutthereismorecomingihaveonlytoldyouhalfcitizensweshallsaytotheminourtaleyouarebrothersyetgodhasframedyoudifferentlysomeofyouhavethepowerofcommandandinthecompositionofthesehehasmingledgoldwhereforealsotheyhavethegreatesthonourothershehasmadeofsilvertobeauxiliariesothersagainwhoaretobehusbandmenandcraftsmenhehascomposedofbrassandironandthespecieswillgenerallybepreservedinthechildrenbutasallareofthesameoriginalstockagoldenparentwillsometimeshaveasilversonorasilverparentagoldensonandgodproclaimsasafirstprincipletotherulersandaboveallelsethatthereisnothingwhichtheyshouldsoanxiouslyguardorofwhichtheyaretobesuchgoodguardiansasofthepurityoftheracetheyshouldobservewhatelementsmingleintheiroffspringforifthesonofagoldenorsilverparenthasanadmixtureofbrassandironthennatureordersatranspositionofranksandtheeyeoftherulermustnotbepitifultowardsthechildbecausehehastodescendinthescaleandbecomeahusbandmanorartisanjustastheremaybesonsofartisanswhohavinganadmixtureofgoldorsilverinthemareraisedtohonourandbecomeguardiansorauxiliariesforanoraclesaysthatwhenamanofbrassorironguardsthestateitwillbedestroyedsuchisthetaleisthereanypossibilityofmakingourcitizensbelieveinitnotinthepresentgenerationherepliedthereisnowayofaccomplishingthisbuttheirsonsmaybemadetobelieveinthetaleandtheirsonssonsandposterityafterthemiseethedifficultyirepliedyetthefosteringofsuchabeliefwillmakethemcaremoreforthecityandforoneanotherenoughhoweverofthefictionwhichmaynowflyabroaduponthewingsofrumourwhilewearmourearthbornheroesandleadthemforthunderthecommandoftheirrulersletthemlookroundandselectaspotwhencetheycanbestsuppressinsurrectionifanyproverefractorywithinandalsodefendthemselvesagainstenemieswholikewolvesmaycomedownonthefoldfromwithoutthereletthemencampandwhentheyhaveencampedletthemsacrificetothepropergodsandpreparetheirdwellingsjustsohesaidandtheirdwellingsmustbesuchaswillshieldthemagainstthecoldofwinterandtheheatofsummerisupposethatyoumeanhousesherepliedyesisaidbuttheymustbethehousesofsoldiersandnotofshopkeeperswhatisthedifferencehesaidthatiwillendeavourtoexplainirepliedtokeepwatchdogswhofromwantofdisciplineorhungerorsomeevilhabitorotherwouldturnuponthesheepandworrythemandbehavenotlikedogsbutwolveswouldbeafoulandmonstrousthinginashepherdtrulymonstroushesaidandthereforeeverycaremustbetakenthatourauxiliariesbeingstrongerthanourcitizensmaynotgrowtobetoomuchforthemandbecomesavagetyrantsinsteadoffriendsandalliesyesgreatcareshouldbetakenandwouldnotareallygoodeducationfurnishthebestsafeguardbuttheyarewelleducatedalreadyherepliedicannotbesoconfidentmydearglauconisaidiammuchmorecertainthattheyoughttobeandthattrueeducationwhateverthatmaybewillhavethegreatesttendencytocivilizeandhumanizethemintheirrelationstooneanotherandtothosewhoareundertheirprotectionverytrueherepliedandnotonlytheireducationbuttheirhabitationsandallthatbelongstothemshouldbesuchaswillneitherimpairtheirvirtueasguardiansnortemptthemtopreyupontheothercitizensanymanofsensemustacknowledgethathemustthennowletusconsiderwhatwillbetheirwayoflifeiftheyaretorealizeourideaoftheminthefirstplacenoneofthemshouldhaveanypropertyofhisownbeyondwhatisabsolutelynecessaryneithershouldtheyhaveaprivatehouseorstoreclosedagainstanyonewhohasamindtoentertheirprovisionsshouldbeonlysuchasarerequiredbytrainedwarriorswhoaremenoftemperanceandcouragetheyshouldagreetoreceivefromthecitizensafixedrateofpayenoughtomeettheexpensesoftheyearandnomoreandtheywillgotomessandlivetogetherlikesoldiersinacampgoldandsilverwewilltellthemthattheyhavefromgodthedivinermetaliswithinthemandtheyhavethereforenoneedofthedrosswhichiscurrentamongmenandoughtnottopollutethedivinebyanysuchearthlyadmixtureforthatcommonermetalhasbeenthesourceofmanyunholydeedsbuttheirownisundefiledandtheyaloneofallthecitizensmaynottouchorhandlesilverorgoldorbeunderthesameroofwiththemorwearthemordrinkfromthemandthiswillbetheirsalvationandtheywillbethesavioursofthestatebutshouldtheyeveracquirehomesorlandsormoneysoftheirowntheywillbecomehousekeepersandhusbandmeninsteadofguardiansenemiesandtyrantsinsteadofalliesoftheothercitizenshatingandbeinghatedplottingandbeingplottedagainsttheywillpasstheirwholelifeinmuchgreaterterrorofinternalthanofexternalenemiesandthehourofruinbothtothemselvesandtotherestofthestatewillbeathandforallwhichreasonsmaywenotsaythatthusshallourstatebeorderedandthattheseshallbetheregulationsappointedbyusforguardiansconcerningtheirhousesandallothermattersyessaidglauconbookivhereadeimantusinterposedaquestionhowwouldyouanswersocratessaidheifapersonweretosaythatyouaremakingthesepeoplemiserableandthattheyarethecauseoftheirownunhappinessthecityinfactbelongstothembuttheyarenonethebetterforitwhereasothermenacquirelandsandbuildlargeandhandsomehousesandhaveeverythinghandsomeaboutthemofferingsacrificestothegodsontheirownaccountandpractisinghospitalitymoreoverasyouweresayingjustnowtheyhavegoldandsilverandallthatisusualamongthefavouritesoffortunebutourpoorcitizensarenobetterthanmercenarieswhoarequarteredinthecityandarealwaysmountingguardyesisaidandyoumayaddthattheyareonlyfedandnotpaidinadditiontotheirfoodlikeothermenandthereforetheycannotiftheywouldtakeajourneyofpleasuretheyhavenomoneytospendonamistressoranyotherluxuriousfancywhichastheworldgoesisthoughttobehappinessandmanyotheraccusationsofthesamenaturemightbeaddedbutsaidheletussupposeallthistobeincludedinthechargeyoumeantoaskisaidwhatwillbeouransweryesifweproceedalongtheoldpathmybeliefisaidisthatweshallfindtheanswerandouranswerwillbethatevenastheyareourguardiansmayverylikelybethehappiestofmenbutthatouraiminfoundingthestatewasnotthedisproportionatehappinessofanyoneclassbutthegreatesthappinessofthewholewethoughtthatinastatewhichisorderedwithaviewtothegoodofthewholeweshouldbemostlikelytofindjusticeandintheillorderedstateinjusticeandhavingfoundthemwemightthendecidewhichofthetwoisthehappieratpresentitakeitwearefashioningthehappystatenotpiecemealorwithaviewofmakingafewhappycitizensbutasawholeandbyandbywewillproceedtoviewtheoppositekindofstatesupposethatwewerepaintingastatueandsomeonecameuptousandsaidwhydoyounotputthemostbeautifulcoloursonthemostbeautifulpartsofthebodytheeyesoughttobepurplebutyouhavemadethemblacktohimwemightfairlyanswersiryouwouldnotsurelyhaveusbeautifytheeyestosuchadegreethattheyarenolongereyesconsiderratherwhetherbygivingthisandtheotherfeaturestheirdueproportionwemakethewholebeautifulandsoisaytoyoudonotcompelustoassigntotheguardiansasortofhappinesswhichwillmakethemanythingbutguardiansforwetoocanclotheourhusbandmeninroyalapparelandsetcrownsofgoldontheirheadsandbidthemtillthegroundasmuchastheylikeandnomoreourpottersalsomightbeallowedtoreposeoncouchesandfeastbythefiresidepassingroundthewinecupwhiletheirwheelisconvenientlyathandandworkingatpotteryonlyasmuchastheylikeinthiswaywemightmakeeveryclasshappyandthenasyouimaginethewholestatewouldbehappybutdonotputthisideaintoourheadsforifwelistentoyouthehusbandmanwillbenolongerahusbandmanthepotterwillceasetobeapotterandnoonewillhavethecharacterofanydistinctclassinthestatenowthisisnotofmuchconsequencewherethecorruptionofsocietyandpretensiontobewhatyouarenotisconfinedtocobblersbutwhentheguardiansofthelawsandofthegovernmentareonlyseemingandnotrealguardiansthenseehowtheyturnthestateupsidedownandontheotherhandtheyalonehavethepowerofgivingorderandhappinesstothestatewemeanourguardianstobetruesavioursandnotthedestroyersofthestatewhereasouropponentisthinkingofpeasantsatafestivalwhoareenjoyingalifeofrevelrynotofcitizenswhoaredoingtheirdutytothestatebutifsowemeandifferentthingsandheisspeakingofsomethingwhichisnotastateandthereforewemustconsiderwhetherinappointingourguardianswewouldlooktotheirgreatesthappinessindividuallyorwhetherthisprincipleofhappinessdoesnotratherresideinthestateasawholebutifthelatterbethetruththentheguardiansandauxiliariesandallothersequallywiththemmustbecompelledorinducedtodotheirownworkinthebestwayandthusthewholestatewillgrowupinanobleorderandtheseveralclasseswillreceivetheproportionofhappinesswhichnatureassignstothemithinkthatyouarequiterightiwonderwhetheryouwillagreewithanotherremarkwhichoccurstomewhatmaythatbethereseemtobetwocausesofthedeteriorationoftheartswhataretheywealthisaidandpovertyhowdotheyacttheprocessisasfollowswhenapotterbecomesrichwillhethinkyouanylongertakethesamepainswithhisartcertainlynothewillgrowmoreandmoreindolentandcarelessverytrueandtheresultwillbethathebecomesaworsepotteryeshegreatlydeterioratesbutontheotherhandifhehasnomoneyandcannotprovidehimselfwithtoolsorinstrumentshewillnotworkequallywellhimselfnorwillheteachhissonsorapprenticestoworkequallywellcertainlynotthenundertheinfluenceeitherofpovertyorofwealthworkmenandtheirworkareequallyliabletodegeneratethatisevidentherethenisadiscoveryofnewevilsisaidagainstwhichtheguardianswillhavetowatchortheywillcreepintothecityunobservedwhatevilswealthisaidandpovertytheoneistheparentofluxuryandindolenceandtheotherofmeannessandviciousnessandbothofdiscontentthatisverytrueherepliedbutstillishouldliketoknowsocrateshowourcitywillbeabletogotowarespeciallyagainstanenemywhoisrichandpowerfulifdeprivedofthesinewsofwartherewouldcertainlybeadifficultyirepliedingoingtowarwithonesuchenemybutthereisnodifficultywheretherearetwoofthemhowsoheaskedinthefirstplaceisaidifwehavetofightoursidewillbetrainedwarriorsfightingagainstanarmyofrichmenthatistruehesaidanddoyounotsupposeadeimantusthatasingleboxerwhowasperfectinhisartwouldeasilybeamatchfortwostoutandwelltodogentlemenwhowerenotboxershardlyiftheycameuponhimatoncewhatnowisaidifhewereabletorunawayandthenturnandstrikeattheonewhofirstcameupandsupposingheweretodothisseveraltimesundertheheatofascorchingsunmighthenotbeinganexpertoverturnmorethanonestoutpersonagecertainlyhesaidtherewouldbenothingwonderfulinthatandyetrichmenprobablyhaveagreatersuperiorityinthescienceandpractiseofboxingthantheyhaveinmilitaryqualitieslikelyenoughthenwemayassumethatourathleteswillbeabletofightwithtwoorthreetimestheirownnumberiagreewithyouforithinkyourightandsupposethatbeforeengagingourcitizenssendanembassytooneofthetwocitiestellingthemwhatisthetruthsilverandgoldweneitherhavenorarepermittedtohavebutyoumaydoyouthereforecomeandhelpusinwarandtakethespoilsoftheothercitywhoonhearingthesewordswouldchoosetofightagainstleanwirydogsratherthanwiththedogsontheirsideagainstfatandtendersheepthatisnotlikelyandyettheremightbeadangertothepoorstateifthewealthofmanystatesweretobegatheredintoonebuthowsimpleofyoutousethetermstateatallofanybutourownwhysoyououghttospeakofotherstatesinthepluralnumbernotoneofthemisacitybutmanycitiesastheysayinthegameforindeedanycityhoweversmallisinfactdividedintotwoonethecityofthepoortheotheroftherichtheseareatwarwithoneanotherandineithertherearemanysmallerdivisionsandyouwouldbealtogetherbesidethemarkifyoutreatedthemallasasinglestatebutifyoudealwiththemasmanyandgivethewealthorpowerorpersonsoftheonetotheothersyouwillalwayshaveagreatmanyfriendsandnotmanyenemiesandyourstatewhilethewiseorderwhichhasnowbeenprescribedcontinuestoprevailinherwillbethegreatestofstatesidonotmeantosayinreputationorappearancebutindeedandtruththoughshenumbernotmorethanathousanddefendersasinglestatewhichisherequalyouwillhardlyfindeitheramonghellenesorbarbariansthoughmanythatappeartobeasgreatandmanytimesgreaterthatismosttruehesaidandwhatisaidwillbethebestlimitforourrulerstofixwhentheyareconsideringthesizeofthestateandtheamountofterritorywhichtheyaretoincludeandbeyondwhichtheywillnotgowhatlimitwouldyouproposeiwouldallowthestatetoincreasesofarasisconsistentwithunitythatithinkistheproperlimitverygoodhesaidherethenisaidisanotherorderwhichwillhavetobeconveyedtoourguardiansletourcitybeaccountedneitherlargenorsmallbutoneandselfsufficingandsurelysaidhethisisnotaverysevereorderwhichweimposeuponthemandtheothersaidiofwhichwewerespeakingbeforeislighterstillimeanthedutyofdegradingtheoffspringoftheguardianswheninferiorandofelevatingintotherankofguardianstheoffspringofthelowerclasseswhennaturallysuperiortheintentionwasthatinthecaseofthecitizensgenerallyeachindividualshouldbeputtotheuseforwhichnatureintendedhimonetooneworkandtheneverymanwoulddohisownbusinessandbeoneandnotmanyandsothewholecitywouldbeoneandnotmanyyeshesaidthatisnotsodifficulttheregulationswhichweareprescribingmygoodadeimantusarenotasmightbesupposedanumberofgreatprinciplesbuttriflesallifcarebetakenasthesayingisoftheonegreatthingathinghoweverwhichiwouldrathercallnotgreatbutsufficientforourpurposewhatmaythatbeheaskededucationisaidandnurtureifourcitizensarewelleducatedandgrowintosensiblementheywilleasilyseetheirwaythroughalltheseaswellasothermatterswhichiomitsuchforexampleasmarriagethepossessionofwomenandtheprocreationofchildrenwhichwillallfollowthegeneralprinciplethatfriendshaveallthingsincommonastheproverbsaysthatwillbethebestwayofsettlingthemalsoisaidthestateifoncestartedwellmoveswithaccumulatingforcelikeawheelforgoodnurtureandeducationimplantgoodconstitutionsandthesegoodconstitutionstakingrootinagoodeducationimprovemoreandmoreandthisimprovementaffectsthebreedinmanasinotheranimalsverypossiblyhesaidthentosumupthisisthepointtowhichabovealltheattentionofourrulersshouldbedirectedthatmusicandgymnasticbepreservedintheiroriginalformandnoinnovationmadetheymustdotheirutmosttomaintainthemintactandwhenanyonesaysthatmankindmostregardthenewestsongwhichthesingershavetheywillbeafraidthathemaybepraisingnotnewsongsbutanewkindofsongandthisoughtnottobepraisedorconceivedtobethemeaningofthepoetforanymusicalinnovationisfullofdangertothewholestateandoughttobeprohibitedsodamontellsmeandicanquitebelievehimhesaysthatwhenmodesofmusicchangethefundamentallawsofthestatealwayschangewiththemyessaidadeimantusandyoumayaddmysuffragetodamonsandyourownthenisaidourguardiansmustlaythefoundationsoftheirfortressinmusicyeshesaidthelawlessnessofwhichyouspeaktooeasilystealsinyesirepliedintheformofamusementandatfirstsightitappearsharmlesswhyyeshesaidandthereisnoharmwereitnotthatlittlebylittlethisspiritoflicencefindingahomeimperceptiblypenetratesintomannersandcustomswhenceissuingwithgreaterforceitinvadescontractsbetweenmanandmanandfromcontractsgoesontolawsandconstitutionsinutterrecklessnessendingatlastsocratesbyanoverthrowofallrightsprivateaswellaspublicisthattrueisaidthatismybeliefherepliedthenasiwassayingouryouthshouldbetrainedfromthefirstinastrictersystemforifamusementsbecomelawlessandtheyouthsthemselvesbecomelawlesstheycannevergrowupintowellconductedandvirtuouscitizensverytruehesaidandwhentheyhavemadeagoodbeginninginplayandbythehelpofmusichavegainedthehabitofgoodorderthenthishabitoforderinamannerhowunlikethelawlessplayoftheotherswillaccompanytheminalltheiractionsandbeaprincipleofgrowthtothemandiftherebeanyfallenplacesinthestatewillraisethemupagainverytruehesaidthuseducatedtheywillinventforthemselvesanylesserruleswhichtheirpredecessorshavealtogetherneglectedwhatdoyoumeanimeansuchthingsasthesewhentheyoungaretobesilentbeforetheireldershowtheyaretoshowrespecttothembystandingandmakingthemsitwhathonourisduetoparentswhatgarmentsorshoesaretobewornthemodeofdressingthehairdeportmentandmannersingeneralyouwouldagreewithmeyesbutthereisithinksmallwisdominlegislatingaboutsuchmattersidoubtifitiseverdonenorareanyprecisewrittenenactmentsaboutthemlikelytobelastingimpossibleitwouldseemadeimantusthatthedirectioninwhicheducationstartsamanwilldeterminehisfuturelifedoesnotlikealwaysattractliketobesureuntilsomeonerareandgrandresultisreachedwhichmaybegoodandmaybethereverseofgoodthatisnottobedeniedandforthisreasonisaidishallnotattempttolegislatefurtheraboutthemnaturallyenoughherepliedwellandaboutthebusinessoftheagoraandtheordinarydealingsbetweenmanandmanoragainaboutagreementswithartisansaboutinsultandinjuryorthecommencementofactionsandtheappointmentofjurieswhatwouldyousaytheremayalsoarisequestionsaboutanyimpositionsandexactionsofmarketandharbourdueswhichmayberequiredandingeneralabouttheregulationsofmarketspoliceharboursandthelikebutohheavensshallwecondescendtolegislateonanyoftheseparticularsithinkhesaidthatthereisnoneedtoimposelawsaboutthemongoodmenwhatregulationsarenecessarytheywillfindoutsoonenoughforthemselvesyesisaidmyfriendifgodwillonlypreservetothemthelawswhichwehavegiventhemandwithoutdivinehelpsaidadeimantustheywillgoonforevermakingandmendingtheirlawsandtheirlivesinthehopeofattainingperfectionyouwouldcomparethemisaidtothoseinvalidswhohavingnoselfrestraintwillnotleaveofftheirhabitsofintemperanceexactlyyesisaidandwhatadelightfullifetheyleadtheyarealwaysdoctoringandincreasingandcomplicatingtheirdisordersandalwaysfancyingthattheywillbecuredbyanynostrumwhichanybodyadvisesthemtotrysuchcasesareverycommonhesaidwithinvalidsofthissortyesirepliedandthecharmingthingisthattheydeemhimtheirworstenemywhotellsthemthetruthwhichissimplythatunlesstheygiveupeatinganddrinkingandwenchingandidlingneitherdrugnorcauterynorspellnoramuletnoranyotherremedywillavailcharmingherepliediseenothingcharmingingoingintoapassionwithamanwhotellsyouwhatisrightthesegentlemenisaiddonotseemtobeinyourgoodgracesassuredlynotnorwouldyoupraisethebehaviourofstateswhichactlikethemenwhomiwasjustnowdescribingforaretherenotillorderedstatesinwhichthecitizensareforbiddenunderpainofdeathtoaltertheconstitutionandyethewhomostsweetlycourtsthosewholiveunderthisregimeandindulgesthemandfawnsuponthemandisskilfulinanticipatingandgratifyingtheirhumoursisheldtobeagreatandgoodstatesmandonotthesestatesresemblethepersonswhomiwasdescribingyeshesaidthestatesareasbadasthemenandiamveryfarfrompraisingthembutdoyounotadmireisaidthecoolnessanddexterityofthesereadyministersofpoliticalcorruptionyeshesaididobutnotofallofthemfortherearesomewhomtheapplauseofthemultitudehasdeludedintothebeliefthattheyarereallystatesmenandthesearenotmuchtobeadmiredwhatdoyoumeanisaidyoushouldhavemorefeelingforthemwhenamancannotmeasureandagreatmanyotherswhocannotmeasuredeclarethatheisfourcubitshighcanhehelpbelievingwhattheysaynayhesaidcertainlynotinthatcasewellthendonotbeangrywiththemforaretheynotasgoodasaplaytryingtheirhandatpaltryreformssuchasiwasdescribingtheyarealwaysfancyingthatbylegislationtheywillmakeanendoffraudsincontractsandtheotherrascalitieswhichiwasmentioningnotknowingthattheyareinrealitycuttingofftheheadsofahydrayeshesaidthatisjustwhattheyaredoingiconceiveisaidthatthetruelegislatorwillnottroublehimselfwiththisclassofenactmentswhetherconcerninglawsortheconstitutioneitherinanillorderedorinawellorderedstateforintheformertheyarequiteuselessandinthelattertherewillbenodifficultyindevisingthemandmanyofthemwillnaturallyflowoutofourpreviousregulationswhatthenhesaidisstillremainingtousoftheworkoflegislationnothingtousirepliedbuttoapollothegodofdelphithereremainstheorderingofthegreatestandnoblestandchiefestthingsofallwhicharetheyhesaidtheinstitutionoftemplesandsacrificesandtheentireserviceofgodsdemigodsandheroesalsotheorderingoftherepositoriesofthedeadandtheriteswhichhavetobeobservedbyhimwhowouldpropitiatetheinhabitantsoftheworldbelowthesearemattersofwhichweareignorantourselvesandasfoundersofacityweshouldbeunwiseintrustingthemtoanyinterpreterbutourancestraldeityheisthegodwhositsinthecentreonthenaveloftheearthandheistheinterpreterofreligiontoallmankindyouarerightandwewilldoasyouproposebutwhereamidallthisisjusticesonofaristontellmewherenowthatourcityhasbeenmadehabitablelightacandleandsearchandgetyourbrotherandpolemarchusandtherestofourfriendstohelpandletusseewhereinitwecandiscoverjusticeandwhereinjusticeandinwhattheydifferfromoneanotherandwhichofthemthemanwhowouldbehappyshouldhaveforhisportionwhetherseenorunseenbygodsandmennonsensesaidglaucondidyounotpromisetosearchyourselfsayingthatforyounottohelpjusticeinherneedwouldbeanimpietyidonotdenythatisaidsoandasyouremindmeiwillbeasgoodasmywordbutyoumustjoinwewillherepliedwellthenihopetomakethediscoveryinthiswayimeantobeginwiththeassumptionthatourstateifrightlyorderedisperfectthatismostcertainandbeingperfectisthereforewiseandvaliantandtemperateandjustthatislikewiseclearandwhicheverofthesequalitieswefindinthestatetheonewhichisnotfoundwillbetheresidueverygoodiftherewerefourthingsandweweresearchingforoneofthemwhereveritmightbetheonesoughtformightbeknowntousfromthefirstandtherewouldbenofurthertroubleorwemightknowtheotherthreefirstandthenthefourthwouldclearlybetheoneleftverytruehesaidandisnotasimilarmethodtobepursuedaboutthevirtueswhicharealsofourinnumberclearlyfirstamongthevirtuesfoundinthestatewisdomcomesintoviewandinthisidetectacertainpeculiaritywhatisthatthestatewhichwehavebeendescribingissaidtobewiseasbeinggoodincounselverytrueandgoodcounselisclearlyakindofknowledgefornotbyignorancebutbyknowledgedomencounselwellclearlyandthekindsofknowledgeinastatearemanyanddiverseofcoursethereistheknowledgeofthecarpenterbutisthatthesortofknowledgewhichgivesacitythetitleofwiseandgoodincounselcertainlynotthatwouldonlygiveacitythereputationofskillincarpenteringthenacityisnottobecalledwisebecausepossessingaknowledgewhichcounselsforthebestaboutwoodenimplementscertainlynotnorbyreasonofaknowledgewhichadvisesaboutbrazenpotsisaidnoraspossessinganyothersimilarknowledgenotbyreasonofanyofthemhesaidnoryetbyreasonofaknowledgewhichcultivatestheearththatwouldgivethecitythenameofagriculturalyeswellisaidandisthereanyknowledgeinourrecentlyfoundedstateamonganyofthecitizenswhichadvisesnotaboutanyparticularthinginthestatebutaboutthewholeandconsidershowastatecanbestdealwithitselfandwithotherstatestherecertainlyisandwhatisthisknowledgeandamongwhomisitfoundiaskeditistheknowledgeoftheguardiansherepliedandisfoundamongthosewhomwewerejustnowdescribingasperfectguardiansandwhatisthenamewhichthecityderivesfromthepossessionofthissortofknowledgethenameofgoodincounselandtrulywiseandwilltherebeinourcitymoreofthesetrueguardiansormoresmithsthesmithsherepliedwillbefarmorenumerouswillnottheguardiansbethesmallestofalltheclasseswhoreceiveanamefromtheprofessionofsomekindofknowledgemuchthesmallestandsobyreasonofthesmallestpartorclassandoftheknowledgewhichresidesinthispresidingandrulingpartofitselfthewholestatebeingthusconstitutedaccordingtonaturewillbewiseandthiswhichhastheonlyknowledgeworthytobecalledwisdomhasbeenordainedbynaturetobeofallclassestheleastmosttruethusthenisaidthenatureandplaceinthestateofoneofthefourvirtueshassomehoworotherbeendiscoveredandinmyhumbleopinionverysatisfactorilydiscoveredherepliedagainisaidthereisnodifficultyinseeingthenatureofcourageandinwhatpartthatqualityresideswhichgivesthenameofcourageoustothestatehowdoyoumeanwhyisaideveryonewhocallsanystatecourageousorcowardlywillbethinkingofthepartwhichfightsandgoesouttowaronthestatesbehalfnooneherepliedwouldeverthinkofanyothertherestofthecitizensmaybecourageousormaybecowardlybuttheircourageorcowardicewillnotasiconceivehavetheeffectofmakingthecityeithertheoneortheothercertainlynotthecitywillbecourageousinvirtueofaportionofherselfwhichpreservesunderallcircumstancesthatopinionaboutthenatureofthingstobefearedandnottobefearedinwhichourlegislatoreducatedthemandthisiswhatyoutermcourageishouldliketohearwhatyouaresayingoncemoreforidonotthinkthatiperfectlyunderstandyouimeanthatcourageisakindofsalvationsalvationofwhatoftheopinionrespectingthingstobefearedwhattheyareandofwhatnaturewhichthelawimplantsthrougheducationandimeanbythewordsunderallcircumstancestointimatethatinpleasureorinpainorundertheinfluenceofdesireorfearamanpreservesanddoesnotlosethisopinionshalligiveyouanillustrationifyoupleaseyouknowisaidthatdyerswhentheywanttodyewoolformakingthetrueseapurplebeginbyselectingtheirwhitecolourfirstthistheyprepareanddresswithmuchcareandpainsinorderthatthewhitegroundmaytakethepurplehueinfullperfectionthedyeingthenproceedsandwhateverisdyedinthismannerbecomesafastcolourandnowashingeitherwithlyesorwithoutthemcantakeawaythebloombutwhenthegroundhasnotbeendulypreparedyouwillhavenoticedhowpooristhelookeitherofpurpleorofanyothercolouryeshesaidiknowthattheyhaveawashedoutandridiculousappearancethennowisaidyouwillunderstandwhatourobjectwasinselectingoursoldiersandeducatingtheminmusicandgymnasticwewerecontrivinginfluenceswhichwouldpreparethemtotakethedyeofthelawsinperfectionandthecolouroftheiropinionaboutdangersandofeveryotheropinionwastobeindeliblyfixedbytheirnurtureandtrainingnottobewashedawaybysuchpotentlyesaspleasuremightieragentfarinwashingthesoulthananysodaorlyeorbysorrowfearanddesirethemightiestofallothersolventsandthissortofuniversalsavingpoweroftrueopinioninconformitywithlawaboutrealandfalsedangersicallandmaintaintobecourageunlessyoudisagreebutiagreeherepliedforisupposethatyoumeantoexcludemereuninstructedcouragesuchasthatofawildbeastorofaslavethisinyouropinionisnotthecouragewhichthelawordainsandoughttohaveanothernamemostcertainlythenimayinfercouragetobesuchasyoudescribewhyyessaidiyoumayandifyouaddthewordsofacitizenyouwillnotbefarwronghereafterifyoulikewewillcarrytheexaminationfurtherbutatpresentweareseekingnotforcouragebutjusticeandforthepurposeofourenquirywehavesaidenoughyouarerightherepliedtwovirtuesremaintobediscoveredinthestatefirsttemperanceandthenjusticewhichistheendofoursearchverytruenowcanwefindjusticewithouttroublingourselvesabouttemperanceidonotknowhowthatcanbeaccomplishedhesaidnordoidesirethatjusticeshouldbebroughttolightandtemperancelostsightofandthereforeiwishthatyouwoulddomethefavourofconsideringtemperancefirstcertainlyirepliedishouldnotbejustifiedinrefusingyourrequestthenconsiderhesaidyesirepliediwillandasfarasicanatpresentseethevirtueoftemperancehasmoreofthenatureofharmonyandsymphonythantheprecedinghowsoheaskedtemperanceirepliedistheorderingorcontrollingofcertainpleasuresanddesiresthisiscuriouslyenoughimpliedinthesayingofamanbeinghisownmasterandothertracesofthesamenotionmaybefoundinlanguagenodoubthesaidthereissomethingridiculousintheexpressionmasterofhimselfforthemasterisalsotheservantandtheservantthemasterandinallthesemodesofspeakingthesamepersonisdenotedcertainlythemeaningisibelievethatinthehumansoulthereisabetterandalsoaworseprincipleandwhenthebetterhastheworseundercontrolthenamanissaidtobemasterofhimselfandthisisatermofpraisebutwhenowingtoevileducationorassociationthebetterprinciplewhichisalsothesmallerisoverwhelmedbythegreatermassoftheworseinthiscaseheisblamedandiscalledtheslaveofselfandunprincipledyesthereisreasoninthatandnowisaidlookatournewlycreatedstateandthereyouwillfindoneofthesetwoconditionsrealizedforthestateasyouwillacknowledgemaybejustlycalledmasterofitselfifthewordstemperanceandselfmasterytrulyexpresstheruleofthebetterpartovertheworseyeshesaidiseethatwhatyousayistrueletmefurthernotethatthemanifoldandcomplexpleasuresanddesiresandpainsaregenerallyfoundinchildrenandwomenandservantsandinthefreemensocalledwhoareofthelowestandmorenumerousclasscertainlyhesaidwhereasthesimpleandmoderatedesireswhichfollowreasonandareundertheguidanceofmindandtrueopinionaretobefoundonlyinafewandthosethebestbornandbesteducatedverytruethesetwoasyoumayperceivehaveaplaceinourstateandthemeanerdesiresofthemanyarehelddownbythevirtuousdesiresandwisdomofthefewthatiperceivehesaidtheniftherebeanycitywhichmaybedescribedasmasterofitsownpleasuresanddesiresandmasterofitselfoursmayclaimsuchadesignationcertainlyhereplieditmayalsobecalledtemperateandforthesamereasonsyesandiftherebeanystateinwhichrulersandsubjectswillbeagreedastothequestionwhoaretorulethatagainwillbeourstateundoubtedlyandthecitizensbeingthusagreedamongthemselvesinwhichclasswilltemperancebefoundintherulersorinthesubjectsinbothasishouldimaginehereplieddoyouobservethatwewerenotfarwronginourguessthattemperancewasasortofharmonywhysowhybecausetemperanceisunlikecourageandwisdomeachofwhichresidesinapartonlytheonemakingthestatewiseandtheothervaliantnotsotemperancewhichextendstothewholeandrunsthroughallthenotesofthescaleandproducesaharmonyoftheweakerandthestrongerandthemiddleclasswhetheryousupposethemtobestrongerorweakerinwisdomorpowerornumbersorwealthoranythingelsemosttrulythenmaywedeemtemperancetobetheagreementofthenaturallysuperiorandinferiorastotherighttoruleofeitherbothinstatesandindividualsientirelyagreewithyouandsoisaidwemayconsiderthreeoutofthefourvirtuestohavebeendiscoveredinourstatethelastofthosequalitieswhichmakeastatevirtuousmustbejusticeifweonlyknewwhatthatwastheinferenceisobviousthetimethenhasarrivedglauconwhenlikehuntsmenweshouldsurroundthecoverandlooksharpthatjusticedoesnotstealawayandpassoutofsightandescapeusforbeyondadoubtsheissomewhereinthiscountrywatchthereforeandstrivetocatchasightofherandifyouseeherfirstletmeknowwouldthaticouldbutyoushouldregardmeratherasafollowerwhohasjusteyesenoughtoseewhatyoushowhimthatisaboutasmuchasiamgoodforofferupaprayerwithmeandfollowiwillbutyoumustshowmethewayhereisnopathisaidandthewoodisdarkandperplexingstillwemustpushonletuspushonhereisawsomethinghallooisaidibegintoperceiveatrackandibelievethatthequarrywillnotescapegoodnewshesaidtrulyisaidwearestupidfellowswhysowhymygoodsiratthebeginningofourenquiryagesagotherewasjusticetumblingoutatourfeetandweneversawhernothingcouldbemoreridiculouslikepeoplewhogoaboutlookingforwhattheyhaveintheirhandsthatwasthewaywithuswelookednotatwhatwewereseekingbutatwhatwasfaroffinthedistanceandthereforeisupposewemissedherwhatdoyoumeanimeantosaythatinrealityforalongtimepastwehavebeentalkingofjusticeandhavefailedtorecogniseherigrowimpatientatthelengthofyourexordiumwellthentellmeisaidwhetheriamrightornotyouremembertheoriginalprinciplewhichwewerealwayslayingdownatthefoundationofthestatethatonemanshouldpractiseonethingonlythethingtowhichhisnaturewasbestadaptednowjusticeisthisprincipleorapartofityesweoftensaidthatonemanshoulddoonethingonlyfurtherweaffirmedthatjusticewasdoingonesownbusinessandnotbeingabusybodywesaidsoagainandagainandmanyothershavesaidthesametousyeswesaidsothentodoonesownbusinessinacertainwaymaybeassumedtobejusticecanyoutellmewhenceiderivethisinferenceicannotbutishouldliketobetoldbecauseithinkthatthisistheonlyvirtuewhichremainsinthestatewhentheothervirtuesoftemperanceandcourageandwisdomareabstractedandthatthisistheultimatecauseandconditionoftheexistenceofallofthemandwhileremaininginthemisalsotheirpreservativeandweweresayingthatifthethreewerediscoveredbyusjusticewouldbethefourthorremainingonethatfollowsofnecessityifweareaskedtodeterminewhichofthesefourqualitiesbyitspresencecontributesmosttotheexcellenceofthestatewhethertheagreementofrulersandsubjectsorthepreservationinthesoldiersoftheopinionwhichthelawordainsaboutthetruenatureofdangersorwisdomandwatchfulnessintherulersorwhetherthisotherwhichiammentioningandwhichisfoundinchildrenandwomenslaveandfreemanartisanrulersubjectthequalityimeanofeveryonedoinghisownworkandnotbeingabusybodywouldclaimthepalmthequestionisnotsoeasilyansweredcertainlyherepliedtherewouldbeadifficultyinsayingwhichthenthepowerofeachindividualinthestatetodohisownworkappearstocompetewiththeotherpoliticalvirtueswisdomtemperancecourageyeshesaidandthevirtuewhichentersintothiscompetitionisjusticeexactlyletuslookatthequestionfromanotherpointofviewarenottherulersinastatethosetowhomyouwouldentrusttheofficeofdeterminingsuitsatlawcertainlyandaresuitsdecidedonanyothergroundbutthatamanmayneithertakewhatisanothersnorbedeprivedofwhatishisownyesthatistheirprinciplewhichisajustprincipleyesthenonthisviewalsojusticewillbeadmittedtobethehavinganddoingwhatisamansownandbelongstohimverytruethinknowandsaywhetheryouagreewithmeornotsupposeacarpentertobedoingthebusinessofacobbleroracobblerofacarpenterandsupposethemtoexchangetheirimplementsortheirdutiesorthesamepersontobedoingtheworkofbothorwhateverbethechangedoyouthinkthatanygreatharmwouldresulttothestatenotmuchbutwhenthecobbleroranyothermanwhomnaturedesignedtobeatraderhavinghisheartliftedupbywealthorstrengthorthenumberofhisfollowersoranylikeadvantageattemptstoforcehiswayintotheclassofwarriorsorawarriorintothatoflegislatorsandguardiansforwhichheisunfittedandeithertotaketheimplementsorthedutiesoftheotherorwhenonemanistraderlegislatorandwarriorallinonethenithinkyouwillagreewithmeinsayingthatthisinterchangeandthismeddlingofonewithanotheristheruinofthestatemosttrueseeingthenisaidthattherearethreedistinctclassesanymeddlingofonewithanotherorthechangeofoneintoanotheristhegreatestharmtothestateandmaybemostjustlytermedevildoingpreciselyandthegreatestdegreeofevildoingtoonesowncitywouldbetermedbyyouinjusticecertainlythisthenisinjusticeandontheotherhandwhenthetradertheauxiliaryandtheguardianeachdotheirownbusinessthatisjusticeandwillmakethecityjustiagreewithyouwewillnotisaidbeoverpositiveasyetbutifontrialthisconceptionofjusticebeverifiedintheindividualaswellasinthestatetherewillbenolongeranyroomfordoubtifitbenotverifiedwemusthaveafreshenquiryfirstletuscompletetheoldinvestigationwhichwebeganasyourememberundertheimpressionthatifwecouldpreviouslyexaminejusticeonthelargerscaletherewouldbelessdifficultyindiscerningherintheindividualthatlargerexampleappearedtobethestateandaccordinglyweconstructedasgoodaoneaswecouldknowingwellthatinthegoodstatejusticewouldbefoundletthediscoverywhichwemadebenowappliedtotheindividualiftheyagreeweshallbesatisfiedoriftherebeadifferenceintheindividualwewillcomebacktothestateandhaveanothertrialofthetheorythefrictionofthetwowhenrubbedtogethermaypossiblystrikealightinwhichjusticewillshineforthandthevisionwhichisthenrevealedwewillfixinoursoulsthatwillbeinregularcourseletusdoasyousayiproceededtoaskwhentwothingsagreaterandlessarecalledbythesamenamearetheylikeorunlikeinsofarastheyarecalledthesamelikeherepliedthejustmanthenifweregardtheideaofjusticeonlywillbelikethejuststatehewillandastatewasthoughtbyustobejustwhenthethreeclassesinthestateseverallydidtheirownbusinessandalsothoughttobetemperateandvaliantandwisebyreasonofcertainotheraffectionsandqualitiesofthesesameclassestruehesaidandsooftheindividualwemayassumethathehasthesamethreeprinciplesinhisownsoulwhicharefoundinthestateandhemayberightlydescribedinthesametermsbecauseheisaffectedinthesamemannercertainlyhesaidoncemorethenomyfriendwehavealighteduponaneasyquestionwhetherthesoulhasthesethreeprinciplesornotaneasyquestionnayrathersocratestheproverbholdsthathardisthegoodverytrueisaidandidonotthinkthatthemethodwhichweareemployingisatalladequatetotheaccuratesolutionofthisquestionthetruemethodisanotherandalongeronestillwemayarriveatasolutionnotbelowthelevelofthepreviousenquirymaywenotbesatisfiedwiththathesaidunderthecircumstancesiamquitecontentitooirepliedshallbeextremelywellsatisfiedthenfaintnotinpursuingthespeculationhesaidmustwenotacknowledgeisaidthatineachofustherearethesameprinciplesandhabitswhichthereareinthestateandthatfromtheindividualtheypassintothestatehowelsecantheycometheretakethequalityofpassionorspirititwouldberidiculoustoimaginethatthisqualitywhenfoundinstatesisnotderivedfromtheindividualswhoaresupposedtopossessitegthethraciansscythiansandingeneralthenorthernnationsandthesamemaybesaidoftheloveofknowledgewhichisthespecialcharacteristicofourpartoftheworldoroftheloveofmoneywhichmaywithequaltruthbeattributedtothephoeniciansandegyptiansexactlysohesaidthereisnodifficultyinunderstandingthisnonewhateverbutthequestionisnotquitesoeasywhenweproceedtoaskwhethertheseprinciplesarethreeoronewhetherthatistosaywelearnwithonepartofournatureareangrywithanotherandwithathirdpartdesirethesatisfactionofournaturalappetitesorwhetherthewholesoulcomesintoplayineachsortofactiontodeterminethatisthedifficultyyeshesaidthereliesthedifficultythenletusnowtryanddeterminewhethertheyarethesameordifferenthowcanweheaskedirepliedasfollowsthesamethingclearlycannotactorbeacteduponinthesamepartorinrelationtothesamethingatthesametimeincontrarywaysandthereforewheneverthiscontradictionoccursinthingsapparentlythesameweknowthattheyarereallynotthesamebutdifferentgoodforexampleisaidcanthesamethingbeatrestandinmotionatthesametimeinthesamepartimpossiblestillisaidletushaveamoreprecisestatementoftermslestweshouldhereafterfalloutbythewayimaginethecaseofamanwhoisstandingandalsomovinghishandsandhisheadandsupposeapersontosaythatoneandthesamepersonisinmotionandatrestatthesamemomenttosuchamodeofspeechweshouldobjectandshouldrathersaythatonepartofhimisinmotionwhileanotherisatrestverytrueandsupposetheobjectortorefinestillfurtherandtodrawthenicedistinctionthatnotonlypartsoftopsbutwholetopswhentheyspinroundwiththeirpegsfixedonthespotareatrestandinmotionatthesametimeandhemaysaythesameofanythingwhichrevolvesinthesamespothisobjectionwouldnotbeadmittedbyusbecauseinsuchcasesthingsarenotatrestandinmotioninthesamepartsofthemselvesweshouldrathersaythattheyhavebothanaxisandacircumferenceandthattheaxisstandsstillforthereisnodeviationfromtheperpendicularandthatthecircumferencegoesroundbutifwhilerevolvingtheaxisinclineseithertotherightorleftforwardsorbackwardstheninnopointofviewcantheybeatrestthatisthecorrectmodeofdescribingthemherepliedthennoneoftheseobjectionswillconfuseusorinclineustobelievethatthesamethingatthesametimeinthesamepartorinrelationtothesamethingcanactorbeacteduponincontrarywayscertainlynotaccordingtomywayofthinkingyetisaidthatwemaynotbecompelledtoexamineallsuchobjectionsandproveatlengththattheyareuntrueletusassumetheirabsurdityandgoforwardontheunderstandingthathereafterifthisassumptionturnouttobeuntruealltheconsequenceswhichfollowshallbewithdrawnyeshesaidthatwillbethebestwaywellisaidwouldyounotallowthatassentanddissentdesireandaversionattractionandrepulsionareallofthemoppositeswhethertheyareregardedasactiveorpassiveforthatmakesnodifferenceinthefactoftheiroppositionyeshesaidtheyareoppositeswellisaidandhungerandthirstandthedesiresingeneralandagainwillingandwishingalltheseyouwouldrefertotheclassesalreadymentionedyouwouldsaywouldyounotthatthesoulofhimwhodesiresisseekingaftertheobjectofhisdesireorthatheisdrawingtohimselfthethingwhichhewishestopossessoragainwhenapersonwantsanythingtobegivenhimhismindlongingfortherealizationofhisdesireintimateshiswishtohaveitbyanodofassentasifhehadbeenaskedaquestionverytrueandwhatwouldyousayofunwillingnessanddislikeandtheabsenceofdesireshouldnotthesebereferredtotheoppositeclassofrepulsionandrejectioncertainlyadmittingthistobetrueofdesiregenerallyletussupposeaparticularclassofdesiresandoutofthesewewillselecthungerandthirstastheyaretermedwhicharethemostobviousofthemletustakethatclasshesaidtheobjectofoneisfoodandoftheotherdrinkyesandherecomesthepointisnotthirstthedesirewhichthesoulhasofdrinkandofdrinkonlynotofdrinkqualifiedbyanythingelseforexamplewarmorcoldormuchorlittleorinaworddrinkofanyparticularsortbutifthethirstbeaccompaniedbyheatthenthedesireisofcolddrinkorifaccompaniedbycoldthenofwarmdrinkorifthethirstbeexcessivethenthedrinkwhichisdesiredwillbeexcessiveorifnotgreatthequantityofdrinkwillalsobesmallbutthirstpureandsimplewilldesiredrinkpureandsimplewhichisthenaturalsatisfactionofthirstasfoodisofhungeryeshesaidthesimpledesireisasyousayineverycaseofthesimpleobjectandthequalifieddesireofthequalifiedobjectbuthereaconfusionmayariseandishouldwishtoguardagainstanopponentstartingupandsayingthatnomandesiresdrinkonlybutgooddrinkorfoodonlybutgoodfoodforgoodistheuniversalobjectofdesireandthirstbeingadesirewillnecessarilybethirstaftergooddrinkandthesameistrueofeveryotherdesireyesherepliedtheopponentmighthavesomethingtosayneverthelessishouldstillmaintainthatofrelativessomehaveaqualityattachedtoeithertermoftherelationothersaresimpleandhavetheircorrelativessimpleidonotknowwhatyoumeanwellyouknowofcoursethatthegreaterisrelativetothelesscertainlyandthemuchgreatertothemuchlessyesandthesometimegreatertothesometimelessandthegreaterthatistobetothelessthatistobecertainlyhesaidandsoofmoreandlessandofothercorrelativetermssuchasthedoubleandthehalforagaintheheavierandthelightertheswifterandtheslowerandofhotandcoldandofanyotherrelativesisnotthistrueofallofthemyesanddoesnotthesameprincipleholdinthesciencestheobjectofscienceisknowledgeassumingthattobethetruedefinitionbuttheobjectofaparticularscienceisaparticularkindofknowledgeimeanforexamplethatthescienceofhousebuildingisakindofknowledgewhichisdefinedanddistinguishedfromotherkindsandisthereforetermedarchitecturecertainlybecauseithasaparticularqualitywhichnootherhasyesandithasthisparticularqualitybecauseithasanobjectofaparticularkindandthisistrueoftheotherartsandsciencesyesnowthenifihavemademyselfclearyouwillunderstandmyoriginalmeaninginwhatisaidaboutrelativesmymeaningwasthatifonetermofarelationistakenalonetheotheristakenaloneifonetermisqualifiedtheotherisalsoqualifiedidonotmeantosaythatrelativesmaynotbedisparateorthatthescienceofhealthishealthyorofdiseasenecessarilydiseasedorthatthesciencesofgoodandevilarethereforegoodandevilbutonlythatwhenthetermscienceisnolongerusedabsolutelybuthasaqualifiedobjectwhichinthiscaseisthenatureofhealthanddiseaseitbecomesdefinedandishencecallednotmerelysciencebutthescienceofmedicineiquiteunderstandandithinkasyoudowouldyounotsaythatthirstisoneoftheseessentiallyrelativetermshavingclearlyarelationyesthirstisrelativetodrinkandacertainkindofthirstisrelativetoacertainkindofdrinkbutthirsttakenaloneisneitherofmuchnorlittlenorofgoodnorbadnorofanyparticularkindofdrinkbutofdrinkonlycertainlythenthesoulofthethirstyoneinsofarasheisthirstydesiresonlydrinkforthisheyearnsandtriestoobtainitthatisplainandifyousupposesomethingwhichpullsathirstysoulawayfromdrinkthatmustbedifferentfromthethirstyprinciplewhichdrawshimlikeabeasttodrinkforasweweresayingthesamethingcannotatthesametimewiththesamepartofitselfactincontrarywaysaboutthesameimpossiblenomorethanyoucansaythatthehandsofthearcherpushandpullthebowatthesametimebutwhatyousayisthatonehandpushesandtheotherpullsexactlysoherepliedandmightamanbethirstyandyetunwillingtodrinkyeshesaiditconstantlyhappensandinsuchacasewhatisonetosaywouldyounotsaythattherewassomethinginthesoulbiddingamantodrinkandsomethingelseforbiddinghimwhichisotherandstrongerthantheprinciplewhichbidshimishouldsaysoandtheforbiddingprincipleisderivedfromreasonandthatwhichbidsandattractsproceedsfrompassionanddiseaseclearlythenwemayfairlyassumethattheyaretwoandthattheydifferfromoneanothertheonewithwhichamanreasonswemaycalltherationalprincipleofthesoultheotherwithwhichhelovesandhungersandthirstsandfeelstheflutteringsofanyotherdesiremaybetermedtheirrationalorappetitivetheallyofsundrypleasuresandsatisfactionsyeshesaidwemayfairlyassumethemtobedifferentthenletusfinallydeterminethattherearetwoprinciplesexistinginthesoulandwhatofpassionorspiritisitathirdorakintooneoftheprecedingishouldbeinclinedtosayakintodesirewellisaidthereisastorywhichiremembertohaveheardandinwhichiputfaiththestoryisthatleontiusthesonofaglaioncominguponedayfromthepiraeusunderthenorthwallontheoutsideobservedsomedeadbodieslyingonthegroundattheplaceofexecutionhefeltadesiretoseethemandalsoadreadandabhorrenceofthemforatimehestruggledandcoveredhiseyesbutatlengththedesiregotthebetterofhimandforcingthemopenheranuptothedeadbodiessayinglookyewretchestakeyourfillofthefairsightihaveheardthestorymyselfhesaidthemoralofthetaleisthatangerattimesgoestowarwithdesireasthoughtheyweretwodistinctthingsyesthatisthemeaninghesaidandaretherenotmanyothercasesinwhichweobservethatwhenamansdesiresviolentlyprevailoverhisreasonherevileshimselfandisangryattheviolencewithinhimandthatinthisstrugglewhichislikethestruggleoffactionsinastatehisspiritisonthesideofhisreasonbutforthepassionateorspiritedelementtotakepartwiththedesireswhenreasondecidesthatsheshouldnotbeopposedisasortofthingwhichibelievethatyouneverobservedoccurringinyourselfnorasishouldimagineinanyoneelsecertainlynotsupposethatamanthinkshehasdoneawrongtoanotherthenoblerheisthelessableishetofeelindignantatanysufferingsuchashungerorcoldoranyotherpainwhichtheinjuredpersonmayinflictuponhimthesehedeemstobejustandasisayhisangerrefusestobeexcitedbythemtruehesaidbutwhenhethinksthatheisthesuffererofthewrongthenheboilsandchafesandisonthesideofwhathebelievestobejusticeandbecausehesuffershungerorcoldorotherpainheisonlythemoredeterminedtopersevereandconquerhisnoblespiritwillnotbequelleduntilheeitherslaysorisslainoruntilhehearsthevoiceoftheshepherdthatisreasonbiddinghisdogbarknomoretheillustrationisperfectherepliedandinourstateasweweresayingtheauxiliariesweretobedogsandtohearthevoiceoftherulerswhoaretheirshepherdsiperceiveisaidthatyouquiteunderstandmethereishoweverafurtherpointwhichiwishyoutoconsiderwhatpointyourememberthatpassionorspiritappearedatfirstsighttobeakindofdesirebutnowweshouldsayquitethecontraryforintheconflictofthesoulspiritisarrayedonthesideoftherationalprinciplemostassuredlybutafurtherquestionarisesispassiondifferentfromreasonalsooronlyakindofreasoninwhichlattercaseinsteadofthreeprinciplesinthesoultherewillonlybetwotherationalandtheconcupiscentorratherasthestatewascomposedofthreeclassestradersauxiliariescounsellorssomaytherenotbeintheindividualsoulathirdelementwhichispassionorspiritandwhennotcorruptedbybadeducationisthenaturalauxiliaryofreasonyeshesaidtheremustbeathirdyesirepliedifpassionwhichhasalreadybeenshowntobedifferentfromdesireturnoutalsotobedifferentfromreasonbutthatiseasilyprovedwemayobserveeveninyoungchildrenthattheyarefullofspiritalmostassoonastheyarebornwhereassomeofthemneverseemtoattaintotheuseofreasonandmostofthemlateenoughexcellentisaidandyoumayseepassionequallyinbruteanimalswhichisafurtherproofofthetruthofwhatyouaresayingandwemayoncemoreappealtothewordsofhomerwhichhavebeenalreadyquotedbyushesmotehisbreastandthusrebukedhissoulforinthisversehomerhasclearlysupposedthepowerwhichreasonsaboutthebetterandworsetobedifferentfromtheunreasoningangerwhichisrebukedbyitverytruehesaidandsoaftermuchtossingwehavereachedlandandarefairlyagreedthatthesameprincipleswhichexistinthestateexistalsointheindividualandthattheyarethreeinnumberexactlymustwenottheninferthattheindividualiswiseinthesamewayandinvirtueofthesamequalitywhichmakesthestatewisecertainlyalsothatthesamequalitywhichconstitutescourageinthestateconstitutescourageintheindividualandthatboththestateandtheindividualbearthesamerelationtoalltheothervirtuesassuredlyandtheindividualwillbeacknowledgedbyustobejustinthesamewayinwhichthestateisjustthatfollowsofcoursewecannotbutrememberthatthejusticeofthestateconsistedineachofthethreeclassesdoingtheworkofitsownclasswearenotverylikelytohaveforgottenhesaidwemustrecollectthattheindividualinwhomtheseveralqualitiesofhisnaturedotheirownworkwillbejustandwilldohisownworkyeshesaidwemustrememberthattooandoughtnottherationalprinciplewhichiswiseandhasthecareofthewholesoultoruleandthepassionateorspiritedprincipletobethesubjectandallycertainlyandasweweresayingtheunitedinfluenceofmusicandgymnasticwillbringthemintoaccordnervingandsustainingthereasonwithnoblewordsandlessonsandmoderatingandsoothingandcivilizingthewildnessofpassionbyharmonyandrhythmquitetruehesaidandthesetwothusnurturedandeducatedandhavinglearnedtrulytoknowtheirownfunctionswillruleovertheconcupiscentwhichineachofusisthelargestpartofthesoulandbynaturemostinsatiableofgainoverthistheywillkeepguardlestwaxinggreatandstrongwiththefulnessofbodilypleasuresastheyaretermedtheconcupiscentsoulnolongerconfinedtoherownsphereshouldattempttoenslaveandrulethosewhoarenothernaturalbornsubjectsandoverturnthewholelifeofmanverytruehesaidbothtogetherwilltheynotbethebestdefendersofthewholesoulandthewholebodyagainstattacksfromwithouttheonecounsellingandtheotherfightingunderhisleaderandcourageouslyexecutinghiscommandsandcounselstrueandheistobedeemedcourageouswhosespiritretainsinpleasureandinpainthecommandsofreasonaboutwhatheoughtoroughtnottofearrightherepliedandhimwecallwisewhohasinhimthatlittlepartwhichrulesandwhichproclaimsthesecommandsthatparttoobeingsupposedtohaveaknowledgeofwhatisfortheinterestofeachofthethreepartsandofthewholeassuredlyandwouldyounotsaythatheistemperatewhohasthesesameelementsinfriendlyharmonyinwhomtheonerulingprincipleofreasonandthetwosubjectonesofspiritanddesireareequallyagreedthatreasonoughttoruleanddonotrebelcertainlyhesaidthatisthetrueaccountoftemperancewhetherinthestateorindividualandsurelyisaidwehaveexplainedagainandagainhowandbyvirtueofwhatqualityamanwillbejustthatisverycertainandisjusticedimmerintheindividualandisherformdifferentorisshethesamewhichwefoundhertobeinthestatethereisnodifferenceinmyopinionhesaidbecauseifanydoubtisstilllingeringinourmindsafewcommonplaceinstanceswillsatisfyusofthetruthofwhatiamsayingwhatsortofinstancesdoyoumeanifthecaseisputtousmustwenotadmitthatthejuststateorthemanwhoistrainedintheprinciplesofsuchastatewillbelesslikelythantheunjusttomakeawaywithadepositofgoldorsilverwouldanyonedenythisnooneherepliedwillthejustmanorcitizeneverbeguiltyofsacrilegeortheftortreacheryeithertohisfriendsortohiscountryneverneitherwillheeverbreakfaithwheretherehavebeenoathsoragreementsimpossiblenoonewillbelesslikelytocommitadulteryortodishonourhisfatherandmotherortofailinhisreligiousdutiesnooneandthereasonisthateachpartofhimisdoingitsownbusinesswhetherinrulingorbeingruledexactlysoareyousatisfiedthenthatthequalitywhichmakessuchmenandsuchstatesisjusticeordoyouhopetodiscoversomeothernotiindeedthenourdreamhasbeenrealizedandthesuspicionwhichweentertainedatthebeginningofourworkofconstructionthatsomedivinepowermusthaveconductedustoaprimaryformofjusticehasnowbeenverifiedyescertainlyandthedivisionoflabourwhichrequiredthecarpenterandtheshoemakerandtherestofthecitizenstobedoingeachhisownbusinessandnotanotherswasashadowofjusticeandforthatreasonitwasofuseclearlybutinrealityjusticewassuchasweweredescribingbeingconcernedhowevernotwiththeoutwardmanbutwiththeinwardwhichisthetrueselfandconcernmentofmanforthejustmandoesnotpermittheseveralelementswithinhimtointerferewithoneanotheroranyofthemtodotheworkofothershesetsinorderhisowninnerlifeandishisownmasterandhisownlawandatpeacewithhimselfandwhenhehasboundtogetherthethreeprincipleswithinhimwhichmaybecomparedtothehigherlowerandmiddlenotesofthescaleandtheintermediateintervalswhenhehasboundallthesetogetherandisnolongermanybuthasbecomeoneentirelytemperateandperfectlyadjustednaturethenheproceedstoactifhehastoactwhetherinamatterofpropertyorinthetreatmentofthebodyorinsomeaffairofpoliticsorprivatebusinessalwaysthinkingandcallingthatwhichpreservesandcooperateswiththisharmoniousconditionjustandgoodactionandtheknowledgewhichpresidesoveritwisdomandthatwhichatanytimeimpairsthisconditionhewillcallunjustactionandtheopinionwhichpresidesoveritignoranceyouhavesaidtheexacttruthsocratesverygoodandifweweretoaffirmthatwehaddiscoveredthejustmanandthejuststateandthenatureofjusticeineachofthemweshouldnotbetellingafalsehoodmostcertainlynotmaywesaysothenletussaysoandnowisaidinjusticehastobeconsideredclearlymustnotinjusticebeastrifewhicharisesamongthethreeprinciplesameddlesomenessandinterferenceandrisingupofapartofthesoulagainstthewholeanassertionofunlawfulauthoritywhichismadebyarebellioussubjectagainstatrueprinceofwhomheisthenaturalvassalwhatisallthisconfusionanddelusionbutinjusticeandintemperanceandcowardiceandignoranceandeveryformofviceexactlysoandifthenatureofjusticeandinjusticebeknownthenthemeaningofactingunjustlyandbeingunjustoragainofactingjustlywillalsobeperfectlyclearwhatdoyoumeanhesaidwhyisaidtheyarelikediseaseandhealthbeinginthesouljustwhatdiseaseandhealthareinthebodyhowsohesaidwhyisaidthatwhichishealthycauseshealthandthatwhichisunhealthycausesdiseaseyesandjustactionscausejusticeandunjustactionscauseinjusticethatiscertainandthecreationofhealthistheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthebodyandthecreationofdiseaseistheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththisnaturalordertrueandisnotthecreationofjusticetheinstitutionofanaturalorderandgovernmentofonebyanotherinthepartsofthesoulandthecreationofinjusticetheproductionofastateofthingsatvariancewiththenaturalorderexactlysohesaidthenvirtueisthehealthandbeautyandwellbeingofthesoulandvicethediseaseandweaknessanddeformityofthesametrueanddonotgoodpracticesleadtovirtueandevilpracticestoviceassuredlystillouroldquestionofthecomparativeadvantageofjusticeandinjusticehasnotbeenansweredwhichisthemoreprofitabletobejustandactjustlyandpractisevirtuewhetherseenorunseenofgodsandmenortobeunjustandactunjustlyifonlyunpunishedandunreformedinmyjudgmentsocratesthequestionhasnowbecomeridiculousweknowthatwhenthebodilyconstitutionisgonelifeisnolongerendurablethoughpamperedwithallkindsofmeatsanddrinksandhavingallwealthandallpowerandshallwebetoldthatwhentheveryessenceofthevitalprincipleisunderminedandcorruptedlifeisstillworthhavingtoamanifonlyhebeallowedtodowhateverhelikeswiththesingleexceptionthatheisnottoacquirejusticeandvirtueortoescapefrominjusticeandviceassumingthembothtobesuchaswehavedescribedyesisaidthequestionisasyousayridiculousstillaswearenearthespotatwhichwemayseethetruthintheclearestmannerwithourowneyesletusnotfaintbythewaycertainlynotherepliedcomeuphitherisaidandbeholdthevariousformsofvicethoseofthemimeanwhichareworthlookingatiamfollowingyouherepliedproceedisaidtheargumentseemstohavereachedaheightfromwhichasfromsometowerofspeculationamanmaylookdownandseethatvirtueisonebutthattheformsofviceareinnumerabletherebeingfourspecialoneswhicharedeservingofnotewhatdoyoumeanhesaidimeanirepliedthatthereappeartobeasmanyformsofthesoulastherearedistinctformsofthestatehowmanytherearefiveofthestateandfiveofthesoulisaidwhataretheythefirstisaidisthatwhichwehavebeendescribingandwhichmaybesaidtohavetwonamesmonarchyandaristocracyaccordinglyasruleisexercisedbyonedistinguishedmanorbymanytrueherepliedbutiregardthetwonamesasdescribingoneformonlyforwhetherthegovernmentisinthehandsofoneormanyifthegovernorshavebeentrainedinthemannerwhichwehavesupposedthefundamentallawsofthestatewillbemaintainedthatistrueherepliedbookvsuchisthegoodandtruecityorstateandthegoodandtruemanisofthesamepatternandifthisisrighteveryotheriswrongandtheevilisonewhichaffectsnotonlytheorderingofthestatebutalsotheregulationoftheindividualsoulandisexhibitedinfourformswhataretheyhesaidiwasproceedingtotelltheorderinwhichthefourevilformsappearedtometosucceedoneanotherwhenpolemarchuswhowassittingalittlewayoffjustbeyondadeimantusbegantowhispertohimstretchingforthhishandhetookholdoftheupperpartofhiscoatbytheshoulderanddrewhimtowardshimleaningforwardhimselfsoastobequitecloseandsayingsomethinginhisearofwhichionlycaughtthewordsshallwelethimofforwhatshallwedocertainlynotsaidadeimantusraisinghisvoicewhoisitisaidwhomyouarerefusingtoletoffyouhesaidirepeatedwhyamiespeciallynottobeletoffwhyhesaidwethinkthatyouarelazyandmeantocheatusoutofawholechapterwhichisaveryimportantpartofthestoryandyoufancythatweshallnotnoticeyourairywayofproceedingasifitwereselfevidenttoeverybodythatinthematterofwomenandchildrenfriendshaveallthingsincommonandwasinotrightadeimantusyeshesaidbutwhatisrightinthisparticularcaselikeeverythingelserequirestobeexplainedforcommunitymaybeofmanykindspleasethereforetosaywhatsortofcommunityyoumeanwehavebeenlongexpectingthatyouwouldtellussomethingaboutthefamilylifeofyourcitizenshowtheywillbringchildrenintotheworldandrearthemwhentheyhavearrivedandingeneralwhatisthenatureofthiscommunityofwomenandchildrenforweareofopinionthattherightorwrongmanagementofsuchmatterswillhaveagreatandparamountinfluenceonthestateforgoodorforevilandnowsincethequestionisstillundeterminedandyouaretakinginhandanotherstatewehaveresolvedasyouheardnottoletyougountilyougiveanaccountofallthistothatresolutionsaidglauconyoumayregardmeassayingagreedandwithoutmoreadosaidthrasymachusyoumayconsiderusalltobeequallyagreedisaidyouknownotwhatyouaredoinginthusassailingmewhatanargumentareyouraisingaboutthestatejustasithoughtthatihadfinishedandwasonlytoogladthatihadlaidthisquestiontosleepandwasreflectinghowfortunateiwasinyouracceptanceofwhatithensaidyouaskmetobeginagainattheveryfoundationignorantofwhatahornetsnestofwordsyouarestirringnowiforesawthisgatheringtroubleandavoideditforwhatpurposedoyouconceivethatwehavecomeheresaidthrasymachustolookforgoldortoheardiscourseyesbutdiscourseshouldhavealimityessocratessaidglauconandthewholeoflifeistheonlylimitwhichwisemenassigntothehearingofsuchdiscoursesbutnevermindaboutustakeheartyourselfandanswerthequestioninyourownwaywhatsortofcommunityofwomenandchildrenisthiswhichistoprevailamongourguardiansandhowshallwemanagetheperiodbetweenbirthandeducationwhichseemstorequirethegreatestcaretellushowthesethingswillbeyesmysimplefriendbuttheansweristhereverseofeasymanymoredoubtsariseaboutthisthanaboutourpreviousconclusionsforthepracticabilityofwhatissaidmaybedoubtedandlookedatinanotherpointofviewwhethertheschemeifeversopracticablewouldbeforthebestisalsodoubtfulhenceifeelareluctancetoapproachthesubjectlestouraspirationmydearfriendshouldturnouttobeadreamonlyfearnotherepliedforyouraudiencewillnotbeharduponyoutheyarenotscepticalorhostileisaidmygoodfriendisupposethatyoumeantoencouragemebythesewordsyeshesaidthenletmetellyouthatyouaredoingjustthereversetheencouragementwhichyouofferwouldhavebeenallverywellhadimyselfbelievedthatiknewwhatiwastalkingabouttodeclarethetruthaboutmattersofhighinterestwhichamanhonoursandlovesamongwisemenwholovehimneedoccasionnofearorfalteringinhismindbuttocarryonanargumentwhenyouareyourselfonlyahesitatingenquirerwhichismyconditionisadangerousandslipperythingandthedangerisnotthatishallbelaughedatofwhichthefearwouldbechildishbutthatishallmissthetruthwhereihavemostneedtobesureofmyfootinganddragmyfriendsaftermeinmyfallandipraynemesisnottovisituponmethewordswhichiamgoingtoutterforidoindeedbelievethattobeaninvoluntaryhomicideisalesscrimethantobeadeceiveraboutbeautyorgoodnessorjusticeinthematteroflawsandthatisariskwhichiwouldratherrunamongenemiesthanamongfriendsandthereforeyoudowelltoencouragemeglauconlaughedandsaidwellthensocratesincaseyouandyourargumentdousanyseriousinjuryyoushallbeacquittedbeforehandofthehomicideandshallnotbeheldtobeadeceivertakecouragethenandspeakwellisaidthelawsaysthatwhenamanisacquittedheisfreefromguiltandwhatholdsatlawmayholdinargumentthenwhyshouldyoumindwellirepliedisupposethatimustretracemystepsandsaywhatiperhapsoughttohavesaidbeforeintheproperplacethepartofthemenhasbeenplayedoutandnowproperlyenoughcomestheturnofthewomenofthemiwillproceedtospeakandthemorereadilysinceiaminvitedbyyouformenbornandeducatedlikeourcitizenstheonlywayinmyopinionofarrivingatarightconclusionaboutthepossessionanduseofwomenandchildrenistofollowthepathonwhichweoriginallystartedwhenwesaidthatthemenweretobetheguardiansandwatchdogsoftheherdtrueletusfurthersupposethebirthandeducationofourwomentobesubjecttosimilarornearlysimilarregulationsthenweshallseewhethertheresultaccordswithourdesignwhatdoyoumeanwhatimeanmaybeputintotheformofaquestionisaidaredogsdividedintohesandshesordotheybothshareequallyinhuntingandinkeepingwatchandintheotherdutiesofdogsordoweentrusttothemalestheentireandexclusivecareoftheflockswhileweleavethefemalesathomeundertheideathatthebearingandsucklingtheirpuppiesislabourenoughforthemnohesaidtheysharealiketheonlydifferencebetweenthemisthatthemalesarestrongerandthefemalesweakerbutcanyouusedifferentanimalsforthesamepurposeunlesstheyarebredandfedinthesamewayyoucannotthenifwomenaretohavethesamedutiesasmentheymusthavethesamenurtureandeducationyestheeducationwhichwasassignedtothemenwasmusicandgymnasticyesthenwomenmustbetaughtmusicandgymnasticandalsotheartofwarwhichtheymustpractiselikethementhatistheinferenceisupposeishouldratherexpectisaidthatseveralofourproposalsiftheyarecarriedoutbeingunusualmayappearridiculousnodoubtofityesandthemostridiculousthingofallwillbethesightofwomennakedinthepalaestraexercisingwiththemenespeciallywhentheyarenolongeryoungtheycertainlywillnotbeavisionofbeautyanymorethantheenthusiasticoldmenwhoinspiteofwrinklesanduglinesscontinuetofrequentthegymnasiayesindeedhesaidaccordingtopresentnotionstheproposalwouldbethoughtridiculousbutthenisaidaswehavedeterminedtospeakourmindswemustnotfearthejestsofthewitswhichwillbedirectedagainstthissortofinnovationhowtheywilltalkofwomensattainmentsbothinmusicandgymnasticandaboveallabouttheirwearingarmourandridinguponhorsebackverytrueherepliedyethavingbegunwemustgoforwardtotheroughplacesofthelawatthesametimebeggingofthesegentlemenforonceintheirlifetobeseriousnotlongagoasweshallremindthemthehelleneswereoftheopinionwhichisstillgenerallyreceivedamongthebarbariansthatthesightofanakedmanwasridiculousandimproperandwhenfirstthecretansandthenthelacedaemoniansintroducedthecustomthewitsofthatdaymightequallyhaveridiculedtheinnovationnodoubtbutwhenexperienceshowedthattoletallthingsbeuncoveredwasfarbetterthantocoverthemupandtheludicrouseffecttotheoutwardeyevanishedbeforethebetterprinciplewhichreasonassertedthenthemanwasperceivedtobeafoolwhodirectstheshaftsofhisridiculeatanyothersightbutthatoffollyandviceorseriouslyinclinestoweighthebeautifulbyanyotherstandardbutthatofthegoodverytrueherepliedfirstthenwhetherthequestionistobeputinjestorinearnestletuscometoanunderstandingaboutthenatureofwomanisshecapableofsharingeitherwhollyorpartiallyintheactionsofmenornotatallandistheartofwaroneofthoseartsinwhichshecanorcannotsharethatwillbethebestwayofcommencingtheenquiryandwillprobablyleadtothefairestconclusionthatwillbemuchthebestwayshallwetaketheothersidefirstandbeginbyarguingagainstourselvesinthismannertheadversaryspositionwillnotbeundefendedwhynothesaidthenletusputaspeechintothemouthsofouropponentstheywillsaysocratesandglauconnoadversaryneedconvictyouforyouyourselvesatthefirstfoundationofthestateadmittedtheprinciplethateverybodywastodotheoneworksuitedtohisownnatureandcertainlyifiamnotmistakensuchanadmissionwasmadebyusanddonotthenaturesofmenandwomendifferverymuchindeedandweshallreplyofcoursetheydothenweshallbeaskedwhetherthetasksassignedtomenandtowomenshouldnotbedifferentandsuchasareagreeabletotheirdifferentnaturescertainlytheyshouldbutifsohaveyounotfallenintoaseriousinconsistencyinsayingthatmenandwomenwhosenaturesaresoentirelydifferentoughttoperformthesameactionswhatdefencewillyoumakeforusmygoodsiragainstanyonewhoofferstheseobjectionsthatisnotaneasyquestiontoanswerwhenaskedsuddenlyandishallandidobegofyoutodrawoutthecaseonoursidethesearetheobjectionsglauconandtherearemanyothersofalikekindwhichiforesawlongagotheymademeafraidandreluctanttotakeinhandanylawaboutthepossessionandnurtureofwomenandchildrenbyzeushesaidtheproblemtobesolvedisanythingbuteasywhyyesisaidbutthefactisthatwhenamanisoutofhisdepthwhetherhehasfallenintoalittleswimmingbathorintomidoceanhehastoswimallthesameverytrueandmustnotweswimandtrytoreachtheshorewewillhopethatarionsdolphinorsomeothermiraculoushelpmaysaveusisupposesohesaidwellthenletusseeifanywayofescapecanbefoundweacknowledgeddidwenotthatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuitsandthatmensandwomensnaturesaredifferentandnowwhatarewesayingthatdifferentnaturesoughttohavethesamepursuitsthisistheinconsistencywhichischargeduponuspreciselyverilyglauconisaidgloriousisthepoweroftheartofcontradictionwhydoyousaysobecauseithinkthatmanyamanfallsintothepracticeagainsthiswillwhenhethinksthatheisreasoningheisreallydisputingjustbecausehecannotdefineanddivideandsoknowthatofwhichheisspeakingandhewillpursueamerelyverbaloppositioninthespiritofcontentionandnotoffairdiscussionyesherepliedsuchisveryoftenthecasebutwhathasthattodowithusandourargumentagreatdealforthereiscertainlyadangerofourgettingunintentionallyintoaverbaloppositioninwhatwaywhywevaliantlyandpugnaciouslyinsistupontheverbaltruththatdifferentnaturesoughttohavedifferentpursuitsbutweneverconsideredatallwhatwasthemeaningofsamenessordifferenceofnatureorwhywedistinguishedthemwhenweassigneddifferentpursuitstodifferentnaturesandthesametothesamenatureswhynohesaidthatwasneverconsideredbyusisaidsupposethatbywayofillustrationweweretoaskthequestionwhetherthereisnotanoppositioninnaturebetweenbaldmenandhairymenandifthisisadmittedbyusthenifbaldmenarecobblersweshouldforbidthehairymentobecobblersandconverselythatwouldbeajesthesaidyesisaidajestandwhybecausewenevermeantwhenweconstructedthestatethattheoppositionofnaturesshouldextendtoeverydifferencebutonlytothosedifferenceswhichaffectedthepursuitinwhichtheindividualisengagedweshouldhavearguedforexamplethataphysicianandonewhoisinmindaphysicianmaybesaidtohavethesamenaturetruewhereasthephysicianandthecarpenterhavedifferentnaturescertainlyandifisaidthemaleandfemalesexappeartodifferintheirfitnessforanyartorpursuitweshouldsaythatsuchpursuitorartoughttobeassignedtooneortheotherofthembutifthedifferenceconsistsonlyinwomenbearingandmenbegettingchildrenthisdoesnotamounttoaproofthatawomandiffersfromamaninrespectofthesortofeducationsheshouldreceiveandweshallthereforecontinuetomaintainthatourguardiansandtheirwivesoughttohavethesamepursuitsverytruehesaidnextweshallaskouropponenthowinreferencetoanyofthepursuitsorartsofciviclifethenatureofawomandiffersfromthatofamanthatwillbequitefairandperhapshelikeyourselfwillreplythattogiveasufficientanswerontheinstantisnoteasybutafteralittlereflectionthereisnodifficultyyesperhapssupposethenthatweinvitehimtoaccompanyusintheargumentandthenwemayhopetoshowhimthatthereisnothingpeculiarintheconstitutionofwomenwhichwouldaffectthemintheadministrationofthestatebyallmeansletussaytohimcomenowandwewillaskyouaquestionwhenyouspokeofanaturegiftedornotgiftedinanyrespectdidyoumeantosaythatonemanwillacquireathingeasilyanotherwithdifficultyalittlelearningwillleadtheonetodiscoveragreatdealwhereastheotheraftermuchstudyandapplicationnosoonerlearnsthanheforgetsoragaindidyoumeanthattheonehasabodywhichisagoodservanttohismindwhilethebodyoftheotherisahindrancetohimwouldnotthesebethesortofdifferenceswhichdistinguishthemangiftedbynaturefromtheonewhoisungiftednoonewilldenythatandcanyoumentionanypursuitofmankindinwhichthemalesexhasnotallthesegiftsandqualitiesinahigherdegreethanthefemaleneediwastetimeinspeakingoftheartofweavingandthemanagementofpancakesandpreservesinwhichwomankinddoesreallyappeartobegreatandinwhichforhertobebeatenbyamanisofallthingsthemostabsurdyouarequiterightherepliedinmaintainingthegeneralinferiorityofthefemalesexalthoughmanywomenareinmanythingssuperiortomanymenyetonthewholewhatyousayistrueandifsomyfriendisaidthereisnospecialfacultyofadministrationinastatewhichawomanhasbecausesheisawomanorwhichamanhasbyvirtueofhissexbutthegiftsofnaturearealikediffusedinbothallthepursuitsofmenarethepursuitsofwomenalsobutinallofthemawomanisinferiortoamanverytruethenarewetoimposeallourenactmentsonmenandnoneofthemonwomenthatwillneverdoonewomanhasagiftofhealinganothernotoneisamusicianandanotherhasnomusicinhernatureverytrueandonewomanhasaturnforgymnasticandmilitaryexercisesandanotherisunwarlikeandhatesgymnasticscertainlyandonewomanisaphilosopherandanotherisanenemyofphilosophyonehasspiritandanotheriswithoutspiritthatisalsotruethenonewomanwillhavethetemperofaguardianandanothernotwasnottheselectionofthemaleguardiansdeterminedbydifferencesofthissortyesmenandwomenalikepossessthequalitieswhichmakeaguardiantheydifferonlyintheircomparativestrengthorweaknessobviouslyandthosewomenwhohavesuchqualitiesaretobeselectedasthecompanionsandcolleaguesofmenwhohavesimilarqualitiesandwhomtheyresembleincapacityandincharacterverytrueandoughtnotthesamenaturestohavethesamepursuitstheyoughtthenasweweresayingbeforethereisnothingunnaturalinassigningmusicandgymnastictothewivesoftheguardianstothatpointwecomeroundagaincertainlynotthelawwhichwethenenactedwasagreeabletonatureandthereforenotanimpossibilityormereaspirationandthecontrarypracticewhichprevailsatpresentisinrealityaviolationofnaturethatappearstobetruewehadtoconsiderfirstwhetherourproposalswerepossibleandsecondlywhethertheywerethemostbeneficialyesandthepossibilityhasbeenacknowledgedyestheverygreatbenefithasnexttobeestablishedquitesoyouwilladmitthatthesameeducationwhichmakesamanagoodguardianwillmakeawomanagoodguardianfortheiroriginalnatureisthesameyesishouldliketoaskyouaquestionwhatisitwouldyousaythatallmenareequalinexcellenceorisonemanbetterthananotherthelatterandinthecommonwealthwhichwewerefoundingdoyouconceivetheguardianswhohavebeenbroughtuponourmodelsystemtobemoreperfectmenorthecobblerswhoseeducationhasbeencobblingwhataridiculousquestionyouhaveansweredmeirepliedwellandmaywenotfurthersaythatourguardiansarethebestofourcitizensbyfarthebestandwillnottheirwivesbethebestwomenyesbyfarthebestandcantherebeanythingbetterfortheinterestsofthestatethanthatthemenandwomenofastateshouldbeasgoodaspossibletherecanbenothingbetterandthisiswhattheartsofmusicandgymnasticwhenpresentinsuchmanneraswehavedescribedwillaccomplishcertainlythenwehavemadeanenactmentnotonlypossiblebutinthehighestdegreebeneficialtothestatetruethenletthewivesofourguardiansstripfortheirvirtuewillbetheirrobeandletthemshareinthetoilsofwarandthedefenceoftheircountryonlyinthedistributionoflaboursthelighteraretobeassignedtothewomenwhoaretheweakernaturesbutinotherrespectstheirdutiesaretobethesameandasforthemanwholaughsatnakedwomenexercisingtheirbodiesfromthebestofmotivesinhislaughterheispluckingafruitofunripewisdomandhehimselfisignorantofwhatheislaughingatorwhatheisaboutforthatisandeverwillbethebestofsayingsthattheusefulisthenobleandthehurtfulisthebaseverytrueherethenisonedifficultyinourlawaboutwomenwhichwemaysaythatwehavenowescapedthewavehasnotswallowedusupaliveforenactingthattheguardiansofeithersexshouldhavealltheirpursuitsincommontotheutilityandalsotothepossibilityofthisarrangementtheconsistencyoftheargumentwithitselfbearswitnessyesthatwasamightywavewhichyouhaveescapedyesisaidbutagreateriscomingyouwillnotthinkmuchofthiswhenyouseethenextgoonletmeseethelawisaidwhichisthesequelofthisandofallthathasprecededistothefollowingeffectthatthewivesofourguardiansaretobecommonandtheirchildrenaretobecommonandnoparentistoknowhisownchildnoranychildhisparentyeshesaidthatisamuchgreaterwavethantheotherandthepossibilityaswellastheutilityofsuchalawarefarmorequestionableidonotthinkisaidthattherecanbeanydisputeabouttheverygreatutilityofhavingwivesandchildrenincommonthepossibilityisquiteanothermatterandwillbeverymuchdisputedithinkthatagoodmanydoubtsmayberaisedaboutbothyouimplythatthetwoquestionsmustbecombinedirepliednowimeantthatyoushouldadmittheutilityandinthiswayasithoughtishouldescapefromoneofthemandthentherewouldremainonlythepossibilitybutthatlittleattemptisdetectedandthereforeyouwillpleasetogiveadefenceofbothwellisaidisubmittomyfateyetgrantmealittlefavourletmefeastmymindwiththedreamasdaydreamersareinthehabitoffeastingthemselveswhentheyarewalkingaloneforbeforetheyhavediscoveredanymeansofeffectingtheirwishesthatisamatterwhichnevertroublesthemtheywouldrathernottirethemselvesbythinkingaboutpossibilitiesbutassumingthatwhattheydesireisalreadygrantedtothemtheyproceedwiththeirplananddelightindetailingwhattheymeantodowhentheirwishhascometruethatisawaywhichtheyhaveofnotdoingmuchgoodtoacapacitywhichwasnevergoodformuchnowimyselfambeginningtoloseheartandishouldlikewithyourpermissiontopassoverthequestionofpossibilityatpresentassumingthereforethepossibilityoftheproposalishallnowproceedtoenquirehowtherulerswillcarryoutthesearrangementsandishalldemonstratethatourplanifexecutedwillbeofthegreatestbenefittothestateandtotheguardiansfirstofallthenifyouhavenoobjectioniwillendeavourwithyourhelptoconsidertheadvantagesofthemeasureandhereafterthequestionofpossibilityihavenoobjectionproceedfirstithinkthatifourrulersandtheirauxiliariesaretobeworthyofthenamewhichtheybeartheremustbewillingnesstoobeyintheoneandthepowerofcommandintheothertheguardiansmustthemselvesobeythelawsandtheymustalsoimitatethespiritoftheminanydetailswhichareentrustedtotheircarethatisrighthesaidyouisaidwhoaretheirlegislatorhavingselectedthemenwillnowselectthewomenandgivethemtothemtheymustbeasfaraspossibleoflikenatureswiththemandtheymustliveincommonhousesandmeetatcommonmealsnoneofthemwillhaveanythingspeciallyhisorherowntheywillbetogetherandwillbebroughtuptogetherandwillassociateatgymnasticexercisesandsotheywillbedrawnbyanecessityoftheirnaturestohaveintercoursewitheachothernecessityisnottoostrongawordithinkyeshesaidnecessitynotgeometricalbutanothersortofnecessitywhichloversknowandwhichisfarmoreconvincingandconstrainingtothemassofmankindtrueisaidandthisglauconlikealltherestmustproceedafteranorderlyfashioninacityoftheblessedlicentiousnessisanunholythingwhichtherulerswillforbidyeshesaidanditoughtnottobepermittedthenclearlythenextthingwillbetomakematrimonysacredinthehighestdegreeandwhatismostbeneficialwillbedeemedsacredexactlyandhowcanmarriagesbemademostbeneficialthatisaquestionwhichiputtoyoubecauseiseeinyourhousedogsforhuntingandofthenoblersortofbirdsnotafewnowibeseechyoudotellmehaveyoueverattendedtotheirpairingandbreedinginwhatparticularswhyinthefirstplacealthoughtheyareallofagoodsortarenotsomebetterthanotherstrueanddoyoubreedfromthemallindifferentlyordoyoutakecaretobreedfromthebestonlyfromthebestanddoyoutaketheoldestortheyoungestoronlythoseofripeageichooseonlythoseofripeageandifcarewasnottakeninthebreedingyourdogsandbirdswouldgreatlydeterioratecertainlyandthesameofhorsesandanimalsingeneralundoubtedlygoodheavensmydearfriendisaidwhatconsummateskillwillourrulersneedifthesameprincipleholdsofthehumanspeciescertainlythesameprincipleholdsbutwhydoesthisinvolveanyparticularskillbecauseisaidourrulerswilloftenhavetopractiseuponthebodycorporatewithmedicinesnowyouknowthatwhenpatientsdonotrequiremedicinesbuthaveonlytobeputunderaregimentheinferiorsortofpractitionerisdeemedtobegoodenoughbutwhenmedicinehastobegiventhenthedoctorshouldbemoreofamanthatisquitetruehesaidbuttowhatareyoualludingimeanirepliedthatourrulerswillfindaconsiderabledoseoffalsehoodanddeceitnecessaryforthegoodoftheirsubjectsweweresayingthattheuseofallthesethingsregardedasmedicinesmightbeofadvantageandwewereveryrightandthislawfuluseofthemseemslikelytobeoftenneededintheregulationsofmarriagesandbirthshowsowhyisaidtheprinciplehasbeenalreadylaiddownthatthebestofeithersexshouldbeunitedwiththebestasoftenandtheinferiorwiththeinferiorasseldomaspossibleandthattheyshouldreartheoffspringoftheonesortofunionbutnotoftheotheriftheflockistobemaintainedinfirstrateconditionnowthesegoingsonmustbeasecretwhichtherulersonlyknowortherewillbeafurtherdangerofourherdastheguardiansmaybetermedbreakingoutintorebellionverytruehadwenotbetterappointcertainfestivalsatwhichwewillbringtogetherthebridesandbridegroomsandsacrificeswillbeofferedandsuitablehymenealsongscomposedbyourpoetsthenumberofweddingsisamatterwhichmustbelefttothediscretionoftherulerswhoseaimwillbetopreservetheaverageofpopulationtherearemanyotherthingswhichtheywillhavetoconsidersuchastheeffectsofwarsanddiseasesandanysimilaragenciesinorderasfarasthisispossibletopreventthestatefrombecomingeithertoolargeortoosmallcertainlyherepliedweshallhavetoinventsomeingeniouskindoflotswhichthelessworthymaydrawoneachoccasionofourbringingthemtogetherandthentheywillaccusetheirownillluckandnottherulerstobesurehesaidandithinkthatourbraverandbetteryouthbesidestheirotherhonoursandrewardsmighthavegreaterfacilitiesofintercoursewithwomengiventhemtheirbraverywillbeareasonandsuchfathersoughttohaveasmanysonsaspossibletrueandtheproperofficerswhethermaleorfemaleorbothforofficesaretobeheldbywomenaswellasbymenyestheproperofficerswilltaketheoffspringofthegoodparentstothepenorfoldandtheretheywilldepositthemwithcertainnurseswhodwellinaseparatequarterbuttheoffspringoftheinferiororofthebetterwhentheychancetobedeformedwillbeputawayinsomemysteriousunknownplaceastheyshouldbeyeshesaidthatmustbedoneifthebreedoftheguardiansistobekeptpuretheywillprovidefortheirnurtureandwillbringthemotherstothefoldwhentheyarefullofmilktakingthegreatestpossiblecarethatnomotherrecognisesherownchildandotherwetnursesmaybeengagedifmorearerequiredcarewillalsobetakenthattheprocessofsucklingshallnotbeprotractedtoolongandthemotherswillhavenogettingupatnightorothertroublebutwillhandoverallthissortofthingtothenursesandattendantsyousupposethewivesofourguardianstohaveafineeasytimeofitwhentheyarehavingchildrenwhysaidiandsotheyoughtletushoweverproceedwithourschemeweweresayingthattheparentsshouldbeintheprimeoflifeverytrueandwhatistheprimeoflifemayitnotbedefinedasaperiodofabouttwentyyearsinawomanslifeandthirtyinamanswhichyearsdoyoumeantoincludeawomanisaidattwentyyearsofagemaybegintobearchildrentothestateandcontinuetobearthemuntilfortyamanmaybeginatfiveandtwentywhenhehaspassedthepointatwhichthepulseoflifebeatsquickestandcontinuetobegetchildrenuntilhebefiftyfivecertainlyhesaidbothinmenandwomenthoseyearsaretheprimeofphysicalaswellasofintellectualvigouranyoneaboveorbelowtheprescribedageswhotakespartinthepublichymenealsshallbesaidtohavedoneanunholyandunrighteousthingthechildofwhichheisthefatherifitstealsintolifewillhavebeenconceivedunderauspicesveryunlikethesacrificesandprayerswhichateachhymenealpriestessesandpriestandthewholecitywillofferthatthenewgenerationmaybebetterandmoreusefulthantheirgoodandusefulparentswhereashischildwillbetheoffspringofdarknessandstrangelustverytrueherepliedandthesamelawwillapplytoanyoneofthosewithintheprescribedagewhoformsaconnectionwithanywomanintheprimeoflifewithoutthesanctionoftherulersforweshallsaythatheisraisingupabastardtothestateuncertifiedandunconsecratedverytrueherepliedthisapplieshoweveronlytothosewhoarewithinthespecifiedageafterthatweallowthemtorangeatwillexceptthatamanmaynotmarryhisdaughterorhisdaughtersdaughterorhismotherorhismothersmotherandwomenontheotherhandareprohibitedfrommarryingtheirsonsorfathersorsonssonorfathersfatherandsoonineitherdirectionandwegrantallthisaccompanyingthepermissionwithstrictorderstopreventanyembryowhichmaycomeintobeingfromseeingthelightandifanyforceawaytothebirththeparentsmustunderstandthattheoffspringofsuchanunioncannotbemaintainedandarrangeaccordinglythatalsohesaidisareasonablepropositionbuthowwilltheyknowwhoarefathersanddaughtersandsoontheywillneverknowthewaywillbethisdatingfromthedayofthehymenealthebridegroomwhowasthenmarriedwillcallallthemalechildrenwhoarebornintheseventhandtenthmonthafterwardshissonsandthefemalechildrenhisdaughtersandtheywillcallhimfatherandhewillcalltheirchildrenhisgrandchildrenandtheywillcalltheeldergenerationgrandfathersandgrandmothersallwhowerebegottenatthetimewhentheirfathersandmotherscametogetherwillbecalledtheirbrothersandsistersandtheseasiwassayingwillbeforbiddentointermarrythishoweverisnottobeunderstoodasanabsoluteprohibitionofthemarriageofbrothersandsistersifthelotfavoursthemandtheyreceivethesanctionofthepythianoraclethelawwillallowthemquiterightherepliedsuchistheschemeglauconaccordingtowhichtheguardiansofourstatearetohavetheirwivesandfamiliesincommonandnowyouwouldhavetheargumentshowthatthiscommunityisconsistentwiththerestofourpolityandalsothatnothingcanbebetterwouldyounotyescertainlyshallwetrytofindacommonbasisbyaskingofourselveswhatoughttobethechiefaimofthelegislatorinmakinglawsandintheorganizationofastatewhatisthegreatestgoodandwhatisthegreatestevilandthenconsiderwhetherourpreviousdescriptionhasthestampofthegoodoroftheevilbyallmeanscantherebeanygreaterevilthandiscordanddistractionandpluralitywhereunityoughttoreignoranygreatergoodthanthebondofunitytherecannotandthereisunitywherethereiscommunityofpleasuresandpainswhereallthecitizensaregladorgrievedonthesameoccasionsofjoyandsorrownodoubtyesandwherethereisnocommonbutonlyprivatefeelingastateisdisorganizedwhenyouhaveonehalfoftheworldtriumphingandtheotherplungedingriefatthesameeventshappeningtothecityorthecitizenscertainlysuchdifferencescommonlyoriginateinadisagreementabouttheuseofthetermsmineandnotminehisandnothisexactlysoandisnotthatthebestorderedstateinwhichthegreatestnumberofpersonsapplythetermsmineandnotmineinthesamewaytothesamethingquitetrueorthatagainwhichmostnearlyapproachestotheconditionoftheindividualasinthebodywhenbutafingerofoneofusishurtthewholeframedrawntowardsthesoulasacentreandformingonekingdomundertherulingpowerthereinfeelsthehurtandsympathizesalltogetherwiththepartaffectedandwesaythatthemanhasapaininhisfingerandthesameexpressionisusedaboutanyotherpartofthebodywhichhasasensationofpainatsufferingorofpleasureatthealleviationofsufferingverytrueherepliedandiagreewithyouthatinthebestorderedstatethereisthenearestapproachtothiscommonfeelingwhichyoudescribethenwhenanyoneofthecitizensexperiencesanygoodorevilthewholestatewillmakehiscasetheirownandwilleitherrejoiceorsorrowwithhimyeshesaidthatiswhatwillhappeninawellorderedstateitwillnowbetimeisaidforustoreturntoourstateandseewhetherthisorsomeotherformismostinaccordancewiththesefundamentalprinciplesverygoodourstatelikeeveryotherhasrulersandsubjectstrueallofwhomwillcalloneanothercitizensofcoursebutistherenotanothernamewhichpeoplegivetotheirrulersinotherstatesgenerallytheycallthemmastersbutindemocraticstatestheysimplycallthemrulersandinourstatewhatothernamebesidesthatofcitizensdothepeoplegivetherulerstheyarecalledsavioursandhelpersherepliedandwhatdotherulerscallthepeopletheirmaintainersandfosterfathersandwhatdotheycalltheminotherstatesslavesandwhatdotherulerscalloneanotherinotherstatesfellowrulersandwhatinoursfellowguardiansdidyoueverknowanexampleinanyotherstateofarulerwhowouldspeakofoneofhiscolleaguesashisfriendandofanotherasnotbeinghisfriendyesveryoftenandthefriendheregardsanddescribesasoneinwhomhehasaninterestandtheotherasastrangerinwhomhehasnointerestexactlybutwouldanyofyourguardiansthinkorspeakofanyotherguardianasastrangercertainlyhewouldnotforeveryonewhomtheymeetwillberegardedbythemeitherasabrotherorsisterorfatherormotherorsonordaughterorasthechildorparentofthosewhoarethusconnectedwithhimcapitalisaidbutletmeaskyouoncemoreshalltheybeafamilyinnameonlyorshalltheyinalltheiractionsbetruetothenameforexampleintheuseofthewordfatherwouldthecareofafatherbeimpliedandthefilialreverenceanddutyandobediencetohimwhichthelawcommandsandistheviolatorofthesedutiestoberegardedasanimpiousandunrighteouspersonwhoisnotlikelytoreceivemuchgoodeitheratthehandsofgodorofmanarethesetobeornottobethestrainswhichthechildrenwillhearrepeatedintheirearsbyallthecitizensaboutthosewhoareintimatedtothemtobetheirparentsandtherestoftheirkinsfolkthesehesaidandnoneotherforwhatcanbemoreridiculousthanforthemtoutterthenamesoffamilytieswiththelipsonlyandnottoactinthespiritofthemtheninourcitythelanguageofharmonyandconcordwillbemoreoftenheardthaninanyotherasiwasdescribingbeforewhenanyoneiswellorilltheuniversalwordwillbewithmeitiswelloritisillmosttrueandagreeablytothismodeofthinkingandspeakingwerewenotsayingthattheywillhavetheirpleasuresandpainsincommonyesandsotheywillandtheywillhaveacommoninterestinthesamethingwhichtheywillalikecallmyownandhavingthiscommoninteresttheywillhaveacommonfeelingofpleasureandpainyesfarmoresothaninotherstatesandthereasonofthisoverandabovethegeneralconstitutionofthestatewillbethattheguardianswillhaveacommunityofwomenandchildrenthatwillbethechiefreasonandthisunityoffeelingweadmittedtobethegreatestgoodaswasimpliedinourowncomparisonofawellorderedstatetotherelationofthebodyandthememberswhenaffectedbypleasureorpainthatweacknowledgedandveryrightlythenthecommunityofwivesandchildrenamongourcitizensisclearlythesourceofthegreatestgoodtothestatecertainlyandthisagreeswiththeotherprinciplewhichwewereaffirmingthattheguardianswerenottohavehousesorlandsoranyotherpropertytheirpaywastobetheirfoodwhichtheyweretoreceivefromtheothercitizensandtheyweretohavenoprivateexpensesforweintendedthemtopreservetheirtruecharacterofguardiansrightherepliedboththecommunityofpropertyandthecommunityoffamiliesasiamsayingtendtomakethemmoretrulyguardianstheywillnottearthecityinpiecesbydifferingaboutmineandnotmineeachmandragginganyacquisitionwhichhehasmadeintoaseparatehouseofhisownwherehehasaseparatewifeandchildrenandprivatepleasuresandpainsbutallwillbeaffectedasfarasmaybebythesamepleasuresandpainsbecausetheyareallofoneopinionaboutwhatisnearanddeartothemandthereforetheyalltendtowardsacommonendcertainlyherepliedandastheyhavenothingbuttheirpersonswhichtheycancalltheirownsuitsandcomplaintswillhavenoexistenceamongthemtheywillbedeliveredfromallthosequarrelsofwhichmoneyorchildrenorrelationsaretheoccasionofcoursetheywillneitherwilltrialsforassaultorinsulteverbelikelytooccuramongthemforthatequalsshoulddefendthemselvesagainstequalsweshallmaintaintobehonourableandrightweshallmaketheprotectionofthepersonamatterofnecessitythatisgoodhesaidyesandthereisafurthergoodinthelawvizthatifamanhasaquarrelwithanotherhewillsatisfyhisresentmentthenandthereandnotproceedtomoredangerouslengthscertainlytotheeldershallbeassignedthedutyofrulingandchastisingtheyoungerclearlynorcantherebeadoubtthattheyoungerwillnotstrikeordoanyotherviolencetoanelderunlessthemagistratescommandhimnorwillheslighthiminanywayfortherearetwoguardiansshameandfearmightytopreventhimshamewhichmakesmenrefrainfromlayinghandsonthosewhoaretothemintherelationofparentsfearthattheinjuredonewillbesuccouredbytheotherswhoarehisbrotherssonsfathersthatistrueherepliedthenineverywaythelawswillhelpthecitizenstokeepthepeacewithoneanotheryestherewillbenowantofpeaceandastheguardianswillneverquarrelamongthemselvestherewillbenodangeroftherestofthecitybeingdividedeitheragainstthemoragainstoneanothernonewhateverihardlylikeeventomentionthelittlemeannessesofwhichtheywillberidfortheyarebeneathnoticesuchforexampleastheflatteryoftherichbythepoorandallthepainsandpangswhichmenexperienceinbringingupafamilyandinfindingmoneytobuynecessariesfortheirhouseholdborrowingandthenrepudiatinggettinghowtheycanandgivingthemoneyintothehandsofwomenandslavestokeepthemanyevilsofsomanykindswhichpeoplesufferinthiswayaremeanenoughandobviousenoughandnotworthspeakingofyeshesaidamanhasnoneedofeyesinordertoperceivethatandfromalltheseevilstheywillbedeliveredandtheirlifewillbeblessedasthelifeofolympicvictorsandyetmoreblessedhowsotheolympicvictorisaidisdeemedhappyinreceivingapartonlyoftheblessednesswhichissecuredtoourcitizenswhohavewonamoregloriousvictoryandhaveamorecompletemaintenanceatthepubliccostforthevictorywhichtheyhavewonisthesalvationofthewholestateandthecrownwithwhichtheyandtheirchildrenarecrownedisthefulnessofallthatlifeneedstheyreceiverewardsfromthehandsoftheircountrywhilelivingandafterdeathhaveanhonourableburialyeshesaidandgloriousrewardstheyaredoyourememberisaidhowinthecourseofthepreviousdiscussionsomeonewhoshallbenamelessaccusedusofmakingourguardiansunhappytheyhadnothingandmighthavepossessedallthingstowhomwerepliedthatifanoccasionofferedwemightperhapshereafterconsiderthisquestionbutthatasatpresentadvisedwewouldmakeourguardianstrulyguardiansandthatwewerefashioningthestatewithaviewtothegreatesthappinessnotofanyparticularclassbutofthewholeyesirememberandwhatdoyousaynowthatthelifeofourprotectorsismadeouttobefarbetterandnoblerthanthatofolympicvictorsisthelifeofshoemakersoranyotherartisansorofhusbandmentobecomparedwithitcertainlynotatthesametimeioughtheretorepeatwhatihavesaidelsewherethatifanyofourguardiansshalltrytobehappyinsuchamannerthathewillceasetobeaguardianandisnotcontentwiththissafeandharmoniouslifewhichinourjudgmentisofalllivesthebestbutinfatuatedbysomeyouthfulconceitofhappinesswhichgetsupintohisheadshallseektoappropriatethewholestatetohimselfthenhewillhavetolearnhowwiselyhesiodspokewhenhesaidhalfismorethanthewholeifheweretoconsultmeishouldsaytohimstaywhereyouarewhenyouhavetheofferofsuchalifeyouagreethenisaidthatmenandwomenaretohaveacommonwayoflifesuchaswehavedescribedcommoneducationcommonchildrenandtheyaretowatchoverthecitizensincommonwhetherabidinginthecityorgoingouttowartheyaretokeepwatchtogetherandtohunttogetherlikedogsandalwaysandinallthingsasfarastheyareablewomenaretosharewiththemenandinsodoingtheywilldowhatisbestandwillnotviolatebutpreservethenaturalrelationofthesexesiagreewithyouherepliedtheenquiryisaidhasyettobemadewhethersuchacommunitybefoundpossibleasamongotheranimalssoalsoamongmenandifpossibleinwhatwaypossibleyouhaveanticipatedthequestionwhichiwasabouttosuggestthereisnodifficultyisaidinseeinghowwarwillbecarriedonbythemhowwhyofcoursetheywillgoonexpeditionstogetherandwilltakewiththemanyoftheirchildrenwhoarestrongenoughthatafterthemanneroftheartisanschildtheymaylookonattheworkwhichtheywillhavetodowhentheyaregrownupandbesideslookingontheywillhavetohelpandbeofuseinwarandtowaitupontheirfathersandmothersdidyouneverobserveintheartshowthepottersboyslookonandhelplongbeforetheytouchthewheelyesihaveandshallpottersbemorecarefulineducatingtheirchildrenandingivingthemtheopportunityofseeingandpractisingtheirdutiesthanourguardianswillbetheideaisridiculoushesaidthereisalsotheeffectontheparentswithwhomaswithotheranimalsthepresenceoftheiryoungoneswillbethegreatestincentivetovalourthatisquitetruesocratesandyetiftheyaredefeatedwhichmayoftenhappeninwarhowgreatthedangeristhechildrenwillbelostaswellastheirparentsandthestatewillneverrecovertrueisaidbutwouldyouneverallowthemtorunanyriskiamfarfromsayingthatwellbutiftheyareevertorunariskshouldtheynotdosoonsomeoccasionwheniftheyescapedisastertheywillbethebetterforitclearlywhetherthefuturesoldiersdoordonotseewarinthedaysoftheiryouthisaveryimportantmatterforthesakeofwhichsomeriskmayfairlybeincurredyesveryimportantthisthenmustbeourfirststeptomakeourchildrenspectatorsofwarbutwemustalsocontrivethattheyshallbesecuredagainstdangerthenallwillbewelltruetheirparentsmaybesupposednottobeblindtotherisksofwarbuttoknowasfarashumanforesightcanwhatexpeditionsaresafeandwhatdangerousthatmaybeassumedandtheywilltakethemonthesafeexpeditionsandbecautiousaboutthedangerousonestrueandtheywillplacethemunderthecommandofexperiencedveteranswhowillbetheirleadersandteachersveryproperlystillthedangersofwarcannotbealwaysforeseenthereisagooddealofchanceaboutthemtruethenagainstsuchchancesthechildrenmustbeatoncefurnishedwithwingsinorderthatinthehourofneedtheymayflyawayandescapewhatdoyoumeanhesaidimeanthatwemustmountthemonhorsesintheirearliestyouthandwhentheyhavelearnttoridetakethemonhorsebacktoseewarthehorsesmustnotbespiritedandwarlikebutthemosttractableandyettheswiftestthatcanbehadinthiswaytheywillgetanexcellentviewofwhatishereaftertobetheirownbusinessandifthereisdangertheyhaveonlytofollowtheirelderleadersandescapeibelievethatyouarerighthesaidnextastowarwhataretobetherelationsofyoursoldierstooneanotherandtotheirenemiesishouldbeinclinedtoproposethatthesoldierwholeaveshisrankorthrowsawayhisarmsorisguiltyofanyotheractofcowardiceshouldbedegradedintotherankofahusbandmanorartisanwhatdoyouthinkbyallmeansishouldsayandhewhoallowshimselftobetakenprisonermayaswellbemadeapresentoftohisenemiesheistheirlawfulpreyandletthemdowhattheylikewithhimcertainlybuttheherowhohasdistinguishedhimselfwhatshallbedonetohiminthefirstplaceheshallreceivehonourinthearmyfromhisyouthfulcomradeseveryoneoftheminsuccessionshallcrownhimwhatdoyousayiapproveandwhatdoyousaytohisreceivingtherighthandoffellowshiptothattooiagreebutyouwillhardlyagreetomynextproposalwhatisyourproposalthatheshouldkissandbekissedbythemmostcertainlyandishouldbedisposedtogofurtherandsayletnoonewhomhehasamindtokissrefusetobekissedbyhimwhiletheexpeditionlastssothatiftherebealoverinthearmywhetherhislovebeyouthormaidenhemaybemoreeagertowintheprizeofvalourcapitalisaidthatthebravemanistohavemorewivesthanothershasbeenalreadydeterminedandheistohavefirstchoicesinsuchmattersmorethanothersinorderthathemayhaveasmanychildrenaspossibleagreedagainthereisanothermannerinwhichaccordingtohomerbraveyouthsshouldbehonouredforhetellshowajaxafterhehaddistinguishedhimselfinbattlewasrewardedwithlongchineswhichseemstobeacomplimentappropriatetoaherointheflowerofhisagebeingnotonlyatributeofhonourbutalsoaverystrengtheningthingmosttruehesaidtheninthisisaidhomershallbeourteacherandwetooatsacrificesandonthelikeoccasionswillhonourthebraveaccordingtothemeasureoftheirvalourwhethermenorwomenwithhymnsandthoseotherdistinctionswhichwewerementioningalsowithseatsofprecedenceandmeatsandfullcupsandinhonouringthemweshallbeatthesametimetrainingthemthatherepliedisexcellentyesisaidandwhenamandiesgloriouslyinwarshallwenotsayinthefirstplacethatheisofthegoldenracetobesurenayhavewenottheauthorityofhesiodforaffirmingthatwhentheyaredeadtheyareholyangelsupontheearthauthorsofgoodavertersofeviltheguardiansofspeechgiftedmenyesandweaccepthisauthoritywemustlearnofthegodhowwearetoorderthesepultureofdivineandheroicpersonagesandwhatistobetheirspecialdistinctionandwemustdoashebidsbyallmeansandinagestocomewewillreverencethemandkneelbeforetheirsepulchresasatthegravesofheroesandnotonlytheybutanywhoaredeemedpreeminentlygoodwhethertheydiefromageorinanyotherwayshallbeadmittedtothesamehonoursthatisveryrighthesaidnexthowshalloursoldierstreattheirenemieswhataboutthisinwhatrespectdoyoumeanfirstofallinregardtoslaverydoyouthinkitrightthathellenesshouldenslavehellenicstatesorallowotherstoenslavethemiftheycanhelpshouldnottheircustombetosparethemconsideringthedangerwhichthereisthatthewholeracemayonedayfallundertheyokeofthebarbarianstosparethemisinfinitelybetterthennohelleneshouldbeownedbythemasaslavethatisarulewhichtheywillobserveandadvisetheotherhellenestoobservecertainlyhesaidtheywillinthiswaybeunitedagainstthebarbariansandwillkeeptheirhandsoffoneanothernextastotheslainoughttheconquerorsisaidtotakeanythingbuttheirarmourdoesnotthepracticeofdespoilinganenemyaffordanexcusefornotfacingthebattlecowardsskulkaboutthedeadpretendingthattheyarefulfillingadutyandmanyanarmybeforenowhasbeenlostfromthisloveofplunderverytrueandistherenotilliberalityandavariceinrobbingacorpseandalsoadegreeofmeannessandwomanishnessinmakinganenemyofthedeadbodywhentherealenemyhasflownawayandleftonlyhisfightinggearbehindhimisnotthisratherlikeadogwhocannotgetathisassailantquarrellingwiththestoneswhichstrikehiminsteadverylikeadoghesaidthenwemustabstainfromspoilingthedeadorhinderingtheirburialyesherepliedwemostcertainlymustneithershallweofferuparmsatthetemplesofthegodsleastofallthearmsofhellenesifwecaretomaintaingoodfeelingwithotherhellenesandindeedwehavereasontofearthattheofferingofspoilstakenfromkinsmenmaybeapollutionunlesscommandedbythegodhimselfverytrueagainastothedevastationofhellenicterritoryortheburningofhouseswhatistobethepracticemayihavethepleasurehesaidofhearingyouropinionbothshouldbeforbiddeninmyjudgmentiwouldtaketheannualproduceandnomoreshallitellyouwhypraydowhyyouseethereisadifferenceinthenamesdiscordandwarandiimaginethatthereisalsoadifferenceintheirnaturestheoneisexpressiveofwhatisinternalanddomestictheotherofwhatisexternalandforeignandthefirstofthetwoistermeddiscordandonlythesecondwarthatisaveryproperdistinctionherepliedandmayinotobservewithequalproprietythatthehellenicraceisallunitedtogetherbytiesofbloodandfriendshipandalienandstrangetothebarbariansverygoodhesaidandthereforewhenhellenesfightwithbarbariansandbarbarianswithhellenestheywillbedescribedbyusasbeingatwarwhentheyfightandbynatureenemiesandthiskindofantagonismshouldbecalledwarbutwhenhellenesfightwithoneanotherweshallsaythathellasistheninastateofdisorderanddiscordtheybeingbynaturefriendsandsuchenmityistobecalleddiscordiagreeconsiderthenisaidwhenthatwhichwehaveacknowledgedtobediscordoccursandacityisdividedifbothpartiesdestroythelandsandburnthehousesofoneanotherhowwickeddoesthestrifeappearnotrueloverofhiscountrywouldbringhimselftotearinpieceshisownnurseandmothertheremightbereasonintheconquerordeprivingtheconqueredoftheirharvestbutstilltheywouldhavetheideaofpeaceintheirheartsandwouldnotmeantogoonfightingforeveryeshesaidthatisabettertemperthantheotherandwillnotthecitywhichyouarefoundingbeanhelleniccityitoughttobeherepliedthenwillnotthecitizensbegoodandcivilizedyesverycivilizedandwilltheynotbeloversofhellasandthinkofhellasastheirownlandandshareinthecommontemplesmostcertainlyandanydifferencewhicharisesamongthemwillberegardedbythemasdiscordonlyaquarrelamongfriendswhichisnottobecalledawarcertainlynotthentheywillquarrelasthosewhointendsomedaytobereconciledcertainlytheywillusefriendlycorrectionbutwillnotenslaveordestroytheiropponentstheywillbecorrectorsnotenemiesjustsoandastheyarehellenesthemselvestheywillnotdevastatehellasnorwilltheyburnhousesnoreversupposethatthewholepopulationofacitymenwomenandchildrenareequallytheirenemiesfortheyknowthattheguiltofwarisalwaysconfinedtoafewpersonsandthatthemanyaretheirfriendsandforallthesereasonstheywillbeunwillingtowastetheirlandsandrasetheirhousestheirenmitytothemwillonlylastuntilthemanyinnocentsufferershavecompelledtheguiltyfewtogivesatisfactioniagreehesaidthatourcitizensshouldthusdealwiththeirhellenicenemiesandwithbarbariansasthehellenesnowdealwithoneanotherthenletusenactthislawalsoforourguardiansthattheyareneithertodevastatethelandsofhellenesnortoburntheirhousesagreedandwemayagreealsointhinkingthattheselikeallourpreviousenactmentsareverygoodbutstillimustsaysocratesthatifyouareallowedtogooninthiswayyouwillentirelyforgettheotherquestionwhichatthecommencementofthisdiscussionyouthrustasideissuchanorderofthingspossibleandhowifatallforiamquitereadytoacknowledgethattheplanwhichyouproposeifonlyfeasiblewoulddoallsortsofgoodtothestateiwilladdwhatyouhaveomittedthatyourcitizenswillbethebravestofwarriorsandwillneverleavetheirranksfortheywillallknowoneanotherandeachwillcalltheotherfatherbrothersonandifyousupposethewomentojointheirarmieswhetherinthesamerankorinthereareitherasaterrortotheenemyorasauxiliariesincaseofneediknowthattheywillthenbeabsolutelyinvincibleandtherearemanydomesticadvantageswhichmightalsobementionedandwhichialsofullyacknowledgebutasiadmitalltheseadvantagesandasmanymoreasyoupleaseifonlythisstateofyoursweretocomeintoexistenceweneedsaynomoreaboutthemassumingthentheexistenceofthestateletusnowturntothequestionofpossibilityandwaysandmeanstherestmaybeleftifiloiterforamomentyouinstantlymakearaiduponmeisaidandhavenomercyihavehardlyescapedthefirstandsecondwavesandyouseemnottobeawarethatyouarenowbringinguponmethethirdwhichisthegreatestandheaviestwhenyouhaveseenandheardthethirdwaveithinkyouwillbemoreconsiderateandwillacknowledgethatsomefearandhesitationwasnaturalrespectingaproposalsoextraordinaryasthatwhichihavenowtostateandinvestigatethemoreappealsofthissortwhichyoumakehesaidthemoredeterminedarewethatyoushalltellushowsuchastateispossiblespeakoutandatonceletmebeginbyremindingyouthatwefoundourwayhitherinthesearchafterjusticeandinjusticetrueherepliedbutwhatofthatiwasonlygoingtoaskwhetherifwehavediscoveredthemwearetorequirethatthejustmanshouldinnothingfailofabsolutejusticeormaywebesatisfiedwithanapproximationandtheattainmentinhimofahigherdegreeofjusticethanistobefoundinothermentheapproximationwillbeenoughwewereenquiringintothenatureofabsolutejusticeandintothecharacteroftheperfectlyjustandintoinjusticeandtheperfectlyunjustthatwemighthaveanidealweweretolookattheseinorderthatwemightjudgeofourownhappinessandunhappinessaccordingtothestandardwhichtheyexhibitedandthedegreeinwhichweresembledthembutnotwithanyviewofshowingthattheycouldexistinfacttruehesaidwouldapainterbeanytheworsebecauseafterhavingdelineatedwithconsummateartanidealofaperfectlybeautifulmanhewasunabletoshowthatanysuchmancouldeverhaveexistedhewouldbenonetheworsewellandwerewenotcreatinganidealofaperfectstatetobesureandisourtheoryaworsetheorybecauseweareunabletoprovethepossibilityofacitybeingorderedinthemannerdescribedsurelynotherepliedthatisthetruthisaidbutifatyourrequestiamtotryandshowhowandunderwhatconditionsthepossibilityishighestimustaskyouhavingthisinviewtorepeatyourformeradmissionswhatadmissionsiwanttoknowwhetheridealsareeverfullyrealizedinlanguagedoesnotthewordexpressmorethanthefactandmustnottheactualwhateveramanmaythinkalwaysinthenatureofthingsfallshortofthetruthwhatdoyousayiagreethenyoumustnotinsistonmyprovingthattheactualstatewillineveryrespectcoincidewiththeidealifweareonlyabletodiscoverhowacitymaybegovernednearlyasweproposedyouwilladmitthatwehavediscoveredthepossibilitywhichyoudemandandwillbecontentediamsurethatishouldbecontentedwillnotyouyesiwillletmenextendeavourtoshowwhatisthatfaultinstateswhichisthecauseoftheirpresentmaladministrationandwhatistheleastchangewhichwillenableastatetopassintothetruerformandletthechangeifpossiblebeofonethingonlyorifnotoftwoatanyrateletthechangesbeasfewandslightaspossiblecertainlyherepliedithinkisaidthattheremightbeareformofthestateifonlyonechangeweremadewhichisnotaslightoreasythoughstillapossibleonewhatisithesaidnowthenisaidigotomeetthatwhichilikentothegreatestofthewavesyetshallthewordbespokeneventhoughthewavebreakanddrownmeinlaughteranddishonouranddoyoumarkmywordsproceedisaiduntilphilosophersarekingsorthekingsandprincesofthisworldhavethespiritandpowerofphilosophyandpoliticalgreatnessandwisdommeetinoneandthosecommonernatureswhopursueeithertotheexclusionoftheotherarecompelledtostandasidecitieswillneverhaverestfromtheirevilsnorthehumanraceasibelieveandthenonlywillthisourstatehaveapossibilityoflifeandbeholdthelightofdaysuchwasthethoughtmydearglauconwhichiwouldfainhaveutteredifithadnotseemedtooextravagantfortobeconvincedthatinnootherstatecantherebehappinessprivateorpublicisindeedahardthingsocrateswhatdoyoumeaniwouldhaveyouconsiderthatthewordwhichyouhaveutteredisoneatwhichnumerouspersonsandveryrespectablepersonstooinafigurepullingofftheircoatsallinamomentandseizinganyweaponthatcomestohandwillrunatyoumightandmainbeforeyouknowwhereyouareintendingtodoheavenknowswhatandifyoudontprepareananswerandputyourselfinmotionyouwillbeparedbytheirfinewitsandnomistakeyougotmeintothescrapeisaidandiwasquiterighthoweveriwilldoallicantogetyououtofitbuticanonlygiveyougoodwillandgoodadviceandperhapsimaybeabletofitanswerstoyourquestionsbetterthananotherthatisallandnowhavingsuchanauxiliaryyoumustdoyourbesttoshowtheunbelieversthatyouarerightioughttotryisaidsinceyouoffermesuchinvaluableassistanceandithinkthatifthereistobeachanceofourescapingwemustexplaintothemwhomwemeanwhenwesaythatphilosophersaretoruleinthestatethenweshallbeabletodefendourselvestherewillbediscoveredtobesomenatureswhooughttostudyphilosophyandtobeleadersinthestateandotherswhoarenotborntobephilosophersandaremeanttobefollowersratherthanleadersthennowforadefinitionhesaidfollowmeisaidandihopethatimayinsomewayorotherbeabletogiveyouasatisfactoryexplanationproceedidaresaythatyourememberandthereforeineednotremindyouthataloverifheisworthyofthenameoughttoshowhislovenottosomeonepartofthatwhichhelovesbuttothewholeireallydonotunderstandandthereforebegofyoutoassistmymemoryanotherpersonisaidmightfairlyreplyasyoudobutamanofpleasurelikeyourselfoughttoknowthatallwhoareintheflowerofyouthdosomehoworotherraiseapangoremotioninaloversbreastandarethoughtbyhimtobeworthyofhisaffectionateregardsisnotthisawaywhichyouhavewiththefaironehasasnubnoseandyoupraisehischarmingfacethehooknoseofanotherhasyousayaroyallookwhilehewhoisneithersnubnorhookedhasthegraceofregularitythedarkvisageismanlythefairarechildrenofthegodsandastothesweethoneypaleastheyarecalledwhatistheverynamebuttheinventionofaloverwhotalksindiminutivesandisnotaversetopalenessifappearingonthecheekofyouthinawordthereisnoexcusewhichyouwillnotmakeandnothingwhichyouwillnotsayinordernottoloseasingleflowerthatbloomsinthespringtimeofyouthifyoumakemeanauthorityinmattersofloveforthesakeoftheargumentiassentandwhatdoyousayofloversofwinedoyounotseethemdoingthesametheyaregladofanypretextofdrinkinganywineverygoodandthesameistrueofambitiousmeniftheycannotcommandanarmytheyarewillingtocommandafileandiftheycannotbehonouredbyreallygreatandimportantpersonstheyaregladtobehonouredbylesserandmeanerpeoplebuthonourofsomekindtheymusthaveexactlyoncemoreletmeaskdoeshewhodesiresanyclassofgoodsdesirethewholeclassorapartonlythewholeandmaywenotsayofthephilosopherthatheisalovernotofapartofwisdomonlybutofthewholeyesofthewholeandhewhodislikeslearningespeciallyinyouthwhenhehasnopowerofjudgingwhatisgoodandwhatisnotsuchanonewemaintainnottobeaphilosopheroraloverofknowledgejustashewhorefuseshisfoodisnothungryandmaybesaidtohaveabadappetiteandnotagoodoneverytruehesaidwhereashewhohasatasteforeverysortofknowledgeandwhoiscurioustolearnandisneversatisfiedmaybejustlytermedaphilosopheraminotrightglauconsaidifcuriositymakesaphilosopheryouwillfindmanyastrangebeingwillhaveatitletothenamealltheloversofsightshaveadelightinlearningandmustthereforebeincludedmusicalamateurstooareafolkstrangelyoutofplaceamongphilosophersfortheyarethelastpersonsintheworldwhowouldcometoanythinglikeaphilosophicaldiscussioniftheycouldhelpwhiletheyrunaboutatthedionysiacfestivalsasiftheyhadletouttheirearstoheareverychoruswhethertheperformanceisintownorcountrythatmakesnodifferencetheyaretherenowarewetomaintainthatalltheseandanywhohavesimilartastesaswellastheprofessorsofquiteminorartsarephilosopherscertainlynotirepliedtheyareonlyanimitationhesaidwhothenarethetruephilosophersthoseisaidwhoareloversofthevisionoftruththatisalsogoodhesaidbutishouldliketoknowwhatyoumeantoanotherirepliedimighthaveadifficultyinexplainingbutiamsurethatyouwilladmitapropositionwhichiamabouttomakewhatisthepropositionthatsincebeautyistheoppositeofuglinesstheyaretwocertainlyandinasmuchastheyaretwoeachofthemisonetrueagainandofjustandunjustgoodandevilandofeveryotherclassthesameremarkholdstakensinglyeachofthemisonebutfromthevariouscombinationsofthemwithactionsandthingsandwithoneanothertheyareseeninallsortsoflightsandappearmanyverytrueandthisisthedistinctionwhichidrawbetweenthesightlovingartlovingpracticalclassandthoseofwhomiamspeakingandwhoarealoneworthyofthenameofphilosophershowdoyoudistinguishthemhesaidtheloversofsoundsandsightsirepliedareasiconceivefondoffinetonesandcoloursandformsandalltheartificialproductsthataremadeoutofthembuttheirmindisincapableofseeingorlovingabsolutebeautytrueherepliedfewaretheywhoareabletoattaintothesightofthisverytrueandhewhohavingasenseofbeautifulthingshasnosenseofabsolutebeautyorwhoifanotherleadhimtoaknowledgeofthatbeautyisunabletofollowofsuchanoneiaskisheawakeorinadreamonlyreflectisnotthedreamersleepingorwakingonewholikensdissimilarthingswhoputsthecopyintheplaceoftherealobjectishouldcertainlysaythatsuchanonewasdreamingbuttakethecaseoftheotherwhorecognisestheexistenceofabsolutebeautyandisabletodistinguishtheideafromtheobjectswhichparticipateintheideaneitherputtingtheobjectsintheplaceoftheideanortheideaintheplaceoftheobjectsisheadreamerorisheawakeheiswideawakeandmaywenotsaythatthemindoftheonewhoknowshasknowledgeandthatthemindoftheotherwhoopinesonlyhasopinioncertainlybutsupposethatthelattershouldquarrelwithusanddisputeourstatementcanweadministeranysoothingcordialoradvicetohimwithoutrevealingtohimthatthereissaddisorderinhiswitswemustcertainlyofferhimsomegoodadviceherepliedcomethenandletusthinkofsomethingtosaytohimshallwebeginbyassuringhimthatheiswelcometoanyknowledgewhichhemayhaveandthatwearerejoicedathishavingitbutweshouldliketoaskhimaquestiondoeshewhohasknowledgeknowsomethingornothingyoumustanswerforhimianswerthatheknowssomethingsomethingthatisorisnotsomethingthatisforhowcanthatwhichisnoteverbeknownandareweassuredafterlookingatthematterfrommanypointsofviewthatabsolutebeingisormaybeabsolutelyknownbutthattheutterlynonexistentisutterlyunknownnothingcanbemorecertaingoodbutiftherebeanythingwhichisofsuchanatureastobeandnottobethatwillhaveaplaceintermediatebetweenpurebeingandtheabsolutenegationofbeingyesbetweenthemandasknowledgecorrespondedtobeingandignoranceofnecessitytonotbeingforthatintermediatebetweenbeingandnotbeingtherehastobediscoveredacorrespondingintermediatebetweenignoranceandknowledgeiftherebesuchcertainlydoweadmittheexistenceofopinionundoubtedlyasbeingthesamewithknowledgeoranotherfacultyanotherfacultythenopinionandknowledgehavetodowithdifferentkindsofmattercorrespondingtothisdifferenceoffacultiesyesandknowledgeisrelativetobeingandknowsbeingbutbeforeiproceedfurtheriwillmakeadivisionwhatdivisioniwillbeginbyplacingfacultiesinaclassbythemselvestheyarepowersinusandinallotherthingsbywhichwedoaswedosightandhearingforexampleishouldcallfacultieshaveiclearlyexplainedtheclasswhichimeanyesiquiteunderstandthenletmetellyoumyviewaboutthemidonotseethemandthereforethedistinctionsoffigurecolourandthelikewhichenablemetodiscernthedifferencesofsomethingsdonotapplytotheminspeakingofafacultyithinkonlyofitssphereanditsresultandthatwhichhasthesamesphereandthesameresulticallthesamefacultybutthatwhichhasanothersphereandanotherresulticalldifferentwouldthatbeyourwayofspeakingyesandwillyoubesoverygoodastoansweronemorequestionwouldyousaythatknowledgeisafacultyorinwhatclasswouldyouplaceitcertainlyknowledgeisafacultyandthemightiestofallfacultiesandisopinionalsoafacultycertainlyhesaidforopinionisthatwithwhichweareabletoformanopinionandyetyouwereacknowledgingalittlewhileagothatknowledgeisnotthesameasopinionwhyyeshesaidhowcananyreasonablebeingeveridentifythatwhichisinfalliblewiththatwhicherrsanexcellentanswerprovingisaidthatwearequiteconsciousofadistinctionbetweenthemyesthenknowledgeandopinionhavingdistinctpowershavealsodistinctspheresorsubjectmattersthatiscertainbeingisthesphereorsubjectmatterofknowledgeandknowledgeistoknowthenatureofbeingyesandopinionistohaveanopinionyesanddoweknowwhatweopineoristhesubjectmatterofopinionthesameasthesubjectmatterofknowledgenayherepliedthathasbeenalreadydisprovenifdifferenceinfacultyimpliesdifferenceinthesphereorsubjectmatterandifasweweresayingopinionandknowledgearedistinctfacultiesthenthesphereofknowledgeandofopinioncannotbethesamethenifbeingisthesubjectmatterofknowledgesomethingelsemustbethesubjectmatterofopinionyessomethingelsewellthenisnotbeingthesubjectmatterofopinionorratherhowcantherebeanopinionatallaboutnotbeingreflectwhenamanhasanopinionhashenotanopinionaboutsomethingcanhehaveanopinionwhichisanopinionaboutnothingimpossiblehewhohasanopinionhasanopinionaboutsomeonethingyesandnotbeingisnotonethingbutproperlyspeakingnothingtrueofnotbeingignorancewasassumedtobethenecessarycorrelativeofbeingknowledgetruehesaidthenopinionisnotconcernedeitherwithbeingorwithnotbeingnotwitheitherandcanthereforeneitherbeignorancenorknowledgethatseemstobetruebutisopiniontobesoughtwithoutandbeyondeitheroftheminagreaterclearnessthanknowledgeorinagreaterdarknessthanignoranceinneitherthenisupposethatopinionappearstoyoutobedarkerthanknowledgebutlighterthanignorancebothandinnosmalldegreeandalsotobewithinandbetweenthemyesthenyouwouldinferthatopinionisintermediatenoquestionbutwerewenotsayingbeforethatifanythingappearedtobeofasortwhichisandisnotatthesametimethatsortofthingwouldappearalsotolieintheintervalbetweenpurebeingandabsolutenotbeingandthatthecorrespondingfacultyisneitherknowledgenorignorancebutwillbefoundintheintervalbetweenthemtrueandinthatintervaltherehasnowbeendiscoveredsomethingwhichwecallopiniontherehasthenwhatremainstobediscoveredistheobjectwhichpartakesequallyofthenatureofbeingandnotbeingandcannotrightlybetermedeitherpureandsimplethisunknowntermwhendiscoveredwemaytrulycallthesubjectofopinionandassigneachtotheirproperfacultytheextremestothefacultiesoftheextremesandthemeantothefacultyofthemeantruethisbeingpremisediwouldaskthegentlemanwhoisofopinionthatthereisnoabsoluteorunchangeableideaofbeautyinwhoseopinionthebeautifulisthemanifoldheisayyourloverofbeautifulsightswhocannotbeartobetoldthatthebeautifulisoneandthejustisoneorthatanythingisonetohimiwouldappealsayingwillyoubesoverykindsirastotelluswhetherofallthesebeautifulthingsthereisonewhichwillnotbefounduglyorofthejustwhichwillnotbefoundunjustoroftheholywhichwillnotalsobeunholynoherepliedthebeautifulwillinsomepointofviewbefounduglyandthesameistrueoftherestandmaynotthemanywhicharedoublesbealsohalvesdoublesthatisofonethingandhalvesofanotherquitetrueandthingsgreatandsmallheavyandlightastheyaretermedwillnotbedenotedbytheseanymorethanbytheoppositenamestrueboththeseandtheoppositenameswillalwaysattachtoallofthemandcananyoneofthosemanythingswhicharecalledbyparticularnamesbesaidtobethisratherthannottobethisherepliedtheyarelikethepunningriddleswhichareaskedatfeastsorthechildrenspuzzleabouttheeunuchaimingatthebatwithwhathehithimastheysayinthepuzzleanduponwhatthebatwassittingtheindividualobjectsofwhichiamspeakingarealsoariddleandhaveadoublesensenorcanyoufixtheminyourmindeitherasbeingornotbeingorbothorneitherthenwhatwillyoudowiththemisaidcantheyhaveabetterplacethanbetweenbeingandnotbeingfortheyareclearlynotingreaterdarknessornegationthannotbeingormorefulloflightandexistencethanbeingthatisquitetruehesaidthusthenweseemtohavediscoveredthatthemanyideaswhichthemultitudeentertainaboutthebeautifulandaboutallotherthingsaretossingaboutinsomeregionwhichishalfwaybetweenpurebeingandpurenotbeingwehaveyesandwehadbeforeagreedthatanythingofthiskindwhichwemightfindwastobedescribedasmatterofopinionandnotasmatterofknowledgebeingtheintermediatefluxwhichiscaughtanddetainedbytheintermediatefacultyquitetruethenthosewhoseethemanybeautifulandwhoyetneitherseeabsolutebeautynorcanfollowanyguidewhopointsthewaythitherwhoseethemanyjustandnotabsolutejusticeandthelikesuchpersonsmaybesaidtohaveopinionbutnotknowledgethatiscertainbutthosewhoseetheabsoluteandeternalandimmutablemaybesaidtoknowandnottohaveopiniononlyneithercanthatbedeniedtheoneloveandembracethesubjectsofknowledgetheotherthoseofopinionthelatterarethesameasidaresayyouwillrememberwholistenedtosweetsoundsandgazeduponfaircoloursbutwouldnottoleratetheexistenceofabsolutebeautyyesiremembershallwethenbeguiltyofanyimproprietyincallingthemloversofopinionratherthanloversofwisdomandwilltheybeveryangrywithusforthusdescribingthemishalltellthemnottobeangrynomanshouldbeangryatwhatistruebutthosewholovethetruthineachthingaretobecalledloversofwisdomandnotloversofopinionassuredlybookviandthusglauconaftertheargumenthasgoneawearywaythetrueandthefalsephilosophershaveatlengthappearedinviewidonotthinkhesaidthatthewaycouldhavebeenshortenedisupposenotisaidandyetibelievethatwemighthavehadabetterviewofbothofthemifthediscussioncouldhavebeenconfinedtothisonesubjectandiftherewerenotmanyotherquestionsawaitinguswhichhewhodesirestoseeinwhatrespectthelifeofthejustdiffersfromthatoftheunjustmustconsiderandwhatisthenextquestionheaskedsurelyisaidtheonewhichfollowsnextinorderinasmuchasphilosophersonlyareabletograsptheeternalandunchangeableandthosewhowanderintheregionofthemanyandvariablearenotphilosophersimustaskyouwhichofthetwoclassesshouldbetherulersofourstateandhowcanwerightlyanswerthatquestionwhicheverofthetwoarebestabletoguardthelawsandinstitutionsofourstateletthembeourguardiansverygoodneitherisaidcantherebeanyquestionthattheguardianwhoistokeepanythingshouldhaveeyesratherthannoeyestherecanbenoquestionofthatandarenotthosewhoareverilyandindeedwantingintheknowledgeofthetruebeingofeachthingandwhohaveintheirsoulsnoclearpatternandareunableaswithapainterseyetolookattheabsolutetruthandtothatoriginaltorepairandhavingperfectvisionoftheotherworldtoorderthelawsaboutbeautygoodnessjusticeinthisifnotalreadyorderedandtoguardandpreservetheorderofthemarenotsuchpersonsiasksimplyblindtrulyherepliedtheyaremuchinthatconditionandshalltheybeourguardianswhenthereareotherswhobesidesbeingtheirequalsinexperienceandfallingshortoftheminnoparticularofvirtuealsoknowtheverytruthofeachthingtherecanbenoreasonhesaidforrejectingthosewhohavethisgreatestofallgreatqualitiestheymustalwayshavethefirstplaceunlesstheyfailinsomeotherrespectsupposethenisaidthatwedeterminehowfartheycanunitethisandtheotherexcellencesbyallmeansinthefirstplaceaswebeganbyobservingthenatureofthephilosopherhastobeascertainedwemustcometoanunderstandingabouthimandwhenwehavedonesothenifiamnotmistakenweshallalsoacknowledgethatsuchanunionofqualitiesispossibleandthatthoseinwhomtheyareunitedandthoseonlyshouldberulersinthestatewhatdoyoumeanletussupposethatphilosophicalmindsalwaysloveknowledgeofasortwhichshowsthemtheeternalnaturenotvaryingfromgenerationandcorruptionagreedandfurtherisaidletusagreethattheyareloversofalltruebeingthereisnopartwhethergreaterorlessormoreorlesshonourablewhichtheyarewillingtorenounceaswesaidbeforeoftheloverandthemanofambitiontrueandiftheyaretobewhatweweredescribingistherenotanotherqualitywhichtheyshouldalsopossesswhatqualitytruthfulnesstheywillneverintentionallyreceiveintotheirmindfalsehoodwhichistheirdetestationandtheywilllovethetruthyesthatmaybesafelyaffirmedofthemmaybemyfriendirepliedisnotthewordsayrathermustbeaffirmedforhewhosenatureisamorousofanythingcannothelplovingallthatbelongsorisakintotheobjectofhisaffectionsrighthesaidandisthereanythingmoreakintowisdomthantruthhowcantherebecanthesamenaturebealoverofwisdomandaloveroffalsehoodneverthetrueloveroflearningthenmustfromhisearliestyouthasfarasinhimliesdesirealltruthassuredlybutthenagainasweknowbyexperiencehewhosedesiresarestronginonedirectionwillhavethemweakerinotherstheywillbelikeastreamwhichhasbeendrawnoffintoanotherchanneltruehewhosedesiresaredrawntowardsknowledgeineveryformwillbeabsorbedinthepleasuresofthesoulandwillhardlyfeelbodilypleasureimeanifhebeatruephilosopherandnotashamonethatismostcertainsuchanoneissuretobetemperateandthereverseofcovetousforthemotiveswhichmakeanothermandesirousofhavingandspendinghavenoplaceinhischaracterverytrueanothercriterionofthephilosophicalnaturehasalsotobeconsideredwhatisthatthereshouldbenosecretcornerofilliberalitynothingcanbemoreantagonisticthanmeannesstoasoulwhichiseverlongingafterthewholeofthingsbothdivineandhumanmosttrueherepliedthenhowcanhewhohasmagnificenceofmindandisthespectatorofalltimeandallexistencethinkmuchofhumanlifehecannotorcansuchanoneaccountdeathfearfulnoindeedthenthecowardlyandmeannaturehasnopartintruephilosophycertainlynotoragaincanhewhoisharmoniouslyconstitutedwhoisnotcovetousormeanoraboasteroracowardcanheisayeverbeunjustorhardinhisdealingsimpossiblethenyouwillsoonobservewhetheramanisjustandgentleorrudeandunsociablethesearethesignswhichdistinguisheveninyouththephilosophicalnaturefromtheunphilosophicaltruethereisanotherpointwhichshouldberemarkedwhatpointwhetherhehasorhasnotapleasureinlearningfornoonewilllovethatwhichgiveshimpainandinwhichaftermuchtoilhemakeslittleprogresscertainlynotandagainifheisforgetfulandretainsnothingofwhathelearnswillhenotbeanemptyvesselthatiscertainlabouringinvainhemustendinhatinghimselfandhisfruitlessoccupationyesthenasoulwhichforgetscannotberankedamonggenuinephilosophicnatureswemustinsistthatthephilosophershouldhaveagoodmemorycertainlyandoncemoretheinharmoniousandunseemlynaturecanonlytendtodisproportionundoubtedlyanddoyouconsidertruthtobeakintoproportionortodisproportiontoproportionthenbesidesotherqualitieswemusttrytofindanaturallywellproportionedandgraciousmindwhichwillmovespontaneouslytowardsthetruebeingofeverythingcertainlywellanddonotallthesequalitieswhichwehavebeenenumeratinggotogetherandaretheynotinamannernecessarytoasoulwhichistohaveafullandperfectparticipationofbeingtheyareabsolutelynecessaryherepliedandmustnotthatbeablamelessstudywhichheonlycanpursuewhohasthegiftofagoodmemoryandisquicktolearnnoblegraciousthefriendoftruthjusticecouragetemperancewhoarehiskindredthegodofjealousyhimselfhesaidcouldfindnofaultwithsuchastudyandtomenlikehimisaidwhenperfectedbyyearsandeducationandtotheseonlyyouwillentrustthestatehereadeimantusinterposedandsaidtothesestatementssocratesnoonecanofferareplybutwhenyoutalkinthiswayastrangefeelingpassesoverthemindsofyourhearerstheyfancythattheyareledastrayalittleateachstepintheargumentowingtotheirownwantofskillinaskingandansweringquestionstheselittlesaccumulateandattheendofthediscussiontheyarefoundtohavesustainedamightyoverthrowandalltheirformernotionsappeartobeturnedupsidedownandasunskilfulplayersofdraughtsareatlastshutupbytheirmoreskilfuladversariesandhavenopiecetomovesotheytoofindthemselvesshutupatlastfortheyhavenothingtosayinthisnewgameofwhichwordsarethecountersandyetallthetimetheyareintherighttheobservationissuggestedtomebywhatisnowoccurringforanyoneofusmightsaythatalthoughinwordsheisnotabletomeetyouateachstepoftheargumentheseesasafactthatthevotariesofphilosophywhentheycarryonthestudynotonlyinyouthasapartofeducationbutasthepursuitoftheirmatureryearsmostofthembecomestrangemonstersnottosayutterroguesandthatthosewhomaybeconsideredthebestofthemaremadeuselesstotheworldbytheverystudywhichyouextolwellanddoyouthinkthatthosewhosaysoarewrongicannottellherepliedbutishouldliketoknowwhatisyouropinionhearmyansweriamofopinionthattheyarequiterightthenhowcanyoubejustifiedinsayingthatcitieswillnotceasefromeviluntilphilosophersruleinthemwhenphilosophersareacknowledgedbyustobeofnousetothemyouaskaquestionisaidtowhichareplycanonlybegiveninaparableyessocratesandthatisawayofspeakingtowhichyouarenotatallaccustomedisupposeiperceiveisaidthatyouarevastlyamusedathavingplungedmeintosuchahopelessdiscussionbutnowheartheparableandthenyouwillbestillmoreamusedatthemeagrenessofmyimaginationforthemannerinwhichthebestmenaretreatedintheirownstatesissogrievousthatnosinglethingonearthiscomparabletoitandthereforeifiamtopleadtheircauseimusthaverecoursetofictionandputtogetherafiguremadeupofmanythingslikethefabulousunionsofgoatsandstagswhicharefoundinpicturesimaginethenafleetorashipinwhichthereisacaptainwhoistallerandstrongerthananyofthecrewbutheisalittledeafandhasasimilarinfirmityinsightandhisknowledgeofnavigationisnotmuchbetterthesailorsarequarrellingwithoneanotheraboutthesteeringeveryoneisofopinionthathehasarighttosteerthoughhehasneverlearnedtheartofnavigationandcannottellwhotaughthimorwhenhelearnedandwillfurtherassertthatitcannotbetaughtandtheyarereadytocutinpiecesanyonewhosaysthecontrarytheythrongaboutthecaptainbeggingandprayinghimtocommitthehelmtothemandifatanytimetheydonotprevailbutothersarepreferredtothemtheykilltheothersorthrowthemoverboardandhavingfirstchainedupthenoblecaptainssenseswithdrinkorsomenarcoticdrugtheymutinyandtakepossessionoftheshipandmakefreewiththestoresthuseatinganddrinkingtheyproceedontheirvoyageinsuchmannerasmightbeexpectedofthemhimwhoistheirpartisanandcleverlyaidsthemintheirplotforgettingtheshipoutofthecaptainshandsintotheirownwhetherbyforceorpersuasiontheycomplimentwiththenameofsailorpilotableseamanandabusetheothersortofmanwhomtheycallagoodfornothingbutthatthetruepilotmustpayattentiontotheyearandseasonsandskyandstarsandwindsandwhateverelsebelongstohisartifheintendstobereallyqualifiedforthecommandofashipandthathemustandwillbethesteererwhetherotherpeoplelikeornotthepossibilityofthisunionofauthoritywiththesteerersarthasneverseriouslyenteredintotheirthoughtsorbeenmadepartoftheircallingnowinvesselswhichareinastateofmutinyandbysailorswhoaremutineershowwillthetruepilotberegardedwillhenotbecalledbythemapraterastargazeragoodfornothingofcoursesaidadeimantusthenyouwillhardlyneedisaidtoheartheinterpretationofthefigurewhichdescribesthetruephilosopherinhisrelationtothestateforyouunderstandalreadycertainlythensupposeyounowtakethisparabletothegentlemanwhoissurprisedatfindingthatphilosophershavenohonourintheircitiesexplainittohimandtrytoconvincehimthattheirhavinghonourwouldbefarmoreextraordinaryiwillsaytohimthatindeemingthebestvotariesofphilosophytobeuselesstotherestoftheworldheisrightbutalsotellhimtoattributetheiruselessnesstothefaultofthosewhowillnotusethemandnottothemselvesthepilotshouldnothumblybegthesailorstobecommandedbyhimthatisnottheorderofnatureneitherarethewisetogotothedoorsoftherichtheingeniousauthorofthissayingtoldaliebutthetruthisthatwhenamanisillwhetherheberichorpoortothephysicianhemustgoandhewhowantstobegovernedtohimwhoisabletogoverntherulerwhoisgoodforanythingoughtnottobeghissubjectstoberuledbyhimalthoughthepresentgovernorsofmankindareofadifferentstamptheymaybejustlycomparedtothemutinoussailorsandthetruehelmsmentothosewhoarecalledbythemgoodfornothingsandstargazerspreciselysohesaidforthesereasonsandamongmenlikethesephilosophythenoblestpursuitofallisnotlikelytobemuchesteemedbythoseoftheoppositefactionnotthatthegreatestandmostlastinginjuryisdonetoherbyheropponentsbutbyherownprofessingfollowersthesameofwhomyousupposetheaccusertosaythatthegreaternumberofthemarearrantroguesandthebestareuselessinwhichopinioniagreedyesandthereasonwhythegoodareuselesshasnowbeenexplainedtruethenshallweproceedtoshowthatthecorruptionofthemajorityisalsounavoidableandthatthisisnottobelaidtothechargeofphilosophyanymorethantheotherbyallmeansandletusaskandanswerinturnfirstgoingbacktothedescriptionofthegentleandnoblenaturetruthasyouwillrememberwashisleaderwhomhefollowedalwaysandinallthingsfailinginthishewasanimpostorandhadnopartorlotintruephilosophyyesthatwassaidwellandisnotthisonequalitytomentionnoothersgreatlyatvariancewithpresentnotionsofhimcertainlyhesaidandhavewenotarighttosayinhisdefencethatthetrueloverofknowledgeisalwaysstrivingafterbeingthatishisnaturehewillnotrestinthemultiplicityofindividualswhichisanappearanceonlybutwillgoonthekeenedgewillnotbebluntednortheforceofhisdesireabateuntilhehaveattainedtheknowledgeofthetruenatureofeveryessencebyasympatheticandkindredpowerinthesoulandbythatpowerdrawingnearandminglingandbecomingincorporatewithverybeinghavingbegottenmindandtruthhewillhaveknowledgeandwillliveandgrowtrulyandthenandnottillthenwillheceasefromhistravailnothinghesaidcanbemorejustthansuchadescriptionofhimandwilltheloveofaliebeanypartofaphilosophersnaturewillhenotutterlyhatealiehewillandwhentruthisthecaptainwecannotsuspectanyevilofthebandwhichheleadsimpossiblejusticeandhealthofmindwillbeofthecompanyandtemperancewillfollowaftertrueherepliedneitheristhereanyreasonwhyishouldagainsetinarraythephilosophersvirtuesasyouwilldoubtlessrememberthatcouragemagnificenceapprehensionmemorywerehisnaturalgiftsandyouobjectedthatalthoughnoonecoulddenywhatithensaidstillifyouleavewordsandlookatfactsthepersonswhoarethusdescribedaresomeofthemmanifestlyuselessandthegreaternumberutterlydepravedwewerethenledtoenquireintothegroundsoftheseaccusationsandhavenowarrivedatthepointofaskingwhyarethemajoritybadwhichquestionofnecessitybroughtusbacktotheexaminationanddefinitionofthetruephilosopherexactlyandwehavenexttoconsiderthecorruptionsofthephilosophicnaturewhysomanyarespoiledandsofewescapespoilingiamspeakingofthosewhoweresaidtobeuselessbutnotwickedandwhenwehavedonewiththemwewillspeakoftheimitatorsofphilosophywhatmannerofmenaretheywhoaspireafteraprofessionwhichisabovethemandofwhichtheyareunworthyandthenbytheirmanifoldinconsistenciesbringuponphilosophyanduponallphilosophersthatuniversalreprobationofwhichwespeakwhatarethesecorruptionshesaidiwillseeificanexplainthemtoyoueveryonewilladmitthatanaturehavinginperfectionallthequalitieswhichwerequiredinaphilosopherisarareplantwhichisseldomseenamongmenrareindeedandwhatnumberlessandpowerfulcausestendtodestroytheserarenatureswhatcausesinthefirstplacetherearetheirownvirtuestheircouragetemperanceandtherestofthemeveryoneofwhichpraiseworthyqualitiesandthisisamostsingularcircumstancedestroysanddistractsfromphilosophythesoulwhichisthepossessorofthemthatisverysingularherepliedthentherearealltheordinarygoodsoflifebeautywealthstrengthrankandgreatconnectionsinthestateyouunderstandthesortofthingsthesealsohaveacorruptinganddistractingeffectiunderstandbutishouldliketoknowmorepreciselywhatyoumeanaboutthemgraspthetruthasawholeisaidandintherightwayyouwillthenhavenodifficultyinapprehendingtheprecedingremarksandtheywillnolongerappearstrangetoyouandhowamitodosoheaskedwhyisaidweknowthatallgermsorseedswhethervegetableoranimalwhentheyfailtomeetwithpropernutrimentorclimateorsoilinproportiontotheirvigourareallthemoresensitivetothewantofasuitableenvironmentforevilisagreaterenemytowhatisgoodthantowhatisnotverytruethereisreasoninsupposingthatthefinestnatureswhenunderalienconditionsreceivemoreinjurythantheinferiorbecausethecontrastisgreatercertainlyandmaywenotsayadeimantusthatthemostgiftedmindswhentheyareilleducatedbecomepreeminentlybaddonotgreatcrimesandthespiritofpureevilspringoutofafulnessofnatureruinedbyeducationratherthanfromanyinferioritywhereasweaknaturesarescarcelycapableofanyverygreatgoodorverygreatevilthereithinkthatyouarerightandourphilosopherfollowsthesameanalogyheislikeaplantwhichhavingpropernurturemustnecessarilygrowandmatureintoallvirtuebutifsownandplantedinanaliensoilbecomesthemostnoxiousofallweedsunlesshebepreservedbysomedivinepowerdoyoureallythinkaspeoplesooftensaythatouryoutharecorruptedbysophistsorthatprivateteachersoftheartcorrupttheminanydegreeworthspeakingofarenotthepublicwhosaythesethingsthegreatestofallsophistsanddotheynoteducatetoperfectionyoungandoldmenandwomenalikeandfashionthemaftertheirownheartswhenisthisaccomplishedhesaidwhentheymeettogetherandtheworldsitsdownatanassemblyorinacourtoflaworatheatreoracamporinanyotherpopularresortandthereisagreatuproarandtheypraisesomethingswhicharebeingsaidordoneandblameotherthingsequallyexaggeratingbothshoutingandclappingtheirhandsandtheechooftherocksandtheplaceinwhichtheyareassembledredoublesthesoundofthepraiseorblameatsuchatimewillnotayoungmansheartastheysayleapwithinhimwillanyprivatetrainingenablehimtostandfirmagainsttheoverwhelmingfloodofpopularopinionorwillhebecarriedawaybythestreamwillhenothavethenotionsofgoodandevilwhichthepublicingeneralhavehewilldoastheydoandastheyaresuchwillhebeyessocratesnecessitywillcompelhimandyetisaidthereisastillgreaternecessitywhichhasnotbeenmentionedwhatisthatthegentleforceofattainderorconfiscationordeathwhichasyouareawarethesenewsophistsandeducatorswhoarethepublicapplywhentheirwordsarepowerlessindeedtheydoandinrightgoodearnestnowwhatopinionofanyothersophistorofanyprivatepersoncanbeexpectedtoovercomeinsuchanunequalcontestnoneherepliednoindeedisaideventomaketheattemptisagreatpieceoffollythereneitherisnorhasbeennoriseverlikelytobeanydifferenttypeofcharacterwhichhashadnoothertraininginvirtuebutthatwhichissuppliedbypublicopinionispeakmyfriendofhumanvirtueonlywhatismorethanhumanastheproverbsaysisnotincludedforiwouldnothaveyouignorantthatinthepresentevilstateofgovernmentswhateverissavedandcomestogoodissavedbythepowerofgodaswemaytrulysayiquiteassentherepliedthenletmecraveyourassentalsotoafurtherobservationwhatareyougoingtosaywhythatallthosemercenaryindividualswhomthemanycallsophistsandwhomtheydeemtobetheiradversariesdoinfactteachnothingbuttheopinionofthemanythatistosaytheopinionsoftheirassembliesandthisistheirwisdomimightcomparethemtoamanwhoshouldstudythetempersanddesiresofamightystrongbeastwhoisfedbyhimhewouldlearnhowtoapproachandhandlehimalsoatwhattimesandfromwhatcausesheisdangerousorthereverseandwhatisthemeaningofhisseveralcriesandbywhatsoundswhenanotheruttersthemheissoothedorinfuriatedandyoumaysupposefurtherthatwhenbycontinuallyattendinguponhimhehasbecomeperfectinallthishecallshisknowledgewisdomandmakesofitasystemorartwhichheproceedstoteachalthoughhehasnorealnotionofwhathemeansbytheprinciplesorpassionsofwhichheisspeakingbutcallsthishonourableandthatdishonourableorgoodorevilorjustorunjustallinaccordancewiththetastesandtempersofthegreatbrutegoodhepronouncestobethatinwhichthebeastdelightsandeviltobethatwhichhedislikesandhecangivenootheraccountofthemexceptthatthejustandnoblearethenecessaryhavingneverhimselfseenandhavingnopowerofexplainingtoothersthenatureofeitherorthedifferencebetweenthemwhichisimmensebyheavenwouldnotsuchanonebearareeducatorindeedhewouldandinwhatwaydoeshewhothinksthatwisdomisthediscernmentofthetempersandtastesofthemotleymultitudewhetherinpaintingormusicorfinallyinpoliticsdifferfromhimwhomihavebeendescribingforwhenamanconsortswiththemanyandexhibitstothemhispoemorotherworkofartortheservicewhichhehasdonethestatemakingthemhisjudgeswhenheisnotobligedthesocallednecessityofdiomedewillobligehimtoproducewhatevertheypraiseandyetthereasonsareutterlyludicrouswhichtheygiveinconfirmationoftheirownnotionsaboutthehonourableandgooddidyoueverhearanyofthemwhichwerenotnonoramilikelytohearyourecognisethetruthofwhatihavebeensayingthenletmeaskyoutoconsiderfurtherwhethertheworldwilleverbeinducedtobelieveintheexistenceofabsolutebeautyratherthanofthemanybeautifuloroftheabsoluteineachkindratherthanofthemanyineachkindcertainlynotthentheworldcannotpossiblybeaphilosopherimpossibleandthereforephilosophersmustinevitablyfallunderthecensureoftheworldtheymustandofindividualswhoconsortwiththemobandseektopleasethemthatisevidentthendoyouseeanywayinwhichthephilosophercanbepreservedinhiscallingtotheendandrememberwhatweweresayingofhimthathewastohavequicknessandmemoryandcourageandmagnificencethesewereadmittedbyustobethetruephilosophersgiftsyeswillnotsuchanonefromhisearlychildhoodbeinallthingsfirstamongallespeciallyifhisbodilyendowmentsarelikehismentalonescertainlyhesaidandhisfriendsandfellowcitizenswillwanttousehimashegetsolderfortheirownpurposesnoquestionfallingathisfeettheywillmakerequeststohimanddohimhonourandflatterhimbecausetheywanttogetintotheirhandsnowthepowerwhichhewillonedaypossessthatoftenhappenshesaidandwhatwillamansuchasheisbelikelytodoundersuchcircumstancesespeciallyifhebeacitizenofagreatcityrichandnobleandatallproperyouthwillhenotbefullofboundlessaspirationsandfancyhimselfabletomanagetheaffairsofhellenesandofbarbariansandhavinggotsuchnotionsintohisheadwillhenotdilateandelevatehimselfinthefulnessofvainpompandsenselesspridetobesurehewillnowwhenheisinthisstateofmindifsomeonegentlycomestohimandtellshimthatheisafoolandmustgetunderstandingwhichcanonlybegotbyslavingforitdoyouthinkthatundersuchadversecircumstanceshewillbeeasilyinducedtolistenfarotherwiseandeveniftherebesomeonewhothroughinherentgoodnessornaturalreasonablenesshashadhiseyesopenedalittleandishumbledandtakencaptivebyphilosophyhowwillhisfriendsbehavewhentheythinkthattheyarelikelytolosetheadvantagewhichtheywerehopingtoreapfromhiscompanionshipwilltheynotdoandsayanythingtopreventhimfromyieldingtohisbetternatureandtorenderhisteacherpowerlessusingtothisendprivateintriguesaswellaspublicprosecutionstherecanbenodoubtofitandhowcanonewhoisthuscircumstancedeverbecomeaphilosopherimpossiblethenwerewenotrightinsayingthateventheveryqualitieswhichmakeamanaphilosophermayifhebeilleducateddiverthimfromphilosophynolessthanrichesandtheiraccompanimentsandtheothersocalledgoodsoflifewewerequiterightthusmyexcellentfriendisbroughtaboutallthatruinandfailurewhichihavebeendescribingofthenaturesbestadaptedtothebestofallpursuitstheyarenatureswhichwemaintaintoberareatanytimethisbeingtheclassoutofwhichcomethemenwhoaretheauthorsofthegreatesteviltostatesandindividualsandalsoofthegreatestgoodwhenthetidecarriestheminthatdirectionbutasmallmanneverwasthedoerofanygreatthingeithertoindividualsortostatesthatismosttruehesaidandsophilosophyisleftdesolatewithhermarriageriteincompleteforherownhavefallenawayandforsakenherandwhiletheyareleadingafalseandunbecominglifeotherunworthypersonsseeingthatshehasnokinsmentobeherprotectorsenterinanddishonourherandfastenuponherthereproacheswhichasyousayherreproversutterwhoaffirmofhervotariesthatsomearegoodfornothingandthatthegreaternumberdeservetheseverestpunishmentthatiscertainlywhatpeoplesayyesandwhatelsewouldyouexpectisaidwhenyouthinkofthepunycreatureswhoseeingthislandopentothemalandwellstockedwithfairnamesandshowytitleslikeprisonersrunningoutofprisonintoasanctuarytakealeapoutoftheirtradesintophilosophythosewhodosobeingprobablythecleveresthandsattheirownmiserablecraftsforalthoughphilosophybeinthisevilcasestillthereremainsadignityaboutherwhichisnottobefoundintheartsandmanyarethusattractedbyherwhosenaturesareimperfectandwhosesoulsaremaimedanddisfiguredbytheirmeannessesastheirbodiesarebytheirtradesandcraftsisnotthisunavoidableyesaretheynotexactlylikeabaldlittletinkerwhohasjustgotoutofduranceandcomeintoafortunehetakesabathandputsonanewcoatandisdeckedoutasabridegroomgoingtomarryhismastersdaughterwhoisleftpooranddesolateamostexactparallelwhatwillbetheissueofsuchmarriageswilltheynotbevileandbastardtherecanbenoquestionofitandwhenpersonswhoareunworthyofeducationapproachphilosophyandmakeanalliancewithherwhoisinarankabovethemwhatsortofideasandopinionsarelikelytobegeneratedwilltheynotbesophismscaptivatingtotheearhavingnothinginthemgenuineorworthyoforakintotruewisdomnodoubthesaidthenadeimantusisaidtheworthydisciplesofphilosophywillbebutasmallremnantperchancesomenobleandwelleducatedpersondetainedbyexileinherservicewhointheabsenceofcorruptinginfluencesremainsdevotedtoherorsomeloftysoulborninameancitythepoliticsofwhichhecontemnsandneglectsandtheremaybeagiftedfewwholeavetheartswhichtheyjustlydespiseandcometoherorperadventuretherearesomewhoarerestrainedbyourfriendtheagesbridleforeverythinginthelifeoftheagesconspiredtodiverthimfromphilosophybutillhealthkepthimawayfrompoliticsmyowncaseoftheinternalsignishardlyworthmentioningforrarelyifeverhassuchamonitorbeengiventoanyothermanthosewhobelongtothissmallclasshavetastedhowsweetandblessedapossessionphilosophyisandhavealsoseenenoughofthemadnessofthemultitudeandtheyknowthatnopoliticianishonestnoristhereanychampionofjusticeatwhosesidetheymayfightandbesavedsuchanonemaybecomparedtoamanwhohasfallenamongwildbeastshewillnotjoininthewickednessofhisfellowsbutneitherisheablesinglytoresistalltheirfiercenaturesandthereforeseeingthathewouldbeofnousetothestateortohisfriendsandreflectingthathewouldhavetothrowawayhislifewithoutdoinganygoodeithertohimselforothersheholdshispeaceandgoeshisownwayheislikeonewhointhestormofdustandsleetwhichthedrivingwindhurriesalongretiresundertheshelterofawallandseeingtherestofmankindfullofwickednessheiscontentifonlyhecanlivehisownlifeandbepurefromevilorunrighteousnessanddepartinpeaceandgoodwillwithbrighthopesyeshesaidandhewillhavedoneagreatworkbeforehedepartsagreatworkyesbutnotthegreatestunlesshefindastatesuitabletohimforinastatewhichissuitabletohimhewillhavealargergrowthandbethesaviourofhiscountryaswellasofhimselfthecauseswhyphilosophyisinsuchanevilnamehavenowbeensufficientlyexplainedtheinjusticeofthechargesagainstherhasbeenshownisthereanythingmorewhichyouwishtosaynothingmoreonthatsubjectherepliedbutishouldliketoknowwhichofthegovernmentsnowexistingisinyouropiniontheoneadaptedtohernotanyofthemisaidandthatispreciselytheaccusationwhichibringagainstthemnotoneofthemisworthyofthephilosophicnatureandhencethatnatureiswarpedandestrangedastheexoticseedwhichissowninaforeignlandbecomesdenaturalizedandiswonttobeoverpoweredandtoloseitselfinthenewsoilevensothisgrowthofphilosophyinsteadofpersistingdegeneratesandreceivesanothercharacterbutifphilosophyeverfindsinthestatethatperfectionwhichsheherselfisthenwillbeseenthatsheisintruthdivineandthatallotherthingswhethernaturesofmenorinstitutionsarebuthumanandnowiknowthatyouaregoingtoaskwhatthatstateisnohesaidthereyouarewrongforiwasgoingtoaskanotherquestionwhetheritisthestateofwhichwearethefoundersandinventorsorsomeotheryesirepliedoursinmostrespectsbutyoumayremembermysayingbeforethatsomelivingauthoritywouldalwaysberequiredinthestatehavingthesameideaoftheconstitutionwhichguidedyouwhenaslegislatoryouwerelayingdownthelawsthatwassaidherepliedyesbutnotinasatisfactorymanneryoufrightenedusbyinterposingobjectionswhichcertainlyshowedthatthediscussionwouldbelonganddifficultandwhatstillremainsisthereverseofeasywhatisthereremainingthequestionhowthestudyofphilosophymaybesoorderedasnottobetheruinofthestateallgreatattemptsareattendedwithriskhardisthegoodasmensaystillhesaidletthepointbeclearedupandtheenquirywillthenbecompleteishallnotbehinderedisaidbyanywantofwillbutifatallbyawantofpowermyzealyoumayseeforyourselvesandpleasetoremarkinwhatiamabouttosayhowboldlyandunhesitatinglyideclarethatstatesshouldpursuephilosophynotastheydonowbutinadifferentspiritinwhatmanneratpresentisaidthestudentsofphilosophyarequiteyoungbeginningwhentheyarehardlypastchildhoodtheydevoteonlythetimesavedfrommoneymakingandhousekeepingtosuchpursuitsandeventhoseofthemwhoarereputedtohavemostofthephilosophicspiritwhentheycomewithinsightofthegreatdifficultyofthesubjectimeandialectictakethemselvesoffinafterlifewheninvitedbysomeoneelsetheymayperhapsgoandhearalectureandaboutthistheymakemuchadoforphilosophyisnotconsideredbythemtobetheirproperbusinessatlastwhentheygrowoldinmostcasestheyareextinguishedmoretrulythanheracleitussuninasmuchastheyneverlightupagainheraclitussaidthatthesunwasextinguishedeveryeveningandrelightedeverymorningbutwhatoughttobetheircoursejusttheoppositeinchildhoodandyouththeirstudyandwhatphilosophytheylearnshouldbesuitedtotheirtenderyearsduringthisperiodwhiletheyaregrowinguptowardsmanhoodthechiefandspecialcareshouldbegiventotheirbodiesthattheymayhavethemtouseintheserviceofphilosophyaslifeadvancesandtheintellectbeginstomatureletthemincreasethegymnasticsofthesoulbutwhenthestrengthofourcitizensfailsandispastcivilandmilitarydutiesthenletthemrangeatwillandengageinnoseriouslabourasweintendthemtolivehappilyhereandtocrownthislifewithasimilarhappinessinanotherhowtrulyinearnestyouaresocrateshesaidiamsureofthatandyetmostofyourhearersifiamnotmistakenarelikelytobestillmoreearnestintheiroppositiontoyouandwillneverbeconvincedthrasymachusleastofalldonotmakeaquarrelisaidbetweenthrasymachusandmewhohaverecentlybecomefriendsalthoughindeedwewereneverenemiesforishallgoonstrivingtotheutmostuntilieitherconverthimandothermenordosomethingwhichmayprofitthemagainstthedaywhentheyliveagainandholdthelikediscourseinanotherstateofexistenceyouarespeakingofatimewhichisnotverynearratherirepliedofatimewhichisasnothingincomparisonwitheternityneverthelessidonotwonderthatthemanyrefusetobelievefortheyhaveneverseenthatofwhichwearenowspeakingrealizedtheyhaveseenonlyaconventionalimitationofphilosophyconsistingofwordsartificiallybroughttogethernotliketheseofourshavinganaturalunitybutahumanbeingwhoinwordandworkisperfectlymouldedasfarashecanbeintotheproportionandlikenessofvirtuesuchamanrulinginacitywhichbearsthesameimagetheyhaveneveryetseenneitheronenormanyofthemdoyouthinkthattheyeverdidnoindeednomyfriendandtheyhaveseldomifeverheardfreeandnoblesentimentssuchasmenutterwhentheyareearnestlyandbyeverymeansintheirpowerseekingaftertruthforthesakeofknowledgewhiletheylookcoldlyonthesubtletiesofcontroversyofwhichtheendisopinionandstrifewhethertheymeetwiththeminthecourtsoflaworinsocietytheyarestrangershesaidtothewordsofwhichyouspeakandthiswaswhatweforesawandthiswasthereasonwhytruthforcedustoadmitnotwithoutfearandhesitationthatneithercitiesnorstatesnorindividualswilleverattainperfectionuntilthesmallclassofphilosopherswhomwetermeduselessbutnotcorruptareprovidentiallycompelledwhethertheywillornottotakecareofthestateanduntilalikenecessitybelaidonthestatetoobeythemoruntilkingsorifnotkingsthesonsofkingsorprincesaredivinelyinspiredwithatrueloveoftruephilosophythateitherorbothofthesealternativesareimpossibleiseenoreasontoaffirmiftheyweresowemightindeedbejustlyridiculedasdreamersandvisionariesaminotrightquiterightiftheninthecountlessagesofthepastoratthepresenthourinsomeforeignclimewhichisfarawayandbeyondourkentheperfectedphilosopherisorhasbeenorhereaftershallbecompelledbyasuperiorpowertohavethechargeofthestatewearereadytoasserttothedeaththatthisourconstitutionhasbeenandisyeaandwillbewheneverthemuseofphilosophyisqueenthereisnoimpossibilityinallthisthatthereisadifficultyweacknowledgeourselvesmyopinionagreeswithyourshesaidbutdoyoumeantosaythatthisisnottheopinionofthemultitudeishouldimaginenotherepliedomyfriendisaiddonotattackthemultitudetheywillchangetheirmindsifnotinanaggressivespiritbutgentlyandwiththeviewofsoothingthemandremovingtheirdislikeofovereducationyoushowthemyourphilosophersastheyreallyareanddescribeasyouwerejustnowdoingtheircharacterandprofessionandthenmankindwillseethatheofwhomyouarespeakingisnotsuchastheysupposediftheyviewhiminthisnewlighttheywillsurelychangetheirnotionofhimandanswerinanotherstrainwhocanbeatenmitywithonewholovesthemwhothatishimselfgentleandfreefromenvywillbejealousofoneinwhomthereisnojealousynayletmeanswerforyouthatinafewthisharshtempermaybefoundbutnotinthemajorityofmankindiquiteagreewithyouhesaidanddoyounotalsothinkasidothattheharshfeelingwhichthemanyentertaintowardsphilosophyoriginatesinthepretenderswhorushinuninvitedandarealwaysabusingthemandfindingfaultwiththemwhomakepersonsinsteadofthingsthethemeoftheirconversationandnothingcanbemoreunbecominginphilosophersthanthisitismostunbecomingforheadeimantuswhosemindisfixedupontruebeinghassurelynotimetolookdownupontheaffairsofearthortobefilledwithmaliceandenvycontendingagainstmenhiseyeiseverdirectedtowardsthingsfixedandimmutablewhichheseesneitherinjuringnorinjuredbyoneanotherbutallinordermovingaccordingtoreasontheseheimitatesandtothesehewillasfarashecanconformhimselfcanamanhelpimitatingthatwithwhichheholdsreverentialconverseimpossibleandthephilosopherholdingconversewiththedivineorderbecomesorderlyanddivineasfarasthenatureofmanallowsbutlikeeveryoneelsehewillsufferfromdetractionofcourseandifanecessitybelaiduponhimoffashioningnotonlyhimselfbuthumannaturegenerallywhetherinstatesorindividualsintothatwhichhebeholdselsewherewillhethinkyoubeanunskilfulartificerofjusticetemperanceandeverycivilvirtueanythingbutunskilfulandiftheworldperceivesthatwhatwearesayingabouthimisthetruthwilltheybeangrywithphilosophywilltheydisbelieveuswhenwetellthemthatnostatecanbehappywhichisnotdesignedbyartistswhoimitatetheheavenlypatterntheywillnotbeangryiftheyunderstandhesaidbuthowwilltheydrawouttheplanofwhichyouarespeakingtheywillbeginbytakingthestateandthemannersofmenfromwhichasfromatablettheywillruboutthepictureandleaveacleansurfacethisisnoeasytaskbutwhethereasyornothereinwillliethedifferencebetweenthemandeveryotherlegislatortheywillhavenothingtodoeitherwithindividualorstateandwillinscribenolawsuntiltheyhaveeitherfoundorthemselvesmadeacleansurfacetheywillbeveryrighthesaidhavingeffectedthistheywillproceedtotraceanoutlineoftheconstitutionnodoubtandwhentheyarefillingintheworkasiconceivetheywilloftenturntheireyesupwardsanddownwardsimeanthattheywillfirstlookatabsolutejusticeandbeautyandtemperanceandagainatthehumancopyandwillmingleandtemperthevariouselementsoflifeintotheimageofamanandthistheywillconceiveaccordingtothatotherimagewhichwhenexistingamongmenhomercallstheformandlikenessofgodverytruehesaidandonefeaturetheywilleraseandanothertheywillputinuntiltheyhavemadethewaysofmenasfaraspossibleagreeabletothewaysofgodindeedhesaidinnowaycouldtheymakeafairerpictureandnowisaidarewebeginningtopersuadethosewhomyoudescribedasrushingatuswithmightandmainthatthepainterofconstitutionsissuchanoneaswearepraisingatwhomtheyweresoveryindignantbecausetohishandswecommittedthestateandaretheygrowingalittlecalmeratwhattheyhavejustheardmuchcalmerifthereisanysenseinthemwhywherecantheystillfindanygroundforobjectionwilltheydoubtthatthephilosopherisaloveroftruthandbeingtheywouldnotbesounreasonableorthathisnaturebeingsuchaswehavedelineatedisakintothehighestgoodneithercantheydoubtthisbutagainwilltheytellusthatsuchanatureplacedunderfavourablecircumstanceswillnotbeperfectlygoodandwiseifanyeverwasorwilltheypreferthosewhomwehaverejectedsurelynotthenwilltheystillbeangryatoursayingthatuntilphilosophersbearrulestatesandindividualswillhavenorestfromevilnorwillthisourimaginarystateeverberealizedithinkthattheywillbelessangryshallweassumethattheyarenotonlylessangrybutquitegentleandthattheyhavebeenconvertedandforveryshameiffornootherreasoncannotrefusetocometotermsbyallmeanshesaidthenletussupposethatthereconciliationhasbeeneffectedwillanyonedenytheotherpointthattheremaybesonsofkingsorprinceswhoarebynaturephilosopherssurelynomanhesaidandwhentheyhavecomeintobeingwillanyonesaythattheymustofnecessitybedestroyedthattheycanhardlybesavedisnotdeniedevenbyusbutthatinthewholecourseofagesnosingleoneofthemcanescapewhowillventuretoaffirmthiswhoindeedbutsaidioneisenoughlettherebeonemanwhohasacityobedienttohiswillandhemightbringintoexistencetheidealpolityaboutwhichtheworldissoincredulousyesoneisenoughtherulermayimposethelawsandinstitutionswhichwehavebeendescribingandthecitizensmaypossiblybewillingtoobeythemcertainlyandthatothersshouldapproveofwhatweapproveisnomiracleorimpossibilityithinknotbutwehavesufficientlyshowninwhathasprecededthatallthisifonlypossibleisassuredlyforthebestwehaveandnowwesaynotonlythatourlawsiftheycouldbeenactedwouldbeforthebestbutalsothattheenactmentofthemthoughdifficultisnotimpossibleverygoodandsowithpainandtoilwehavereachedtheendofonesubjectbutmoreremainstobediscussedhowandbywhatstudiesandpursuitswillthesavioursoftheconstitutionbecreatedandatwhatagesaretheytoapplythemselvestotheirseveralstudiescertainlyiomittedthetroublesomebusinessofthepossessionofwomenandtheprocreationofchildrenandtheappointmentoftherulersbecauseiknewthattheperfectstatewouldbeeyedwithjealousyandwasdifficultofattainmentbutthatpieceofclevernesswasnotofmuchservicetomeforihadtodiscussthemallthesamethewomenandchildrenarenowdisposedofbuttheotherquestionoftherulersmustbeinvestigatedfromtheverybeginningweweresayingasyouwillrememberthattheyweretobeloversoftheircountrytriedbythetestofpleasuresandpainsandneitherinhardshipsnorindangersnoratanyothercriticalmomentweretolosetheirpatriotismhewastoberejectedwhofailedbuthewhoalwayscameforthpurelikegoldtriedintherefinersfirewastobemadearulerandtoreceivehonoursandrewardsinlifeandafterdeaththiswasthesortofthingwhichwasbeingsaidandthentheargumentturnedasideandveiledherfacenotlikingtostirthequestionwhichhasnowariseniperfectlyrememberhesaidyesmyfriendisaidandithenshrankfromhazardingtheboldwordbutnowletmedaretosaythattheperfectguardianmustbeaphilosopheryeshesaidletthatbeaffirmedanddonotsupposethattherewillbemanyofthemforthegiftswhichweredeemedbyustobeessentialrarelygrowtogethertheyaremostlyfoundinshredsandpatcheswhatdoyoumeanhesaidyouareawareirepliedthatquickintelligencememorysagacityclevernessandsimilarqualitiesdonotoftengrowtogetherandthatpersonswhopossessthemandareatthesametimehighspiritedandmagnanimousarenotsoconstitutedbynatureastoliveorderlyandinapeacefulandsettledmannertheyaredrivenanywaybytheirimpulsesandallsolidprinciplegoesoutofthemverytruehesaidontheotherhandthosesteadfastnatureswhichcanbetterbedependeduponwhichinabattleareimpregnabletofearandimmovableareequallyimmovablewhenthereisanythingtobelearnedtheyarealwaysinatorpidstateandareapttoyawnandgotosleepoveranyintellectualtoilquitetrueandyetweweresayingthatbothqualitieswerenecessaryinthosetowhomthehighereducationistobeimpartedandwhoaretoshareinanyofficeorcommandcertainlyhesaidandwilltheybeaclasswhichisrarelyfoundyesindeedthentheaspirantmustnotonlybetestedinthoselaboursanddangersandpleasureswhichwementionedbeforebutthereisanotherkindofprobationwhichwedidnotmentionhemustbeexercisedalsoinmanykindsofknowledgetoseewhetherthesoulwillbeabletoendurethehighestofallorwillfaintunderthemasinanyotherstudiesandexercisesyeshesaidyouarequiterightintestinghimbutwhatdoyoumeanbythehighestofallknowledgeyoumayrememberisaidthatwedividedthesoulintothreepartsanddistinguishedtheseveralnaturesofjusticetemperancecourageandwisdomindeedhesaidifihadforgottenishouldnotdeservetohearmoreanddoyourememberthewordofcautionwhichprecededthediscussionofthemtowhatdoyoureferweweresayingifiamnotmistakenthathewhowantedtoseethemintheirperfectbeautymusttakealongerandmorecircuitouswayattheendofwhichtheywouldappearbutthatwecouldaddonapopularexpositionofthemonalevelwiththediscussionwhichhadprecededandyourepliedthatsuchanexpositionwouldbeenoughforyouandsotheenquirywascontinuedinwhattomeseemedtobeaveryinaccuratemannerwhetheryouweresatisfiedornotitisforyoutosayyeshesaidithoughtandtheothersthoughtthatyougaveusafairmeasureoftruthbutmyfriendisaidameasureofsuchthingswhichinanydegreefallsshortofthewholetruthisnotfairmeasurefornothingimperfectisthemeasureofanythingalthoughpersonsaretooapttobecontentedandthinkthattheyneedsearchnofurthernotanuncommoncasewhenpeopleareindolentyesisaidandtherecannotbeanyworsefaultinaguardianofthestateandofthelawstruetheguardianthenisaidmustberequiredtotakethelongercircuitandtoilatlearningaswellasatgymnasticsorhewillneverreachthehighestknowledgeofallwhichaswewerejustnowsayingishispropercallingwhathesaidisthereaknowledgestillhigherthanthishigherthanjusticeandtheothervirtuesyesisaidthereisandofthevirtuestoowemustbeholdnottheoutlinemerelyasatpresentnothingshortofthemostfinishedpictureshouldsatisfyuswhenlittlethingsareelaboratedwithaninfinityofpainsinorderthattheymayappearintheirfullbeautyandutmostclearnesshowridiculousthatweshouldnotthinkthehighesttruthsworthyofattainingthehighestaccuracyarightnoblethoughtbutdoyousupposethatweshallrefrainfromaskingyouwhatisthishighestknowledgenayisaidaskifyouwillbutiamcertainthatyouhaveheardtheanswermanytimesandnowyoueitherdonotunderstandmeorasiratherthinkyouaredisposedtobetroublesomeforyouhaveoftenbeentoldthattheideaofgoodisthehighestknowledgeandthatallotherthingsbecomeusefulandadvantageousonlybytheiruseofthisyoucanhardlybeignorantthatofthisiwasabouttospeakconcerningwhichasyouhaveoftenheardmesayweknowsolittleandwithoutwhichanyotherknowledgeorpossessionofanykindwillprofitusnothingdoyouthinkthatthepossessionofallotherthingsisofanyvalueifwedonotpossessthegoodortheknowledgeofallotherthingsifwehavenoknowledgeofbeautyandgoodnessassuredlynotyouarefurtherawarethatmostpeopleaffirmpleasuretobethegoodbutthefinersortofwitssayitisknowledgeyesandyouareawaretoothatthelattercannotexplainwhattheymeanbyknowledgebutareobligedafteralltosayknowledgeofthegoodhowridiculousyesisaidthattheyshouldbeginbyreproachinguswithourignoranceofthegoodandthenpresumeourknowledgeofitforthegoodtheydefinetobeknowledgeofthegoodjustasifweunderstoodthemwhentheyusethetermgoodthisisofcourseridiculousmosttruehesaidandthosewhomakepleasuretheirgoodareinequalperplexityfortheyarecompelledtoadmitthattherearebadpleasuresaswellasgoodcertainlyandthereforetoacknowledgethatbadandgoodarethesametruetherecanbenodoubtaboutthenumerousdifficultiesinwhichthisquestionisinvolvedtherecanbenonefurtherdowenotseethatmanyarewillingtodoortohaveortoseemtobewhatisjustandhonourablewithouttherealitybutnooneissatisfiedwiththeappearanceofgoodtherealityiswhattheyseekinthecaseofthegoodappearanceisdespisedbyeveryoneverytruehesaidofthisthenwhicheverysoulofmanpursuesandmakestheendofallhisactionshavingapresentimentthatthereissuchanendandyethesitatingbecauseneitherknowingthenaturenorhavingthesameassuranceofthisasofotherthingsandthereforelosingwhatevergoodthereisinotherthingsofaprinciplesuchandsogreatasthisoughtthebestmeninourstatetowhomeverythingisentrustedtobeinthedarknessofignorancecertainlynothesaidiamsureisaidthathewhodoesnotknowhowthebeautifulandthejustarelikewisegoodwillbebutasorryguardianofthemandisuspectthatnoonewhoisignorantofthegoodwillhaveatrueknowledgeofthemthathesaidisashrewdsuspicionofyoursandifweonlyhaveaguardianwhohasthisknowledgeourstatewillbeperfectlyorderedofcourseherepliedbutiwishthatyouwouldtellmewhetheryouconceivethissupremeprincipleofthegoodtobeknowledgeorpleasureordifferentfromeitherayeisaidiknewallalongthatafastidiousgentlemanlikeyouwouldnotbecontentedwiththethoughtsofotherpeopleaboutthesematterstruesocratesbutimustsaythatonewholikeyouhaspassedalifetimeinthestudyofphilosophyshouldnotbealwaysrepeatingtheopinionsofothersandnevertellinghisownwellbuthasanyonearighttosaypositivelywhathedoesnotknownothesaidwiththeassuranceofpositivecertaintyhehasnorighttodothatbuthemaysaywhathethinksasamatterofopinionanddoyounotknowisaidthatallmereopinionsarebadandthebestofthemblindyouwouldnotdenythatthosewhohaveanytruenotionwithoutintelligenceareonlylikeblindmenwhofeeltheirwayalongtheroadverytrueanddoyouwishtobeholdwhatisblindandcrookedandbasewhenotherswilltellyouofbrightnessandbeautystillimustimploreyousocratessaidglauconnottoturnawayjustasyouarereachingthegoalifyouwillonlygivesuchanexplanationofthegoodasyouhavealreadygivenofjusticeandtemperanceandtheothervirtuesweshallbesatisfiedyesmyfriendandishallbeatleastequallysatisfiedbuticannothelpfearingthatishallfailandthatmyindiscreetzealwillbringridiculeuponmenosweetsirsletusnotatpresentaskwhatistheactualnatureofthegoodfortoreachwhatisnowinmythoughtswouldbeanefforttoogreatformebutofthechildofthegoodwhoislikesthimiwouldfainspeakificouldbesurethatyouwishedtohearotherwisenotbyallmeanshesaidtellusaboutthechildandyoushallremaininourdebtfortheaccountoftheparentidoindeedwishirepliedthaticouldpayandyoureceivetheaccountoftheparentandnotasnowoftheoffspringonlytakehoweverthislatterbywayofinterestandatthesametimehaveacarethatidonotrenderafalseaccountalthoughihavenointentionofdeceivingyouyeswewilltakeallthecarethatwecanproceedyesisaidbutimustfirstcometoanunderstandingwithyouandremindyouofwhatihavementionedinthecourseofthisdiscussionandatmanyothertimeswhattheoldstorythatthereisamanybeautifulandamanygoodandsoofotherthingswhichwedescribeanddefinetoallofthemthetermmanyisappliedtruehesaidandthereisanabsolutebeautyandanabsolutegoodandofotherthingstowhichthetermmanyisappliedthereisanabsolutefortheymaybebroughtunderasingleideawhichiscalledtheessenceofeachverytruethemanyaswesayareseenbutnotknownandtheideasareknownbutnotseenexactlyandwhatistheorganwithwhichweseethevisiblethingsthesighthesaidandwiththehearingisaidwehearandwiththeothersensesperceivetheotherobjectsofsensetruebuthaveyouremarkedthatsightisbyfarthemostcostlyandcomplexpieceofworkmanshipwhichtheartificerofthesensesevercontrivednoineverhavehesaidthenreflecthastheearorvoiceneedofanythirdoradditionalnatureinorderthattheonemaybeabletohearandtheothertobeheardnothingofthesortnoindeedirepliedandthesameistrueofmostifnotalltheothersensesyouwouldnotsaythatanyofthemrequiressuchanadditioncertainlynotbutyouseethatwithouttheadditionofsomeothernaturethereisnoseeingorbeingseenhowdoyoumeansightbeingasiconceiveintheeyesandhewhohaseyeswantingtoseecolourbeingalsopresentinthemstillunlesstherebeathirdnaturespeciallyadaptedtothepurposetheowneroftheeyeswillseenothingandthecolourswillbeinvisibleofwhatnatureareyouspeakingofthatwhichyoutermlightirepliedtruehesaidnoblethenisthebondwhichlinkstogethersightandvisibilityandgreatbeyondotherbondsbynosmalldifferenceofnatureforlightistheirbondandlightisnoignoblethingnayhesaidthereverseofignobleandwhichisaidofthegodsinheavenwouldyousaywasthelordofthiselementwhoseisthatlightwhichmakestheeyetoseeperfectlyandthevisibletoappearyoumeanthesunasyouandallmankindsaymaynottherelationofsighttothisdeitybedescribedasfollowshowneithersightnortheeyeinwhichsightresidesisthesunnoyetofalltheorgansofsensetheeyeisthemostlikethesunbyfarthemostlikeandthepowerwhichtheeyepossessesisasortofeffluencewhichisdispensedfromthesunexactlythenthesunisnotsightbuttheauthorofsightwhoisrecognisedbysighttruehesaidandthisishewhomicallthechildofthegoodwhomthegoodbegatinhisownlikenesstobeinthevisibleworldinrelationtosightandthethingsofsightwhatthegoodisintheintellectualworldinrelationtomindandthethingsofmindwillyoubealittlemoreexplicithesaidwhyyouknowisaidthattheeyeswhenapersondirectsthemtowardsobjectsonwhichthelightofdayisnolongershiningbutthemoonandstarsonlyseedimlyandarenearlyblindtheyseemtohavenoclearnessofvisioninthemverytruebutwhentheyaredirectedtowardsobjectsonwhichthesunshinestheyseeclearlyandthereissightinthemcertainlyandthesoulisliketheeyewhenrestinguponthatonwhichtruthandbeingshinethesoulperceivesandunderstandsandisradiantwithintelligencebutwhenturnedtowardsthetwilightofbecomingandperishingthenshehasopiniononlyandgoesblinkingaboutandisfirstofoneopinionandthenofanotherandseemstohavenointelligencejustsonowthatwhichimpartstruthtotheknownandthepowerofknowingtotheknoweriswhatiwouldhaveyoutermtheideaofgoodandthisyouwilldeemtobethecauseofscienceandoftruthinsofarasthelatterbecomesthesubjectofknowledgebeautifultooasarebothtruthandknowledgeyouwillberightinesteemingthisothernatureasmorebeautifulthaneitherandasinthepreviousinstancelightandsightmaybetrulysaidtobelikethesunandyetnottobethesunsointhisotherspherescienceandtruthmaybedeemedtobelikethegoodbutnotthegoodthegoodhasaplaceofhonouryethigherwhatawonderofbeautythatmustbehesaidwhichistheauthorofscienceandtruthandyetsurpassestheminbeautyforyousurelycannotmeantosaythatpleasureisthegoodgodforbidirepliedbutmayiaskyoutoconsidertheimageinanotherpointofviewinwhatpointofviewyouwouldsaywouldyounotthatthesunisnotonlytheauthorofvisibilityinallvisiblethingsbutofgenerationandnourishmentandgrowththoughhehimselfisnotgenerationcertainlyinlikemannerthegoodmaybesaidtobenotonlytheauthorofknowledgetoallthingsknownbutoftheirbeingandessenceandyetthegoodisnotessencebutfarexceedsessenceindignityandpowerglauconsaidwithaludicrousearnestnessbythelightofheavenhowamazingyesisaidandtheexaggerationmaybesetdowntoyouforyoumademeuttermyfanciesandpraycontinuetoutterthematanyrateletushearifthereisanythingmoretobesaidaboutthesimilitudeofthesunyesisaidthereisagreatdealmorethenomitnothinghoweverslightiwilldomybestisaidbutishouldthinkthatagreatdealwillhavetobeomittedihopenothesaidyouhavetoimaginethenthattherearetworulingpowersandthatoneofthemissetovertheintellectualworldtheotheroverthevisibleidonotsayheavenlestyoushouldfancythatiamplayinguponthenameourhanozorhatozmayisupposethatyouhavethisdistinctionofthevisibleandintelligiblefixedinyourmindihavenowtakealinewhichhasbeencutintotwounequalpartsanddivideeachofthemagaininthesameproportionandsupposethetwomaindivisionstoansweronetothevisibleandtheothertotheintelligibleandthencomparethesubdivisionsinrespectoftheirclearnessandwantofclearnessandyouwillfindthatthefirstsectioninthesphereofthevisibleconsistsofimagesandbyimagesimeaninthefirstplaceshadowsandinthesecondplacereflectionsinwaterandinsolidsmoothandpolishedbodiesandthelikedoyouunderstandyesiunderstandimaginenowtheothersectionofwhichthisisonlytheresemblancetoincludetheanimalswhichweseeandeverythingthatgrowsorismadeverygoodwouldyounotadmitthatboththesectionsofthisdivisionhavedifferentdegreesoftruthandthatthecopyistotheoriginalasthesphereofopinionistothesphereofknowledgemostundoubtedlynextproceedtoconsiderthemannerinwhichthesphereoftheintellectualistobedividedinwhatmannerthustherearetwosubdivisionsinthelowerofwhichthesoulusesthefiguresgivenbytheformerdivisionasimagestheenquirycanonlybehypotheticalandinsteadofgoingupwardstoaprincipledescendstotheotherendinthehigherofthetwothesoulpassesoutofhypothesesandgoesuptoaprinciplewhichisabovehypothesesmakingnouseofimagesasintheformercasebutproceedingonlyinandthroughtheideasthemselvesidonotquiteunderstandyourmeaninghesaidtheniwilltryagainyouwillunderstandmebetterwhenihavemadesomepreliminaryremarksyouareawarethatstudentsofgeometryarithmeticandthekindredsciencesassumetheoddandtheevenandthefiguresandthreekindsofanglesandthelikeintheirseveralbranchesofsciencethesearetheirhypotheseswhichtheyandeverybodyaresupposedtoknowandthereforetheydonotdeigntogiveanyaccountofthemeithertothemselvesorothersbuttheybeginwiththemandgoonuntiltheyarriveatlastandinaconsistentmannerattheirconclusionyeshesaidiknowanddoyounotknowalsothatalthoughtheymakeuseofthevisibleformsandreasonaboutthemtheyarethinkingnotofthesebutoftheidealswhichtheyresemblenotofthefigureswhichtheydrawbutoftheabsolutesquareandtheabsolutediameterandsoontheformswhichtheydrawormakeandwhichhaveshadowsandreflectionsinwateroftheirownareconvertedbythemintoimagesbuttheyarereallyseekingtobeholdthethingsthemselveswhichcanonlybeseenwiththeeyeofthemindthatistrueandofthiskindispokeastheintelligiblealthoughinthesearchafteritthesouliscompelledtousehypothesesnotascendingtoafirstprinciplebecausesheisunabletoriseabovetheregionofhypothesisbutemployingtheobjectsofwhichtheshadowsbelowareresemblancesintheirturnasimagestheyhavinginrelationtotheshadowsandreflectionsofthemagreaterdistinctnessandthereforeahighervalueiunderstandhesaidthatyouarespeakingoftheprovinceofgeometryandthesisterartsandwhenispeakoftheotherdivisionoftheintelligibleyouwillunderstandmetospeakofthatothersortofknowledgewhichreasonherselfattainsbythepowerofdialecticusingthehypothesesnotasfirstprinciplesbutonlyashypothesesthatistosayasstepsandpointsofdepartureintoaworldwhichisabovehypothesesinorderthatshemaysoarbeyondthemtothefirstprincipleofthewholeandclingingtothisandthentothatwhichdependsonthisbysuccessivestepsshedescendsagainwithouttheaidofanysensibleobjectfromideasthroughideasandinideassheendsiunderstandyouherepliednotperfectlyforyouseemtometobedescribingataskwhichisreallytremendousbutatanyrateiunderstandyoutosaythatknowledgeandbeingwhichthescienceofdialecticcontemplatesareclearerthanthenotionsoftheartsastheyaretermedwhichproceedfromhypothesesonlythesearealsocontemplatedbytheunderstandingandnotbythesensesyetbecausetheystartfromhypothesesanddonotascendtoaprinciplethosewhocontemplatethemappeartoyounottoexercisethehigherreasonuponthemalthoughwhenafirstprincipleisaddedtothemtheyarecognizablebythehigherreasonandthehabitwhichisconcernedwithgeometryandthecognatesciencesisupposethatyouwouldtermunderstandingandnotreasonasbeingintermediatebetweenopinionandreasonyouhavequiteconceivedmymeaningisaidandnowcorrespondingtothesefourdivisionslettherebefourfacultiesinthesoulreasonansweringtothehighestunderstandingtothesecondfaithorconvictiontothethirdandperceptionofshadowstothelastandlettherebeascaleofthemandletussupposethattheseveralfacultieshaveclearnessinthesamedegreethattheirobjectshavetruthiunderstandherepliedandgivemyassentandacceptyourarrangementbookviiandnowisaidletmeshowinafigurehowfarournatureisenlightenedorunenlightenedbeholdhumanbeingslivinginaundergrounddenwhichhasamouthopentowardsthelightandreachingallalongthedenheretheyhavebeenfromtheirchildhoodandhavetheirlegsandneckschainedsothattheycannotmoveandcanonlyseebeforethembeingpreventedbythechainsfromturningroundtheirheadsaboveandbehindthemafireisblazingatadistanceandbetweenthefireandtheprisonersthereisaraisedwayandyouwillseeifyoulookalowwallbuiltalongthewaylikethescreenwhichmarionetteplayershaveinfrontofthemoverwhichtheyshowthepuppetsiseeanddoyouseeisaidmenpassingalongthewallcarryingallsortsofvesselsandstatuesandfiguresofanimalsmadeofwoodandstoneandvariousmaterialswhichappearoverthewallsomeofthemaretalkingotherssilentyouhaveshownmeastrangeimageandtheyarestrangeprisonerslikeourselvesirepliedandtheyseeonlytheirownshadowsortheshadowsofoneanotherwhichthefirethrowsontheoppositewallofthecavetruehesaidhowcouldtheyseeanythingbuttheshadowsiftheywereneverallowedtomovetheirheadsandoftheobjectswhicharebeingcarriedinlikemannertheywouldonlyseetheshadowsyeshesaidandiftheywereabletoconversewithoneanotherwouldtheynotsupposethattheywerenamingwhatwasactuallybeforethemverytrueandsupposefurtherthattheprisonhadanechowhichcamefromtheothersidewouldtheynotbesuretofancywhenoneofthepassersbyspokethatthevoicewhichtheyheardcamefromthepassingshadownoquestionherepliedtothemisaidthetruthwouldbeliterallynothingbuttheshadowsoftheimagesthatiscertainandnowlookagainandseewhatwillnaturallyfollowiftheprisonersarereleasedanddisabusedoftheirerroratfirstwhenanyofthemisliberatedandcompelledsuddenlytostandupandturnhisneckroundandwalkandlooktowardsthelighthewillsuffersharppainstheglarewilldistresshimandhewillbeunabletoseetherealitiesofwhichinhisformerstatehehadseentheshadowsandthenconceivesomeonesayingtohimthatwhathesawbeforewasanillusionbutthatnowwhenheisapproachingnearertobeingandhiseyeisturnedtowardsmorerealexistencehehasaclearervisionwhatwillbehisreplyandyoumayfurtherimaginethathisinstructorispointingtotheobjectsastheypassandrequiringhimtonamethemwillhenotbeperplexedwillhenotfancythattheshadowswhichheformerlysawaretruerthantheobjectswhicharenowshowntohimfartruerandifheiscompelledtolookstraightatthelightwillhenothaveapaininhiseyeswhichwillmakehimturnawaytotakerefugeintheobjectsofvisionwhichhecanseeandwhichhewillconceivetobeinrealityclearerthanthethingswhicharenowbeingshowntohimtruehesaidandsupposeoncemorethatheisreluctantlydraggedupasteepandruggedascentandheldfastuntilheisforcedintothepresenceofthesunhimselfishenotlikelytobepainedandirritatedwhenheapproachesthelighthiseyeswillbedazzledandhewillnotbeabletoseeanythingatallofwhatarenowcalledrealitiesnotallinamomenthesaidhewillrequiretogrowaccustomedtothesightoftheupperworldandfirsthewillseetheshadowsbestnextthereflectionsofmenandotherobjectsinthewaterandthentheobjectsthemselvesthenhewillgazeuponthelightofthemoonandthestarsandthespangledheavenandhewillseetheskyandthestarsbynightbetterthanthesunorthelightofthesunbydaycertainlylastofallhewillbeabletoseethesunandnotmerereflectionsofhiminthewaterbuthewillseehiminhisownproperplaceandnotinanotherandhewillcontemplatehimasheiscertainlyhewillthenproceedtoarguethatthisishewhogivestheseasonandtheyearsandistheguardianofallthatisinthevisibleworldandinacertainwaythecauseofallthingswhichheandhisfellowshavebeenaccustomedtobeholdclearlyhesaidhewouldfirstseethesunandthenreasonabouthimandwhenherememberedhisoldhabitationandthewisdomofthedenandhisfellowprisonersdoyounotsupposethathewouldfelicitatehimselfonthechangeandpitythemcertainlyhewouldandiftheywereinthehabitofconferringhonoursamongthemselvesonthosewhowerequickesttoobservethepassingshadowsandtoremarkwhichofthemwentbeforeandwhichfollowedafterandwhichweretogetherandwhowerethereforebestabletodrawconclusionsastothefuturedoyouthinkthathewouldcareforsuchhonoursandgloriesorenvythepossessorsofthemwouldhenotsaywithhomerbettertobethepoorservantofapoormasterandtoendureanythingratherthanthinkastheydoandliveaftertheirmanneryeshesaidithinkthathewouldrathersufferanythingthanentertainthesefalsenotionsandliveinthismiserablemannerimagineoncemoreisaidsuchanonecomingsuddenlyoutofthesuntobereplacedinhisoldsituationwouldhenotbecertaintohavehiseyesfullofdarknesstobesurehesaidandiftherewereacontestandhehadtocompeteinmeasuringtheshadowswiththeprisonerswhohadnevermovedoutofthedenwhilehissightwasstillweakandbeforehiseyeshadbecomesteadyandthetimewhichwouldbeneededtoacquirethisnewhabitofsightmightbeveryconsiderablewouldhenotberidiculousmenwouldsayofhimthatuphewentanddownhecamewithouthiseyesandthatitwasbetternoteventothinkofascendingandifanyonetriedtolooseanotherandleadhimuptothelightletthemonlycatchtheoffenderandtheywouldputhimtodeathnoquestionhesaidthisentireallegoryisaidyoumaynowappenddearglaucontothepreviousargumenttheprisonhouseistheworldofsightthelightofthefireisthesunandyouwillnotmisapprehendmeifyouinterpretthejourneyupwardstobetheascentofthesoulintotheintellectualworldaccordingtomypoorbeliefwhichatyourdesireihaveexpressedwhetherrightlyorwronglygodknowsbutwhethertrueorfalsemyopinionisthatintheworldofknowledgetheideaofgoodappearslastofallandisseenonlywithaneffortandwhenseenisalsoinferredtobetheuniversalauthorofallthingsbeautifulandrightparentoflightandofthelordoflightinthisvisibleworldandtheimmediatesourceofreasonandtruthintheintellectualandthatthisisthepoweruponwhichhewhowouldactrationallyeitherinpublicorprivatelifemusthavehiseyefixediagreehesaidasfarasiamabletounderstandyoumoreoverisaidyoumustnotwonderthatthosewhoattaintothisbeatificvisionareunwillingtodescendtohumanaffairsfortheirsoulsareeverhasteningintotheupperworldwheretheydesiretodwellwhichdesireoftheirsisverynaturalifourallegorymaybetrustedyesverynaturalandisthereanythingsurprisinginonewhopassesfromdivinecontemplationstotheevilstateofmanmisbehavinghimselfinaridiculousmannerifwhilehiseyesareblinkingandbeforehehasbecomeaccustomedtothesurroundingdarknessheiscompelledtofightincourtsoflaworinotherplacesabouttheimagesortheshadowsofimagesofjusticeandisendeavouringtomeettheconceptionsofthosewhohaveneveryetseenabsolutejusticeanythingbutsurprisingherepliedanyonewhohascommonsensewillrememberthatthebewildermentsoftheeyesareoftwokindsandarisefromtwocauseseitherfromcomingoutofthelightorfromgoingintothelightwhichistrueofthemindseyequiteasmuchasofthebodilyeyeandhewhoremembersthiswhenheseesanyonewhosevisionisperplexedandweakwillnotbetooreadytolaughhewillfirstaskwhetherthatsoulofmanhascomeoutofthebrighterlifeandisunabletoseebecauseunaccustomedtothedarkorhavingturnedfromdarknesstothedayisdazzledbyexcessoflightandhewillcounttheonehappyinhisconditionandstateofbeingandhewillpitytheotherorifhehaveamindtolaughatthesoulwhichcomesfrombelowintothelighttherewillbemorereasoninthisthaninthelaughwhichgreetshimwhoreturnsfromaboveoutofthelightintothedenthathesaidisaveryjustdistinctionbutthenifiamrightcertainprofessorsofeducationmustbewrongwhentheysaythattheycanputaknowledgeintothesoulwhichwasnottherebeforelikesightintoblindeyestheyundoubtedlysaythisherepliedwhereasourargumentshowsthatthepowerandcapacityoflearningexistsinthesoulalreadyandthatjustastheeyewasunabletoturnfromdarknesstolightwithoutthewholebodysotootheinstrumentofknowledgecanonlybythemovementofthewholesoulbeturnedfromtheworldofbecomingintothatofbeingandlearnbydegreestoendurethesightofbeingandofthebrightestandbestofbeingorinotherwordsofthegoodverytrueandmusttherenotbesomeartwhichwilleffectconversionintheeasiestandquickestmannernotimplantingthefacultyofsightforthatexistsalreadybuthasbeenturnedinthewrongdirectionandislookingawayfromthetruthyeshesaidsuchanartmaybepresumedandwhereastheothersocalledvirtuesofthesoulseemtobeakintobodilyqualitiesforevenwhentheyarenotoriginallyinnatetheycanbeimplantedlaterbyhabitandexercisethevirtueofwisdommorethananythingelsecontainsadivineelementwhichalwaysremainsandbythisconversionisrenderedusefulandprofitableorontheotherhandhurtfulanduselessdidyouneverobservethenarrowintelligenceflashingfromthekeeneyeofacleverroguehoweagerheishowclearlyhispaltrysoulseesthewaytohisendheisthereverseofblindbuthiskeeneyesightisforcedintotheserviceofevilandheismischievousinproportiontohisclevernessverytruehesaidbutwhatiftherehadbeenacircumcisionofsuchnaturesinthedaysoftheiryouthandtheyhadbeenseveredfromthosesensualpleasuressuchaseatinganddrinkingwhichlikeleadenweightswereattachedtothemattheirbirthandwhichdragthemdownandturnthevisionoftheirsoulsuponthethingsthatarebelowifisaytheyhadbeenreleasedfromtheseimpedimentsandturnedintheoppositedirectiontheverysamefacultyinthemwouldhaveseenthetruthaskeenlyastheyseewhattheireyesareturnedtonowverylikelyyesisaidandthereisanotherthingwhichislikelyorratheranecessaryinferencefromwhathasprecededthatneithertheuneducatedanduninformedofthetruthnoryetthosewhonevermakeanendoftheireducationwillbeableministersofstatenottheformerbecausetheyhavenosingleaimofdutywhichistheruleofalltheiractionsprivateaswellaspublicnorthelatterbecausetheywillnotactatallexceptuponcompulsionfancyingthattheyarealreadydwellingapartintheislandsoftheblestverytrueherepliedthenisaidthebusinessofuswhoarethefoundersofthestatewillbetocompelthebestmindstoattainthatknowledgewhichwehavealreadyshowntobethegreatestofalltheymustcontinuetoascenduntiltheyarriveatthegoodbutwhentheyhaveascendedandseenenoughwemustnotallowthemtodoastheydonowwhatdoyoumeanimeanthattheyremainintheupperworldbutthismustnotbeallowedtheymustbemadetodescendagainamongtheprisonersinthedenandpartakeoftheirlaboursandhonourswhethertheyareworthhavingornotbutisnotthisunjusthesaidoughtwetogivethemaworselifewhentheymighthaveabetteryouhaveagainforgottenmyfriendisaidtheintentionofthelegislatorwhodidnotaimatmakinganyoneclassinthestatehappyabovetherestthehappinesswastobeinthewholestateandheheldthecitizenstogetherbypersuasionandnecessitymakingthembenefactorsofthestateandthereforebenefactorsofoneanothertothisendhecreatedthemnottopleasethemselvesbuttobehisinstrumentsinbindingupthestatetruehesaidihadforgottenobserveglauconthattherewillbenoinjusticeincompellingourphilosopherstohaveacareandprovidenceofothersweshallexplaintothemthatinotherstatesmenoftheirclassarenotobligedtoshareinthetoilsofpoliticsandthisisreasonablefortheygrowupattheirownsweetwillandthegovernmentwouldrathernothavethembeingselftaughttheycannotbeexpectedtoshowanygratitudeforaculturewhichtheyhaveneverreceivedbutwehavebroughtyouintotheworldtoberulersofthehivekingsofyourselvesandoftheothercitizensandhaveeducatedyoufarbetterandmoreperfectlythantheyhavebeeneducatedandyouarebetterabletoshareinthedoubledutywhereforeeachofyouwhenhisturncomesmustgodowntothegeneralundergroundabodeandgetthehabitofseeinginthedarkwhenyouhaveacquiredthehabityouwillseetenthousandtimesbetterthantheinhabitantsofthedenandyouwillknowwhattheseveralimagesareandwhattheyrepresentbecauseyouhaveseenthebeautifulandjustandgoodintheirtruthandthusourstatewhichisalsoyourswillbearealityandnotadreamonlyandwillbeadministeredinaspiritunlikethatofotherstatesinwhichmenfightwithoneanotheraboutshadowsonlyandaredistractedinthestruggleforpowerwhichintheireyesisagreatgoodwhereasthetruthisthatthestateinwhichtherulersaremostreluctanttogovernisalwaysthebestandmostquietlygovernedandthestateinwhichtheyaremosteagertheworstquitetrueherepliedandwillourpupilswhentheyhearthisrefusetotaketheirturnatthetoilsofstatewhentheyareallowedtospendthegreaterpartoftheirtimewithoneanotherintheheavenlylightimpossibleheansweredfortheyarejustmenandthecommandswhichweimposeuponthemarejusttherecanbenodoubtthateveryoneofthemwilltakeofficeasasternnecessityandnotafterthefashionofourpresentrulersofstateyesmyfriendisaidandthereliesthepointyoumustcontriveforyourfuturerulersanotherandabetterlifethanthatofarulerandthenyoumayhaveawellorderedstateforonlyinthestatewhichoffersthiswilltheyrulewhoaretrulyrichnotinsilverandgoldbutinvirtueandwisdomwhicharethetrueblessingsoflifewhereasiftheygototheadministrationofpublicaffairspoorandhungeringaftertheirownprivateadvantagethinkingthathencetheyaretosnatchthechiefgoodordertherecanneverbefortheywillbefightingaboutofficeandthecivilanddomesticbroilswhichthusarisewillbetheruinoftherulersthemselvesandofthewholestatemosttrueherepliedandtheonlylifewhichlooksdownuponthelifeofpoliticalambitionisthatoftruephilosophydoyouknowofanyotherindeedidonothesaidandthosewhogovernoughtnottobeloversofthetaskforiftheyaretherewillberivalloversandtheywillfightnoquestionwhothenarethosewhomweshallcompeltobeguardianssurelytheywillbethemenwhoarewisestaboutaffairsofstateandbywhomthestateisbestadministeredandwhoatthesametimehaveotherhonoursandanotherandabetterlifethanthatofpoliticstheyarethemenandiwillchoosethemherepliedandnowshallweconsiderinwhatwaysuchguardianswillbeproducedandhowtheyaretobebroughtfromdarknesstolightassomearesaidtohaveascendedfromtheworldbelowtothegodsbyallmeansherepliedtheprocessisaidisnottheturningoverofanoystershellinallusiontoagameinwhichtwopartiesfledorpursuedaccordingasanoystershellwhichwasthrownintotheairfellwiththedarkorlightsideuppermostbuttheturningroundofasoulpassingfromadaywhichislittlebetterthannighttothetruedayofbeingthatistheascentfrombelowwhichweaffirmtobetruephilosophyquitesoandshouldwenotenquirewhatsortofknowledgehasthepowerofeffectingsuchachangecertainlywhatsortofknowledgeistherewhichwoulddrawthesoulfrombecomingtobeingandanotherconsiderationhasjustoccurredtomeyouwillrememberthatouryoungmenaretobewarriorathletesyesthatwassaidthenthisnewkindofknowledgemusthaveanadditionalqualitywhatqualityusefulnessinwaryesifpossiblethereweretwopartsinourformerschemeofeducationweretherenotjustsotherewasgymnasticwhichpresidedoverthegrowthanddecayofthebodyandmaythereforeberegardedashavingtodowithgenerationandcorruptiontruethenthatisnottheknowledgewhichweareseekingtodiscovernobutwhatdoyousayofmusicwhichalsoenteredtoacertainextentintoourformerschememusichesaidasyouwillrememberwasthecounterpartofgymnasticandtrainedtheguardiansbytheinfluencesofhabitbyharmonymakingthemharmoniousbyrhythmrhythmicalbutnotgivingthemscienceandthewordswhetherfabulousorpossiblytruehadkindredelementsofrhythmandharmonyinthembutinmusictherewasnothingwhichtendedtothatgoodwhichyouarenowseekingyouaremostaccurateisaidinyourrecollectioninmusictherecertainlywasnothingofthekindbutwhatbranchofknowledgeistheremydearglauconwhichisofthedesirednaturesincealltheusefulartswerereckonedmeanbyusundoubtedlyandyetifmusicandgymnasticareexcludedandtheartsarealsoexcludedwhatremainswellisaidtheremaybenothingleftofourspecialsubjectsandthenweshallhavetotakesomethingwhichisnotspecialbutofuniversalapplicationwhatmaythatbeasomethingwhichallartsandsciencesandintelligencesuseincommonandwhicheveryonefirsthastolearnamongtheelementsofeducationwhatisthatthelittlematterofdistinguishingonetwoandthreeinawordnumberandcalculationdonotallartsandsciencesnecessarilypartakeofthemyesthentheartofwarpartakesofthemtobesurethenpalamedeswheneverheappearsintragedyprovesagamemnonridiculouslyunfittobeageneraldidyouneverremarkhowhedeclaresthathehadinventednumberandhadnumberedtheshipsandsetinarraytheranksofthearmyattroywhichimpliesthattheyhadneverbeennumberedbeforeandagamemnonmustbesupposedliterallytohavebeenincapableofcountinghisownfeethowcouldheifhewasignorantofnumberandifthatistruewhatsortofgeneralmusthehavebeenishouldsayaverystrangeoneifthiswasasyousaycanwedenythatawarriorshouldhaveaknowledgeofarithmeticcertainlyheshouldifheistohavethesmallestunderstandingofmilitarytacticsorindeedishouldrathersayifheistobeamanatallishouldliketoknowwhetheryouhavethesamenotionwhichihaveofthisstudywhatisyournotionitappearstometobeastudyofthekindwhichweareseekingandwhichleadsnaturallytoreflectionbutnevertohavebeenrightlyusedforthetrueuseofitissimplytodrawthesoultowardsbeingwillyouexplainyourmeaninghesaidiwilltryisaidandiwishyouwouldsharetheenquirywithmeandsayyesornowheniattempttodistinguishinmyownmindwhatbranchesofknowledgehavethisattractingpowerinorderthatwemayhaveclearerproofthatarithmeticisasisuspectoneofthemexplainhesaidimeantosaythatobjectsofsenseareoftwokindssomeofthemdonotinvitethoughtbecausethesenseisanadequatejudgeofthemwhileinthecaseofotherobjectssenseissountrustworthythatfurtherenquiryisimperativelydemandedyouareclearlyreferringhesaidtothemannerinwhichthesensesareimposeduponbydistanceandbypaintinginlightandshadenoisaidthatisnotatallmymeaningthenwhatisyourmeaningwhenspeakingofuninvitingobjectsimeanthosewhichdonotpassfromonesensationtotheoppositeinvitingobjectsarethosewhichdointhislattercasethesensecomingupontheobjectwhetheratadistanceorneargivesnomorevividideaofanythinginparticularthanofitsoppositeanillustrationwillmakemymeaningclearerherearethreefingersalittlefingerasecondfingerandamiddlefingerverygoodyoumaysupposethattheyareseenquitecloseandherecomesthepointwhatisiteachofthemequallyappearsafingerwhetherseeninthemiddleorattheextremitywhetherwhiteorblackorthickorthinitmakesnodifferenceafingerisafingerallthesameinthesecasesamanisnotcompelledtoaskofthoughtthequestionwhatisafingerforthesightneverintimatestothemindthatafingerisotherthanafingertrueandthereforeisaidaswemightexpectthereisnothingherewhichinvitesorexcitesintelligencethereisnothesaidbutisthisequallytrueofthegreatnessandsmallnessofthefingerscansightadequatelyperceivethemandisnodifferencemadebythecircumstancethatoneofthefingersisinthemiddleandanotherattheextremityandinlikemannerdoesthetouchadequatelyperceivethequalitiesofthicknessorthinnessofsoftnessorhardnessandsooftheothersensesdotheygiveperfectintimationsofsuchmattersisnottheirmodeofoperationonthiswisethesensewhichisconcernedwiththequalityofhardnessisnecessarilyconcernedalsowiththequalityofsoftnessandonlyintimatestothesoulthatthesamethingisfelttobebothhardandsoftyouarequiterighthesaidandmustnotthesoulbeperplexedatthisintimationwhichthesensegivesofahardwhichisalsosoftwhatagainisthemeaningoflightandheavyifthatwhichislightisalsoheavyandthatwhichisheavylightyeshesaidtheseintimationswhichthesoulreceivesareverycuriousandrequiretobeexplainedyesisaidandintheseperplexitiesthesoulnaturallysummonstoheraidcalculationandintelligencethatshemayseewhethertheseveralobjectsannouncedtoherareoneortwotrueandiftheyturnouttobetwoisnoteachofthemoneanddifferentcertainlyandifeachisoneandbotharetwoshewillconceivethetwoasinastateofdivisionforiftherewereundividedtheycouldonlybeconceivedofasonetruetheeyecertainlydidseebothsmallandgreatbutonlyinaconfusedmannertheywerenotdistinguishedyeswhereasthethinkingmindintendingtolightupthechaoswascompelledtoreversetheprocessandlookatsmallandgreatasseparateandnotconfusedverytruewasnotthisthebeginningoftheenquirywhatisgreatandwhatissmallexactlysoandthusarosethedistinctionofthevisibleandtheintelligiblemosttruethiswaswhatimeantwhenispokeofimpressionswhichinvitedtheintellectorthereversethosewhicharesimultaneouswithoppositeimpressionsinvitethoughtthosewhicharenotsimultaneousdonotiunderstandhesaidandagreewithyouandtowhichclassdounityandnumberbelongidonotknowherepliedthinkalittleandyouwillseethatwhathasprecededwillsupplytheanswerforifsimpleunitycouldbeadequatelyperceivedbythesightorbyanyothersensethenasweweresayinginthecaseofthefingertherewouldbenothingtoattracttowardsbeingbutwhenthereissomecontradictionalwayspresentandoneisthereverseofoneandinvolvestheconceptionofpluralitythenthoughtbeginstobearousedwithinusandthesoulperplexedandwantingtoarriveatadecisionaskswhatisabsoluteunitythisisthewayinwhichthestudyoftheonehasapowerofdrawingandconvertingthemindtothecontemplationoftruebeingandsurelyhesaidthisoccursnotablyinthecaseofoneforweseethesamethingtobebothoneandinfiniteinmultitudeyesisaidandthisbeingtrueofonemustbeequallytrueofallnumbercertainlyandallarithmeticandcalculationhavetodowithnumberyesandtheyappeartoleadthemindtowardstruthyesinaveryremarkablemannerthenthisisknowledgeofthekindforwhichweareseekinghavingadoubleusemilitaryandphilosophicalforthemanofwarmustlearntheartofnumberorhewillnotknowhowtoarrayhistroopsandthephilosopheralsobecausehehastoriseoutoftheseaofchangeandlayholdoftruebeingandthereforehemustbeanarithmeticianthatistrueandourguardianisbothwarriorandphilosophercertainlythenthisisakindofknowledgewhichlegislationmayfitlyprescribeandwemustendeavourtopersuadethosewhoaretobetheprincipalmenofourstatetogoandlearnarithmeticnotasamateursbuttheymustcarryonthestudyuntiltheyseethenatureofnumberswiththemindonlynoragainlikemerchantsorretailtraderswithaviewtobuyingorsellingbutforthesakeoftheirmilitaryuseandofthesoulherselfandbecausethiswillbetheeasiestwayforhertopassfrombecomingtotruthandbeingthatisexcellenthesaidyesisaidandnowhavingspokenofitimustaddhowcharmingthescienceisandinhowmanywaysitconducestoourdesiredendifpursuedinthespiritofaphilosopherandnotofashopkeeperhowdoyoumeanimeanasiwassayingthatarithmetichasaverygreatandelevatingeffectcompellingthesoultoreasonaboutabstractnumberandrebellingagainsttheintroductionofvisibleortangibleobjectsintotheargumentyouknowhowsteadilythemastersoftheartrepelandridiculeanyonewhoattemptstodivideabsoluteunitywhenheiscalculatingandifyoudividetheymultiplymeaningeitherthattheyintegratethenumberbecausetheydenythepossibilityoffractionsorthatdivisionisregardedbythemasaprocessofmultiplicationforthefractionsofonecontinuetobeunitstakingcarethatoneshallcontinueoneandnotbecomelostinfractionsthatisverytruenowsupposeapersonweretosaytothemomyfriendswhatarethesewonderfulnumbersaboutwhichyouarereasoninginwhichasyousaythereisaunitysuchasyoudemandandeachunitisequalinvariableindivisiblewhatwouldtheyanswertheywouldanswerasishouldconceivethattheywerespeakingofthosenumberswhichcanonlyberealizedinthoughtthenyouseethatthisknowledgemaybetrulycallednecessarynecessitatingasitclearlydoestheuseofthepureintelligenceintheattainmentofpuretruthyesthatisamarkedcharacteristicofitandhaveyoufurtherobservedthatthosewhohaveanaturaltalentforcalculationaregenerallyquickateveryotherkindofknowledgeandeventhedulliftheyhavehadanarithmeticaltrainingalthoughtheymayderivenootheradvantagefromitalwaysbecomemuchquickerthantheywouldotherwisehavebeenverytruehesaidandindeedyouwillnoteasilyfindamoredifficultstudyandnotmanyasdifficultyouwillnotandforallthesereasonsarithmeticisakindofknowledgeinwhichthebestnaturesshouldbetrainedandwhichmustnotbegivenupiagreeletthisthenbemadeoneofoursubjectsofeducationandnextshallweenquirewhetherthekindredsciencealsoconcernsusyoumeangeometryexactlysoclearlyhesaidweareconcernedwiththatpartofgeometrywhichrelatestowarforinpitchingacamportakingupapositionorclosingorextendingthelinesofanarmyoranyothermilitarymanoeuvrewhetherinactualbattleoronamarchitwillmakeallthedifferencewhetherageneralisorisnotageometricianyesisaidbutforthatpurposeaverylittleofeithergeometryorcalculationwillbeenoughthequestionrelatesrathertothegreaterandmoreadvancedpartofgeometrywhetherthattendsinanydegreetomakemoreeasythevisionoftheideaofgoodandthitherasiwassayingallthingstendwhichcompelthesoultoturnhergazetowardsthatplacewhereisthefullperfectionofbeingwhichsheoughtbyallmeanstobeholdtruehesaidthenifgeometrycompelsustoviewbeingitconcernsusifbecomingonlyitdoesnotconcernusyesthatiswhatweassertyetanybodywhohastheleastacquaintancewithgeometrywillnotdenythatsuchaconceptionofthescienceisinflatcontradictiontotheordinarylanguageofgeometricianshowsotheyhaveinviewpracticeonlyandarealwaysspeakinginanarrowandridiculousmannerofsquaringandextendingandapplyingandtheliketheyconfusethenecessitiesofgeometrywiththoseofdailylifewhereasknowledgeistherealobjectofthewholesciencecertainlyhesaidthenmustnotafurtheradmissionbemadewhatadmissionthattheknowledgeatwhichgeometryaimsisknowledgeoftheeternalandnotofaughtperishingandtransientthatherepliedmaybereadilyallowedandistruethenmynoblefriendgeometrywilldrawthesoultowardstruthandcreatethespiritofphilosophyandraiseupthatwhichisnowunhappilyallowedtofalldownnothingwillbemorelikelytohavesuchaneffectthennothingshouldbemoresternlylaiddownthanthattheinhabitantsofyourfaircityshouldbyallmeanslearngeometrymoreoverthesciencehasindirecteffectswhicharenotsmallofwhatkindhesaidtherearethemilitaryadvantagesofwhichyouspokeisaidandinalldepartmentsofknowledgeasexperienceprovesanyonewhohasstudiedgeometryisinfinitelyquickerofapprehensionthanonewhohasnotyesindeedhesaidthereisaninfinitedifferencebetweenthemthenshallweproposethisasasecondbranchofknowledgewhichouryouthwillstudyletusdosoherepliedandsupposewemakeastronomythethirdwhatdoyousayiamstronglyinclinedtoithesaidtheobservationoftheseasonsandofmonthsandyearsisasessentialtothegeneralasitistothefarmerorsailoriamamusedisaidatyourfearoftheworldwhichmakesyouguardagainsttheappearanceofinsistinguponuselessstudiesandiquiteadmitthedifficultyofbelievingthatineverymanthereisaneyeofthesoulwhichwhenbyotherpursuitslostanddimmedisbythesepurifiedandreilluminedandismorepreciousfarthantenthousandbodilyeyesforbyitaloneistruthseennowtherearetwoclassesofpersonsoneclassofthosewhowillagreewithyouandwilltakeyourwordsasarevelationanotherclasstowhomtheywillbeutterlyunmeaningandwhowillnaturallydeemthemtobeidletalesfortheyseenosortofprofitwhichistobeobtainedfromthemandthereforeyouhadbetterdecideatoncewithwhichofthetwoyouareproposingtoargueyouwillverylikelysaywithneitherandthatyourchiefaimincarryingontheargumentisyourownimprovementatthesametimeyoudonotgrudgetoothersanybenefitwhichtheymayreceiveithinkthatishouldprefertocarryontheargumentmainlyonmyownbehalfthentakeastepbackwardforwehavegonewrongintheorderofthescienceswhatwasthemistakehesaidafterplanegeometryisaidweproceededatoncetosolidsinrevolutioninsteadoftakingsolidsinthemselveswhereasaftertheseconddimensionthethirdwhichisconcernedwithcubesanddimensionsofdepthoughttohavefollowedthatistruesocratesbutsolittleseemstobeknownasyetaboutthesesubjectswhyyesisaidandfortworeasonsinthefirstplacenogovernmentpatronisesthemthisleadstoawantofenergyinthepursuitofthemandtheyaredifficultinthesecondplacestudentscannotlearnthemunlesstheyhaveadirectorbutthenadirectorcanhardlybefoundandevenifhecouldasmattersnowstandthestudentswhoareveryconceitedwouldnotattendtohimthathoweverwouldbeotherwiseifthewholestatebecamethedirectorofthesestudiesandgavehonourtothemthendiscipleswouldwanttocomeandtherewouldbecontinuousandearnestsearchanddiscoverieswouldbemadesinceevennowdisregardedastheyarebytheworldandmaimedoftheirfairproportionsandalthoughnoneoftheirvotariescantelltheuseofthemstillthesestudiesforcetheirwaybytheirnaturalcharmandverylikelyiftheyhadthehelpofthestatetheywouldsomedayemergeintolightyeshesaidthereisaremarkablecharminthembutidonotclearlyunderstandthechangeintheorderfirstyoubeganwithageometryofplanesurfacesyesisaidandyouplacedastronomynextandthenyoumadeastepbackwardyesandihavedelayedyoubymyhurrytheludicrousstateofsolidgeometrywhichinnaturalordershouldhavefollowedmademepassoverthisbranchandgoontoastronomyormotionofsolidstruehesaidthenassumingthatthesciencenowomittedwouldcomeintoexistenceifencouragedbythestateletusgoontoastronomywhichwillbefourththerightorderherepliedandnowsocratesasyourebukedthevulgarmannerinwhichipraisedastronomybeforemypraiseshallbegiveninyourownspiritforeveryoneasithinkmustseethatastronomycompelsthesoultolookupwardsandleadsusfromthisworldtoanothereveryonebutmyselfisaidtoeveryoneelsethismaybeclearbutnottomeandwhatthenwouldyousayishouldrathersaythatthosewhoelevateastronomyintophilosophyappeartometomakeuslookdownwardsandnotupwardswhatdoyoumeanheaskedyouirepliedhaveinyourmindatrulysublimeconceptionofourknowledgeofthethingsaboveandidaresaythatifapersonweretothrowhisheadbackandstudythefrettedceilingyouwouldstillthinkthathismindwasthepercipientandnothiseyesandyouareverylikelyrightandimaybeasimpletonbutinmyopinionthatknowledgeonlywhichisofbeingandoftheunseencanmakethesoullookupwardsandwhetheramangapesattheheavensorblinksonthegroundseekingtolearnsomeparticularofsenseiwoulddenythathecanlearnfornothingofthatsortismatterofsciencehissoulislookingdownwardsnotupwardswhetherhiswaytoknowledgeisbywaterorbylandwhetherhefloatsoronlyliesonhisbackiacknowledgehesaidthejusticeofyourrebukestillishouldliketoascertainhowastronomycanbelearnedinanymannermoreconducivetothatknowledgeofwhichwearespeakingiwilltellyouisaidthestarryheavenwhichwebeholdiswroughtuponavisiblegroundandthereforealthoughthefairestandmostperfectofvisiblethingsmustnecessarilybedeemedinferiorfartothetruemotionsofabsoluteswiftnessandabsoluteslownesswhicharerelativetoeachotherandcarrywiththemthatwhichiscontainedintheminthetruenumberandineverytruefigurenowthesearetobeapprehendedbyreasonandintelligencebutnotbysighttrueherepliedthespangledheavensshouldbeusedasapatternandwithaviewtothathigherknowledgetheirbeautyislikethebeautyoffiguresorpicturesexcellentlywroughtbythehandofdaedalusorsomeothergreatartistwhichwemaychancetobeholdanygeometricianwhosawthemwouldappreciatetheexquisitenessoftheirworkmanshipbuthewouldneverdreamofthinkingthatinthemhecouldfindthetrueequalorthetruedoubleorthetruthofanyotherproportionnoherepliedsuchanideawouldberidiculousandwillnotatrueastronomerhavethesamefeelingwhenhelooksatthemovementsofthestarswillhenotthinkthatheavenandthethingsinheavenareframedbythecreatoroftheminthemostperfectmannerbuthewillneverimaginethattheproportionsofnightanddayorofbothtothemonthorofthemonthtotheyearorofthestarstotheseandtooneanotherandanyotherthingsthatarematerialandvisiblecanalsobeeternalandsubjecttonodeviationthatwouldbeabsurdanditisequallyabsurdtotakesomuchpainsininvestigatingtheirexacttruthiquiteagreethoughineverthoughtofthisbeforethenisaidinastronomyasingeometryweshouldemployproblemsandlettheheavensaloneifwewouldapproachthesubjectintherightwayandsomakethenaturalgiftofreasontobeofanyrealusethathesaidisaworkinfinitelybeyondourpresentastronomersyesisaidandtherearemanyotherthingswhichmustalsohaveasimilarextensiongiventothemifourlegislationistobeofanyvaluebutcanyoutellmeofanyothersuitablestudynohesaidnotwithoutthinkingmotionisaidhasmanyformsandnotoneonlytwoofthemareobviousenougheventowitsnobetterthanoursandthereareothersasiimaginewhichmaybelefttowiserpersonsbutwherearethetwothereisasecondisaidwhichisthecounterpartoftheonealreadynamedandwhatmaythatbethesecondisaidwouldseemrelativelytotheearstobewhatthefirstistotheeyesforiconceivethatastheeyesaredesignedtolookupatthestarssoaretheearstohearharmoniousmotionsandthesearesistersciencesasthepythagoreanssayandweglauconagreewiththemyesherepliedbutthisisaidisalaboriousstudyandthereforewehadbettergoandlearnofthemandtheywilltelluswhetherthereareanyotherapplicationsofthesesciencesatthesametimewemustnotlosesightofourownhigherobjectwhatisthatthereisaperfectionwhichallknowledgeoughttoreachandwhichourpupilsoughtalsotoattainandnottofallshortofasiwassayingthattheydidinastronomyforinthescienceofharmonyasyouprobablyknowthesamethinghappenstheteachersofharmonycomparethesoundsandconsonanceswhichareheardonlyandtheirlabourlikethatoftheastronomersisinvainyesbyheavenhesaidandtisasgoodasaplaytohearthemtalkingabouttheircondensednotesastheycallthemtheyputtheirearsclosealongsideofthestringslikepersonscatchingasoundfromtheirneighbourswallonesetofthemdeclaringthattheydistinguishanintermediatenoteandhavefoundtheleastintervalwhichshouldbetheunitofmeasurementtheothersinsistingthatthetwosoundshavepassedintothesameeitherpartysettingtheirearsbeforetheirunderstandingyoumeanisaidthosegentlemenwhoteaseandtorturethestringsandrackthemonthepegsoftheinstrumentimightcarryonthemetaphorandspeakaftertheirmanneroftheblowswhichtheplectrumgivesandmakeaccusationsagainstthestringsbothofbackwardnessandforwardnesstosoundbutthiswouldbetediousandthereforeiwillonlysaythatthesearenotthemenandthatiamreferringtothepythagoreansofwhomiwasjustnowproposingtoenquireaboutharmonyfortheytooareinerrorliketheastronomerstheyinvestigatethenumbersoftheharmonieswhichareheardbuttheyneverattaintoproblemsthatistosaytheyneverreachthenaturalharmoniesofnumberorreflectwhysomenumbersareharmoniousandothersnotthathesaidisathingofmorethanmortalknowledgeathingirepliedwhichiwouldrathercallusefulthatisifsoughtafterwithaviewtothebeautifulandgoodbutifpursuedinanyotherspirituselessverytruehesaidnowwhenallthesestudiesreachthepointofintercommunionandconnectionwithoneanotherandcometobeconsideredintheirmutualaffinitiesthenithinkbutnottillthenwillthepursuitofthemhaveavalueforourobjectsotherwisethereisnoprofitinthemisuspectsobutyouarespeakingsocratesofavastworkwhatdoyoumeanisaidthepreludeorwhatdoyounotknowthatallthisisbutthepreludetotheactualstrainwhichwehavetolearnforyousurelywouldnotregardtheskilledmathematicianasadialecticianassuredlynothesaidihavehardlyeverknownamathematicianwhowascapableofreasoningbutdoyouimaginethatmenwhoareunabletogiveandtakeareasonwillhavetheknowledgewhichwerequireofthemneithercanthisbesupposedandsoglauconisaidwehaveatlastarrivedatthehymnofdialecticthisisthatstrainwhichisoftheintellectonlybutwhichthefacultyofsightwillneverthelessbefoundtoimitateforsightasyoumayrememberwasimaginedbyusafterawhiletobeholdtherealanimalsandstarsandlastofallthesunhimselfandsowithdialecticwhenapersonstartsonthediscoveryoftheabsolutebythelightofreasononlyandwithoutanyassistanceofsenseandperseveresuntilbypureintelligencehearrivesattheperceptionoftheabsolutegoodheatlastfindshimselfattheendoftheintellectualworldasinthecaseofsightattheendofthevisibleexactlyhesaidthenthisistheprogresswhichyoucalldialectictruebutthereleaseoftheprisonersfromchainsandtheirtranslationfromtheshadowstotheimagesandtothelightandtheascentfromtheundergrounddentothesunwhileinhispresencetheyarevainlytryingtolookonanimalsandplantsandthelightofthesunbutareabletoperceiveevenwiththeirweakeyestheimagesinthewaterwhicharedivineandaretheshadowsoftrueexistencenotshadowsofimagescastbyalightoffirewhichcomparedwiththesunisonlyanimagethispowerofelevatingthehighestprincipleinthesoultothecontemplationofthatwhichisbestinexistencewithwhichwemaycomparetheraisingofthatfacultywhichistheverylightofthebodytothesightofthatwhichisbrightestinthematerialandvisibleworldthispowerisgivenasiwassayingbyallthatstudyandpursuitoftheartswhichhasbeendescribediagreeinwhatyouaresayingherepliedwhichmaybehardtobelieveyetfromanotherpointofviewisharderstilltodenythishoweverisnotathemetobetreatedofinpassingonlybutwillhavetobediscussedagainandagainandsowhetherourconclusionbetrueorfalseletusassumeallthisandproceedatoncefromthepreludeorpreambletothechiefstrainaplayuponthegreekwordwhichmeansbothlawandstrainanddescribethatinlikemannersaythenwhatisthenatureandwhatarethedivisionsofdialecticandwhatarethepathswhichleadthitherforthesepathswillalsoleadtoourfinalrestdearglauconisaidyouwillnotbeabletofollowmeherethoughiwoulddomybestandyoushouldbeholdnotanimageonlybuttheabsolutetruthaccordingtomynotionwhetherwhatitoldyouwouldorwouldnothavebeenarealityicannotventuretosaybutyouwouldhaveseensomethinglikerealityofthatiamconfidentdoubtlessherepliedbutimustalsoremindyouthatthepowerofdialecticalonecanrevealthisandonlytoonewhoisadiscipleoftheprevioussciencesofthatassertionyoumaybeasconfidentasofthelastandassuredlynoonewillarguethatthereisanyothermethodofcomprehendingbyanyregularprocessalltrueexistenceorofascertainingwhateachthingisinitsownnaturefortheartsingeneralareconcernedwiththedesiresoropinionsofmenorarecultivatedwithaviewtoproductionandconstructionorforthepreservationofsuchproductionsandconstructionsandastothemathematicalscienceswhichasweweresayinghavesomeapprehensionoftruebeinggeometryandtheliketheyonlydreamaboutbeingbutnevercantheybeholdthewakingrealitysolongastheyleavethehypotheseswhichtheyuseunexaminedandareunabletogiveanaccountofthemforwhenamanknowsnothisownfirstprincipleandwhentheconclusionandintermediatestepsarealsoconstructedoutofheknowsnotwhathowcanheimaginethatsuchafabricofconventioncaneverbecomescienceimpossiblehesaidthendialecticanddialecticalonegoesdirectlytothefirstprincipleandistheonlysciencewhichdoesawaywithhypothesesinordertomakehergroundsecuretheeyeofthesoulwhichisliterallyburiedinanoutlandishsloughisbyhergentleaidliftedupwardsandsheusesashandmaidsandhelpersintheworkofconversionthescienceswhichwehavebeendiscussingcustomtermsthemsciencesbuttheyoughttohavesomeothernameimplyinggreaterclearnessthanopinionandlessclearnessthanscienceandthisinourprevioussketchwascalledunderstandingbutwhyshouldwedisputeaboutnameswhenwehaverealitiesofsuchimportancetoconsiderwhyindeedhesaidwhenanynamewilldowhichexpressesthethoughtofthemindwithclearnessatanyratewearesatisfiedasbeforetohavefourdivisionstwoforintellectandtwoforopinionandtocallthefirstdivisionsciencethesecondunderstandingthethirdbeliefandthefourthperceptionofshadowsopinionbeingconcernedwithbecomingandintellectwithbeingandsotomakeaproportionasbeingistobecomingsoispureintellecttoopinionandasintellectistoopinionsoissciencetobeliefandunderstandingtotheperceptionofshadowsbutletusdeferthefurthercorrelationandsubdivisionofthesubjectsofopinionandofintellectforitwillbealongenquirymanytimeslongerthanthishasbeenasfarasiunderstandhesaidiagreeanddoyoualsoagreeisaidindescribingthedialecticianasonewhoattainsaconceptionoftheessenceofeachthingandhewhodoesnotpossessandisthereforeunabletoimpartthisconceptioninwhateverdegreehefailsmayinthatdegreealsobesaidtofailinintelligencewillyouadmitsomuchyeshesaidhowcanidenyitandyouwouldsaythesameoftheconceptionofthegooduntilthepersonisabletoabstractanddefinerationallytheideaofgoodandunlesshecanrunthegauntletofallobjectionsandisreadytodisprovethemnotbyappealstoopinionbuttoabsolutetruthneverfalteringatanystepoftheargumentunlesshecandoallthisyouwouldsaythatheknowsneithertheideaofgoodnoranyothergoodheapprehendsonlyashadowifanythingatallwhichisgivenbyopinionandnotbysciencedreamingandslumberinginthislifebeforeheiswellawakeherehearrivesattheworldbelowandhashisfinalquietusinallthatishouldmostcertainlyagreewithyouandsurelyyouwouldnothavethechildrenofyouridealstatewhomyouarenurturingandeducatingiftheidealeverbecomesarealityyouwouldnotallowthefuturerulerstobelikepostsliterallylinesprobablythestartingpointofaracecoursehavingnoreasoninthemandyettobesetinauthorityoverthehighestmatterscertainlynotthenyouwillmakealawthattheyshallhavesuchaneducationaswillenablethemtoattainthegreatestskillinaskingandansweringquestionsyeshesaidyouanditogetherwillmakeitdialecticthenasyouwillagreeisthecopingstoneofthesciencesandissetoverthemnoothersciencecanbeplacedhigherthenatureofknowledgecannofurthergoiagreehesaidbuttowhomwearetoassignthesestudiesandinwhatwaytheyaretobeassignedarequestionswhichremaintobeconsideredyesclearlyyourememberisaidhowtherulerswerechosenbeforecertainlyhesaidthesamenaturesmuststillbechosenandthepreferenceagaingiventothesurestandthebravestandifpossibletothefairestandhavingnobleandgeneroustemperstheyshouldalsohavethenaturalgiftswhichwillfacilitatetheireducationandwhatarethesesuchgiftsaskeennessandreadypowersofacquisitionforthemindmoreoftenfaintsfromtheseverityofstudythanfromtheseverityofgymnasticsthetoilismoreentirelythemindsownandisnotsharedwiththebodyverytrueherepliedfurtherheofwhomweareinsearchshouldhaveagoodmemoryandbeanunweariedsolidmanwhoisaloveroflabourinanylineorhewillneverbeabletoendurethegreatamountofbodilyexerciseandtogothroughalltheintellectualdisciplineandstudywhichwerequireofhimcertainlyhesaidhemusthavenaturalgiftsthemistakeatpresentisthatthosewhostudyphilosophyhavenovocationandthisasiwasbeforesayingisthereasonwhyshehasfallenintodisreputehertruesonsshouldtakeherbythehandandnotbastardswhatdoyoumeaninthefirstplacehervotaryshouldnothavealameorhaltingindustryimeanthatheshouldnotbehalfindustriousandhalfidleasforexamplewhenamanisaloverofgymnasticandhuntingandallotherbodilyexercisesbutahaterratherthanaloverofthelabouroflearningorlisteningorenquiringortheoccupationtowhichhedevoteshimselfmaybeofanoppositekindandhemayhavetheothersortoflamenesscertainlyhesaidandastotruthisaidisnotasoulequallytobedeemedhaltandlamewhichhatesvoluntaryfalsehoodandisextremelyindignantatherselfandotherswhentheytellliesbutispatientofinvoluntaryfalsehoodanddoesnotmindwallowinglikeaswinishbeastinthemireofignoranceandhasnoshameatbeingdetectedtobesureandagaininrespectoftemperancecouragemagnificenceandeveryothervirtueshouldwenotcarefullydistinguishbetweenthetruesonandthebastardforwherethereisnodiscernmentofsuchqualitiesstatesandindividualsunconsciouslyerrandthestatemakesarulerandtheindividualafriendofonewhobeingdefectiveinsomepartofvirtueisinafigurelameorabastardthatisverytruehesaidallthesethingsthenwillhavetobecarefullyconsideredbyusandifonlythosewhomweintroducetothisvastsystemofeducationandtrainingaresoundinbodyandmindjusticeherselfwillhavenothingtosayagainstusandweshallbethesavioursoftheconstitutionandofthestatebutifourpupilsaremenofanotherstampthereversewillhappenandweshallpourastillgreaterfloodofridiculeonphilosophythanshehastoendureatpresentthatwouldnotbecreditablecertainlynotisaidandyetperhapsinthusturningjestintoearnestiamequallyridiculousinwhatrespectihadforgottenisaidthatwewerenotseriousandspokewithtoomuchexcitementforwhenisawphilosophysoundeservedlytrampledunderfootofmenicouldnothelpfeelingasortofindignationattheauthorsofherdisgraceandmyangermademetoovehementindeediwaslisteninganddidnotthinksobutiwhoamthespeakerfeltthatiwasandnowletmeremindyouthatalthoughinourformerselectionwechoseoldmenwemustnotdosointhissolonwasunderadelusionwhenhesaidthatamanwhenhegrowsoldmaylearnmanythingsforhecannomorelearnmuchthanhecanrunmuchyouthisthetimeforanyextraordinarytoilofcourseandthereforecalculationandgeometryandalltheotherelementsofinstructionwhichareapreparationfordialecticshouldbepresentedtothemindinchildhoodnothoweverunderanynotionofforcingoursystemofeducationwhynotbecauseafreemanoughtnottobeaslaveintheacquisitionofknowledgeofanykindbodilyexercisewhencompulsorydoesnoharmtothebodybutknowledgewhichisacquiredundercompulsionobtainsnoholdonthemindverytruethenmygoodfriendisaiddonotusecompulsionbutletearlyeducationbeasortofamusementyouwillthenbebetterabletofindoutthenaturalbentthatisaveryrationalnotionhesaiddoyourememberthatthechildrentooweretobetakentoseethebattleonhorsebackandthatiftherewerenodangertheyweretobebroughtcloseupandlikeyounghoundshaveatasteofbloodgiventhemyesirememberthesamepracticemaybefollowedisaidinallthesethingslabourslessonsdangersandhewhoismostathomeinallofthemoughttobeenrolledinaselectnumberatwhatageattheagewhenthenecessarygymnasticsareovertheperiodwhetheroftwoorthreeyearswhichpassesinthissortoftrainingisuselessforanyotherpurposeforsleepandexerciseareunpropitioustolearningandthetrialofwhoisfirstingymnasticexercisesisoneofthemostimportantteststowhichouryoutharesubjectedcertainlyherepliedafterthattimethosewhoareselectedfromtheclassoftwentyyearsoldwillbepromotedtohigherhonourandthescienceswhichtheylearnedwithoutanyorderintheirearlyeducationwillnowbebroughttogetherandtheywillbeabletoseethenaturalrelationshipofthemtooneanotherandtotruebeingyeshesaidthatistheonlykindofknowledgewhichtakeslastingrootyesisaidandthecapacityforsuchknowledgeisthegreatcriterionofdialecticaltalentthecomprehensivemindisalwaysthedialecticaliagreewithyouhesaidtheseisaidarethepointswhichyoumustconsiderandthosewhohavemostofthiscomprehensionandwhoaremoststeadfastintheirlearningandintheirmilitaryandotherappointeddutieswhentheyhavearrivedattheageofthirtyhavetobechosenbyyououtoftheselectclassandelevatedtohigherhonourandyouwillhavetoprovethembythehelpofdialecticinordertolearnwhichofthemisabletogiveuptheuseofsightandtheothersensesandincompanywithtruthtoattainabsolutebeingandheremyfriendgreatcautionisrequiredwhygreatcautiondoyounotremarkisaidhowgreatistheevilwhichdialectichasintroducedwhatevilhesaidthestudentsoftheartarefilledwithlawlessnessquitetruehesaiddoyouthinkthatthereisanythingsoveryunnaturalorinexcusableintheircaseorwillyoumakeallowancefortheminwhatwaymakeallowanceiwantyouisaidbywayofparalleltoimagineasupposititioussonwhoisbroughtupingreatwealthheisoneofagreatandnumerousfamilyandhasmanyflattererswhenhegrowsuptomanhoodhelearnsthathisallegedarenothisrealparentsbutwhotherealareheisunabletodiscovercanyouguesshowhewillbelikelytobehavetowardshisflatterersandhissupposedparentsfirstofallduringtheperiodwhenheisignorantofthefalserelationandthenagainwhenheknowsorshalliguessforyouifyoupleasethenishouldsaythatwhileheisignorantofthetruthhewillbelikelytohonourhisfatherandhismotherandhissupposedrelationsmorethantheflatterershewillbelessinclinedtoneglectthemwheninneedortodoorsayanythingagainstthemandhewillbelesswillingtodisobeytheminanyimportantmatterhewillbutwhenhehasmadethediscoveryishouldimaginethathewoulddiminishhishonourandregardforthemandwouldbecomemoredevotedtotheflattererstheirinfluenceoverhimwouldgreatlyincreasehewouldnowliveaftertheirwaysandopenlyassociatewiththemandunlesshewereofanunusuallygooddispositionhewouldtroublehimselfnomoreabouthissupposedparentsorotherrelationswellallthatisveryprobablebuthowistheimageapplicabletothedisciplesofphilosophyinthiswayyouknowthattherearecertainprinciplesaboutjusticeandhonourwhichweretaughtusinchildhoodandundertheirparentalauthoritywehavebeenbroughtupobeyingandhonouringthemthatistruetherearealsooppositemaximsandhabitsofpleasurewhichflatterandattractthesoulbutdonotinfluencethoseofuswhohaveanysenseofrightandtheycontinuetoobeyandhonourthemaximsoftheirfatherstruenowwhenamanisinthisstateandthequestioningspiritaskswhatisfairorhonourableandheanswersasthelegislatorhastaughthimandthenargumentsmanyanddiverserefutehiswordsuntilheisdrivenintobelievingthatnothingishonourableanymorethandishonourableorjustandgoodanymorethanthereverseandsoofallthenotionswhichhemostvalueddoyouthinkthathewillstillhonourandobeythemasbeforeimpossibleandwhenheceasestothinkthemhonourableandnaturalasheretoforeandhefailstodiscoverthetruecanhebeexpectedtopursueanylifeotherthanthatwhichflattershisdesireshecannotandfrombeingakeeperofthelawheisconvertedintoabreakerofitunquestionablynowallthisisverynaturalinstudentsofphilosophysuchasihavedescribedandalsoasiwasjustnowsayingmostexcusableyeshesaidandimayaddpitiablethereforethatyourfeelingsmaynotbemovedtopityaboutourcitizenswhoarenowthirtyyearsofageeverycaremustbetakeninintroducingthemtodialecticcertainlythereisadangerlesttheyshouldtastethedeardelighttooearlyforyoungstersasyoumayhaveobservedwhentheyfirstgetthetasteintheirmouthsargueforamusementandarealwayscontradictingandrefutingothersinimitationofthosewhorefutethemlikepuppydogstheyrejoiceinpullingandtearingatallwhocomenearthemyeshesaidthereisnothingwhichtheylikebetterandwhentheyhavemademanyconquestsandreceiveddefeatsatthehandsofmanytheyviolentlyandspeedilygetintoawayofnotbelievinganythingwhichtheybelievedbeforeandhencenotonlytheybutphilosophyandallthatrelatestoitisapttohaveabadnamewiththerestoftheworldtootruehesaidbutwhenamanbeginstogetolderhewillnolongerbeguiltyofsuchinsanityhewillimitatethedialecticianwhoisseekingfortruthandnottheeristicwhoiscontradictingforthesakeofamusementandthegreatermoderationofhischaracterwillincreaseinsteadofdiminishingthehonourofthepursuitverytruehesaidanddidwenotmakespecialprovisionforthiswhenwesaidthatthedisciplesofphilosophyweretobeorderlyandsteadfastnotasnowanychanceaspirantorintruderverytruesupposeisaidthestudyofphilosophytotaketheplaceofgymnasticsandtobecontinueddiligentlyandearnestlyandexclusivelyfortwicethenumberofyearswhichwerepassedinbodilyexercisewillthatbeenoughwouldyousaysixorfouryearsheaskedsayfiveyearsirepliedattheendofthetimetheymustbesentdownagainintothedenandcompelledtoholdanymilitaryorotherofficewhichyoungmenarequalifiedtoholdinthiswaytheywillgettheirexperienceoflifeandtherewillbeanopportunityoftryingwhetherwhentheyaredrawnallmannerofwaysbytemptationtheywillstandfirmorflinchandhowlongisthisstageoftheirlivestolastfifteenyearsiansweredandwhentheyhavereachedfiftyyearsofagethenletthosewhostillsurviveandhavedistinguishedthemselvesineveryactionoftheirlivesandineverybranchofknowledgecomeatlasttotheirconsummationthetimehasnowarrivedatwhichtheymustraisetheeyeofthesoultotheuniversallightwhichlightensallthingsandbeholdtheabsolutegoodforthatisthepatternaccordingtowhichtheyaretoorderthestateandthelivesofindividualsandtheremainderoftheirownlivesalsomakingphilosophytheirchiefpursuitbutwhentheirturncomestoilingalsoatpoliticsandrulingforthepublicgoodnotasthoughtheywereperformingsomeheroicactionbutsimplyasamatterofdutyandwhentheyhavebroughtupineachgenerationotherslikethemselvesandleftthemintheirplacetobegovernorsofthestatethentheywilldeparttotheislandsoftheblestanddwellthereandthecitywillgivethempublicmemorialsandsacrificesandhonourthemifthepythianoracleconsentasdemigodsbutifnotasinanycaseblessedanddivineyouareasculptorsocratesandhavemadestatuesofourgovernorsfaultlessinbeautyyesisaidglauconandofourgovernessestooforyoumustnotsupposethatwhatihavebeensayingappliestomenonlyandnottowomenasfarastheirnaturescangothereyouarerighthesaidsincewehavemadethemtoshareinallthingslikethemenwellisaidandyouwouldagreewouldyounotthatwhathasbeensaidaboutthestateandthegovernmentisnotameredreamandalthoughdifficultnotimpossiblebutonlypossibleinthewaywhichhasbeensupposedthatistosaywhenthetruephilosopherkingsareborninastateoneormoreofthemdespisingthehonoursofthispresentworldwhichtheydeemmeanandworthlessesteemingaboveallthingsrightandthehonourthatspringsfromrightandregardingjusticeasthegreatestandmostnecessaryofallthingswhoseministerstheyareandwhoseprincipleswillbeexaltedbythemwhentheysetinordertheirowncityhowwilltheyproceedtheywillbeginbysendingoutintothecountryalltheinhabitantsofthecitywhoaremorethantenyearsoldandwilltakepossessionoftheirchildrenwhowillbeunaffectedbythehabitsoftheirparentsthesetheywilltrainintheirownhabitsandlawsimeaninthelawswhichwehavegiventhemandinthiswaythestateandconstitutionofwhichwewerespeakingwillsoonestandmosteasilyattainhappinessandthenationwhichhassuchaconstitutionwillgainmostyesthatwillbethebestwayandithinksocratesthatyouhaveverywelldescribedhowifeversuchaconstitutionmightcomeintobeingenoughthenoftheperfectstateandofthemanwhobearsitsimagethereisnodifficultyinseeinghowweshalldescribehimthereisnodifficultyherepliedandiagreewithyouinthinkingthatnothingmoreneedbesaidbookviiiandsoglauconwehavearrivedattheconclusionthatintheperfectstatewivesandchildrenaretobeincommonandthatalleducationandthepursuitsofwarandpeacearealsotobecommonandthebestphilosophersandthebravestwarriorsaretobetheirkingsthatrepliedglauconhasbeenacknowledgedyesisaidandwehavefurtheracknowledgedthatthegovernorswhenappointedthemselveswilltaketheirsoldiersandplacetheminhousessuchasweweredescribingwhicharecommontoallandcontainnothingprivateorindividualandabouttheirpropertyyourememberwhatweagreedyesirememberthatnoonewastohaveanyoftheordinarypossessionsofmankindtheyweretobewarriorathletesandguardiansreceivingfromtheothercitizensinlieuofannualpaymentonlytheirmaintenanceandtheyweretotakecareofthemselvesandofthewholestatetrueisaidandnowthatthisdivisionofourtaskisconcludedletusfindthepointatwhichwedigressedthatwemayreturnintotheoldpaththereisnodifficultyinreturningyouimpliedthenasnowthatyouhadfinishedthedescriptionofthestateyousaidthatsuchastatewasgoodandthatthemanwasgoodwhoansweredtoitalthoughasnowappearsyouhadmoreexcellentthingstorelatebothofstateandmanandyousaidfurtherthatifthiswasthetrueformthentheotherswerefalseandofthefalseformsyousaidasirememberthattherewerefourprincipalonesandthattheirdefectsandthedefectsoftheindividualscorrespondingtothemwereworthexaminingwhenwehadseenalltheindividualsandfinallyagreedastowhowasthebestandwhowastheworstofthemweweretoconsiderwhetherthebestwasnotalsothehappiestandtheworstthemostmiserableiaskedyouwhatwerethefourformsofgovernmentofwhichyouspokeandthenpolemarchusandadeimantusputintheirwordandyoubeganagainandhavefoundyourwaytothepointatwhichwehavenowarrivedyourrecollectionisaidismostexactthenlikeawrestlerherepliedyoumustputyourselfagaininthesamepositionandletmeaskthesamequestionsanddoyougivemethesameanswerwhichyouwereabouttogivemethenyesificaniwillisaidishallparticularlywishtohearwhatwerethefourconstitutionsofwhichyouwerespeakingthatquestionisaidiseasilyansweredthefourgovernmentsofwhichispokesofarastheyhavedistinctnamesarefirstthoseofcreteandspartawhicharegenerallyapplaudedwhatistermedoligarchycomesnextthisisnotequallyapprovedandisaformofgovernmentwhichteemswithevilsthirdlydemocracywhichnaturallyfollowsoligarchyalthoughverydifferentandlastlycomestyrannygreatandfamouswhichdiffersfromthemallandisthefourthandworstdisorderofastateidonotknowdoyouofanyotherconstitutionwhichcanbesaidtohaveadistinctcharactertherearelordshipsandprincipalitieswhichareboughtandsoldandsomeotherintermediateformsofgovernmentbutthesearenondescriptsandmaybefoundequallyamonghellenesandamongbarbariansyesherepliedwecertainlyhearofmanycuriousformsofgovernmentwhichexistamongthemdoyouknowisaidthatgovernmentsvaryasthedispositionsofmenvaryandthattheremustbeasmanyoftheoneasthereareoftheotherforwecannotsupposethatstatesaremadeofoakandrockandnotoutofthehumannatureswhichareinthemandwhichinafigureturnthescaleanddrawotherthingsafterthemyeshesaidthestatesareasthemenaretheygrowoutofhumancharacterstheniftheconstitutionsofstatesarefivethedispositionsofindividualmindswillalsobefivecertainlyhimwhoanswerstoaristocracyandwhomwerightlycalljustandgoodwehavealreadydescribedwehavethenletusnowproceedtodescribetheinferiorsortofnaturesbeingthecontentiousandambitiouswhoanswertothespartanpolityalsotheoligarchicaldemocraticalandtyrannicalletusplacethemostjustbythesideofthemostunjustandwhenweseethemweshallbeabletocomparetherelativehappinessorunhappinessofhimwholeadsalifeofpurejusticeorpureinjusticetheenquirywillthenbecompletedandweshallknowwhetherweoughttopursueinjusticeasthrasymachusadvisesorinaccordancewiththeconclusionsoftheargumenttopreferjusticecertainlyherepliedwemustdoasyousayshallwefollowouroldplanwhichweadoptedwithaviewtoclearnessoftakingthestatefirstandthenproceedingtotheindividualandbeginwiththegovernmentofhonouriknowofnonameforsuchagovernmentotherthantimocracyorperhapstimarchywewillcomparewiththisthelikecharacterintheindividualandafterthatconsideroligarchyandtheoligarchicalmanandthenagainwewillturnourattentiontodemocracyandthedemocraticalmanandlastlywewillgoandviewthecityoftyrannyandoncemoretakealookintothetyrantssoulandtrytoarriveatasatisfactorydecisionthatwayofviewingandjudgingofthematterwillbeverysuitablefirstthenisaidletusenquirehowtimocracythegovernmentofhonourarisesoutofaristocracythegovernmentofthebestclearlyallpoliticalchangesoriginateindivisionsoftheactualgoverningpoweragovernmentwhichisunitedhoweversmallcannotbemovedverytruehesaidinwhatwaythenwillourcitybemovedandinwhatmannerwillthetwoclassesofauxiliariesandrulersdisagreeamongthemselvesorwithoneanothershallweafterthemannerofhomerpraythemusestotellushowdiscordfirstaroseshallweimaginetheminsolemnmockerytoplayandjestwithusasifwewerechildrenandtoaddressusinaloftytragicveinmakingbelievetobeinearnesthowwouldtheyaddressusafterthismanneracitywhichisthusconstitutedcanhardlybeshakenbutseeingthateverythingwhichhasabeginninghasalsoanendevenaconstitutionsuchasyourswillnotlastforeverbutwillintimebedissolvedandthisisthedissolutioninplantsthatgrowintheearthaswellasinanimalsthatmoveontheearthssurfacefertilityandsterilityofsoulandbodyoccurwhenthecircumferencesofthecirclesofeacharecompletedwhichinshortlivedexistencespassoverashortspaceandinlonglivedonesoveralongspacebuttotheknowledgeofhumanfecundityandsterilityallthewisdomandeducationofyourrulerswillnotattainthelawswhichregulatethemwillnotbediscoveredbyanintelligencewhichisalloyedwithsensebutwillescapethemandtheywillbringchildrenintotheworldwhentheyoughtnotnowthatwhichisofdivinebirthhasaperiodwhichiscontainedinaperfectnumberieacyclicalnumbersuchaswhichisequaltothesumofitsdivisorssothatwhenthecircleortimerepresentedbyiscompletedthelessertimesorrotationsrepresentedbyarealsocompletedbuttheperiodofhumanbirthiscomprehendedinanumberinwhichfirstincrementsbyinvolutionandevolutionorsquaredandcubedobtainingthreeintervalsandfourtermsoflikeandunlikewaxingandwaningnumbersmakeallthetermscommensurableandagreeabletooneanotherprobablythenumbersofwhichthethreefirstthesidesofthepythagoreantrianglethetermswillthenbecubedcubedcubedwhichtogethercubedthebaseofthesewithathirdaddedwhencombinedwithfiveandraisedtothethirdpowerfurnishestwoharmoniesthefirstasquarewhichisahundredtimesasgreatxorthefirstasquarewhichisxthewholenumberwillthenbeasquareofandanoblongofbyandtheotherafigurehavingonesideequaltotheformerbutoblongconsistingofahundrednumberssquareduponrationaldiametersofasquareieomittingfractionsthesideofwhichisfivexxeachofthembeinglessbyonethantheperfectsquarewhichincludesthefractionsscorlessbyorconsistingoftwonumberssquareduponirrationaldiametersetcforotherexplanationsofthepassageseeintroductiontwoperfectsquaresofirrationaldiametersofasquarethesideofwhichisfiveandahundredcubesofthreexnowthisnumberrepresentsageometricalfigurewhichhascontroloverthegoodandevilofbirthsforwhenyourguardiansareignorantofthelawofbirthsandunitebrideandbridegroomoutofseasonthechildrenwillnotbegoodlyorfortunateandthoughonlythebestofthemwillbeappointedbytheirpredecessorsstilltheywillbeunworthytoholdtheirfathersplacesandwhentheycomeintopowerasguardianstheywillsoonbefoundtofailintakingcareofusthemusesfirstbyundervaluingmusicwhichneglectwillsoonextendtogymnasticandhencetheyoungmenofyourstatewillbelesscultivatedinthesucceedinggenerationrulerswillbeappointedwhohavelosttheguardianpoweroftestingthemetalofyourdifferentraceswhichlikehesiodsareofgoldandsilverandbrassandironandsoironwillbemingledwithsilverandbrasswithgoldandhencetherewillarisedissimilarityandinequalityandirregularitywhichalwaysandinallplacesarecausesofhatredandwarthisthemusesaffirmtobethestockfromwhichdiscordhassprungwhereverarisingandthisistheiranswertousyesandwemayassumethattheyanswertrulywhyyesisaidofcoursetheyanswertrulyhowcanthemusesspeakfalselyandwhatdothemusessaynextwhendiscordarosethenthetworacesweredrawndifferentwaystheironandbrassfelltoacquiringmoneyandlandandhousesandgoldandsilverbutthegoldandsilverracesnotwantingmoneybuthavingthetruerichesintheirownnatureinclinedtowardsvirtueandtheancientorderofthingstherewasabattlebetweenthemandatlasttheyagreedtodistributetheirlandandhousesamongindividualownersandtheyenslavedtheirfriendsandmaintainerswhomtheyhadformerlyprotectedintheconditionoffreemenandmadeofthemsubjectsandservantsandtheythemselveswereengagedinwarandinkeepingawatchagainstthemibelievethatyouhaverightlyconceivedtheoriginofthechangeandthenewgovernmentwhichthusariseswillbeofaformintermediatebetweenoligarchyandaristocracyverytruesuchwillbethechangeandafterthechangehasbeenmadehowwilltheyproceedclearlythenewstatebeinginameanbetweenoligarchyandtheperfectstatewillpartlyfollowoneandpartlytheotherandwillalsohavesomepeculiaritiestruehesaidinthehonourgiventorulersintheabstinenceofthewarriorclassfromagriculturehandicraftsandtradeingeneralintheinstitutionofcommonmealsandintheattentionpaidtogymnasticsandmilitarytraininginalltheserespectsthisstatewillresembletheformertruebutinthefearofadmittingphilosopherstopowerbecausetheyarenolongertobehadsimpleandearnestbutaremadeupofmixedelementsandinturningfromthemtopassionateandlesscomplexcharacterswhoarebynaturefittedforwarratherthanpeaceandinthevaluesetbythemuponmilitarystratagemsandcontrivancesandinthewagingofeverlastingwarsthisstatewillbeforthemostpartpeculiaryesyesisaidandmenofthisstampwillbecovetousofmoneylikethosewholiveinoligarchiestheywillhaveafiercesecretlongingaftergoldandsilverwhichtheywillhoardindarkplaceshavingmagazinesandtreasuriesoftheirownforthedepositandconcealmentofthemalsocastleswhicharejustnestsfortheireggsandinwhichtheywillspendlargesumsontheirwivesoronanyotherswhomtheypleasethatismosttruehesaidandtheyaremiserlybecausetheyhavenomeansofopenlyacquiringthemoneywhichtheyprizetheywillspendthatwhichisanothermansonthegratificationoftheirdesiresstealingtheirpleasuresandrunningawaylikechildrenfromthelawtheirfathertheyhavebeenschoolednotbygentleinfluencesbutbyforcefortheyhaveneglectedherwhoisthetruemusethecompanionofreasonandphilosophyandhavehonouredgymnasticmorethanmusicundoubtedlyhesaidtheformofgovernmentwhichyoudescribeisamixtureofgoodandevilwhythereisamixtureisaidbutonethingandonethingonlyispredominantlyseenthespiritofcontentionandambitionandtheseareduetotheprevalenceofthepassionateorspiritedelementassuredlyhesaidsuchistheoriginandsuchthecharacterofthisstatewhichhasbeendescribedinoutlineonlythemoreperfectexecutionwasnotrequiredforasketchisenoughtoshowthetypeofthemostperfectlyjustandmostperfectlyunjustandtogothroughallthestatesandallthecharactersofmenomittingnoneofthemwouldbeaninterminablelabourverytrueherepliednowwhatmananswerstothisformofgovernmenthowdidhecomeintobeingandwhatishelikeithinksaidadeimantusthatinthespiritofcontentionwhichcharacteriseshimheisnotunlikeourfriendglauconperhapsisaidhemaybelikehiminthatonepointbutthereareotherrespectsinwhichheisverydifferentinwhatrespectsheshouldhavemoreofselfassertionandbelesscultivatedandyetafriendofcultureandheshouldbeagoodlistenerbutnospeakersuchapersonisapttoberoughwithslavesunliketheeducatedmanwhoistooproudforthatandhewillalsobecourteoustofreemenandremarkablyobedienttoauthorityheisaloverofpowerandaloverofhonourclaimingtobearulernotbecauseheiseloquentoronanygroundofthatsortbutbecauseheisasoldierandhasperformedfeatsofarmsheisalsoaloverofgymnasticexercisesandofthechaseyesthatisthetypeofcharacterwhichanswerstotimocracysuchanonewilldespiserichesonlywhenheisyoungbutashegetsolderhewillbemoreandmoreattractedtothembecausehehasapieceoftheavariciousnatureinhimandisnotsinglemindedtowardsvirtuehavinglosthisbestguardianwhowasthatsaidadeimantusphilosophyisaidtemperedwithmusicwhocomesandtakesupherabodeinamanandistheonlysaviourofhisvirtuethroughoutlifegoodhesaidsuchisaidisthetimocraticalyouthandheislikethetimocraticalstateexactlyhisoriginisasfollowsheisoftentheyoungsonofabravefatherwhodwellsinanillgovernedcityofwhichhedeclinesthehonoursandofficesandwillnotgotolaworexerthimselfinanywaybutisreadytowaivehisrightsinorderthathemayescapetroubleandhowdoesthesoncomeintobeingthecharacterofthesonbeginstodevelopewhenhehearshismothercomplainingthatherhusbandhasnoplaceinthegovernmentofwhichtheconsequenceisthatshehasnoprecedenceamongotherwomenfurtherwhensheseesherhusbandnotveryeageraboutmoneyandinsteadofbattlingandrailinginthelawcourtsorassemblytakingwhateverhappenstohimquietlyandwhensheobservesthathisthoughtsalwayscentreinhimselfwhilehetreatsherwithveryconsiderableindifferencesheisannoyedandsaystohersonthathisfatherisonlyhalfamanandfartooeasygoingaddingalltheothercomplaintsaboutherownilltreatmentwhichwomenaresofondofrehearsingyessaidadeimantustheygiveusplentyofthemandtheircomplaintsaresolikethemselvesandyouknowisaidthattheoldservantsalsowhoaresupposedtobeattachedtothefamilyfromtimetotimetalkprivatelyinthesamestraintothesonandiftheyseeanyonewhoowesmoneytohisfatheroriswronginghiminanywayandhefailstoprosecutethemtheytelltheyouththatwhenhegrowsuphemustretaliateuponpeopleofthissortandbemoreofamanthanhisfatherhehasonlytowalkabroadandhehearsandseesthesamesortofthingthosewhodotheirownbusinessinthecityarecalledsimpletonsandheldinnoesteemwhilethebusybodiesarehonouredandapplaudedtheresultisthattheyoungmanhearingandseeingallthesethingshearingtoothewordsofhisfatherandhavinganearerviewofhiswayoflifeandmakingcomparisonsofhimandothersisdrawnoppositewayswhilehisfatheriswateringandnourishingtherationalprincipleinhissoultheothersareencouragingthepassionateandappetitiveandhebeingnotoriginallyofabadnaturebuthavingkeptbadcompanyisatlastbroughtbytheirjointinfluencetoamiddlepointandgivesupthekingdomwhichiswithinhimtothemiddleprincipleofcontentiousnessandpassionandbecomesarrogantandambitiousyouseemtometohavedescribedhisoriginperfectlythenwehavenowisaidthesecondformofgovernmentandthesecondtypeofcharacterwehavenextletuslookatanothermanwhoasaeschylussaysissetoveragainstanotherstateorratherasourplanrequiresbeginwiththestatebyallmeansibelievethatoligarchyfollowsnextinorderandwhatmannerofgovernmentdoyoutermoligarchyagovernmentrestingonavaluationofpropertyinwhichtherichhavepowerandthepoormanisdeprivedofitiunderstandherepliedoughtinottobeginbydescribinghowthechangefromtimocracytooligarchyarisesyeswellisaidnoeyesarerequiredinordertoseehowtheonepassesintotheotherhowtheaccumulationofgoldinthetreasuryofprivateindividualsistheruinoftimocracytheyinventillegalmodesofexpenditureforwhatdotheyortheirwivescareaboutthelawyesindeedandthenoneseeinganothergrowrichseekstorivalhimandthusthegreatmassofthecitizensbecomeloversofmoneylikelyenoughandsotheygrowricherandricherandthemoretheythinkofmakingafortunethelesstheythinkofvirtueforwhenrichesandvirtueareplacedtogetherinthescalesofthebalancetheonealwaysrisesastheotherfallstrueandinproportionasrichesandrichmenarehonouredinthestatevirtueandthevirtuousaredishonouredclearlyandwhatishonourediscultivatedandthatwhichhasnohonourisneglectedthatisobviousandsoatlastinsteadoflovingcontentionandglorymenbecomeloversoftradeandmoneytheyhonourandlookuptotherichmanandmakearulerofhimanddishonourthepoormantheydosotheynextproceedtomakealawwhichfixesasumofmoneyasthequalificationofcitizenshipthesumishigherinoneplaceandlowerinanotherastheoligarchyismoreorlessexclusiveandtheyallownoonewhosepropertyfallsbelowtheamountfixedtohaveanyshareinthegovernmentthesechangesintheconstitutiontheyeffectbyforceofarmsifintimidationhasnotalreadydonetheirworkverytrueandthisspeakinggenerallyisthewayinwhicholigarchyisestablishedyeshesaidbutwhatarethecharacteristicsofthisformofgovernmentandwhatarethedefectsofwhichwewerespeakingfirstofallisaidconsiderthenatureofthequalificationjustthinkwhatwouldhappenifpilotsweretobechosenaccordingtotheirpropertyandapoormanwererefusedpermissiontosteereventhoughhewereabetterpilotyoumeanthattheywouldshipwreckyesandisnotthistrueofthegovernmentofanythingishouldimaginesoexceptacityorwouldyouincludeacitynayhesaidthecaseofacityisthestrongestofallinasmuchastheruleofacityisthegreatestandmostdifficultofallthisthenwillbethefirstgreatdefectofoligarchyclearlyandhereisanotherdefectwhichisquiteasbadwhatdefecttheinevitabledivisionsuchastateisnotonebuttwostatestheoneofpoortheotherofrichmenandtheyarelivingonthesamespotandalwaysconspiringagainstoneanotherthatsurelyisatleastasbadanotherdiscreditablefeatureisthatforalikereasontheyareincapableofcarryingonanywareithertheyarmthemultitudeandthentheyaremoreafraidofthemthanoftheenemyoriftheydonotcallthemoutinthehourofbattletheyareoligarchsindeedfewtofightastheyarefewtoruleandatthesametimetheirfondnessformoneymakesthemunwillingtopaytaxeshowdiscreditableandaswesaidbeforeundersuchaconstitutionthesamepersonshavetoomanycallingstheyarehusbandmentradesmenwarriorsallinonedoesthatlookwellanythingbutwellthereisanotherevilwhichisperhapsthegreatestofallandtowhichthisstatefirstbeginstobeliablewhatevilamanmaysellallthathehasandanothermayacquirehispropertyyetafterthesalehemaydwellinthecityofwhichheisnolongerapartbeingneithertradernorartisannorhorsemannorhoplitebutonlyapoorhelplesscreatureyesthatisanevilwhichalsofirstbeginsinthisstatetheeviliscertainlynotpreventedthereforoligarchieshaveboththeextremesofgreatwealthandutterpovertytruebutthinkagaininhiswealthydayswhilehewasspendinghismoneywasamanofthissortawhitmoregoodtothestateforthepurposesofcitizenshipordidheonlyseemtobeamemberoftherulingbodyalthoughintruthhewasneitherrulernorsubjectbutjustaspendthriftasyousayheseemedtobearulerbutwasonlyaspendthriftmaywenotsaythatthisisthedroneinthehousewhoislikethedroneinthehoneycombandthattheoneistheplagueofthecityastheotherisofthehivejustsosocratesandgodhasmadetheflyingdronesadeimantusallwithoutstingswhereasofthewalkingdroneshehasmadesomewithoutstingsbutothershavedreadfulstingsofthestinglessclassarethosewhointheiroldageendaspaupersofthestingerscomeallthecriminalclassastheyaretermedmosttruehesaidclearlythenwheneveryouseepaupersinastatesomewhereinthatneighborhoodtherearehiddenawaythievesandcutpursesandrobbersoftemplesandallsortsofmalefactorsclearlywellisaidandinoligarchicalstatesdoyounotfindpaupersyeshesaidnearlyeverybodyisapauperwhoisnotarulerandmaywebesoboldastoaffirmthattherearealsomanycriminalstobefoundinthemrogueswhohavestingsandwhomtheauthoritiesarecarefultorestrainbyforcecertainlywemaybesoboldtheexistenceofsuchpersonsistobeattributedtowantofeducationilltrainingandanevilconstitutionofthestatetruesuchthenistheformandsucharetheevilsofoligarchyandtheremaybemanyotherevilsverylikelythenoligarchyortheformofgovernmentinwhichtherulersareelectedfortheirwealthmaynowbedismissedletusnextproceedtoconsiderthenatureandoriginoftheindividualwhoanswerstothisstatebyallmeansdoesnotthetimocraticalmanchangeintotheoligarchicalonthiswisehowatimearriveswhentherepresentativeoftimocracyhasasonatfirsthebeginsbyemulatinghisfatherandwalkinginhisfootstepsbutpresentlyheseeshimofasuddenfounderingagainstthestateasuponasunkenreefandheandallthathehasislosthemayhavebeenageneralorsomeotherhighofficerwhoisbroughttotrialunderaprejudiceraisedbyinformersandeitherputtodeathorexiledordeprivedoftheprivilegesofacitizenandallhispropertytakenfromhimnothingmorelikelyandthesonhasseenandknownallthisheisaruinedmanandhisfearhastaughthimtoknockambitionandpassionheadforemostfromhisbosomsthronehumbledbypovertyhetakestomoneymakingandbymeanandmiserlysavingsandhardworkgetsafortunetogetherisnotsuchanonelikelytoseattheconcupiscentandcovetouselementonthevacantthroneandtosufferittoplaythegreatkingwithinhimgirtwithtiaraandchainandscimitarmosttrueherepliedandwhenhehasmadereasonandspiritsitdownonthegroundobedientlyoneithersideoftheirsovereignandtaughtthemtoknowtheirplacehecompelstheonetothinkonlyofhowlessersumsmaybeturnedintolargeronesandwillnotallowtheothertoworshipandadmireanythingbutrichesandrichmenortobeambitiousofanythingsomuchastheacquisitionofwealthandthemeansofacquiringitofallchangeshesaidthereisnonesospeedyorsosureastheconversionoftheambitiousyouthintotheavariciousoneandtheavariciousisaidistheoligarchicalyouthyeshesaidatanyratetheindividualoutofwhomhecameislikethestateoutofwhicholigarchycameletusthenconsiderwhetherthereisanylikenessbetweenthemverygoodfirstthentheyresembleoneanotherinthevaluewhichtheysetuponwealthcertainlyalsointheirpenuriouslaboriouscharactertheindividualonlysatisfieshisnecessaryappetitesandconfineshisexpendituretothemhisotherdesireshesubduesundertheideathattheyareunprofitabletrueheisashabbyfellowwhosavessomethingoutofeverythingandmakesapurseforhimselfandthisisthesortofmanwhomthevulgarapplaudishenotatrueimageofthestatewhichherepresentsheappearstometobesoatanyratemoneyishighlyvaluedbyhimaswellasbythestateyouseethatheisnotamanofcultivationisaidiimaginenothesaidhadhebeeneducatedhewouldneverhavemadeablindgoddirectorofhischorusorgivenhimchiefhonourexcellentisaidyetconsidermustwenotfurtheradmitthatowingtothiswantofcultivationtherewillbefoundinhimdronelikedesiresasofpauperandroguewhichareforciblykeptdownbyhisgeneralhabitoflifetruedoyouknowwhereyouwillhavetolookifyouwanttodiscoverhisroguerieswheremustilookyoushouldseehimwherehehassomegreatopportunityofactingdishonestlyasintheguardianshipofanorphanayeitwillbeclearenoughthenthatinhisordinarydealingswhichgivehimareputationforhonestyhecoerceshisbadpassionsbyanenforcedvirtuenotmakingthemseethattheyarewrongortamingthembyreasonbutbynecessityandfearconstrainingthemandbecausehetremblesforhispossessionstobesureyesindeedmydearfriendbutyouwillfindthatthenaturaldesiresofthedronecommonlyexistinhimallthesamewheneverhehastospendwhatisnothisownyesandtheywillbestronginhimtoothemanthenwillbeatwarwithhimselfhewillbetwomenandnotonebutingeneralhisbetterdesireswillbefoundtoprevailoverhisinferioronestrueforthesereasonssuchanonewillbemorerespectablethanmostpeopleyetthetruevirtueofaunanimousandharmonioussoulwillfleefarawayandnevercomenearhimishouldexpectsoandsurelythemiserindividuallywillbeanignoblecompetitorinastateforanyprizeofvictoryorotherobjectofhonourableambitionhewillnotspendhismoneyinthecontestforglorysoafraidisheofawakeninghisexpensiveappetitesandinvitingthemtohelpandjoininthestruggleintrueoligarchicalfashionhefightswithasmallpartonlyofhisresourcesandtheresultcommonlyisthathelosestheprizeandsaveshismoneyverytruecanweanylongerdoubtthenthatthemiserandmoneymakeranswerstotheoligarchicalstatetherecanbenodoubtnextcomesdemocracyofthistheoriginandnaturehavestilltobeconsideredbyusandthenwewillenquireintothewaysofthedemocraticmanandbringhimupforjudgmentthathesaidisourmethodwellisaidandhowdoesthechangefromoligarchyintodemocracyariseisitnotonthiswisethegoodatwhichsuchastateaimsistobecomeasrichaspossibleadesirewhichisinsatiablewhatthentherulersbeingawarethattheirpowerrestsupontheirwealthrefusetocurtailbylawtheextravaganceofthespendthriftyouthbecausetheygainbytheirruintheytakeinterestfromthemandbuyuptheirestatesandthusincreasetheirownwealthandimportancetobesuretherecanbenodoubtthattheloveofwealthandthespiritofmoderationcannotexisttogetherincitizensofthesamestatetoanyconsiderableextentoneortheotherwillbedisregardedthatistolerablyclearandinoligarchicalstatesfromthegeneralspreadofcarelessnessandextravagancemenofgoodfamilyhaveoftenbeenreducedtobeggaryyesoftenandstilltheyremaininthecitytheretheyarereadytostingandfullyarmedandsomeofthemowemoneysomehaveforfeitedtheircitizenshipathirdclassareinbothpredicamentsandtheyhateandconspireagainstthosewhohavegottheirpropertyandagainsteverybodyelseandareeagerforrevolutionthatistrueontheotherhandthemenofbusinessstoopingastheywalkandpretendingnoteventoseethosewhomtheyhavealreadyruinedinserttheirstingthatistheirmoneyintosomeoneelsewhoisnotonhisguardagainstthemandrecovertheparentsummanytimesovermultipliedintoafamilyofchildrenandsotheymakedroneandpaupertoaboundinthestateyeshesaidthereareplentyofthemthatiscertaintheevilblazesuplikeafireandtheywillnotextinguishiteitherbyrestrictingamansuseofhisownpropertyorbyanotherremedywhatotheronewhichisthenextbestandhastheadvantageofcompellingthecitizenstolooktotheircharacterslettherebeageneralrulethateveryoneshallenterintovoluntarycontractsathisownriskandtherewillbelessofthisscandalousmoneymakingandtheevilsofwhichwewerespeakingwillbegreatlylessenedinthestateyestheywillbegreatlylessenedatpresentthegovernorsinducedbythemotiveswhichihavenamedtreattheirsubjectsbadlywhiletheyandtheiradherentsespeciallytheyoungmenofthegoverningclassarehabituatedtoleadalifeofluxuryandidlenessbothofbodyandmindtheydonothingandareincapableofresistingeitherpleasureorpainverytruetheythemselvescareonlyformakingmoneyandareasindifferentasthepaupertothecultivationofvirtueyesquiteasindifferentsuchisthestateofaffairswhichprevailsamongthemandoftenrulersandtheirsubjectsmaycomeinoneanotherswaywhetheronajourneyoronsomeotheroccasionofmeetingonapilgrimageoramarchasfellowsoldiersorfellowsailorsayeandtheymayobservethebehaviourofeachotherintheverymomentofdangerforwheredangeristhereisnofearthatthepoorwillbedespisedbytherichandverylikelythewirysunburntpoormanmaybeplacedinbattleatthesideofawealthyonewhohasneverspoilthiscomplexionandhasplentyofsuperfluousfleshwhenheseessuchanonepuffingandathiswitsendhowcanheavoiddrawingtheconclusionthatmenlikehimareonlyrichbecausenoonehasthecouragetodespoilthemandwhentheymeetinprivatewillnotpeoplebesayingtooneanotherourwarriorsarenotgoodformuchyeshesaidiamquiteawarethatthisistheirwayoftalkingandasinabodywhichisdiseasedtheadditionofatouchfromwithoutmaybringonillnessandsometimesevenwhenthereisnoexternalprovocationacommotionmayarisewithininthesamewaywhereverthereisweaknessinthestatethereisalsolikelytobeillnessofwhichtheoccasionmaybeveryslighttheonepartyintroducingfromwithouttheiroligarchicaltheothertheirdemocraticalalliesandthenthestatefallssickandisatwarwithherselfandmaybeattimesdistractedevenwhenthereisnoexternalcauseyessurelyandthendemocracycomesintobeingafterthepoorhaveconqueredtheiropponentsslaughteringsomeandbanishingsomewhiletotheremaindertheygiveanequalshareoffreedomandpowerandthisistheformofgovernmentinwhichthemagistratesarecommonlyelectedbylotyeshesaidthatisthenatureofdemocracywhethertherevolutionhasbeeneffectedbyarmsorwhetherfearhascausedtheoppositepartytowithdrawandnowwhatistheirmanneroflifeandwhatsortofagovernmenthavetheyforasthegovernmentissuchwillbethemanclearlyhesaidinthefirstplacearetheynotfreeandisnotthecityfulloffreedomandfranknessamanmaysayanddowhathelikestissaidsoherepliedandwherefreedomistheindividualisclearlyabletoorderforhimselfhisownlifeashepleasesclearlytheninthiskindofstatetherewillbethegreatestvarietyofhumannaturestherewillthisthenseemslikelytobethefairestofstatesbeinglikeanembroideredrobewhichisspangledwitheverysortofflowerandjustaswomenandchildrenthinkavarietyofcolourstobeofallthingsmostcharmingsotherearemanymentowhomthisstatewhichisspangledwiththemannersandcharactersofmankindwillappeartobethefairestofstatesyesyesmygoodsirandtherewillbenobetterinwhichtolookforagovernmentwhybecauseofthelibertywhichreignstheretheyhaveacompleteassortmentofconstitutionsandhewhohasamindtoestablishastateaswehavebeendoingmustgotoademocracyashewouldtoabazaaratwhichtheysellthemandpickouttheonethatsuitshimthenwhenhehasmadehischoicehemayfoundhisstatehewillbesuretohavepatternsenoughandtherebeingnonecessityisaidforyoutogoverninthisstateevenifyouhavethecapacityortobegovernedunlessyoulikeorgotowarwhentherestgotowarortobeatpeacewhenothersareatpeaceunlessyouaresodisposedtherebeingnonecessityalsobecausesomelawforbidsyoutoholdofficeorbeadicastthatyoushouldnotholdofficeorbeadicastifyouhaveafancyisnotthisawayoflifewhichforthemomentissupremelydelightfulforthemomentyesandisnottheirhumanitytothecondemnedinsomecasesquitecharminghaveyounotobservedhowinademocracymanypersonsalthoughtheyhavebeensentencedtodeathorexilejuststaywheretheyareandwalkabouttheworldthegentlemanparadeslikeaheroandnobodyseesorcaresyesherepliedmanyandmanyaoneseetooisaidtheforgivingspiritofdemocracyandthedontcareabouttriflesandthedisregardwhichsheshowsofallthefineprincipleswhichwesolemnlylaiddownatthefoundationofthecityaswhenwesaidthatexceptinthecaseofsomerarelygiftednaturethereneverwillbeagoodmanwhohasnotfromhischildhoodbeenusedtoplayamidthingsofbeautyandmakeofthemajoyandastudyhowgrandlydoesshetrampleallthesefinenotionsofoursunderherfeetnevergivingathoughttothepursuitswhichmakeastatesmanandpromotingtohonouranyonewhoprofessestobethepeoplesfriendyessheisofanoblespirittheseandotherkindredcharacteristicsarepropertodemocracywhichisacharmingformofgovernmentfullofvarietyanddisorderanddispensingasortofequalitytoequalsandunequalsalikeweknowherwellconsidernowisaidwhatmannerofmantheindividualisorratherconsiderasinthecaseofthestatehowhecomesintobeingverygoodhesaidisnotthisthewayheisthesonofthemiserlyandoligarchicalfatherwhohastrainedhiminhisownhabitsexactlyandlikehisfatherhekeepsunderbyforcethepleasureswhichareofthespendingandnotofthegettingsortbeingthosewhicharecalledunnecessaryobviouslywouldyoulikeforthesakeofclearnesstodistinguishwhicharethenecessaryandwhicharetheunnecessarypleasuresishouldarenotnecessarypleasuresthoseofwhichwecannotgetridandofwhichthesatisfactionisabenefittousandtheyarerightlycalledsobecauseweareframedbynaturetodesirebothwhatisbeneficialandwhatisnecessaryandcannothelpittruewearenotwrongthereforeincallingthemnecessarywearenotandthedesiresofwhichamanmaygetridifhetakespainsfromhisyouthupwardsofwhichthepresencemoreoverdoesnogoodandinsomecasesthereverseofgoodshallwenotberightinsayingthatalltheseareunnecessaryyescertainlysupposeweselectanexampleofeitherkindinorderthatwemayhaveageneralnotionofthemverygoodwillnotthedesireofeatingthatisofsimplefoodandcondimentsinsofarastheyarerequiredforhealthandstrengthbeofthenecessaryclassthatiswhatishouldsupposethepleasureofeatingisnecessaryintwowaysitdoesusgoodanditisessentialtothecontinuanceoflifeyesbutthecondimentsareonlynecessaryinsofarastheyaregoodforhealthcertainlyandthedesirewhichgoesbeyondthisofmoredelicatefoodorotherluxurieswhichmightgenerallybegotridofifcontrolledandtrainedinyouthandishurtfultothebodyandhurtfultothesoulinthepursuitofwisdomandvirtuemayberightlycalledunnecessaryverytruemaywenotsaythatthesedesiresspendandthattheothersmakemoneybecausetheyconducetoproductioncertainlyandofthepleasuresofloveandallotherpleasuresthesameholdsgoodtrueandthedroneofwhomwespokewashewhowassurfeitedinpleasuresanddesiresofthissortandwastheslaveoftheunnecessarydesireswhereashewhowassubjecttothenecessaryonlywasmiserlyandoligarchicalverytrueagainletusseehowthedemocraticalmangrowsoutoftheoligarchicalthefollowingasisuspectiscommonlytheprocesswhatistheprocesswhenayoungmanwhohasbeenbroughtupaswewerejustnowdescribinginavulgarandmiserlywayhastasteddroneshoneyandhascometoassociatewithfierceandcraftynatureswhoareabletoprovideforhimallsortsofrefinementsandvarietiesofpleasurethenasyoumayimaginethechangewillbeginoftheoligarchicalprinciplewithinhimintothedemocraticalinevitablyandasinthecitylikewashelpinglikeandthechangewaseffectedbyanalliancefromwithoutassistingonedivisionofthecitizenssotootheyoungmanischangedbyaclassofdesirescomingfromwithouttoassistthedesireswithinhimthatwhichisakinandalikeagainhelpingthatwhichisakinandalikecertainlyandiftherebeanyallywhichaidstheoligarchicalprinciplewithinhimwhethertheinfluenceofafatherorofkindredadvisingorrebukinghimthentherearisesinhissoulafactionandanoppositefactionandhegoestowarwithhimselfitmustbesoandtherearetimeswhenthedemocraticalprinciplegiveswaytotheoligarchicalandsomeofhisdesiresdieandothersarebanishedaspiritofreverenceentersintotheyoungmanssoulandorderisrestoredyeshesaidthatsometimeshappensandthenagainaftertheolddesireshavebeendrivenoutfreshonesspringupwhichareakintothemandbecausehetheirfatherdoesnotknowhowtoeducatethemwaxfierceandnumerousyeshesaidthatisapttobethewaytheydrawhimtohisoldassociatesandholdingsecretintercoursewiththembreedandmultiplyinhimverytrueatlengththeyseizeuponthecitadeloftheyoungmanssoulwhichtheyperceivetobevoidofallaccomplishmentsandfairpursuitsandtruewordswhichmaketheirabodeinthemindsofmenwhoaredeartothegodsandaretheirbestguardiansandsentinelsnonebetterfalseandboastfulconceitsandphrasesmountupwardsandtaketheirplacetheyarecertaintodosoandsotheyoungmanreturnsintothecountryofthelotuseatersandtakesuphisdwellingthereinthefaceofallmenandifanyhelpbesentbyhisfriendstotheoligarchicalpartofhimtheaforesaidvainconceitsshutthegateofthekingsfastnessandtheywillneitherallowtheembassyitselftoenternorifprivateadvisersofferthefatherlycounseloftheagedwilltheylistentothemorreceivethemthereisabattleandtheygainthedayandthenmodestywhichtheycallsillinessisignominiouslythrustintoexilebythemandtemperancewhichtheynicknameunmanlinessistrampledinthemireandcastforththeypersuadementhatmoderationandorderlyexpenditurearevulgarityandmeannessandsobythehelpofarabbleofevilappetitestheydrivethembeyondtheborderyeswithawillandwhentheyhaveemptiedandsweptcleanthesoulofhimwhoisnowintheirpowerandwhoisbeinginitiatedbythemingreatmysteriesthenextthingistobringbacktotheirhouseinsolenceandanarchyandwasteandimpudenceinbrightarrayhavinggarlandsontheirheadsandagreatcompanywiththemhymningtheirpraisesandcallingthembysweetnamesinsolencetheytermbreedingandanarchylibertyandwastemagnificenceandimpudencecourageandsotheyoungmanpassesoutofhisoriginalnaturewhichwastrainedintheschoolofnecessityintothefreedomandlibertinismofuselessandunnecessarypleasuresyeshesaidthechangeinhimisvisibleenoughafterthishelivesonspendinghismoneyandlabourandtimeonunnecessarypleasuresquiteasmuchasonnecessaryonesbutifhebefortunateandisnottoomuchdisorderedinhiswitswhenyearshaveelapsedandtheheydayofpassionisoversupposingthathethenreadmitsintothecitysomepartoftheexiledvirtuesanddoesnotwhollygivehimselfuptotheirsuccessorsinthatcasehebalanceshispleasuresandlivesinasortofequilibriumputtingthegovernmentofhimselfintothehandsoftheonewhichcomesfirstandwinstheturnandwhenhehashadenoughofthatthenintothehandsofanotherhedespisesnoneofthembutencouragesthemallequallyverytruehesaidneitherdoeshereceiveorletpassintothefortressanytruewordofadviceifanyonesaystohimthatsomepleasuresarethesatisfactionsofgoodandnobledesiresandothersofevildesiresandthatheoughttouseandhonoursomeandchastiseandmastertheotherswheneverthisisrepeatedtohimheshakeshisheadandsaysthattheyareallalikeandthatoneisasgoodasanotheryeshesaidthatisthewaywithhimyesisaidhelivesfromdaytodayindulgingtheappetiteofthehourandsometimesheislappedindrinkandstrainsoftheflutethenhebecomesawaterdrinkerandtriestogetthinthenhetakesaturnatgymnasticssometimesidlingandneglectingeverythingthenoncemorelivingthelifeofaphilosopheroftenheisbusywithpoliticsandstartstohisfeetandsaysanddoeswhatevercomesintohisheadandifheisemulousofanyonewhoisawarrioroffheisinthatdirectionorofmenofbusinessoncemoreinthathislifehasneitherlawnororderandthisdistractedexistencehetermsjoyandblissandfreedomandsohegoesonyesherepliedheisalllibertyandequalityyesisaidhislifeismotleyandmanifoldandanepitomeofthelivesofmanyheanswerstothestatewhichwedescribedasfairandspangledandmanyamanandmanyawomanwilltakehimfortheirpatternandmanyaconstitutionandmanyanexampleofmannersiscontainedinhimjustsolethimthenbesetoveragainstdemocracyhemaytrulybecalledthedemocraticmanletthatbehisplacehesaidlastofallcomesthemostbeautifulofallmanandstatealiketyrannyandthetyrantthesewehavenowtoconsiderquitetruehesaidsaythenmyfriendinwhatmannerdoestyrannyarisethatithasademocraticoriginisevidentclearlyanddoesnottyrannyspringfromdemocracyinthesamemannerasdemocracyfromoligarchyimeanafterasorthowthegoodwhicholigarchyproposedtoitselfandthemeansbywhichitwasmaintainedwasexcessofwealthaminotrightyesandtheinsatiabledesireofwealthandtheneglectofallotherthingsforthesakeofmoneygettingwasalsotheruinofoligarchytrueanddemocracyhasherowngoodofwhichtheinsatiabledesirebringshertodissolutionwhatgoodfreedomirepliedwhichastheytellyouinademocracyisthegloryofthestateandthatthereforeinademocracyalonewillthefreemanofnaturedeigntodwellyesthesayingisineverybodysmouthiwasgoingtoobservethattheinsatiabledesireofthisandtheneglectofotherthingsintroducesthechangeindemocracywhichoccasionsademandfortyrannyhowsowhenademocracywhichisthirstingforfreedomhasevilcupbearerspresidingoverthefeastandhasdrunktoodeeplyofthestrongwineoffreedomthenunlessherrulersareveryamenableandgiveaplentifuldraughtshecallsthemtoaccountandpunishesthemandsaysthattheyarecursedoligarchsyesherepliedaverycommonoccurrenceyesisaidandloyalcitizensareinsultinglytermedbyherslaveswhohugtheirchainsandmenofnaughtshewouldhavesubjectswhoarelikerulersandrulerswhoarelikesubjectsthesearemenafterherownheartwhomshepraisesandhonoursbothinprivateandpublicnowinsuchastatecanlibertyhaveanylimitcertainlynotbydegreestheanarchyfindsawayintoprivatehousesandendsbygettingamongtheanimalsandinfectingthemhowdoyoumeanimeanthatthefathergrowsaccustomedtodescendtothelevelofhissonsandtofearthemandthesonisonalevelwithhisfatherhehavingnorespectorreverenceforeitherofhisparentsandthisishisfreedomandthemeticisequalwiththecitizenandthecitizenwiththemeticandthestrangerisquiteasgoodaseitheryeshesaidthatisthewayandthesearenottheonlyevilsisaidthereareseverallesseronesinsuchastateofsocietythemasterfearsandflattershisscholarsandthescholarsdespisetheirmastersandtutorsyoungandoldareallalikeandtheyoungmanisonalevelwiththeoldandisreadytocompetewithhiminwordordeedandoldmencondescendtotheyoungandarefullofpleasantryandgaietytheyarelothtobethoughtmoroseandauthoritativeandthereforetheyadoptthemannersoftheyoungquitetruehesaidthelastextremeofpopularlibertyiswhentheslaveboughtwithmoneywhethermaleorfemaleisjustasfreeashisorherpurchasernormustiforgettotellofthelibertyandequalityofthetwosexesinrelationtoeachotherwhynotasaeschylussaysutterthewordwhichrisestoourlipsthatiswhatiamdoingirepliedandimustaddthatnoonewhodoesnotknowwouldbelievehowmuchgreateristhelibertywhichtheanimalswhoareunderthedominionofmanhaveinademocracythaninanyotherstatefortrulytheshedogsastheproverbsaysareasgoodastheirshemistressesandthehorsesandasseshaveawayofmarchingalongwithalltherightsanddignitiesoffreemenandtheywillrunatanybodywhocomesintheirwayifhedoesnotleavetheroadclearforthemandallthingsarejustreadytoburstwithlibertywhenitakeacountrywalkhesaidioftenexperiencewhatyoudescribeyouandihavedreamedthesamethingandaboveallisaidandastheresultofallseehowsensitivethecitizensbecometheychafeimpatientlyattheleasttouchofauthorityandatlengthasyouknowtheyceasetocareevenforthelawswrittenorunwrittentheywillhavenooneoverthemyeshesaidiknowittoowellsuchmyfriendisaidisthefairandgloriousbeginningoutofwhichspringstyrannygloriousindeedhesaidbutwhatisthenextsteptheruinofoligarchyistheruinofdemocracythesamediseasemagnifiedandintensifiedbylibertyovermastersdemocracythetruthbeingthattheexcessiveincreaseofanythingoftencausesareactionintheoppositedirectionandthisisthecasenotonlyintheseasonsandinvegetableandanimallifebutaboveallinformsofgovernmenttruetheexcessoflibertywhetherinstatesorindividualsseemsonlytopassintoexcessofslaveryyesthenaturalorderandsotyrannynaturallyarisesoutofdemocracyandthemostaggravatedformoftyrannyandslaveryoutofthemostextremeformoflibertyaswemightexpectthathoweverwasnotasibelieveyourquestionyouratherdesiredtoknowwhatisthatdisorderwhichisgeneratedalikeinoligarchyanddemocracyandistheruinofbothjustsoherepliedwellisaidimeanttorefertotheclassofidlespendthriftsofwhomthemorecourageousaretheleadersandthemoretimidthefollowersthesamewhomwewerecomparingtodronessomestinglessandothershavingstingsaveryjustcomparisonthesetwoclassesaretheplaguesofeverycityinwhichtheyaregeneratedbeingwhatphlegmandbilearetothebodyandthegoodphysicianandlawgiverofthestateoughtlikethewisebeemastertokeepthematadistanceandpreventifpossibletheirevercominginandiftheyhaveanyhowfoundawayinthenheshouldhavethemandtheircellscutoutasspeedilyaspossibleyesbyallmeanshesaidtheninorderthatwemayseeclearlywhatwearedoingletusimaginedemocracytobedividedasindeeditisintothreeclassesforinthefirstplacefreedomcreatesrathermoredronesinthedemocraticthantherewereintheoligarchicalstatethatistrueandinthedemocracytheyarecertainlymoreintensifiedhowsobecauseintheoligarchicalstatetheyaredisqualifiedanddrivenfromofficeandthereforetheycannottrainorgatherstrengthwhereasinademocracytheyarealmosttheentirerulingpowerandwhilethekeenersortspeakandacttherestkeepbuzzingaboutthebemaanddonotsufferawordtobesaidontheothersidehenceindemocraciesalmosteverythingismanagedbythedronesverytruehesaidthenthereisanotherclasswhichisalwaysbeingseveredfromthemasswhatisthattheyaretheorderlyclasswhichinanationoftradersissuretobetherichestnaturallysotheyarethemostsqueezablepersonsandyieldthelargestamountofhoneytothedroneswhyhesaidthereislittletobesqueezedoutofpeoplewhohavelittleandthisiscalledthewealthyclassandthedronesfeeduponthemthatisprettymuchthecasehesaidthepeopleareathirdclassconsistingofthosewhoworkwiththeirownhandstheyarenotpoliticiansandhavenotmuchtoliveuponthiswhenassembledisthelargestandmostpowerfulclassinademocracytruehesaidbutthenthemultitudeisseldomwillingtocongregateunlesstheygetalittlehoneyanddotheynotshareisaiddonottheirleadersdeprivetherichoftheirestatesanddistributethemamongthepeopleatthesametimetakingcaretoreservethelargerpartforthemselveswhyyeshesaidtothatextentthepeopledoshareandthepersonswhosepropertyistakenfromthemarecompelledtodefendthemselvesbeforethepeopleastheybestcanwhatelsecantheydoandthenalthoughtheymayhavenodesireofchangetheotherschargethemwithplottingagainstthepeopleandbeingfriendsofoligarchytrueandtheendisthatwhentheyseethepeoplenotoftheirownaccordbutthroughignoranceandbecausetheyaredeceivedbyinformersseekingtodothemwrongthenatlasttheyareforcedtobecomeoligarchsinrealitytheydonotwishtobebutthestingofthedronestormentsthemandbreedsrevolutioninthemthatisexactlythetruththencomeimpeachmentsandjudgmentsandtrialsofoneanothertruethepeoplehavealwayssomechampionwhomtheysetoverthemandnurseintogreatnessyesthatistheirwaythisandnootheristherootfromwhichatyrantspringswhenhefirstappearsabovegroundheisaprotectoryesthatisquiteclearhowthendoesaprotectorbegintochangeintoatyrantclearlywhenhedoeswhatthemanissaidtodointhetaleofthearcadiantempleoflycaeanzeuswhattalethetaleisthathewhohastastedtheentrailsofasinglehumanvictimmincedupwiththeentrailsofothervictimsisdestinedtobecomeawolfdidyouneverhearitohyesandtheprotectorofthepeopleislikehimhavingamobentirelyathisdisposalheisnotrestrainedfromsheddingthebloodofkinsmenbythefavouritemethodoffalseaccusationhebringsthemintocourtandmurdersthemmakingthelifeofmantodisappearandwithunholytongueandlipstastingthebloodofhisfellowcitizenssomehekillsandothershebanishesatthesametimehintingattheabolitionofdebtsandpartitionoflandsandafterthiswhatwillbehisdestinymusthenoteitherperishatthehandsofhisenemiesorfrombeingamanbecomeawolfthatisatyrantinevitablythisisaidishewhobeginstomakeapartyagainsttherichthesameafterawhileheisdrivenoutbutcomesbackinspiteofhisenemiesatyrantfullgrownthatisclearandiftheyareunabletoexpelhimortogethimcondemnedtodeathbyapublicaccusationtheyconspiretoassassinatehimyeshesaidthatistheirusualwaythencomesthefamousrequestforabodyguardwhichisthedeviceofallthosewhohavegotthusfarintheirtyrannicalcareerletnotthepeoplesfriendastheysaybelosttothemexactlythepeoplereadilyassentalltheirfearsareforhimtheyhavenoneforthemselvesverytrueandwhenamanwhoiswealthyandisalsoaccusedofbeinganenemyofthepeopleseesthisthenmyfriendastheoraclesaidtocroesusbypebblyhermusshorehefleesandrestsnotandisnotashamedtobeacowardandquiterighttoosaidheforifhewerehewouldneverbeashamedagainbutifheiscaughthediesofcourseandhetheprotectorofwhomwespokeistobeseennotlardingtheplainwithhisbulkbuthimselftheoverthrowerofmanystandingupinthechariotofstatewiththereinsinhishandnolongerprotectorbuttyrantabsolutenodoubthesaidandnowletusconsiderthehappinessofthemanandalsoofthestateinwhichacreaturelikehimisgeneratedyeshesaidletusconsiderthatatfirstintheearlydaysofhispowerheisfullofsmilesandhesaluteseveryonewhomhemeetshetobecalledatyrantwhoismakingpromisesinpublicandalsoinprivateliberatingdebtorsanddistributinglandtothepeopleandhisfollowersandwantingtobesokindandgoodtoeveryoneofcoursehesaidbutwhenhehasdisposedofforeignenemiesbyconquestortreatyandthereisnothingtofearfromthemthenheisalwaysstirringupsomewarorotherinorderthatthepeoplemayrequirealeadertobesurehashenotalsoanotherobjectwhichisthattheymaybeimpoverishedbypaymentoftaxesandthuscompelledtodevotethemselvestotheirdailywantsandthereforelesslikelytoconspireagainsthimclearlyandifanyofthemaresuspectedbyhimofhavingnotionsoffreedomandofresistancetohisauthorityhewillhaveagoodpretextfordestroyingthembyplacingthematthemercyoftheenemyandforallthesereasonsthetyrantmustbealwaysgettingupawarhemustnowhebeginstogrowunpopularanecessaryresultthensomeofthosewhojoinedinsettinghimupandwhoareinpowerspeaktheirmindstohimandtooneanotherandthemorecourageousofthemcastinhisteethwhatisbeingdoneyesthatmaybeexpectedandthetyrantifhemeanstorulemustgetridofthemhecannotstopwhilehehasafriendoranenemywhoisgoodforanythinghecannotandthereforehemustlookabouthimandseewhoisvaliantwhoishighmindedwhoiswisewhoiswealthyhappymanheistheenemyofthemallandmustseekoccasionagainstthemwhetherhewillornountilhehasmadeapurgationofthestateyeshesaidandararepurgationyesisaidnotthesortofpurgationwhichthephysiciansmakeofthebodyfortheytakeawaytheworseandleavethebetterpartbuthedoesthereverseifheistoruleisupposethathecannothelphimselfwhatablessedalternativeisaidtobecompelledtodwellonlywiththemanybadandtobebythemhatedornottoliveatallyesthatisthealternativeandthemoredetestablehisactionsaretothecitizensthemoresatellitesandthegreaterdevotioninthemwillherequirecertainlyandwhoarethedevotedbandandwherewillheprocurethemtheywillflocktohimhesaidoftheirownaccordifhepaysthembythedogisaidherearemoredronesofeverysortandfromeverylandyeshesaidtherearebutwillhenotdesiretogetthemonthespothowdoyoumeanhewillrobthecitizensoftheirslaveshewillthensetthemfreeandenroltheminhisbodyguardtobesurehesaidandhewillbeabletotrustthembestofallwhatablessedcreatureisaidmustthistyrantbehehasputtodeaththeothersandhastheseforhistrustedfriendsyeshesaidtheyarequiteofhissortyesisaidandthesearethenewcitizenswhomhehascalledintoexistencewhoadmirehimandarehiscompanionswhilethegoodhateandavoidhimofcourseverilythentragedyisawisethingandeuripidesagreattragedianwhysowhybecauseheistheauthorofthepregnantsayingtyrantsarewisebylivingwiththewiseandheclearlymeanttosaythattheyarethewisewhomthetyrantmakeshiscompanionsyeshesaidandhealsopraisestyrannyasgodlikeandmanyotherthingsofthesamekindaresaidbyhimandbytheotherpoetsandthereforeisaidthetragicpoetsbeingwisemenwillforgiveusandanyotherswholiveafterourmannerifwedonotreceivethemintoourstatebecausetheyaretheeulogistsoftyrannyyeshesaidthosewhohavethewitwilldoubtlessforgiveusbuttheywillcontinuetogotoothercitiesandattractmobsandhirevoicesfairandloudandpersuasiveanddrawthecitiesovertotyranniesanddemocraciesverytruemoreovertheyarepaidforthisandreceivehonourthegreatesthonourasmightbeexpectedfromtyrantsandthenextgreatestfromdemocraciesbutthehighertheyascendourconstitutionhillthemoretheirreputationfailsandseemsunablefromshortnessofbreathtoproceedfurthertruebutwearewanderingfromthesubjectletusthereforereturnandenquirehowthetyrantwillmaintainthatfairandnumerousandvariousandeverchangingarmyofhisifhesaidtherearesacredtreasuresinthecityhewillconfiscateandspendthemandinsofarasthefortunesofattaintedpersonsmaysufficehewillbeabletodiminishthetaxeswhichhewouldotherwisehavetoimposeuponthepeopleandwhenthesefailwhyclearlyhesaidthenheandhisbooncompanionswhethermaleorfemalewillbemaintainedoutofhisfathersestateyoumeantosaythatthepeoplefromwhomhehasderivedhisbeingwillmaintainhimandhiscompanionsyeshesaidtheycannothelpthemselvesbutwhatifthepeopleflyintoapassionandaverthatagrownupsonoughtnottobesupportedbyhisfatherbutthatthefathershouldbesupportedbythesonthefatherdidnotbringhimintobeingorsettlehiminlifeinorderthatwhenhissonbecameamanheshouldhimselfbetheservantofhisownservantsandshouldsupporthimandhisrabbleofslavesandcompanionsbutthathissonshouldprotecthimandthatbyhishelphemightbeemancipatedfromthegovernmentoftherichandaristocraticastheyaretermedandsohebidshimandhiscompanionsdepartjustasanyotherfathermightdriveoutofthehouseariotoussonandhisundesirableassociatesbyheavenhesaidthentheparentwilldiscoverwhatamonsterhehasbeenfosteringinhisbosomandwhenhewantstodrivehimouthewillfindthatheisweakandhissonstrongwhyyoudonotmeantosaythatthetyrantwilluseviolencewhatbeathisfatherifheopposeshimyeshewillhavingfirstdisarmedhimthenheisaparricideandacruelguardianofanagedparentandthisisrealtyrannyaboutwhichtherecanbenolongeramistakeasthesayingisthepeoplewhowouldescapethesmokewhichistheslaveryoffreemenhasfallenintothefirewhichisthetyrannyofslavesthuslibertygettingoutofallorderandreasonpassesintotheharshestandbitterestformofslaverytruehesaidverywellandmaywenotrightlysaythatwehavesufficientlydiscussedthenatureoftyrannyandthemannerofthetransitionfromdemocracytotyrannyyesquiteenoughhesaidbookixlastofallcomesthetyrannicalmanaboutwhomwehaveoncemoretoaskhowisheformedoutofthedemocraticalandhowdoesheliveinhappinessorinmiseryyeshesaidheistheonlyoneremainingthereishoweverisaidapreviousquestionwhichremainsunansweredwhatquestionidonotthinkthatwehaveadequatelydeterminedthenatureandnumberoftheappetitesanduntilthisisaccomplishedtheenquirywillalwaysbeconfusedwellhesaiditisnottoolatetosupplytheomissionverytrueisaidandobservethepointwhichiwanttounderstandcertainoftheunnecessarypleasuresandappetitesiconceivetobeunlawfuleveryoneappearstohavethembutinsomepersonstheyarecontrolledbythelawsandbyreasonandthebetterdesiresprevailoverthemeithertheyarewhollybanishedortheybecomefewandweakwhileinthecaseofotherstheyarestrongerandtherearemoreofthemwhichappetitesdoyoumeanimeanthosewhichareawakewhenthereasoningandhumanandrulingpowerisasleepthenthewildbeastwithinusgorgedwithmeatordrinkstartsupandhavingshakenoffsleepgoesforthtosatisfyhisdesiresandthereisnoconceivablefollyorcrimenotexceptingincestoranyotherunnaturalunionorparricideortheeatingofforbiddenfoodwhichatsuchatimewhenhehaspartedcompanywithallshameandsenseamanmaynotbereadytocommitmosttruehesaidbutwhenamanspulseishealthyandtemperateandwhenbeforegoingtosleephehasawakenedhisrationalpowersandfedthemonnoblethoughtsandenquiriescollectinghimselfinmeditationafterhavingfirstindulgedhisappetitesneithertoomuchnortoolittlebutjustenoughtolaythemtosleepandpreventthemandtheirenjoymentsandpainsfrominterferingwiththehigherprinciplewhichheleavesinthesolitudeofpureabstractionfreetocontemplateandaspiretotheknowledgeoftheunknownwhetherinpastpresentorfuturewhenagainhehasallayedthepassionateelementifhehasaquarrelagainstanyoneisaywhenafterpacifyingthetwoirrationalprinciplesherousesupthethirdwhichisreasonbeforehetakeshisrestthenasyouknowheattainstruthmostnearlyandisleastlikelytobethesportoffantasticandlawlessvisionsiquiteagreeinsayingthisihavebeenrunningintoadigressionbutthepointwhichidesiretonoteisthatinallofuseveningoodmenthereisalawlesswildbeastnaturewhichpeersoutinsleepprayconsiderwhetheriamrightandyouagreewithmeyesiagreeandnowrememberthecharacterwhichweattributedtothedemocraticmanhewassupposedfromhisyouthupwardstohavebeentrainedunderamiserlyparentwhoencouragedthesavingappetitesinhimbutdiscountenancedtheunnecessarywhichaimonlyatamusementandornamenttrueandthenhegotintothecompanyofamorerefinedlicentioussortofpeopleandtakingtoalltheirwantonwaysrushedintotheoppositeextremefromanabhorrenceofhisfathersmeannessatlastbeingabettermanthanhiscorruptorshewasdrawninbothdirectionsuntilhehaltedmidwayandledalifenotofvulgarandslavishpassionbutofwhathedeemedmoderateindulgenceinvariouspleasuresafterthismannerthedemocratwasgeneratedoutoftheoligarchyeshesaidthatwasourviewofhimandissostillandnowisaidyearswillhavepassedawayandyoumustconceivethismansuchasheistohaveasonwhoisbroughtupinhisfathersprinciplesicanimaginehimthenyoumustfurtherimaginethesamethingtohappentothesonwhichhasalreadyhappenedtothefatherheisdrawnintoaperfectlylawlesslifewhichbyhisseducersistermedperfectlibertyandhisfatherandfriendstakepartwithhismoderatedesiresandtheoppositepartyassisttheoppositeonesassoonasthesediremagiciansandtyrantmakersfindthattheyarelosingtheirholdonhimtheycontrivetoimplantinhimamasterpassiontobelordoverhisidleandspendthriftlustsasortofmonstrouswingeddronethatistheonlyimagewhichwilladequatelydescribehimyeshesaidthatistheonlyadequateimageofhimandwhenhisotherlustsamidcloudsofincenseandperfumesandgarlandsandwinesandallthepleasuresofadissolutelifenowletloosecomebuzzingaroundhimnourishingtotheutmostthestingofdesirewhichtheyimplantinhisdronelikenaturethenatlastthislordofthesoulhavingmadnessforthecaptainofhisguardbreaksoutintoafrenzyandifhefindsinhimselfanygoodopinionsorappetitesinprocessofformationandthereisinhimanysenseofshameremainingtothesebetterprinciplesheputsanendandcaststhemforthuntilhehaspurgedawaytemperanceandbroughtinmadnesstothefullyeshesaidthatisthewayinwhichthetyrannicalmanisgeneratedandisnotthisthereasonwhyofoldlovehasbeencalledatyrantishouldnotwonderfurtherisaidhasnotadrunkenmanalsothespiritofatyranthehasandyouknowthatamanwhoisderangedandnotrightinhismindwillfancythatheisabletorulenotonlyovermenbutalsooverthegodsthathewillandthetyrannicalmaninthetruesenseofthewordcomesintobeingwheneitherundertheinfluenceofnatureorhabitorbothhebecomesdrunkenlustfulpassionateomyfriendisnotthatsoassuredlysuchisthemanandsuchishisoriginandnexthowdoeshelivesupposeaspeoplefacetiouslysayyouweretotellmeiimagineisaidatthenextstepinhisprogressthattherewillbefeastsandcarousalsandrevellingsandcourtezansandallthatsortofthingloveisthelordofthehousewithinhimandordersalltheconcernsofhissoulthatiscertainyesandeverydayandeverynightdesiresgrowupmanyandformidableandtheirdemandsaremanytheyareindeedhesaidhisrevenuesifhehasanyaresoonspenttruethencomesdebtandthecuttingdownofhispropertyofcoursewhenhehasnothingleftmustnothisdesirescrowdinginthenestlikeyoungravensbecryingaloudforfoodandhegoadedonbythemandespeciallybylovehimselfwhoisinamannerthecaptainofthemisinafrenzyandwouldfaindiscoverwhomhecandefraudordespoilofhispropertyinorderthathemaygratifythemyesthatissuretobethecasehemusthavemoneynomatterhowifheistoescapehorridpainsandpangshemustandasinhimselftherewasasuccessionofpleasuresandthenewgotthebetteroftheoldandtookawaytheirrightssohebeingyoungerwillclaimtohavemorethanhisfatherandhismotherandifhehasspenthisownshareofthepropertyhewilltakeasliceoftheirsnodoubthewillandifhisparentswillnotgivewaythenhewilltryfirstofalltocheatanddeceivethemverytrueandifhefailsthenhewilluseforceandplunderthemyesprobablyandiftheoldmanandwomanfightfortheirownwhatthenmyfriendwillthecreaturefeelanycompunctionattyrannizingoverthemnayhesaidishouldnotfeelatallcomfortableabouthisparentsbutoheavensadeimantusonaccountofsomenewfangledloveofaharlotwhoisanythingbutanecessaryconnectioncanyoubelievethathewouldstrikethemotherwhoishisancientfriendandnecessarytohisveryexistenceandwouldplaceherundertheauthorityoftheotherwhensheisbroughtunderthesameroofwithherorthatunderlikecircumstanceshewoulddothesametohiswitheredoldfatherfirstandmostindispensableoffriendsforthesakeofsomenewlyfoundbloomingyouthwhoisthereverseofindispensableyesindeedhesaidibelievethathewouldtrulythenisaidatyrannicalsonisablessingtohisfatherandmotherheisindeedherepliedhefirsttakestheirpropertyandwhenthatfailsandpleasuresarebeginningtoswarminthehiveofhissoulthenhebreaksintoahouseorstealsthegarmentsofsomenightlywayfarernextheproceedstoclearatemplemeanwhiletheoldopinionswhichhehadwhenachildandwhichgavejudgmentaboutgoodandevilareoverthrownbythoseotherswhichhavejustbeenemancipatedandarenowthebodyguardofloveandsharehisempiretheseinhisdemocraticdayswhenhewasstillsubjecttothelawsandtohisfatherwereonlyletlooseinthedreamsofsleepbutnowthatheisunderthedominionoflovehebecomesalwaysandinwakingrealitywhathewasthenveryrarelyandinadreamonlyhewillcommitthefoulestmurderoreatforbiddenfoodorbeguiltyofanyotherhorridactloveishistyrantandliveslordlyinhimandlawlesslyandbeinghimselfakingleadshimonasatyrantleadsastatetotheperformanceofanyrecklessdeedbywhichhecanmaintainhimselfandtherabbleofhisassociateswhetherthosewhomevilcommunicationshavebroughtinfromwithoutorthosewhomhehimselfhasallowedtobreakloosewithinhimbyreasonofasimilarevilnatureinhimselfhavewenothereapictureofhiswayoflifeyesindeedhesaidandifthereareonlyafewoftheminthestateandtherestofthepeoplearewelldisposedtheygoawayandbecomethebodyguardormercenarysoldiersofsomeothertyrantwhomayprobablywantthemforawarandifthereisnowartheystayathomeanddomanylittlepiecesofmischiefinthecitywhatsortofmischiefforexampletheyarethethievesburglarscutpursesfootpadsrobbersoftemplesmanstealersofthecommunityoriftheyareabletospeaktheyturninformersandbearfalsewitnessandtakebribesasmallcatalogueofevilseveniftheperpetratorsofthemarefewinnumberyesisaidbutsmallandgreatarecomparativetermsandallthesethingsinthemiseryandevilwhichtheyinflictuponastatedonotcomewithinathousandmilesofthetyrantwhenthisnoxiousclassandtheirfollowersgrownumerousandbecomeconsciousoftheirstrengthassistedbytheinfatuationofthepeopletheychoosefromamongthemselvestheonewhohasmostofthetyrantinhisownsoulandhimtheycreatetheirtyrantyeshesaidandhewillbethemostfittobeatyrantifthepeopleyieldwellandgoodbutiftheyresisthimashebeganbybeatinghisownfatherandmothersonowifhehasthepowerhebeatsthemandwillkeephisdearoldfatherlandormotherlandasthecretanssayinsubjectiontohisyoungretainerswhomhehasintroducedtobetheirrulersandmastersthisistheendofhispassionsanddesiresexactlywhensuchmenareonlyprivateindividualsandbeforetheygetpowerthisistheircharactertheyassociateentirelywiththeirownflatterersorreadytoolsoriftheywantanythingfromanybodytheyintheirturnareequallyreadytobowdownbeforethemtheyprofesseverysortofaffectionforthembutwhentheyhavegainedtheirpointtheyknowthemnomoreyestrulytheyarealwayseitherthemastersorservantsandneverthefriendsofanybodythetyrantnevertastesoftruefreedomorfriendshipcertainlynotandmaywenotrightlycallsuchmentreacherousnoquestionalsotheyareutterlyunjustifwewererightinournotionofjusticeyeshesaidandwewereperfectlyrightletusthensumupinawordisaidthecharacteroftheworstmanheisthewakingrealityofwhatwedreamedmosttrueandthisishewhobeingbynaturemostofatyrantbearsruleandthelongerhelivesthemoreofatyranthebecomesthatiscertainsaidglaucontakinghisturntoanswerandwillnothewhohasbeenshowntobethewickedestbealsothemostmiserableandhewhohastyrannizedlongestandmostmostcontinuallyandtrulymiserablealthoughthismaynotbetheopinionofmeningeneralyeshesaidinevitablyandmustnotthetyrannicalmanbelikethetyrannicalstateandthedemocraticalmanlikethedemocraticalstateandthesameoftheotherscertainlyandasstateistostateinvirtueandhappinesssoismaninrelationtomantobesurethencomparingouroriginalcitywhichwasunderakingandthecitywhichisunderatyranthowdotheystandastovirtuetheyaretheoppositeextremeshesaidforoneistheverybestandtheotheristheveryworsttherecanbenomistakeisaidastowhichiswhichandthereforeiwillatonceenquirewhetheryouwouldarriveatasimilardecisionabouttheirrelativehappinessandmiseryandherewemustnotallowourselvestobepanicstrickenattheapparitionofthetyrantwhoisonlyaunitandmayperhapshaveafewretainersabouthimbutletusgoasweoughtintoeverycornerofthecityandlookallaboutandthenwewillgiveouropinionafairinvitationherepliedandiseeaseveryonemustthatatyrannyisthewretchedestformofgovernmentandtheruleofakingthehappiestandinestimatingthementoomayinotfairlymakealikerequestthatishouldhaveajudgewhosemindcanenterintoandseethroughhumannaturehemustnotbelikeachildwholooksattheoutsideandisdazzledatthepompousaspectwhichthetyrannicalnatureassumestothebeholderbutlethimbeonewhohasaclearinsightmayisupposethatthejudgmentisgiveninthehearingofusallbyonewhoisabletojudgeandhasdweltinthesameplacewithhimandbeenpresentathisdallylifeandknownhiminhisfamilyrelationswherehemaybeseenstrippedofhistragedyattireandagaininthehourofpublicdangerheshalltellusaboutthehappinessandmiseryofthetyrantwhencomparedwithothermenthatagainhesaidisaveryfairproposalshalliassumethatweourselvesareableandexperiencedjudgesandhavebeforenowmetwithsuchapersonweshallthenhavesomeonewhowillanswerourenquiriesbyallmeansletmeaskyounottoforgettheparalleloftheindividualandthestatebearingthisinmindandglancinginturnfromonetotheotherofthemwillyoutellmetheirrespectiveconditionswhatdoyoumeanheaskedbeginningwiththestateirepliedwouldyousaythatacitywhichisgovernedbyatyrantisfreeorenslavednocityhesaidcanbemorecompletelyenslavedandyetasyouseetherearefreemenaswellasmastersinsuchastateyeshesaidiseethatthereareafewbutthepeoplespeakinggenerallyandthebestofthemaremiserablydegradedandenslavedthenifthemanislikethestateisaidmustnotthesameruleprevailhissoulisfullofmeannessandvulgaritythebestelementsinhimareenslavedandthereisasmallrulingpartwhichisalsotheworstandmaddestinevitablyandwouldyousaythatthesoulofsuchanoneisthesoulofafreemanorofaslavehehasthesoulofaslaveinmyopinionandthestatewhichisenslavedunderatyrantisutterlyincapableofactingvoluntarilyutterlyincapableandalsothesoulwhichisunderatyrantiamspeakingofthesoultakenasawholeisleastcapableofdoingwhatshedesiresthereisagadflywhichgoadsherandsheisfulloftroubleandremorsecertainlyandisthecitywhichisunderatyrantrichorpoorpoorandthetyrannicalsoulmustbealwayspoorandinsatiabletrueandmustnotsuchastateandsuchamanbealwaysfulloffearyesindeedisthereanystateinwhichyouwillfindmoreoflamentationandsorrowandgroaningandpaincertainlynotandisthereanymaninwhomyouwillfindmoreofthissortofmiserythaninthetyrannicalmanwhoisinafuryofpassionsanddesiresimpossiblereflectingupontheseandsimilarevilsyouheldthetyrannicalstatetobethemostmiserableofstatesandiwasrighthesaidcertainlyisaidandwhenyouseethesameevilsinthetyrannicalmanwhatdoyousayofhimisaythatheisbyfarthemostmiserableofallmenthereisaidithinkthatyouarebeginningtogowrongwhatdoyoumeanidonotthinkthathehasasyetreachedtheutmostextremeofmiserythenwhoismoremiserableoneofwhomiamabouttospeakwhoisthathewhoisofatyrannicalnatureandinsteadofleadingaprivatelifehasbeencursedwiththefurthermisfortuneofbeingapublictyrantfromwhathasbeensaidigatherthatyouarerightyesirepliedbutinthishighargumentyoushouldbealittlemorecertainandshouldnotconjectureonlyforofallquestionsthisrespectinggoodandevilisthegreatestverytruehesaidletmethenofferyouanillustrationwhichmayithinkthrowalightuponthissubjectwhatisyourillustrationthecaseofrichindividualsincitieswhopossessmanyslavesfromthemyoumayformanideaofthetyrantsconditionfortheybothhaveslavestheonlydifferenceisthathehasmoreslavesyesthatisthedifferenceyouknowthattheylivesecurelyandhavenothingtoapprehendfromtheirservantswhatshouldtheyfearnothingbutdoyouobservethereasonofthisyesthereasonisthatthewholecityisleaguedtogetherfortheprotectionofeachindividualverytrueisaidbutimagineoneoftheseownersthemastersayofsomefiftyslavestogetherwithhisfamilyandpropertyandslavescarriedoffbyagodintothewildernesswheretherearenofreementohelphimwillhenotbeinanagonyoffearlestheandhiswifeandchildrenshouldbeputtodeathbyhisslavesyeshesaidhewillbeintheutmostfearthetimehasarrivedwhenhewillbecompelledtoflatterdiversofhisslavesandmakemanypromisestothemoffreedomandotherthingsmuchagainsthiswillhewillhavetocajolehisownservantsyeshesaidthatwillbetheonlywayofsavinghimselfandsupposethesamegodwhocarriedhimawaytosurroundhimwithneighbourswhowillnotsufferonemantobethemasterofanotherandwhoiftheycouldcatchtheoffenderwouldtakehislifehiscasewillbestillworseifyousupposehimtobeeverywheresurroundedandwatchedbyenemiesandisnotthisthesortofprisoninwhichthetyrantwillbeboundhewhobeingbynaturesuchaswehavedescribedisfullofallsortsoffearsandlustshissoulisdaintyandgreedyandyetaloneofallmeninthecityheisneverallowedtogoonajourneyortoseethethingswhichotherfreemendesiretoseebuthelivesinhisholelikeawomanhiddeninthehouseandisjealousofanyothercitizenwhogoesintoforeignpartsandseesanythingofinterestverytruehesaidandamidevilssuchasthesewillnothewhoisillgovernedinhisownpersonthetyrannicalmanimeanwhomyoujustnowdecidedtobethemostmiserableofallwillnothebeyetmoremiserablewheninsteadofleadingaprivatelifeheisconstrainedbyfortunetobeapublictyranthehastobemasterofotherswhenheisnotmasterofhimselfheislikeadiseasedorparalyticmanwhoiscompelledtopasshislifenotinretirementbutfightingandcombatingwithothermenyeshesaidthesimilitudeismostexactisnothiscaseutterlymiserableanddoesnottheactualtyrantleadaworselifethanhewhoselifeyoudeterminedtobetheworstcertainlyhewhoistherealtyrantwhatevermenmaythinkistherealslaveandisobligedtopractisethegreatestadulationandservilityandtobetheflattererofthevilestofmankindhehasdesireswhichheisutterlyunabletosatisfyandhasmorewantsthananyoneandistrulypoorifyouknowhowtoinspectthewholesoulofhimallhislifelongheisbesetwithfearandisfullofconvulsionsanddistractionsevenasthestatewhichheresemblesandsurelytheresemblanceholdsverytruehesaidmoreoverasweweresayingbeforehegrowsworsefromhavingpowerhebecomesandisofnecessitymorejealousmorefaithlessmoreunjustmorefriendlessmoreimpiousthanhewasatfirstheisthepurveyorandcherisherofeverysortofviceandtheconsequenceisthatheissupremelymiserableandthathemakeseverybodyelseasmiserableashimselfnomanofanysensewilldisputeyourwordscomethenisaidandasthegeneralumpireintheatricalcontestsproclaimstheresultdoyoualsodecidewhoinyouropinionisfirstinthescaleofhappinessandwhosecondandinwhatordertheothersfollowtherearefiveoftheminalltheyaretheroyaltimocraticaloligarchicaldemocraticaltyrannicalthedecisionwillbeeasilygivenherepliedtheyshallbechorusescomingonthestageandimustjudgethemintheorderinwhichtheyenterbythecriterionofvirtueandvicehappinessandmiseryneedwehireaheraldorshalliannouncethatthesonofaristonthebesthasdecidedthatthebestandjustestisalsothehappiestandthatthisishewhoisthemostroyalmanandkingoverhimselfandthattheworstandmostunjustmanisalsothemostmiserableandthatthisishewhobeingthegreatesttyrantofhimselfisalsothegreatesttyrantofhisstatemaketheproclamationyourselfhesaidandshalliaddwhetherseenorunseenbygodsandmenletthewordsbeaddedthenthisisaidwillbeourfirstproofandthereisanotherwhichmayalsohavesomeweightwhatisthatthesecondproofisderivedfromthenatureofthesoulseeingthattheindividualsoullikethestatehasbeendividedbyusintothreeprinciplesthedivisionmayithinkfurnishanewdemonstrationofwhatnatureitseemstomethattothesethreeprinciplesthreepleasurescorrespondalsothreedesiresandgoverningpowershowdoyoumeanhesaidthereisoneprinciplewithwhichasweweresayingamanlearnsanotherwithwhichheisangrythethirdhavingmanyformshasnospecialnamebutisdenotedbythegeneraltermappetitivefromtheextraordinarystrengthandvehemenceofthedesiresofeatinganddrinkingandtheothersensualappetiteswhicharethemainelementsofitalsomoneylovingbecausesuchdesiresaregenerallysatisfiedbythehelpofmoneythatistruehesaidifweweretosaythatthelovesandpleasuresofthisthirdpartwereconcernedwithgainweshouldthenbeabletofallbackonasinglenotionandmighttrulyandintelligiblydescribethispartofthesoulaslovinggainormoneyiagreewithyouagainisnotthepassionateelementwhollysetonrulingandconqueringandgettingfametruesupposewecallitthecontentiousorambitiouswouldthetermbesuitableextremelysuitableontheotherhandeveryoneseesthattheprincipleofknowledgeiswhollydirectedtothetruthandcareslessthaneitheroftheothersforgainorfamefarlessloverofwisdomloverofknowledgearetitleswhichwemayfitlyapplytothatpartofthesoulcertainlyoneprincipleprevailsinthesoulsofoneclassofmenanotherinothersasmayhappenyesthenwemaybeginbyassumingthattherearethreeclassesofmenloversofwisdomloversofhonourloversofgainexactlyandtherearethreekindsofpleasurewhicharetheirseveralobjectsverytruenowifyouexaminethethreeclassesofmenandaskoftheminturnwhichoftheirlivesispleasantesteachwillbefoundpraisinghisownanddepreciatingthatofothersthemoneymakerwillcontrastthevanityofhonouroroflearningiftheybringnomoneywiththesolidadvantagesofgoldandsilvertruehesaidandtheloverofhonourwhatwillbehisopinionwillhenotthinkthatthepleasureofrichesisvulgarwhilethepleasureoflearningifitbringsnodistinctionisallsmokeandnonsensetohimverytrueandarewetosupposeisaidthatthephilosophersetsanyvalueonotherpleasuresincomparisonwiththepleasureofknowingthetruthandinthatpursuitabidingeverlearningnotsofarindeedfromtheheavenofpleasuredoeshenotcalltheotherpleasuresnecessaryundertheideathatiftherewerenonecessityforthemhewouldrathernothavethemtherecanbenodoubtofthatherepliedsincethenthepleasuresofeachclassandthelifeofeachareindisputeandthequestionisnotwhichlifeismoreorlesshonourableorbetterorworsebutwhichisthemorepleasantorpainlesshowshallweknowwhospeakstrulyicannotmyselftellhesaidwellbutwhatoughttobethecriterionisanybetterthanexperienceandwisdomandreasontherecannotbeabetterhesaidthenisaidreflectofthethreeindividualswhichhasthegreatestexperienceofallthepleasureswhichweenumeratedhastheloverofgaininlearningthenatureofessentialtruthgreaterexperienceofthepleasureofknowledgethanthephilosopherhasofthepleasureofgainthephilosopherherepliedhasgreatlytheadvantageforhehasofnecessityalwaysknownthetasteoftheotherpleasuresfromhischildhoodupwardsbuttheloverofgaininallhisexperiencehasnotofnecessitytastedorishouldrathersayevenhadhedesiredcouldhardlyhavetastedthesweetnessoflearningandknowingtruththentheloverofwisdomhasagreatadvantageovertheloverofgainforhehasadoubleexperienceyesverygreatagainhashegreaterexperienceofthepleasuresofhonourortheloverofhonourofthepleasuresofwisdomnayhesaidallthreearehonouredinproportionastheyattaintheirobjectfortherichmanandthebravemanandthewisemanalikehavetheircrowdofadmirersandastheyallreceivehonourtheyallhaveexperienceofthepleasuresofhonourbutthedelightwhichistobefoundintheknowledgeoftruebeingisknowntothephilosopheronlyhisexperiencethenwillenablehimtojudgebetterthananyonefarbetterandheistheonlyonewhohaswisdomaswellasexperiencecertainlyfurthertheveryfacultywhichistheinstrumentofjudgmentisnotpossessedbythecovetousorambitiousmanbutonlybythephilosopherwhatfacultyreasonwithwhomasweweresayingthedecisionoughttorestyesandreasoningispeculiarlyhisinstrumentcertainlyifwealthandgainwerethecriterionthenthepraiseorblameoftheloverofgainwouldsurelybethemosttrustworthyassuredlyorifhonourorvictoryorcourageinthatcasethejudgmentoftheambitiousorpugnaciouswouldbethetruestclearlybutsinceexperienceandwisdomandreasonarethejudgestheonlyinferencepossibleherepliedisthatpleasureswhichareapprovedbytheloverofwisdomandreasonarethetruestandsowearriveattheresultthatthepleasureoftheintelligentpartofthesoulisthepleasantestofthethreeandthatheofusinwhomthisistherulingprinciplehasthepleasantestlifeunquestionablyhesaidthewisemanspeakswithauthoritywhenheapprovesofhisownlifeandwhatdoesthejudgeaffirmtobethelifewhichisnextandthepleasurewhichisnextclearlythatofthesoldierandloverofhonourwhoisnearertohimselfthanthemoneymakerlastcomestheloverofgainverytruehesaidtwiceinsuccessionthenhasthejustmanoverthrowntheunjustinthisconflictandnowcomesthethirdtrialwhichisdedicatedtoolympianzeusthesaviourasagewhispersinmyearthatnopleasureexceptthatofthewiseisquitetrueandpureallothersareashadowonlyandsurelythiswillprovethegreatestandmostdecisiveoffallsyesthegreatestbutwillyouexplainyourselfiwillworkoutthesubjectandyoushallanswermyquestionsproceedsaythenisnotpleasureopposedtopaintrueandthereisaneutralstatewhichisneitherpleasurenorpainthereisastatewhichisintermediateandasortofreposeofthesoulabouteitherthatiswhatyoumeanyesyourememberwhatpeoplesaywhentheyaresickwhatdotheysaythatafterallnothingispleasanterthanhealthbutthentheyneverknewthistobethegreatestofpleasuresuntiltheywereillyesiknowhesaidandwhenpersonsaresufferingfromacutepainyoumusthaveheardthemsaythatthereisnothingpleasanterthantogetridoftheirpainihaveandtherearemanyothercasesofsufferinginwhichthemererestandcessationofpainandnotanypositiveenjoymentisextolledbythemasthegreatestpleasureyeshesaidatthetimetheyarepleasedandwellcontenttobeatrestagainwhenpleasureceasesthatsortofrestorcessationwillbepainfuldoubtlesshesaidthentheintermediatestateofrestwillbepleasureandwillalsobepainsoitwouldseembutcanthatwhichisneitherbecomebothishouldsaynotandbothpleasureandpainaremotionsofthesoularetheynotyesbutthatwhichisneitherwasjustnowshowntoberestandnotmotionandinameanbetweenthemyeshowthencanweberightinsupposingthattheabsenceofpainispleasureorthattheabsenceofpleasureispainimpossiblethisthenisanappearanceonlyandnotarealitythatistosaytherestispleasureatthemomentandincomparisonofwhatispainfulandpainfulincomparisonofwhatispleasantbutalltheserepresentationswhentriedbythetestoftruepleasurearenotrealbutasortofimpositionthatistheinferencelookattheotherclassofpleasureswhichhavenoantecedentpainsandyouwillnolongersupposeasyouperhapsmayatpresentthatpleasureisonlythecessationofpainorpainofpleasurewhataretheyhesaidandwhereshallifindthemtherearemanyofthemtakeasanexamplethepleasuresofsmellwhichareverygreatandhavenoantecedentpainstheycomeinamomentandwhentheydepartleavenopainbehindthemmosttruehesaidletusnotthenbeinducedtobelievethatpurepleasureisthecessationofpainorpainofpleasurenostillthemorenumerousandviolentpleasureswhichreachthesoulthroughthebodyaregenerallyofthissorttheyarereliefsofpainthatistrueandtheanticipationsoffuturepleasuresandpainsareofalikenatureyesshalligiveyouanillustrationofthemletmehearyouwouldallowisaidthatthereisinnatureanupperandlowerandmiddleregionishouldandifapersonweretogofromthelowertothemiddleregionwouldhenotimaginethatheisgoingupandhewhoisstandinginthemiddleandseeswhencehehascomewouldimaginethatheisalreadyintheupperregionifhehasneverseenthetrueupperworldtobesurehesaidhowcanhethinkotherwisebutifheweretakenbackagainhewouldimagineandtrulyimaginethathewasdescendingnodoubtallthatwouldariseoutofhisignoranceofthetrueupperandmiddleandlowerregionsyesthencanyouwonderthatpersonswhoareinexperiencedinthetruthastheyhavewrongideasaboutmanyotherthingsshouldalsohavewrongideasaboutpleasureandpainandtheintermediatestatesothatwhentheyareonlybeingdrawntowardsthepainfultheyfeelpainandthinkthepainwhichtheyexperiencetoberealandinlikemannerwhendrawnawayfrompaintotheneutralorintermediatestatetheyfirmlybelievethattheyhavereachedthegoalofsatietyandpleasuretheynotknowingpleasureerrincontrastingpainwiththeabsenceofpainwhichislikecontrastingblackwithgreyinsteadofwhitecanyouwonderisayatthisnoindeedishouldbemuchmoredisposedtowonderattheoppositelookatthematterthushungerthirstandthelikeareinanitionsofthebodilystateyesandignoranceandfollyareinanitionsofthesoultrueandfoodandwisdomarethecorrespondingsatisfactionsofeithercertainlyandisthesatisfactionderivedfromthatwhichhaslessorfromthatwhichhasmoreexistencethetruerclearlyfromthatwhichhasmorewhatclassesofthingshaveagreatershareofpureexistenceinyourjudgmentthoseofwhichfoodanddrinkandcondimentsandallkindsofsustenanceareexamplesortheclasswhichcontainstrueopinionandknowledgeandmindandallthedifferentkindsofvirtueputthequestioninthiswaywhichhasamorepurebeingthatwhichisconcernedwiththeinvariabletheimmortalandthetrueandisofsuchanatureandisfoundinsuchnaturesorthatwhichisconcernedwithandfoundinthevariableandmortalandisitselfvariableandmortalfarpurerherepliedisthebeingofthatwhichisconcernedwiththeinvariableanddoestheessenceoftheinvariablepartakeofknowledgeinthesamedegreeasofessenceyesofknowledgeinthesamedegreeandoftruthinthesamedegreeyesandconverselythatwhichhaslessoftruthwillalsohavelessofessencenecessarilytheningeneralthosekindsofthingswhichareintheserviceofthebodyhavelessoftruthandessencethanthosewhichareintheserviceofthesoulfarlessandhasnotthebodyitselflessoftruthandessencethanthesoulyeswhatisfilledwithmorerealexistenceandactuallyhasamorerealexistenceismorereallyfilledthanthatwhichisfilledwithlessrealexistenceandislessrealofcourseandiftherebeapleasureinbeingfilledwiththatwhichisaccordingtonaturethatwhichismorereallyfilledwithmorerealbeingwillmorereallyandtrulyenjoytruepleasurewhereasthatwhichparticipatesinlessrealbeingwillbelesstrulyandsurelysatisfiedandwillparticipateinanillusoryandlessrealpleasureunquestionablythosethenwhoknownotwisdomandvirtueandarealwaysbusywithgluttonyandsensualitygodownandupagainasfarasthemeanandinthisregiontheymoveatrandomthroughoutlifebuttheyneverpassintothetrueupperworldthithertheyneitherlooknordotheyeverfindtheirwayneitheraretheytrulyfilledwithtruebeingnordotheytasteofpureandabidingpleasurelikecattlewiththeireyesalwayslookingdownandtheirheadsstoopingtotheearththatistothediningtabletheyfattenandfeedandbreedandintheirexcessiveloveofthesedelightstheykickandbuttatoneanotherwithhornsandhoofswhicharemadeofironandtheykilloneanotherbyreasonoftheirinsatiablelustfortheyfillthemselveswiththatwhichisnotsubstantialandthepartofthemselveswhichtheyfillisalsounsubstantialandincontinentverilysocratessaidglauconyoudescribethelifeofthemanylikeanoracletheirpleasuresaremixedwithpainshowcantheybeotherwisefortheyaremereshadowsandpicturesofthetrueandarecolouredbycontrastwhichexaggeratesbothlightandshadeandsotheyimplantinthemindsoffoolsinsanedesiresofthemselvesandtheyarefoughtaboutasstesichorussaysthatthegreeksfoughtabouttheshadowofhelenattroyinignoranceofthetruthsomethingofthatsortmustinevitablyhappenandmustnotthelikehappenwiththespiritedorpassionateelementofthesoulwillnotthepassionatemanwhocarrieshispassionintoactionbeinthelikecasewhetherheisenviousandambitiousorviolentandcontentiousorangryanddiscontentedifhebeseekingtoattainhonourandvictoryandthesatisfactionofhisangerwithoutreasonorsenseyeshesaidthesamewillhappenwiththespiritedelementalsothenmaywenotconfidentlyassertthattheloversofmoneyandhonourwhentheyseektheirpleasuresundertheguidanceandinthecompanyofreasonandknowledgeandpursueafterandwinthepleasureswhichwisdomshowsthemwillalsohavethetruestpleasuresinthehighestdegreewhichisattainabletotheminasmuchastheyfollowtruthandtheywillhavethepleasureswhicharenaturaltothemifthatwhichisbestforeachoneisalsomostnaturaltohimyescertainlythebestisthemostnaturalandwhenthewholesoulfollowsthephilosophicalprincipleandthereisnodivisiontheseveralpartsarejustanddoeachofthemtheirownbusinessandenjoyseverallythebestandtruestpleasuresofwhichtheyarecapableexactlybutwheneitherofthetwootherprinciplesprevailsitfailsinattainingitsownpleasureandcompelstheresttopursueafterapleasurewhichisashadowonlyandwhichisnottheirowntrueandthegreatertheintervalwhichseparatesthemfromphilosophyandreasonthemorestrangeandillusivewillbethepleasureyesandisnotthatfarthestfromreasonwhichisatthegreatestdistancefromlawandorderclearlyandthelustfulandtyrannicaldesiresareaswesawatthegreatestdistanceyesandtheroyalandorderlydesiresarenearestyesthenthetyrantwillliveatthegreatestdistancefromtrueornaturalpleasureandthekingattheleastcertainlybutifsothetyrantwilllivemostunpleasantlyandthekingmostpleasantlyinevitablywouldyouknowthemeasureoftheintervalwhichseparatesthemwillyoutellmethereappeartobethreepleasuresonegenuineandtwospuriousnowthetransgressionofthetyrantreachesapointbeyondthespurioushehasrunawayfromtheregionoflawandreasonandtakenuphisabodewithcertainslavepleasureswhicharehissatellitesandthemeasureofhisinferioritycanonlybeexpressedinafigurehowdoyoumeaniassumeisaidthatthetyrantisinthethirdplacefromtheoligarchthedemocratwasinthemiddleyesandifthereistruthinwhathasprecededhewillbeweddedtoanimageofpleasurewhichisthriceremovedastotruthfromthepleasureoftheoligarchhewillandtheoligarchisthirdfromtheroyalsincewecountasoneroyalandaristocraticalyesheisthirdthenthetyrantisremovedfromtruepleasurebythespaceofanumberwhichisthreetimesthreemanifestlytheshadowthenoftyrannicalpleasuredeterminedbythenumberoflengthwillbeaplanefigurecertainlyandifyouraisethepowerandmaketheplaneasolidthereisnodifficultyinseeinghowvastistheintervalbywhichthetyrantispartedfromthekingyesthearithmeticianwilleasilydothesumorifsomepersonbeginsattheotherendandmeasurestheintervalbywhichthekingispartedfromthetyrantintruthofpleasurehewillfindhimwhenthemultiplicationiscompletedlivingtimesmorepleasantlyandthetyrantmorepainfullybythissameintervalwhatawonderfulcalculationandhowenormousisthedistancewhichseparatesthejustfromtheunjustinregardtopleasureandpainyetatruecalculationisaidandanumberwhichnearlyconcernshumanlifeifhumanbeingsareconcernedwithdaysandnightsandmonthsandyearsnearlyequalsthenumberofdaysandnightsintheyearyeshesaidhumanlifeiscertainlyconcernedwiththemthenifthegoodandjustmanbethussuperiorinpleasuretotheevilandunjusthissuperioritywillbeinfinitelygreaterinproprietyoflifeandinbeautyandvirtueimmeasurablygreaterwellisaidandnowhavingarrivedatthisstageoftheargumentwemayreverttothewordswhichbroughtushitherwasnotsomeonesayingthatinjusticewasagaintotheperfectlyunjustwhowasreputedtobejustyesthatwassaidnowthenhavingdeterminedthepowerandqualityofjusticeandinjusticeletushavealittleconversationwithhimwhatshallwesaytohimletusmakeanimageofthesoulthathemayhavehisownwordspresentedbeforehiseyesofwhatsortanidealimageofthesoullikethecompositecreationsofancientmythologysuchasthechimeraorscyllaorcerberusandtherearemanyothersinwhichtwoormoredifferentnaturesaresaidtogrowintoonetherearesaidofhavebeensuchunionsthendoyounowmodeltheformofamultitudinousmanyheadedmonsterhavingaringofheadsofallmannerofbeaststameandwildwhichheisabletogenerateandmetamorphoseatwillyousupposemarvellouspowersintheartistbutaslanguageismorepliablethanwaxoranysimilarsubstancelettherebesuchamodelasyouproposesupposenowthatyoumakeasecondformasofalionandathirdofamanthesecondsmallerthanthefirstandthethirdsmallerthanthesecondthathesaidisaneasiertaskandihavemadethemasyousayandnowjointhemandletthethreegrowintoonethathasbeenaccomplishednextfashiontheoutsideofthemintoasingleimageasofamansothathewhoisnotabletolookwithinandseesonlytheouterhullmaybelievethebeasttobeasinglehumancreatureihavedonesohesaidandnowtohimwhomaintainsthatitisprofitableforthehumancreaturetobeunjustandunprofitabletobejustletusreplythatifheberightitisprofitableforthiscreaturetofeastthemultitudinousmonsterandstrengthenthelionandthelionlikequalitiesbuttostarveandweakenthemanwhoisconsequentlyliabletobedraggedaboutatthemercyofeitheroftheothertwoandheisnottoattempttofamiliarizeorharmonizethemwithoneanotherheoughtrathertosufferthemtofightandbiteanddevouroneanothercertainlyhesaidthatiswhattheapproverofinjusticesaystohimthesupporterofjusticemakesanswerthatheshouldeversospeakandactastogivethemanwithinhiminsomewayorotherthemostcompletemasteryovertheentirehumancreatureheshouldwatchoverthemanyheadedmonsterlikeagoodhusbandmanfosteringandcultivatingthegentlequalitiesandpreventingthewildonesfromgrowingheshouldbemakingthelionhearthisallyandincommoncareofthemallshouldbeunitingtheseveralpartswithoneanotherandwithhimselfyeshesaidthatisquitewhatthemaintainerofjusticesayandsofromeverypointofviewwhetherofpleasurehonouroradvantagetheapproverofjusticeisrightandspeaksthetruthandthedisapproveriswrongandfalseandignorantyesfromeverypointofviewcomenowandletusgentlyreasonwiththeunjustwhoisnotintentionallyinerrorsweetsirwewillsaytohimwhatthinkyouofthingsesteemednobleandignobleisnotthenoblethatwhichsubjectsthebeasttothemanorrathertothegodinmanandtheignoblethatwhichsubjectsthemantothebeasthecanhardlyavoidsayingyescanhenownotifhehasanyregardformyopinionbutifheagreesofarwemayaskhimtoansweranotherquestionthenhowwouldamanprofitifhereceivedgoldandsilverontheconditionthathewastoenslavethenoblestpartofhimtotheworstwhocanimaginethatamanwhosoldhissonordaughterintoslaveryformoneyespeciallyifhesoldthemintothehandsoffierceandevilmenwouldbethegainerhoweverlargemightbethesumwhichhereceivedandwillanyonesaythatheisnotamiserablecaitiffwhoremorselesslysellshisowndivinebeingtothatwhichismostgodlessanddetestableeriphyletookthenecklaceasthepriceofherhusbandslifebutheistakingabribeinordertocompassaworseruinyessaidglauconfarworseiwillanswerforhimhasnottheintemperatebeencensuredofoldbecauseinhimthehugemultiformmonsterisallowedtobetoomuchatlargeclearlyandmenareblamedforprideandbadtemperwhenthelionandserpentelementinthemdisproportionatelygrowsandgainsstrengthyesandluxuryandsoftnessareblamedbecausetheyrelaxandweakenthissamecreatureandmakeacowardofhimverytrueandisnotamanreproachedforflatteryandmeannesswhosubordinatesthespiritedanimaltotheunrulymonsterandforthesakeofmoneyofwhichhecanneverhaveenoughhabituateshiminthedaysofhisyouthtobetrampledinthemireandfrombeingaliontobecomeamonkeytruehesaidandwhyaremeanemploymentsandmanualartsareproachonlybecausetheyimplyanaturalweaknessofthehigherprincipletheindividualisunabletocontrolthecreatureswithinhimbuthastocourtthemandhisgreatstudyishowtoflatterthemsuchappearstobethereasonandthereforebeingdesirousofplacinghimunderarulelikethatofthebestwesaythatheoughttobetheservantofthebestinwhomthedivinerulesnotasthrasymachussupposedtotheinjuryoftheservantbutbecauseeveryonehadbetterberuledbydivinewisdomdwellingwithinhimorifthisbeimpossiblethenbyanexternalauthorityinorderthatwemaybeallasfaraspossibleunderthesamegovernmentfriendsandequalstruehesaidandthisisclearlyseentobetheintentionofthelawwhichistheallyofthewholecityandisseenalsointheauthoritywhichweexerciseoverchildrenandtherefusaltoletthembefreeuntilwehaveestablishedinthemaprincipleanalogoustotheconstitutionofastateandbycultivationofthishigherelementhavesetupintheirheartsaguardianandrulerlikeourownandwhenthisisdonetheymaygotheirwaysyeshesaidthepurposeofthelawismanifestfromwhatpointofviewthenandonwhatgroundcanwesaythatamanisprofitedbyinjusticeorintemperanceorotherbasenesswhichwillmakehimaworsemaneventhoughheacquiremoneyorpowerbyhiswickednessfromnopointofviewatallwhatshallheprofitifhisinjusticebeundetectedandunpunishedhewhoisundetectedonlygetsworsewhereashewhoisdetectedandpunishedhasthebrutalpartofhisnaturesilencedandhumanizedthegentlerelementinhimisliberatedandhiswholesoulisperfectedandennobledbytheacquirementofjusticeandtemperanceandwisdommorethanthebodyeverisbyreceivinggiftsofbeautystrengthandhealthinproportionasthesoulismorehonourablethanthebodycertainlyhesaidtothisnoblerpurposethemanofunderstandingwilldevotetheenergiesofhislifeandinthefirstplacehewillhonourstudieswhichimpressthesequalitiesonhissoulandwilldisregardothersclearlyhesaidinthenextplacehewillregulatehisbodilyhabitandtrainingandsofarwillhebefromyieldingtobrutalandirrationalpleasuresthathewillregardevenhealthasquiteasecondarymatterhisfirstobjectwillbenotthathemaybefairorstrongorwellunlessheislikelytherebytogaintemperancebuthewillalwaysdesiresotoattemperthebodyastopreservetheharmonyofthesoulcertainlyhewillifhehastruemusicinhimandintheacquisitionofwealththereisaprincipleoforderandharmonywhichhewillalsoobservehewillnotallowhimselftobedazzledbythefoolishapplauseoftheworldandheapuprichestohisowninfiniteharmcertainlynothesaidhewilllookatthecitywhichiswithinhimandtakeheedthatnodisorderoccurinitsuchasmightariseeitherfromsuperfluityorfromwantanduponthisprinciplehewillregulatehispropertyandgainorspendaccordingtohismeansverytrueandforthesamereasonhewillgladlyacceptandenjoysuchhonoursashedeemslikelytomakehimabettermanbutthosewhetherprivateorpublicwhicharelikelytodisorderhislifehewillavoidthenifthatishismotivehewillnotbeastatesmanbythedogofegypthewillinthecitywhichishisownhecertainlywillthoughinthelandofhisbirthperhapsnotunlesshehaveadivinecalliunderstandyoumeanthathewillbearulerinthecityofwhichwearethefoundersandwhichexistsinideaonlyforidonotbelievethatthereissuchanoneanywhereonearthinheavenirepliedthereislaidupapatternofitmethinkswhichhewhodesiresmaybeholdandbeholdingmaysethisownhouseinorderbutwhethersuchanoneexistsoreverwillexistinfactisnomatterforhewillliveafterthemannerofthatcityhavingnothingtodowithanyotherithinksohesaidbookxofthemanyexcellenceswhichiperceiveintheorderofourstatethereisnonewhichuponreflectionpleasesmebetterthantheruleaboutpoetrytowhatdoyourefertotherejectionofimitativepoetrywhichcertainlyoughtnottobereceivedasiseefarmoreclearlynowthatthepartsofthesoulhavebeendistinguishedwhatdoyoumeanspeakinginconfidenceforishouldnotliketohavemywordsrepeatedtothetragediansandtherestoftheimitativetribebutidonotmindsayingtoyouthatallpoeticalimitationsareruinoustotheunderstandingofthehearersandthattheknowledgeoftheirtruenatureistheonlyantidotetothemexplainthepurportofyourremarkwelliwilltellyoualthoughihavealwaysfrommyearliestyouthhadanaweandloveofhomerwhichevennowmakesthewordsfalteronmylipsforheisthegreatcaptainandteacherofthewholeofthatcharmingtragiccompanybutamanisnottobereverencedmorethanthetruthandthereforeiwillspeakoutverygoodhesaidlistentomethenorratheranswermeputyourquestioncanyoutellmewhatimitationisforireallydonotknowalikelythingthenthatishouldknowwhynotforthedullereyemayoftenseeathingsoonerthanthekeenerverytruehesaidbutinyourpresenceevenifihadanyfaintnotionicouldnotmustercouragetoutteritwillyouenquireyourselfwellthenshallwebegintheenquiryinourusualmannerwheneveranumberofindividualshaveacommonnameweassumethemtohavealsoacorrespondingideaorformdoyouunderstandmeidoletustakeanycommoninstancetherearebedsandtablesintheworldplentyofthemaretherenotyesbutthereareonlytwoideasorformsofthemonetheideaofabedtheotherofatabletrueandthemakerofeitherofthemmakesabedorhemakesatableforouruseinaccordancewiththeideathatisourwayofspeakinginthisandsimilarinstancesbutnoartificermakestheideasthemselveshowcouldheimpossibleandthereisanotherartistishouldliketoknowwhatyouwouldsayofhimwhoisheonewhoisthemakerofalltheworksofallotherworkmenwhatanextraordinarymanwaitalittleandtherewillbemorereasonforyoursayingsoforthisishewhoisabletomakenotonlyvesselsofeverykindbutplantsandanimalshimselfandallotherthingstheearthandheavenandthethingswhichareinheavenorundertheearthhemakesthegodsalsohemustbeawizardandnomistakeohyouareincredulousareyoudoyoumeanthatthereisnosuchmakerorcreatororthatinonesensetheremightbeamakerofallthesethingsbutinanothernotdoyouseethatthereisawayinwhichyoucouldmakethemallyourselfwhatwayaneasywayenoughorrathertherearemanywaysinwhichthefeatmightbequicklyandeasilyaccomplishednonequickerthanthatofturningamirrorroundandroundyouwouldsoonenoughmakethesunandtheheavensandtheearthandyourselfandotheranimalsandplantsandalltheotherthingsofwhichwewerejustnowspeakinginthemirroryeshesaidbuttheywouldbeappearancesonlyverygoodisaidyouarecomingtothepointnowandthepaintertooisasiconceivejustsuchanotheracreatorofappearancesishenotofcoursebutthenisupposeyouwillsaythatwhathecreatesisuntrueandyetthereisasenseinwhichthepainteralsocreatesabedyeshesaidbutnotarealbedandwhatofthemakerofthebedwereyounotsayingthathetoomakesnottheideawhichaccordingtoourviewistheessenceofthebedbutonlyaparticularbedyesididthenifhedoesnotmakethatwhichexistshecannotmaketrueexistencebutonlysomesemblanceofexistenceandifanyoneweretosaythattheworkofthemakerofthebedorofanyotherworkmanhasrealexistencehecouldhardlybesupposedtobespeakingthetruthatanyrateherepliedphilosopherswouldsaythathewasnotspeakingthetruthnowonderthenthathisworktooisanindistinctexpressionoftruthnowondersupposenowthatbythelightoftheexamplesjustofferedweenquirewhothisimitatorisifyoupleasewellthenherearethreebedsoneexistinginnaturewhichismadebygodasithinkthatwemaysayfornooneelsecanbethemakernothereisanotherwhichistheworkofthecarpenteryesandtheworkofthepainterisathirdyesbedsthenareofthreekindsandtherearethreeartistswhosuperintendthemgodthemakerofthebedandthepainteryestherearethreeofthemgodwhetherfromchoiceorfromnecessitymadeonebedinnatureandoneonlytwoormoresuchidealbedsneithereverhavebeennoreverwillbemadebygodwhyisthatbecauseevenifhehadmadebuttwoathirdwouldstillappearbehindthemwhichbothofthemwouldhavefortheirideaandthatwouldbetheidealbedandnotthetwoothersverytruehesaidgodknewthisandhedesiredtobetherealmakerofarealbednotaparticularmakerofaparticularbedandthereforehecreatedabedwhichisessentiallyandbynatureoneonlysowebelieveshallwethenspeakofhimasthenaturalauthorormakerofthebedyesherepliedinasmuchasbythenaturalprocessofcreationheistheauthorofthisandofallotherthingsandwhatshallwesayofthecarpenterisnothealsothemakerofthebedyesbutwouldyoucallthepainteracreatorandmakercertainlynotyetifheisnotthemakerwhatisheinrelationtothebedithinkhesaidthatwemayfairlydesignatehimastheimitatorofthatwhichtheothersmakegoodisaidthenyoucallhimwhoisthirdinthedescentfromnatureanimitatorcertainlyhesaidandthetragicpoetisanimitatorandthereforelikeallotherimitatorsheisthriceremovedfromthekingandfromthetruththatappearstobesothenabouttheimitatorweareagreedandwhataboutthepainteriwouldliketoknowwhetherhemaybethoughttoimitatethatwhichoriginallyexistsinnatureoronlythecreationsofartiststhelatterastheyareorastheyappearyouhavestilltodeterminethiswhatdoyoumeanimeanthatyoumaylookatabedfromdifferentpointsofviewobliquelyordirectlyorfromanyotherpointofviewandthebedwillappeardifferentbutthereisnodifferenceinrealityandthesameofallthingsyeshesaidthedifferenceisonlyapparentnowletmeaskyouanotherquestionwhichistheartofpaintingdesignedtobeanimitationofthingsastheyareorastheyappearofappearanceorofrealityofappearancethentheimitatorisaidisalongwayoffthetruthandcandoallthingsbecausehelightlytouchesonasmallpartofthemandthatpartanimageforexampleapainterwillpaintacobblercarpenteroranyotherartistthoughheknowsnothingoftheirartsandifheisagoodartisthemaydeceivechildrenorsimplepersonswhenheshowsthemhispictureofacarpenterfromadistanceandtheywillfancythattheyarelookingatarealcarpentercertainlyandwheneveranyoneinformsusthathehasfoundamanwhoknowsalltheartsandallthingselsethatanybodyknowsandeverysinglethingwithahigherdegreeofaccuracythananyothermanwhoevertellsusthisithinkthatwecanonlyimaginehimtobeasimplecreaturewhoislikelytohavebeendeceivedbysomewizardoractorwhomhemetandwhomhethoughtallknowingbecausehehimselfwasunabletoanalysethenatureofknowledgeandignoranceandimitationmosttrueandsowhenwehearpersonssayingthatthetragediansandhomerwhoisattheirheadknowalltheartsandallthingshumanvirtueaswellasviceanddivinethingstooforthatthegoodpoetcannotcomposewellunlessheknowshissubjectandthathewhohasnotthisknowledgecanneverbeapoetweoughttoconsiderwhetherherealsotheremaynotbeasimilarillusionperhapstheymayhavecomeacrossimitatorsandbeendeceivedbythemtheymaynothaverememberedwhentheysawtheirworksthatthesewerebutimitationsthriceremovedfromthetruthandcouldeasilybemadewithoutanyknowledgeofthetruthbecausetheyareappearancesonlyandnotrealitiesorafteralltheymaybeintherightandpoetsdoreallyknowthethingsaboutwhichtheyseemtothemanytospeaksowellthequestionhesaidshouldbyallmeansbeconsiderednowdoyousupposethatifapersonwereabletomaketheoriginalaswellastheimagehewouldseriouslydevotehimselftotheimagemakingbranchwouldheallowimitationtobetherulingprincipleofhislifeasifhehadnothinghigherinhimishouldsaynottherealartistwhoknewwhathewasimitatingwouldbeinterestedinrealitiesandnotinimitationsandwoulddesiretoleaveasmemorialsofhimselfworksmanyandfairandinsteadofbeingtheauthorofencomiumshewouldprefertobethethemeofthemyeshesaidthatwouldbetohimasourceofmuchgreaterhonourandprofitthenisaidwemustputaquestiontohomernotaboutmedicineoranyoftheartstowhichhispoemsonlyincidentallyreferwearenotgoingtoaskhimoranyotherpoetwhetherhehascuredpatientslikeasclepiusorleftbehindhimaschoolofmedicinesuchastheasclepiadswereorwhetherheonlytalksaboutmedicineandotherartsatsecondhandbutwehavearighttoknowrespectingmilitarytacticspoliticseducationwhicharethechiefestandnoblestsubjectsofhispoemsandwemayfairlyaskhimaboutthemfriendhomerthenwesaytohimifyouareonlyinthesecondremovefromtruthinwhatyousayofvirtueandnotinthethirdnotanimagemakerorimitatorandifyouareabletodiscernwhatpursuitsmakemenbetterorworseinprivateorpubliclifetelluswhatstatewaseverbettergovernedbyyourhelpthegoodorderoflacedaemonisduetolycurgusandmanyothercitiesgreatandsmallhavebeensimilarlybenefitedbyothersbutwhosaysthatyouhavebeenagoodlegislatortothemandhavedonethemanygooditalyandsicilyboastofcharondasandthereissolonwhoisrenownedamongusbutwhatcityhasanythingtosayaboutyouisthereanycitywhichhemightnameithinknotsaidglauconnoteventhehomeridsthemselvespretendthathewasalegislatorwellbutisthereanywaronrecordwhichwascarriedonsuccessfullybyhimoraidedbyhiscounselswhenhewasalivethereisnotoristhereanyinventionofhisapplicabletotheartsortohumanlifesuchasthalesthemilesianoranacharsisthescythianandotheringeniousmenhaveconceivedwhichisattributedtohimthereisabsolutelynothingofthekindbutifhomerneverdidanypublicservicewasheprivatelyaguideorteacherofanyhadheinhislifetimefriendswholovedtoassociatewithhimandwhohandeddowntoposterityanhomericwayoflifesuchaswasestablishedbypythagoraswhowassogreatlybelovedforhiswisdomandwhosefollowersaretothisdayquitecelebratedfortheorderwhichwasnamedafterhimnothingofthekindisrecordedofhimforsurelysocratescreophylusthecompanionofhomerthatchildoffleshwhosenamealwaysmakesuslaughmightbemorejustlyridiculedforhisstupidityifasissaidhomerwasgreatlyneglectedbyhimandothersinhisowndaywhenhewasaliveyesirepliedthatisthetraditionbutcanyouimagineglauconthatifhomerhadreallybeenabletoeducateandimprovemankindifhehadpossessedknowledgeandnotbeenamereimitatorcanyouimagineisaythathewouldnothavehadmanyfollowersandbeenhonouredandlovedbythemprotagorasofabderaandprodicusofceosandahostofothershaveonlytowhispertotheircontemporariesyouwillneverbeabletomanageeitheryourownhouseoryourownstateuntilyouappointustobeyourministersofeducationandthisingeniousdeviceoftheirshassuchaneffectinmakingmenlovethemthattheircompanionsallbutcarrythemaboutontheirshouldersandisitconceivablethatthecontemporariesofhomeroragainofhesiodwouldhaveallowedeitherofthemtogoaboutasrhapsodistsiftheyhadreallybeenabletomakemankindvirtuouswouldtheynothavebeenasunwillingtopartwiththemaswithgoldandhavecompelledthemtostayathomewiththemorifthemasterwouldnotstaythenthediscipleswouldhavefollowedhimabouteverywhereuntiltheyhadgoteducationenoughyessocratesthatithinkisquitetruethenmustwenotinferthatallthesepoeticalindividualsbeginningwithhomerareonlyimitatorstheycopyimagesofvirtueandthelikebutthetruththeyneverreachthepoetislikeapainterwhoaswehavealreadyobservedwillmakealikenessofacobblerthoughheunderstandsnothingofcobblingandhispictureisgoodenoughforthosewhoknownomorethanhedoesandjudgeonlybycoloursandfiguresquitesoinlikemannerthepoetwithhiswordsandphrasesmaybesaidtolayonthecoloursoftheseveralartshimselfunderstandingtheirnatureonlyenoughtoimitatethemandotherpeoplewhoareasignorantasheisandjudgeonlyfromhiswordsimaginethatifhespeaksofcobblingorofmilitarytacticsorofanythingelseinmetreandharmonyandrhythmhespeaksverywellsuchisthesweetinfluencewhichmelodyandrhythmbynaturehaveandithinkthatyoumusthaveobservedagainandagainwhatapoorappearancethetalesofpoetsmakewhenstrippedofthecolourswhichmusicputsuponthemandrecitedinsimpleproseyeshesaidtheyarelikefaceswhichwereneverreallybeautifulbutonlybloomingandnowthebloomofyouthhaspassedawayfromthemexactlyhereisanotherpointtheimitatorormakeroftheimageknowsnothingoftrueexistenceheknowsappearancesonlyaminotrightyesthenletushaveaclearunderstandingandnotbesatisfiedwithhalfanexplanationproceedofthepainterwesaythathewillpaintreinsandhewillpaintabityesandtheworkerinleatherandbrasswillmakethemcertainlybutdoesthepainterknowtherightformofthebitandreinsnayhardlyeventheworkersinbrassandleatherwhomakethemonlythehorsemanwhoknowshowtousethemheknowstheirrightformmosttrueandmaywenotsaythesameofallthingswhatthattherearethreeartswhichareconcernedwithallthingsonewhichusesanotherwhichmakesathirdwhichimitatesthemyesandtheexcellenceorbeautyortruthofeverystructureanimateorinanimateandofeveryactionofmanisrelativetotheuseforwhichnatureortheartisthasintendedthemtruethentheuserofthemmusthavethegreatestexperienceofthemandhemustindicatetothemakerthegoodorbadqualitieswhichdevelopthemselvesinuseforexamplethefluteplayerwilltelltheflutemakerwhichofhisflutesissatisfactorytotheperformerhewilltellhimhowheoughttomakethemandtheotherwillattendtohisinstructionsofcoursetheoneknowsandthereforespeakswithauthorityaboutthegoodnessandbadnessoffluteswhiletheotherconfidinginhimwilldowhatheistoldbyhimtruetheinstrumentisthesamebutabouttheexcellenceorbadnessofitthemakerwillonlyattaintoacorrectbeliefandthishewillgainfromhimwhoknowsbytalkingtohimandbeingcompelledtohearwhathehastosaywhereastheuserwillhaveknowledgetruebutwilltheimitatorhaveeitherwillheknowfromusewhetherornohisdrawingiscorrectorbeautifulorwillhehaverightopinionfrombeingcompelledtoassociatewithanotherwhoknowsandgiveshiminstructionsaboutwhatheshoulddrawneitherthenhewillnomorehavetrueopinionthanhewillhaveknowledgeaboutthegoodnessorbadnessofhisimitationsisupposenottheimitativeartistwillbeinabrilliantstateofintelligenceabouthisowncreationsnayverymuchthereverseandstillhewillgoonimitatingwithoutknowingwhatmakesathinggoodorbadandmaybeexpectedthereforetoimitateonlythatwhichappearstobegoodtotheignorantmultitudejustsothusfarthenweareprettywellagreedthattheimitatorhasnoknowledgeworthmentioningofwhatheimitatesimitationisonlyakindofplayorsportandthetragicpoetswhethertheywriteiniambicorinheroicverseareimitatorsinthehighestdegreeverytrueandnowtellmeiconjureyouhasnotimitationbeenshownbyustobeconcernedwiththatwhichisthriceremovedfromthetruthcertainlyandwhatisthefacultyinmantowhichimitationisaddressedwhatdoyoumeaniwillexplainthebodywhichislargewhenseennearappearssmallwhenseenatadistancetrueandthesameobjectappearsstraightwhenlookedatoutofthewaterandcrookedwheninthewaterandtheconcavebecomesconvexowingtotheillusionaboutcolourstowhichthesightisliablethuseverysortofconfusionisrevealedwithinusandthisisthatweaknessofthehumanmindonwhichtheartofconjuringandofdeceivingbylightandshadowandotheringeniousdevicesimposeshavinganeffectuponuslikemagictrueandtheartsofmeasuringandnumberingandweighingcometotherescueofthehumanunderstandingthereisthebeautyofthemandtheapparentgreaterorlessormoreorheaviernolongerhavethemasteryoverusbutgivewaybeforecalculationandmeasureandweightmosttrueandthissurelymustbetheworkofthecalculatingandrationalprincipleinthesoultobesureandwhenthisprinciplemeasuresandcertifiesthatsomethingsareequalorthatsomearegreaterorlessthanothersthereoccursanapparentcontradictiontruebutwerewenotsayingthatsuchacontradictionisimpossiblethesamefacultycannothavecontraryopinionsatthesametimeaboutthesamethingverytruethenthatpartofthesoulwhichhasanopinioncontrarytomeasureisnotthesamewiththatwhichhasanopinioninaccordancewithmeasuretrueandthebetterpartofthesoulislikelytobethatwhichtruststomeasureandcalculationcertainlyandthatwhichisopposedtothemisoneoftheinferiorprinciplesofthesoulnodoubtthiswastheconclusionatwhichiwasseekingtoarrivewhenisaidthatpaintingordrawingandimitationingeneralwhendoingtheirownproperworkarefarremovedfromtruthandthecompanionsandfriendsandassociatesofaprinciplewithinuswhichisequallyremovedfromreasonandthattheyhavenotrueorhealthyaimexactlytheimitativeartisaninferiorwhomarriesaninferiorandhasinferioroffspringverytrueandisthisconfinedtothesightonlyordoesitextendtothehearingalsorelatinginfacttowhatwetermpoetryprobablythesamewouldbetrueofpoetrydonotrelyisaidonaprobabilityderivedfromtheanalogyofpaintingbutletusexaminefurtherandseewhetherthefacultywithwhichpoeticalimitationisconcernedisgoodorbadbyallmeanswemaystatethequestionthusimitationimitatestheactionsofmenwhethervoluntaryorinvoluntaryonwhichastheyimagineagoodorbadresulthasensuedandtheyrejoiceorsorrowaccordinglyisthereanythingmorenothereisnothingelsebutinallthisvarietyofcircumstancesisthemanatunitywithhimselforratherasintheinstanceofsighttherewasconfusionandoppositioninhisopinionsaboutthesamethingssoherealsoistherenotstrifeandinconsistencyinhislifethoughineedhardlyraisethequestionagainforirememberthatallthishasbeenalreadyadmittedandthesoulhasbeenacknowledgedbyustobefulloftheseandtenthousandsimilaroppositionsoccurringatthesamemomentandwewererighthesaidyesisaidthusfarwewererightbuttherewasanomissionwhichmustnowbesuppliedwhatwastheomissionwerewenotsayingthatagoodmanwhohasthemisfortunetolosehissonoranythingelsewhichismostdeartohimwillbearthelosswithmoreequanimitythananotheryesbutwillhehavenosorroworshallwesaythatalthoughhecannothelpsorrowinghewillmoderatehissorrowthelatterhesaidisthetruerstatementtellmewillhebemorelikelytostruggleandholdoutagainsthissorrowwhenheisseenbyhisequalsorwhenheisaloneitwillmakeagreatdifferencewhetherheisseenornotwhenheisbyhimselfhewillnotmindsayingordoingmanythingswhichhewouldbeashamedofanyonehearingorseeinghimdotruethereisaprincipleoflawandreasoninhimwhichbidshimresistaswellasafeelingofhismisfortunewhichisforcinghimtoindulgehissorrowtruebutwhenamanisdrawnintwooppositedirectionstoandfromthesameobjectthisasweaffirmnecessarilyimpliestwodistinctprinciplesinhimcertainlyoneofthemisreadytofollowtheguidanceofthelawhowdoyoumeanthelawwouldsaythattobepatientundersufferingisbestandthatweshouldnotgivewaytoimpatienceasthereisnoknowingwhethersuchthingsaregoodorevilandnothingisgainedbyimpatiencealsobecausenohumanthingisofseriousimportanceandgriefstandsinthewayofthatwhichatthemomentismostrequiredwhatismostrequiredheaskedthatweshouldtakecounselaboutwhathashappenedandwhenthedicehavebeenthrownorderouraffairsinthewaywhichreasondeemsbestnotlikechildrenwhohavehadafallkeepingholdofthepartstruckandwastingtimeinsettingupahowlbutalwaysaccustomingthesoulforthwithtoapplyaremedyraisingupthatwhichissicklyandfallenbanishingthecryofsorrowbythehealingartyeshesaidthatisthetruewayofmeetingtheattacksoffortuneyesisaidandthehigherprincipleisreadytofollowthissuggestionofreasonclearlyandtheotherprinciplewhichinclinesustorecollectionofourtroublesandtolamentationandcanneverhaveenoughofthemwemaycallirrationaluselessandcowardlyindeedwemayanddoesnotthelatterimeantherebelliousprinciplefurnishagreatvarietyofmaterialsforimitationwhereasthewiseandcalmtemperamentbeingalwaysnearlyequableisnoteasytoimitateortoappreciatewhenimitatedespeciallyatapublicfestivalwhenapromiscuouscrowdisassembledinatheatreforthefeelingrepresentedisonetowhichtheyarestrangerscertainlythentheimitativepoetwhoaimsatbeingpopularisnotbynaturemadenorishisartintendedtopleaseortoaffecttherationalprincipleinthesoulbuthewillpreferthepassionateandfitfultemperwhichiseasilyimitatedclearlyandnowwemayfairlytakehimandplacehimbythesideofthepainterforheislikehimintwowaysfirstinasmuchashiscreationshaveaninferiordegreeoftruthinthisisayheislikehimandheisalsolikehiminbeingconcernedwithaninferiorpartofthesoulandthereforeweshallberightinrefusingtoadmithimintoawellorderedstatebecauseheawakensandnourishesandstrengthensthefeelingsandimpairsthereasonasinacitywhentheevilarepermittedtohaveauthorityandthegoodareputoutofthewaysointhesoulofmanaswemaintaintheimitativepoetimplantsanevilconstitutionforheindulgestheirrationalnaturewhichhasnodiscernmentofgreaterandlessbutthinksthesamethingatonetimegreatandatanothersmallheisamanufacturerofimagesandisveryfarremovedfromthetruthexactlybutwehavenotyetbroughtforwardtheheaviestcountinouraccusationthepowerwhichpoetryhasofharmingeventhegoodandthereareveryfewwhoarenotharmedissurelyanawfulthingyescertainlyiftheeffectiswhatyousayhearandjudgethebestofusasiconceivewhenwelistentoapassageofhomeroroneofthetragediansinwhichherepresentssomepitifulherowhoisdrawlingouthissorrowsinalongorationorweepingandsmitinghisbreastthebestofusyouknowdelightingivingwaytosympathyandareinrapturesattheexcellenceofthepoetwhostirsourfeelingsmostyesofcourseiknowbutwhenanysorrowofourownhappenstousthenyoumayobservethatweprideourselvesontheoppositequalitywewouldfainbequietandpatientthisisthemanlypartandtheotherwhichdelightedusintherecitationisnowdeemedtobethepartofawomanverytruehesaidnowcanweberightinpraisingandadmiringanotherwhoisdoingthatwhichanyoneofuswouldabominateandbeashamedofinhisownpersonnohesaidthatiscertainlynotreasonablenayisaidquitereasonablefromonepointofviewwhatpointofviewifyouconsiderisaidthatwheninmisfortunewefeelanaturalhungeranddesiretorelieveoursorrowbyweepingandlamentationandthatthisfeelingwhichiskeptundercontrolinourowncalamitiesissatisfiedanddelightedbythepoetsthebetternatureineachofusnothavingbeensufficientlytrainedbyreasonorhabitallowsthesympatheticelementtobreakloosebecausethesorrowisanothersandthespectatorfanciesthattherecanbenodisgracetohimselfinpraisingandpityinganyonewhocomestellinghimwhatagoodmanheisandmakingafussabouthistroubleshethinksthatthepleasureisagainandwhyshouldhebesuperciliousandlosethisandthepoemtoofewpersonseverreflectasishouldimaginethatfromtheevilofothermensomethingofeviliscommunicatedtothemselvesandsothefeelingofsorrowwhichhasgatheredstrengthatthesightofthemisfortunesofothersiswithdifficultyrepressedinourownhowverytrueanddoesnotthesameholdalsooftheridiculoustherearejestswhichyouwouldbeashamedtomakeyourselfandyetonthecomicstageorindeedinprivatewhenyouhearthemyouaregreatlyamusedbythemandarenotatalldisgustedattheirunseemlinessthecaseofpityisrepeatedthereisaprincipleinhumannaturewhichisdisposedtoraisealaughandthiswhichyouoncerestrainedbyreasonbecauseyouwereafraidofbeingthoughtabuffoonisnowletoutagainandhavingstimulatedtherisiblefacultyatthetheatreyouarebetrayedunconsciouslytoyourselfintoplayingthecomicpoetathomequitetruehesaidandthesamemaybesaidoflustandangerandalltheotheraffectionsofdesireandpainandpleasurewhichareheldtobeinseparablefromeveryactioninallofthempoetryfeedsandwatersthepassionsinsteadofdryingthemupsheletsthemrulealthoughtheyoughttobecontrolledifmankindareevertoincreaseinhappinessandvirtueicannotdenyitthereforeglauconisaidwheneveryoumeetwithanyoftheeulogistsofhomerdeclaringthathehasbeentheeducatorofhellasandthatheisprofitableforeducationandfortheorderingofhumanthingsandthatyoushouldtakehimupagainandagainandgettoknowhimandregulateyourwholelifeaccordingtohimwemayloveandhonourthosewhosaythesethingstheyareexcellentpeopleasfarastheirlightsextendandwearereadytoacknowledgethathomeristhegreatestofpoetsandfirstoftragedywritersbutwemustremainfirminourconvictionthathymnstothegodsandpraisesoffamousmenaretheonlypoetrywhichoughttobeadmittedintoourstateforifyougobeyondthisandallowthehoneyedmusetoentereitherinepicorlyricversenotlawandthereasonofmankindwhichbycommonconsenthaveeverbeendeemedbestbutpleasureandpainwillbetherulersinourstatethatismosttruehesaidandnowsincewehaverevertedtothesubjectofpoetryletthisourdefenceservetoshowthereasonablenessofourformerjudgmentinsendingawayoutofourstateanarthavingthetendencieswhichwehavedescribedforreasonconstrainedusbutthatshemaynotimputetousanyharshnessorwantofpolitenessletustellherthatthereisanancientquarrelbetweenphilosophyandpoetryofwhichtherearemanyproofssuchasthesayingoftheyelpinghoundhowlingatherlordorofonemightyinthevaintalkoffoolsandthemobofsagescircumventingzeusandthesubtlethinkerswhoarebeggarsafterallandthereareinnumerableothersignsofancientenmitybetweenthemnotwithstandingthisletusassureoursweetfriendandthesisterartsofimitationthatifshewillonlyprovehertitletoexistinawellorderedstateweshallbedelightedtoreceiveherweareveryconsciousofhercharmsbutwemaynotonthataccountbetraythetruthidaresayglauconthatyouareasmuchcharmedbyherasiamespeciallywhensheappearsinhomeryesindeediamgreatlycharmedshalliproposethenthatshebeallowedtoreturnfromexilebutuponthisconditiononlythatshemakeadefenceofherselfinlyricalorsomeothermetrecertainlyandwemayfurthergranttothoseofherdefenderswhoareloversofpoetryandyetnotpoetsthepermissiontospeakinproseonherbehalfletthemshownotonlythatsheispleasantbutalsousefultostatesandtohumanlifeandwewilllisteninakindlyspiritforifthiscanbeprovedweshallsurelybethegainersimeanifthereisauseinpoetryaswellasadelightcertainlyhesaidweshallbethegainersifherdefencefailsthenmydearfriendlikeotherpersonswhoareenamouredofsomethingbutputarestraintuponthemselveswhentheythinktheirdesiresareopposedtotheirinterestssotoomustweafterthemannerofloversgiveherupthoughnotwithoutastrugglewetooareinspiredbythatloveofpoetrywhichtheeducationofnoblestateshasimplantedinusandthereforewewouldhaveherappearatherbestandtruestbutsolongassheisunabletomakegoodherdefencethisargumentofoursshallbeacharmtouswhichwewillrepeattoourselveswhilewelistentoherstrainsthatwemaynotfallawayintothechildishloveofherwhichcaptivatesthemanyatalleventswearewellawarethatpoetrybeingsuchaswehavedescribedisnottoberegardedseriouslyasattainingtothetruthandhewholistenstoherfearingforthesafetyofthecitywhichiswithinhimshouldbeonhisguardagainstherseductionsandmakeourwordshislawyeshesaidiquiteagreewithyouyesisaidmydearglauconforgreatistheissueatstakegreaterthanappearswhetheramanistobegoodorbadandwhatwillanyonebeprofitedifundertheinfluenceofhonourormoneyorpowerayeorundertheexcitementofpoetryheneglectjusticeandvirtueyeshesaidihavebeenconvincedbytheargumentasibelievethatanyoneelsewouldhavebeenandyetnomentionhasbeenmadeofthegreatestprizesandrewardswhichawaitvirtuewhatarethereanygreaterstilliftherearetheymustbeofaninconceivablegreatnesswhyisaidwhatwasevergreatinashorttimethewholeperiodofthreescoreyearsandtenissurelybutalittlethingincomparisonwitheternitysayrathernothingherepliedandshouldanimmortalbeingseriouslythinkofthislittlespaceratherthanofthewholeofthewholecertainlybutwhydoyouaskareyounotawareisaidthatthesoulofmanisimmortalandimperishablehelookedatmeinastonishmentandsaidnobyheavenandareyoureallypreparedtomaintainthisyesisaidioughttobeandyoutoothereisnodifficultyinprovingitiseeagreatdifficultybutishouldliketohearyoustatethisargumentofwhichyoumakesolightlistentheniamattendingthereisathingwhichyoucallgoodandanotherwhichyoucallevilyesherepliedwouldyouagreewithmeinthinkingthatthecorruptinganddestroyingelementistheevilandthesavingandimprovingelementthegoodyesandyouadmitthateverythinghasagoodandalsoanevilasophthalmiaistheeviloftheeyesanddiseaseofthewholebodyasmildewisofcornandrotoftimberorrustofcopperandironineverythingorinalmosteverythingthereisaninherentevilanddiseaseyeshesaidandanythingwhichisinfectedbyanyoftheseevilsismadeevilandatlastwhollydissolvesanddiestruetheviceandevilwhichisinherentineachisthedestructionofeachandifthisdoesnotdestroythemthereisnothingelsethatwillforgoodcertainlywillnotdestroythemnoragainthatwhichisneithergoodnorevilcertainlynotifthenwefindanynaturewhichhavingthisinherentcorruptioncannotbedissolvedordestroyedwemaybecertainthatofsuchanaturethereisnodestructionthatmaybeassumedwellisaidandistherenoevilwhichcorruptsthesoulyeshesaidtherearealltheevilswhichwewerejustnowpassinginreviewunrighteousnessintemperancecowardiceignorancebutdoesanyofthesedissolveordestroyherandheredonotletusfallintotheerrorofsupposingthattheunjustandfoolishmanwhenheisdetectedperishesthroughhisowninjusticewhichisanevilofthesoultaketheanalogyofthebodytheevilofthebodyisadiseasewhichwastesandreducesandannihilatesthebodyandallthethingsofwhichwewerejustnowspeakingcometoannihilationthroughtheirowncorruptionattachingtothemandinheringinthemandsodestroyingthemisnotthistrueyesconsiderthesoulinlikemannerdoestheinjusticeorotherevilwhichexistsinthesoulwasteandconsumeherdotheybyattachingtothesoulandinheringinheratlastbringhertodeathandsoseparateherfromthebodycertainlynotandyetisaiditisunreasonabletosupposethatanythingcanperishfromwithoutthroughaffectionofexternalevilwhichcouldnotbedestroyedfromwithinbyacorruptionofitsownitisherepliedconsiderisaidglauconthateventhebadnessoffoodwhetherstalenessdecompositionoranyotherbadqualitywhenconfinedtotheactualfoodisnotsupposedtodestroythebodyalthoughifthebadnessoffoodcommunicatescorruptiontothebodythenweshouldsaythatthebodyhasbeendestroyedbyacorruptionofitselfwhichisdiseasebroughtonbythisbutthatthebodybeingonethingcanbedestroyedbythebadnessoffoodwhichisanotherandwhichdoesnotengenderanynaturalinfectionthisweshallabsolutelydenyverytrueandonthesameprincipleunlesssomebodilyevilcanproduceanevilofthesoulwemustnotsupposethatthesoulwhichisonethingcanbedissolvedbyanymerelyexternalevilwhichbelongstoanotheryeshesaidthereisreasoninthateitherthenletusrefutethisconclusionorwhileitremainsunrefutedletusneversaythatfeveroranyotherdiseaseortheknifeputtothethroatoreventhecuttingupofthewholebodyintotheminutestpiecescandestroythesouluntilsheherselfisprovedtobecomemoreunholyorunrighteousinconsequenceofthesethingsbeingdonetothebodybutthatthesouloranythingelseifnotdestroyedbyaninternalevilcanbedestroyedbyanexternaloneisnottobeaffirmedbyanymanandsurelyherepliednoonewilleverprovethatthesoulsofmenbecomemoreunjustinconsequenceofdeathbutifsomeonewhowouldrathernotadmittheimmortalityofthesoulboldlydeniesthisandsaysthatthedyingdoreallybecomemoreevilandunrighteousthenifthespeakerisrightisupposethatinjusticelikediseasemustbeassumedtobefataltotheunjustandthatthosewhotakethisdisorderdiebythenaturalinherentpowerofdestructionwhichevilhasandwhichkillsthemsoonerorlaterbutinquiteanotherwayfromthatinwhichatpresentthewickedreceivedeathatthehandsofothersasthepenaltyoftheirdeedsnayhesaidinthatcaseinjusticeiffataltotheunjustwillnotbesoveryterribletohimforhewillbedeliveredfromevilbutirathersuspecttheoppositetobethetruthandthatinjusticewhichifithavethepowerwillmurderotherskeepsthemurdereraliveayeandwellawaketoosofarremovedisherdwellingplacefrombeingahouseofdeathtrueisaidiftheinherentnaturalviceorevilofthesoulisunabletokillordestroyherhardlywillthatwhichisappointedtobethedestructionofsomeotherbodydestroyasouloranythingelseexceptthatofwhichitwasappointedtobethedestructionyesthatcanhardlybebutthesoulwhichcannotbedestroyedbyanevilwhetherinherentorexternalmustexistforeverandifexistingforevermustbeimmortalcertainlythatistheconclusionisaidandifatrueconclusionthenthesoulsmustalwaysbethesameforifnonebedestroyedtheywillnotdiminishinnumberneitherwilltheyincreasefortheincreaseoftheimmortalnaturesmustcomefromsomethingmortalandallthingswouldthusendinimmortalityverytruebutthiswecannotbelievereasonwillnotallowusanymorethanwecanbelievethesoulinhertruestnaturetobefullofvarietyanddifferenceanddissimilaritywhatdoyoumeanhesaidthesoulisaidbeingasisnowprovenimmortalmustbethefairestofcompositionsandcannotbecompoundedofmanyelementscertainlynotherimmortalityisdemonstratedbythepreviousargumentandtherearemanyotherproofsbuttoseeherasshereallyisnotaswenowbeholdhermarredbycommunionwiththebodyandothermiseriesyoumustcontemplateherwiththeeyeofreasoninheroriginalpurityandthenherbeautywillberevealedandjusticeandinjusticeandallthethingswhichwehavedescribedwillbemanifestedmoreclearlythusfarwehavespokenthetruthconcerningherassheappearsatpresentbutwemustrememberalsothatwehaveseenheronlyinaconditionwhichmaybecomparedtothatoftheseagodglaucuswhoseoriginalimagecanhardlybediscernedbecausehisnaturalmembersarebrokenoffandcrushedanddamagedbythewavesinallsortsofwaysandincrustationshavegrownoverthemofseaweedandshellsandstonessothatheismorelikesomemonsterthanheistohisownnaturalformandthesoulwhichwebeholdisinasimilarconditiondisfiguredbytenthousandillsbutnotthereglauconnottheremustwelookwherethenatherloveofwisdomletusseewhomsheaffectsandwhatsocietyandconversesheseeksinvirtueofhernearkindredwiththeimmortalandeternalanddivinealsohowdifferentshewouldbecomeifwhollyfollowingthissuperiorprincipleandbornebyadivineimpulseoutoftheoceaninwhichshenowisanddisengagedfromthestonesandshellsandthingsofearthandrockwhichinwildvarietyspringuparoundherbecauseshefeedsuponearthandisovergrownbythegoodthingsofthislifeastheyaretermedthenyouwouldseeherassheisandknowwhethershehaveoneshapeonlyormanyorwhathernatureisofheraffectionsandoftheformswhichshetakesinthispresentlifeithinkthatwehavenowsaidenoughtrueherepliedandthusisaidwehavefulfilledtheconditionsoftheargumentwehavenotintroducedtherewardsandgloriesofjusticewhichasyouweresayingaretobefoundinhomerandhesiodbutjusticeinherownnaturehasbeenshowntobebestforthesoulinherownnatureletamandowhatisjustwhetherhehavetheringofgygesornotandevenifinadditiontotheringofgygesheputonthehelmetofhadesverytrueandnowglaucontherewillbenoharminfurtherenumeratinghowmanyandhowgreataretherewardswhichjusticeandtheothervirtuesprocuretothesoulfromgodsandmenbothinlifeandafterdeathcertainlynothesaidwillyourepaymethenwhatyouborrowedintheargumentwhatdidiborrowtheassumptionthatthejustmanshouldappearunjustandtheunjustjustforyouwereofopinionthatevenifthetruestateofthecasecouldnotpossiblyescapetheeyesofgodsandmenstillthisadmissionoughttobemadeforthesakeoftheargumentinorderthatpurejusticemightbeweighedagainstpureinjusticedoyourememberishouldbemuchtoblameifihadforgottenthenasthecauseisdecidedidemandonbehalfofjusticethattheestimationinwhichsheisheldbygodsandmenandwhichweacknowledgetobeherdueshouldnowberestoredtoherbyussinceshehasbeenshowntoconferrealityandnottodeceivethosewhotrulypossessherletwhathasbeentakenfromherbegivenbackthatsoshemaywinthatpalmofappearancewhichishersalsoandwhichshegivestoherownthedemandhesaidisjustinthefirstplaceisaidandthisisthefirstthingwhichyouwillhavetogivebackthenaturebothofthejustandunjustistrulyknowntothegodsgrantedandiftheyarebothknowntothemonemustbethefriendandtheothertheenemyofthegodsasweadmittedfromthebeginningtrueandthefriendofthegodsmaybesupposedtoreceivefromthemallthingsattheirbestexceptingonlysuchevilasisthenecessaryconsequenceofformersinscertainlythenthismustbeournotionofthejustmanthatevenwhenheisinpovertyorsicknessoranyotherseemingmisfortuneallthingswillintheendworktogetherforgoodtohiminlifeanddeathforthegodshaveacareofanyonewhosedesireistobecomejustandtobelikegodasfarasmancanattainthedivinelikenessbythepursuitofvirtueyeshesaidifheislikegodhewillsurelynotbeneglectedbyhimandoftheunjustmaynottheoppositebesupposedcertainlysuchthenarethepalmsofvictorywhichthegodsgivethejustthatismyconvictionandwhatdotheyreceiveofmenlookatthingsastheyreallyareandyouwillseethatthecleverunjustareinthecaseofrunnerswhorunwellfromthestartingplacetothegoalbutnotbackagainfromthegoaltheygooffatagreatpacebutintheendonlylookfoolishslinkingawaywiththeirearsdragglingontheirshouldersandwithoutacrownbutthetruerunnercomestothefinishandreceivestheprizeandiscrownedandthisisthewaywiththejusthewhoendurestotheendofeveryactionandoccasionofhisentirelifehasagoodreportandcarriesofftheprizewhichmenhavetobestowtrueandnowyoumustallowmetorepeatofthejusttheblessingswhichyouwereattributingtothefortunateunjustishallsayofthemwhatyouweresayingoftheothersthatastheygrowoldertheybecomerulersintheirowncityiftheycaretobetheymarrywhomtheylikeandgiveinmarriagetowhomtheywillallthatyousaidoftheothersinowsayoftheseandontheotherhandoftheunjustisaythatthegreaternumbereventhoughtheyescapeintheiryoutharefoundoutatlastandlookfoolishattheendoftheircourseandwhentheycometobeoldandmiserablearefloutedalikebystrangerandcitizentheyarebeatenandthencomethosethingsunfitforearspoliteasyoutrulytermthemtheywillberackedandhavetheireyesburnedoutasyouweresayingandyoumaysupposethatihaverepeatedtheremainderofyourtaleofhorrorsbutwillyouletmeassumewithoutrecitingthemthatthesethingsaretruecertainlyhesaidwhatyousayistruethesethenaretheprizesandrewardsandgiftswhicharebestoweduponthejustbygodsandmeninthispresentlifeinadditiontotheothergoodthingswhichjusticeofherselfprovidesyeshesaidandtheyarefairandlastingandyetisaidalltheseareasnothingeitherinnumberorgreatnessincomparisonwiththoseotherrecompenseswhichawaitbothjustandunjustafterdeathandyououghttohearthemandthenbothjustandunjustwillhavereceivedfromusafullpaymentofthedebtwhichtheargumentowestothemspeakhesaidtherearefewthingswhichiwouldmoregladlyhearwellisaidiwilltellyouatalenotoneofthetaleswhichodysseustellstotheheroalcinousyetthistooisataleofaheroerthesonofarmeniusapamphylianbybirthhewasslaininbattleandtendaysafterwardswhenthebodiesofthedeadweretakenupalreadyinastateofcorruptionhisbodywasfoundunaffectedbydecayandcarriedawayhometobeburiedandonthetwelfthdayashewaslyingonthefuneralpilehereturnedtolifeandtoldthemwhathehadseenintheotherworldhesaidthatwhenhissoulleftthebodyhewentonajourneywithagreatcompanyandthattheycametoamysteriousplaceatwhichthereweretwoopeningsintheearththeywereneartogetherandoveragainstthemweretwootheropeningsintheheavenaboveintheintermediatespacetherewerejudgesseatedwhocommandedthejustaftertheyhadgivenjudgmentonthemandhadboundtheirsentencesinfrontofthemtoascendbytheheavenlywayontherighthandandinlikemannertheunjustwerebiddenbythemtodescendbythelowerwayonthelefthandthesealsoborethesymbolsoftheirdeedsbutfastenedontheirbackshedrewnearandtheytoldhimthathewastobethemessengerwhowouldcarrythereportoftheotherworldtomenandtheybadehimhearandseeallthatwastobeheardandseeninthatplacethenhebeheldandsawononesidethesoulsdepartingateitheropeningofheavenandearthwhensentencehadbeengivenonthemandatthetwootheropeningsothersoulssomeascendingoutoftheearthdustyandwornwithtravelsomedescendingoutofheavencleanandbrightandarrivingeverandanontheyseemedtohavecomefromalongjourneyandtheywentforthwithgladnessintothemeadowwheretheyencampedasatafestivalandthosewhoknewoneanotherembracedandconversedthesoulswhichcamefromearthcuriouslyenquiringaboutthethingsaboveandthesoulswhichcamefromheavenaboutthethingsbeneathandtheytoldoneanotherofwhathadhappenedbythewaythosefrombelowweepingandsorrowingattheremembranceofthethingswhichtheyhadenduredandseenintheirjourneybeneaththeearthnowthejourneylastedathousandyearswhilethosefromaboveweredescribingheavenlydelightsandvisionsofinconceivablebeautythestoryglauconwouldtaketoolongtotellbutthesumwasthishesaidthatforeverywrongwhichtheyhaddonetoanyonetheysufferedtenfoldoronceinahundredyearssuchbeingreckonedtobethelengthofmanslifeandthepenaltybeingthuspaidtentimesinathousandyearsifforexampletherewereanywhohadbeenthecauseofmanydeathsorhadbetrayedorenslavedcitiesorarmiesorbeenguiltyofanyotherevilbehaviourforeachandalloftheiroffencestheyreceivedpunishmenttentimesoverandtherewardsofbeneficenceandjusticeandholinesswereinthesameproportionineedhardlyrepeatwhathesaidconcerningyoungchildrendyingalmostassoonastheywerebornofpietyandimpietytogodsandparentsandofmurdererstherewereretributionsotherandgreaterfarwhichhedescribedhementionedthathewaspresentwhenoneofthespiritsaskedanotherwhereisardiaeusthegreatnowthisardiaeuslivedathousandyearsbeforethetimeoferhehadbeenthetyrantofsomecityofpamphyliaandhadmurderedhisagedfatherandhiselderbrotherandwassaidtohavecommittedmanyotherabominablecrimestheansweroftheotherspiritwashecomesnothitherandwillnevercomeandthissaidhewasoneofthedreadfulsightswhichweourselveswitnessedwewereatthemouthofthecavernandhavingcompletedallourexperienceswereabouttoreascendwhenofasuddenardiaeusappearedandseveralothersmostofwhomweretyrantsandtherewerealsobesidesthetyrantsprivateindividualswhohadbeengreatcriminalstheywerejustastheyfanciedabouttoreturnintotheupperworldbutthemouthinsteadofadmittingthemgavearoarwheneveranyoftheseincurablesinnersorsomeonewhohadnotbeensufficientlypunishedtriedtoascendandthenwildmenoffieryaspectwhowerestandingbyandheardthesoundseizedandcarriedthemoffandardiaeusandotherstheyboundheadandfootandhandandthrewthemdownandflayedthemwithscourgesanddraggedthemalongtheroadatthesidecardingthemonthornslikewoolanddeclaringtothepassersbywhatweretheircrimesandthattheywerebeingtakenawaytobecastintohellandofallthemanyterrorswhichtheyhadenduredhesaidthattherewasnoneliketheterrorwhicheachofthemfeltatthatmomentlesttheyshouldhearthevoiceandwhentherewassilenceonebyonetheyascendedwithexceedingjoythesesaiderwerethepenaltiesandretributionsandtherewereblessingsasgreatnowwhenthespiritswhichwereinthemeadowhadtarriedsevendaysontheeighththeywereobligedtoproceedontheirjourneyandonthefourthdayafterhesaidthattheycametoaplacewheretheycouldseefromabovealineoflightstraightasacolumnextendingrightthroughthewholeheavenandthroughtheearthincolourresemblingtherainbowonlybrighterandpureranotherdaysjourneybroughtthemtotheplaceandthereinthemidstofthelighttheysawtheendsofthechainsofheavenletdownfromaboveforthislightisthebeltofheavenandholdstogetherthecircleoftheuniverseliketheundergirdersofatriremefromtheseendsisextendedthespindleofnecessityonwhichalltherevolutionsturntheshaftandhookofthisspindlearemadeofsteelandthewhorlismadepartlyofsteelandalsopartlyofothermaterialsnowthewhorlisinformlikethewhorlusedonearthandthedescriptionofitimpliedthatthereisonelargehollowwhorlwhichisquitescoopedoutandintothisisfittedanotherlesseroneandanotherandanotherandfourothersmakingeightinalllikevesselswhichfitintooneanotherthewhorlsshowtheiredgesontheuppersideandontheirlowersidealltogetherformonecontinuouswhorlthisispiercedbythespindlewhichisdrivenhomethroughthecentreoftheeighththefirstandoutermostwhorlhastherimbroadestandtheseveninnerwhorlsarenarrowerinthefollowingproportionsthesixthisnexttothefirstinsizethefourthnexttothesixththencomestheeighththeseventhisfifththefifthissixththethirdisseventhlastandeighthcomesthesecondthelargestorfixedstarsisspangledandtheseventhorsunisbrightesttheeighthormooncolouredbythereflectedlightofthesevenththesecondandfifthsaturnandmercuryareincolourlikeoneanotherandyellowerthantheprecedingthethirdvenushasthewhitestlightthefourthmarsisreddishthesixthjupiterisinwhitenesssecondnowthewholespindlehasthesamemotionbutasthewholerevolvesinonedirectiontheseveninnercirclesmoveslowlyintheotherandofthesetheswiftestistheeighthnextinswiftnessaretheseventhsixthandfifthwhichmovetogetherthirdinswiftnessappearedtomoveaccordingtothelawofthisreversedmotionthefourththethirdappearedfourthandthesecondfifththespindleturnsonthekneesofnecessityandontheuppersurfaceofeachcircleisasirenwhogoesroundwiththemhymningasingletoneornotetheeighttogetherformoneharmonyandroundaboutatequalintervalsthereisanotherbandthreeinnumbereachsittinguponherthronethesearethefatesdaughtersofnecessitywhoareclothedinwhiterobesandhavechapletsupontheirheadslachesisandclothoandatroposwhoaccompanywiththeirvoicestheharmonyofthesirenslachesissingingofthepastclothoofthepresentatroposofthefutureclothofromtimetotimeassistingwithatouchofherrighthandtherevolutionoftheoutercircleofthewhorlorspindleandatroposwithherlefthandtouchingandguidingtheinneronesandlachesislayingholdofeitherinturnfirstwithonehandandthenwiththeotherwhenerandthespiritsarrivedtheirdutywastogoatoncetolachesisbutfirstofalltherecameaprophetwhoarrangedtheminorderthenhetookfromthekneesoflachesislotsandsamplesoflivesandhavingmountedahighpulpitspokeasfollowshearthewordoflachesisthedaughterofnecessitymortalsoulsbeholdanewcycleoflifeandmortalityyourgeniuswillnotbeallottedtoyoubutyouwillchooseyourgeniusandlethimwhodrawsthefirstlothavethefirstchoiceandthelifewhichhechoosesshallbehisdestinyvirtueisfreeandasamanhonoursordishonoursherhewillhavemoreorlessofhertheresponsibilityiswiththechoosergodisjustifiedwhentheinterpreterhadthusspokenhescatteredlotsindifferentlyamongthemallandeachofthemtookupthelotwhichfellnearhimallbuterhimselfhewasnotallowedandeachashetookhislotperceivedthenumberwhichhehadobtainedthentheinterpreterplacedonthegroundbeforethemthesamplesoflivesandthereweremanymorelivesthanthesoulspresentandtheywereofallsortstherewerelivesofeveryanimalandofmanineveryconditionandthereweretyranniesamongthemsomelastingoutthetyrantslifeotherswhichbrokeoffinthemiddleandcametoanendinpovertyandexileandbeggaryandtherewerelivesoffamousmensomewhowerefamousfortheirformandbeautyaswellasfortheirstrengthandsuccessingamesoragainfortheirbirthandthequalitiesoftheirancestorsandsomewhowerethereverseoffamousfortheoppositequalitiesandofwomenlikewisetherewasnothoweveranydefinitecharacterinthembecausethesoulwhenchoosinganewlifemustofnecessitybecomedifferentbuttherewaseveryotherqualityandtheallmingledwithoneanotherandalsowithelementsofwealthandpovertyanddiseaseandhealthandthereweremeanstatesalsoandheremydearglauconisthesupremeperilofourhumanstateandthereforetheutmostcareshouldbetakenleteachoneofusleaveeveryotherkindofknowledgeandseekandfollowonethingonlyifperadventurehemaybeabletolearnandmayfindsomeonewhowillmakehimabletolearnanddiscernbetweengoodandevilandsotochoosealwaysandeverywherethebetterlifeashehasopportunityheshouldconsiderthebearingofallthesethingswhichhavebeenmentionedseverallyandcollectivelyuponvirtueheshouldknowwhattheeffectofbeautyiswhencombinedwithpovertyorwealthinaparticularsoulandwhatarethegoodandevilconsequencesofnobleandhumblebirthofprivateandpublicstationofstrengthandweaknessofclevernessanddullnessandofallthenaturalandacquiredgiftsofthesoulandtheoperationofthemwhenconjoinedhewillthenlookatthenatureofthesoulandfromtheconsiderationofallthesequalitieshewillbeabletodeterminewhichisthebetterandwhichistheworseandsohewillchoosegivingthenameofeviltothelifewhichwillmakehissoulmoreunjustandgoodtothelifewhichwillmakehissoulmorejustallelsehewilldisregardforwehaveseenandknowthatthisisthebestchoicebothinlifeandafterdeathamanmusttakewithhimintotheworldbelowanadamantinefaithintruthandrightthattheretoohemaybeundazzledbythedesireofwealthortheotherallurementsofevillestcomingupontyranniesandsimilarvillainieshedoirremediablewrongstoothersandsufferyetworsehimselfbutlethimknowhowtochoosethemeanandavoidtheextremesoneithersideasfaraspossiblenotonlyinthislifebutinallthatwhichistocomeforthisisthewayofhappinessandaccordingtothereportofthemessengerfromtheotherworldthiswaswhattheprophetsaidatthetimeevenforthelastcomerifhechooseswiselyandwilllivediligentlythereisappointedahappyandnotundesirableexistenceletnothimwhochoosesfirstbecarelessandletnotthelastdespairandwhenhehadspokenhewhohadthefirstchoicecameforwardandinamomentchosethegreatesttyrannyhismindhavingbeendarkenedbyfollyandsensualityhehadnotthoughtoutthewholematterbeforehechoseanddidnotatfirstsightperceivethathewasfatedamongotherevilstodevourhisownchildrenbutwhenhehadtimetoreflectandsawwhatwasinthelothebegantobeathisbreastandlamentoverhischoiceforgettingtheproclamationoftheprophetforinsteadofthrowingtheblameofhismisfortuneonhimselfheaccusedchanceandthegodsandeverythingratherthanhimselfnowhewasoneofthosewhocamefromheavenandinaformerlifehaddweltinawellorderedstatebuthisvirtuewasamatterofhabitonlyandhehadnophilosophyanditwastrueofotherswhoweresimilarlyovertakenthatthegreaternumberofthemcamefromheavenandthereforetheyhadneverbeenschooledbytrialwhereasthepilgrimswhocamefromearthhavingthemselvessufferedandseenotherssufferwerenotinahurrytochooseandowingtothisinexperienceoftheirsandalsobecausethelotwasachancemanyofthesoulsexchangedagooddestinyforaneviloranevilforagoodforifamanhadalwaysonhisarrivalinthisworlddedicatedhimselffromthefirsttosoundphilosophyandhadbeenmoderatelyfortunateinthenumberofthelothemightasthemessengerreportedbehappyhereandalsohisjourneytoanotherlifeandreturntothisinsteadofbeingroughandundergroundwouldbesmoothandheavenlymostcurioushesaidwasthespectaclesadandlaughableandstrangeforthechoiceofthesoulswasinmostcasesbasedontheirexperienceofapreviouslifetherehesawthesoulwhichhadoncebeenorpheuschoosingthelifeofaswanoutofenmitytotheraceofwomenhatingtobebornofawomanbecausetheyhadbeenhismurderershebeheldalsothesoulofthamyraschoosingthelifeofanightingalebirdsontheotherhandliketheswanandothermusicianswantingtobementhesoulwhichobtainedthetwentiethlotchosethelifeofalionandthiswasthesoulofajaxthesonoftelamonwhowouldnotbeamanrememberingtheinjusticewhichwasdonehiminthejudgmentaboutthearmsthenextwasagamemnonwhotookthelifeofaneaglebecauselikeajaxhehatedhumannaturebyreasonofhissufferingsaboutthemiddlecamethelotofatalantasheseeingthegreatfameofanathletewasunabletoresistthetemptationandafterhertherefollowedthesoulofepeusthesonofpanopeuspassingintothenatureofawomancunningintheartsandfarawayamongthelastwhochosethesoulofthejesterthersiteswasputtingontheformofamonkeytherecamealsothesoulofodysseushavingyettomakeachoiceandhislothappenedtobethelastofthemallnowtherecollectionofformertoilshaddisenchantedhimofambitionandhewentaboutforaconsiderabletimeinsearchofthelifeofaprivatemanwhohadnocareshehadsomedifficultyinfindingthiswhichwaslyingaboutandhadbeenneglectedbyeverybodyelseandwhenhesawithesaidthathewouldhavedonethesamehadhislotbeenfirstinsteadoflastandthathewasdelightedtohaveitandnotonlydidmenpassintoanimalsbutimustalsomentionthattherewereanimalstameandwildwhochangedintooneanotherandintocorrespondinghumannaturesthegoodintothegentleandtheevilintothesavageinallsortsofcombinationsallthesoulshadnowchosentheirlivesandtheywentintheorderoftheirchoicetolachesiswhosentwiththemthegeniuswhomtheyhadseverallychosentobetheguardianoftheirlivesandthefulfillerofthechoicethisgeniusledthesoulsfirsttoclothoanddrewthemwithintherevolutionofthespindleimpelledbyherhandthusratifyingthedestinyofeachandthenwhentheywerefastenedtothiscarriedthemtoatroposwhospunthethreadsandmadethemirreversiblewhencewithoutturningroundtheypassedbeneaththethroneofnecessityandwhentheyhadallpassedtheymarchedoninascorchingheattotheplainofforgetfulnesswhichwasabarrenwastedestituteoftreesandverdureandthentowardseveningtheyencampedbytheriverofunmindfulne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ragraphfyouagreethatthefoundationthetrademarkownerandanydistributorunderthisagreementwillnotbeliabletoyouforactualdirectindirectconsequentialpunitiveorincidentaldamagesevenifyougivenoticeofthepossibilityofsuchdamageflimitedrightofreplacementorrefundifyoudiscoveradefectinthiselectronicworkwithindaysofreceivingityoucanreceivearefundofthemoneyifanyyoupaidforitbysendingawrittenexplanationtothepersonyoureceivedtheworkfromifyoureceivedtheworkonaphysicalmediumyoumustreturnthemediumwithyourwrittenexplanationthepersonorentitythatprovidedyouwiththedefectiveworkmayelecttoprovideareplacementcopyinlieuofarefundifyoureceivedtheworkelectronicallythepersonorentityprovidingittoyoumaychoosetogiveyouasecondopportunitytoreceivetheworkelectronicallyinlieuofarefundifthesecondcopyisalsodefectiveyoumaydemandarefundinwritingwithoutfurtheropportunitiestofixtheproblemfexceptforthelimitedrightofreplacementorrefundsetforthinparagraphfthisworkisprovidedtoyouasiswithnootherwarrantiesofanykindexpressorimpliedincludingbutnotlimitedtowarrantiesofmerchantibilityorfitnessforanypurposefsomestatesdonotallowdisclaimersofcertainimpliedwarrantiesortheexclusionorlimitationofcertaintypesofdamagesifanydisclaimerorlimitationsetforthinthisagreementviolatesthelawofthestateapplicabletothisagreementtheagreementshallbeinterpretedtomakethemaximumdisclaimerorlimitationpermittedbytheapplicablestatelawtheinvalidityorunenforceabilityofanyprovisionofthisagreementshallnotvoidtheremainingprovisionsfindemnityyouagreetoindemnifyandholdthefoundationthetrademarkowneranyagentoremployeeofthefoundationanyoneprovidingcopiesofprojectgutenbergtmelectronicworksinaccordancewiththisagreementandanyvolunteersassociatedwiththeproductionpromotionanddistributionofprojectgutenbergtmelectronicworksharmlessfromallliabilitycostsandexpensesincludinglegalfeesthatarisedirectlyorindirectlyfromanyofthefollowingwhichyoudoorcausetooccuradistributionofthisoranyprojectgutenbergtmworkbalterationmodificationoradditionsordeletionstoanyprojectgutenbergtmworkandcanydefectyoucausesectioninformationaboutthemissionofprojectgutenbergtmprojectgutenbergtmissynonymouswiththefreedistributionofelectronicworksinformatsreadablebythewidestvarietyofcomputersincludingobsoleteoldmiddleagedandnewcomputersitexistsbecauseoftheeffortsofhundredsofvolunteersanddonationsfrompeopleinallwalksoflifevolunteersandfinancialsupporttoprovidevolunteerswiththeassistancetheyneediscriticaltoreachingprojectgutenbergtmsgoalsandensuringthattheprojectgutenbergtmcollectionwillremainfreelyavailableforgenerationstocomeintheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationwascreatedtoprovideasecureandpermanentfutureforprojectgutenbergtmandfuturegenerationstolearnmoreabouttheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationandhowyoureffortsanddonationscanhelpseesectionsandandthefoundationwebpageathttpwwwpglaforgsectioninformationabouttheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationtheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationisanonprofitceducationalcorporationorganizedunderthelawsofthestateofmississippiandgrantedtaxexemptstatusbytheinternalrevenueservicethefoundationseinorfederaltaxidentificationnumberisitscletterispostedathttppglaforgfundraisingcontributionstotheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationaretaxdeductibletothefullextentpermittedbyusfederallawsandyourstateslawsthefoundationsprincipalofficeislocatedatmelandrsfairbanksakbutitsvolunteersandemployeesarescatteredthroughoutnumerouslocationsitsbusinessofficeislocatedatnorthwestsaltlakecityutemailbusinesspglaforgemailcontactlinksanduptodatecontactinformationcanbefoundatthefoundationswebsiteandofficialpageathttppglaforgforadditionalcontactinformationdrgregorybnewbychiefexecutiveanddirectorgbnewbypglaforgsectioninformationaboutdonationstotheprojectgutenbergliteraryarchivefoundationprojectgutenbergtmdependsuponandcannotsurvivewithoutwidespreadpublicsupportanddonationstocarryoutitsmissionofincreasingthenumberofpublicdomainandlicensedworksthatcanbefreelydistributedinmachinereadableformaccessiblebythewidestarrayofequipmentincludingoutdatedequipmentmanysmalldonationstoareparticularlyimportanttomaintainingtaxexemptstatuswiththeirsthefoundationiscommittedtocomplyingwiththelawsregulatingcharitiesandcharitabledonationsinallstatesoftheunitedstatescompliancerequirementsarenotuniformandittakesaconsiderableeffortmuchpaperworkandmanyfeestomeetandkeepupwiththeserequirementswedonotsolicitdonationsinlocationswherewehavenotreceivedwrittenconfirmationofcompliancetosenddonationsordeterminethestatusofcomplianceforanyparticularstatevisithttppglaforgwhilewecannotanddonotsolicitcontributionsfromstateswherewehavenotmetthesolicitationrequirementsweknowofnoprohibitionagainstacceptingunsoliciteddonationsfromdonorsinsuchstateswhoapproachuswithofferstodonateinternationaldonationsaregratefullyacceptedbutwecannotmakeanystatementsconcerningtaxtreatmentofdonationsreceivedfromoutsidetheunitedstatesuslawsaloneswampoursmallstaffpleasechecktheprojectgutenbergwebpagesforcurrentdonationmethodsandaddressesdonationsareacceptedinanumberofotherwaysinc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